Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 8292 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #290 on: May 09, 2014, 02:22:04 AM »
And in your opinion... going by your past interactions with atheist members here... how well is that going for you do you think? For clarity's sake, by "invented", are you saying the counter arguments being used against you during any particular debate are fabricated in regards to the facts and evidence provided?

For me? I'm not doing it for me.
Counter arguments? The most time it is insults/mockeries, baseless assumptions (inventions) or more questions.
But the few times were the counter arguments are present is what keeps me going.

Quote from: Disciple of Sagan
Quote
Ps : I don't see much specific quotes/passages/sources supporting their beliefs.
"Their" meaning who exactly? Atheists? I'll wait for your clarification before addressing this.
Yes, atheist. I forgot to mention it sorry :(
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #291 on: May 09, 2014, 02:42:49 AM »
For me? I'm not doing it for me.

You stated "that it is important to defend my faith". It is your faith that is under scrutiny, is it not? If not for yourself, then who are you doing it for?

Quote
But the few times were the counter arguments are present is what keeps me going.

In relation to those few times, by "invented", are you saying the counter arguments being used against you during those specific encounters were fabricated in regards to the facts and evidence provided? And in these specific debates, your atheist opponents failed to provide quotes/links/sources to back up their facts and evidence?

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #292 on: May 09, 2014, 03:03:11 AM »
For me? I'm not doing it for me.

You stated "that it is important to defend my faith". It is your faith that is under scrutiny, is it not? If not for yourself, then who are you doing it for?
Mostly for others who wish to know more about God or confront my ideas. But, to be true, there is a part of me that is happy doing that, so in a way I'm doing it for me too :)
Quote
Quote
But the few times were the counter arguments are present is what keeps me going.
In relation to those few times, by "invented", are you saying the counter arguments being used against you during those specific encounters were fabricated in regards to the facts and evidence provided? And in these specific debates, your atheist opponents failed to provide quotes/links/sources to back up their facts and evidence?
To be frank, I don't remember atheist providing quotes/links/sources to back their counter arguments. I remember You did cite the Catechism but I don't think it was for a counter argument. Other cited the Bible, I heard about Noah at one point or another. They did it to ask a question not to counter my arguments.
Most of the time the quotes/links/sources where for insults/mockeries and out of subject.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #293 on: May 09, 2014, 04:33:12 AM »
You stated "that it is important to defend my faith". It is your faith that is under scrutiny, is it not? If not for yourself, then who are you doing it for?

Mostly for others who wish to know more about God or confront my ideas.

Your opinion about god differs in greater or lesser respect from the opinion of others we have had on this forum.

What would be your single best and compelling reason (argument, piece of evidence, whatever) for another member of this forum to accept your opinion over that of any other person's opinion about god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #294 on: May 09, 2014, 05:44:24 AM »
Yes I agree with you. But the statement is from the Bible and I'm really not the kind of guy that base his beliefs on words from the Bible.

You are really not the type of guy who should say anything on this forum. You should be banned.

That's not called for, Add Homonym.  Ease up.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #295 on: May 09, 2014, 07:13:41 AM »
Yes I agree with you. But the statement is from the Bible and I'm really not the kind of guy that base his beliefs on words from the Bible. There always is a context that change the meaning of words. Fortunately it does NOT change the fundamental idea. Heaven is good and hell is bad. No cloak and dagger here ;)

Here is were I can not get a straight answer because I don't think the religious people answer it after enough reflection on it.   

If you think about your religious faith at the most basic level if the bible is not fact, then why do you believe.  The bible is the root description of god and absent it you could not distinguish God from the natural world, coincidence and the universe.  At the most basic level if there were no bible we would not know any of the words of god because he only spoke to us 2000 + years ago.  With out the testimony of the bible you simply could not identify god. 

So if you do not believe the bible then why do you follow religion.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #296 on: May 09, 2014, 07:25:46 AM »
Roman Catholic Catachism

Quote
II. Inspiration and Truth of Sacred Scripture

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book". Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, "not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open (our) minds to understand the Scriptures."74

Church tradition and the Bible are supposed to the sources of theology, I though....
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #297 on: May 09, 2014, 10:20:23 AM »
To be frank, I don't remember atheist providing quotes/links/sources to back their counter arguments. I remember You did cite the Catechism but I don't think it was for a counter argument. Other cited the Bible, I heard about Noah at one point or another. They did it to ask a question not to counter my arguments.
Most of the time the quotes/links/sources where for insults/mockeries and out of subject.

Without going back through every conversation other members have had with you, I do recall with absolute certainty that besides myself quoting passages from the Bible such as during this debate...
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26619.msg612392.html#msg612392
...other members such as G-roll have made extensive use of quoting scripture in order to prove their point.

And while I myself have engaged in some slight mockery, if you notice it stopped the moment when you began to directly answer questions put forth to you. Your history of answering questions with a question or a metaphor I believe played a major role in this. Take it as constructive criticism.

Your opinion about god differs in greater or lesser respect from the opinion of others we have had on this forum.

What would be your single best and compelling reason (argument, piece of evidence, whatever) for another member of this forum to accept your opinion over that of any other person's opinion about god?

This was actually going to be my next question to you, but since Anfauglir stated it much more succinctly than I could, I, too would like to here your answer to this.

One thing I would like to add in addition to wheels and epidemic's valid points is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior (I am assuming he is due to the photo of him you use in your avatar)... and since the Bible (NT) is the primary source of everything that is known about Jesus... how do you reconcile the fact that you do not put much (if any) weight in the "Good Book"?

Wow... this actually was a coherent post I have just created. And all before my 1st morning cup of coffee. Stunned I am. :o
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #298 on: May 09, 2014, 10:34:56 AM »
I decided to rephrase my question a little, for the sake of clarity.

Yes I agree with you. But the statement is from the Bible and I'm really not the kind of guy that base his beliefs on words from the Bible. There always is a context that change the meaning of words. Fortunately it does NOT change the fundamental idea. Heaven is good and hell is bad. No cloak and dagger here ;)

Here is were I can not get a straight answer because I don't think the ala carte religious people answer it after enough reflection on it.   

If you think about your religious faith, at the most basic level, if the bible is not fact, then why do you believe?  The bible is the root description of god and absent it you could not distinguish God from the natural world, coincidence and the universe.  At the most basic level if there were no bible we would not know any of the words of god since he last spoke to us 2000 + years ago.  With out the testimony of the bible you simply could not identify god. 

So if you do not believe that the vast majority of the bible, then why do you follow a religion based upon it.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #299 on: May 09, 2014, 11:35:08 AM »
if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior (I am assuming he is due to the photo of him you use in your avatar)...

He doesn't. He accepts Robert Powell as his saviour.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JesusOfNazareth

Occult Blue Eyes: Perhaps the most notable thing about Powell's Jesus are his extremely clear blue eyes. He also never blinks. Barely blinks. He does blink once, and it's a "look away and you'll miss it" type thing. This technique was deliberate on the part of the director; he wanted to add an air of divinity to the character by calling attention to the actor's gorgeous eyes.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 11:37:20 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #300 on: May 09, 2014, 11:42:14 AM »
You can get the miniseries in 720p, if you want to see how many times he blinks.

Christians are pretty good uploaders, too. I didn't know that.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 11:51:37 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #301 on: May 09, 2014, 11:59:40 AM »
Off hand, do you know if he blinked during the flogging scene? I can't picture anyone not instinctively blinking in such a similar situation.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #302 on: May 09, 2014, 12:59:42 PM »
Your opinion about god differs in greater or lesser respect from the opinion of others we have had on this forum.
What would be your single best and compelling reason (argument, piece of evidence, whatever) for another member of this forum to accept your opinion over that of any other person's opinion about god?
My opinion stand in the face of logic, I'm not sure about the others, I have yet to meet one believer that disagree with my statements.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #303 on: May 09, 2014, 01:17:53 PM »
So if you do not believe the bible then why do you follow religion.
You should read the Apostles' CreedWiki
This is what I believe in. Nothing about the bible (more precisely the words in it) it's all about the understanding of the book.

1. I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. Under Pontius Pilate, He was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #304 on: May 09, 2014, 01:29:05 PM »
Without going back through every conversation other members have had with you, I do recall with absolute certainty that besides myself quoting passages from the Bible such as during this debate...
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26619.msg612392.html#msg612392
...other members such as G-roll have made extensive use of quoting scripture in order to prove their point.

And while I myself have engaged in some slight mockery, if you notice it stopped the moment when you began to directly answer questions put forth to you. Your history of answering questions with a question or a metaphor I believe played a major role in this. Take it as constructive criticism.

Ok. Quotes from the bible to counter my argument? Why should I take them into consideration? You believe that what is written in it is the truth? Word for word?

Quotes from the bible to illustrate why you have such or such question? Now I can agree :)

Quote
One thing I would like to add in addition to wheels and epidemic's valid points is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior (I am assuming he is due to the photo of him you use in your avatar)... and since the Bible (NT) is the primary source of everything that is known about Jesus... how do you reconcile the fact that you do not put much (if any) weight in the "Good Book"?
The bible is very important. It has it weight. For people it is the only reason why they converted. I put weight in the bible. Maybe less than you do :)
Of course, my beliefs are based on the bible but I believe in God, mostly.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #305 on: May 09, 2014, 01:34:45 PM »
I believe that the message from the Bible is true. All the words in it are here to help me understand this message. Beside the gospels, I believe that the bible is a story book, not an history one. (the stories in it are not factual)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #306 on: May 09, 2014, 01:49:19 PM »
Ok. Quotes from the bible to counter my argument? Why should I take them into consideration?

In our defense, we had at the time not yet been clued in as to views on the Bible, so it was a valid source to draw from in order to better put your personal beliefs in to the proper context.

Quote
You believe that what is written in it is the truth? Word for word?

I understand the point you are making, but since it is yourself who is assuming the stance of a believer in Christ in these conversations, does it not logically follow which parts of the Bible you do take as truth and which you take as fiction?

Quote
Quotes from the bible to illustrate why you have such or such question? Now I can agree :)

Yes, since Christianity (or a variation thereof) is what is being discussed, the Bible then becomes a relevant source to draw forth quotes from. Had we been debating evolution... such as has been done with Skeptic... I would have quoted from relevant sources such as scientific text books or papers authored by experts in that particular field in order to make or defend my case.

Quote
The bible is very important. It has it weight. For people it is the only reason why they converted. I put weight in the bible. Maybe less than you do :)
Of course, my beliefs are based on the bible but I believe in God, mostly.

Now this is an excellent example of the kind of response that helps myself and others to better understand your position; that, and how you have now provided two specific sources that have helped to shape your belief system (the Apostles' Creed and the Catechism of the Catholic Church).

Now it is possible to go on to the next step of being able to dissect and examine the various claims you have made so far (which I will have to leave for other members due to my having to get ready for work).

If you could, I am still extremely curious as to where you have learned that Satan and the Fallen Angels created hell in order to "go where God is not". I have read both of the sources you have provided but have found nothing on the subject. Thanks.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #307 on: May 09, 2014, 01:52:49 PM »
I believe that the message from the Bible is true. All the words in it are here to help me understand this message. Beside the gospels, I believe that the bible is a story book, not an history one. (the stories in it are not factual)

Just caught your reply after I had posted.

I only have a few minutes to spare, but am I reading you correctly that with the exception of where it deals with Jesus as being the Son of God and your lord and savior, the rest of the Bible should not be taken as a factual account of history? I do not want to make an assumption here.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #308 on: May 09, 2014, 02:40:14 PM »
I believe that the message from the Bible is true. All the words in it are here to help me understand this message. Beside the gospels, I believe that the bible is a story book, not an history one. (the stories in it are not factual)

Just caught your reply after I had posted.

I only have a few minutes to spare, but am I reading you correctly that with the exception of where it deals with Jesus as being the Son of God and your lord and savior, the rest of the Bible should not be taken as a factual account of history? I do not want to make an assumption here.
Correct.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #309 on: May 09, 2014, 03:51:34 PM »
I believe that the message from the Bible is true. All the words in it are here to help me understand this message. Beside the gospels, I believe that the bible is a story book, not an history one. (the stories in it are not factual)

Just caught your reply after I had posted.

I only have a few minutes to spare, but am I reading you correctly that with the exception of where it deals with Jesus as being the Son of God and your lord and savior, the rest of the Bible should not be taken as a factual account of history? I do not want to make an assumption here.
Correct.

Why the special pleading? What make you so sure that those parts might not be completely made up...like 13 million Jews do?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #310 on: May 09, 2014, 06:19:17 PM »
Why the special pleading? What make you so sure that those parts might not be completely made up...like 13 million Jews do?
Historians and Historicity of JesusWiki made me believe they where true history.
Plus there is the Meticulous Care in the Transmission of the Bible that confirmed this belief.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #311 on: May 09, 2014, 09:15:53 PM »
I believe that the message from the Bible is true. All the words in it are here to help me understand this message. Beside the gospels, I believe that the bible is a story book, not an history one. (the stories in it are not factual)

Just caught your reply after I had posted.

I only have a few minutes to spare, but am I reading you correctly that with the exception of where it deals with Jesus as being the Son of God and your lord and savior, the rest of the Bible should not be taken as a factual account of history? I do not want to make an assumption here.
Correct.

So, those parts of the Bible that deal with alleged historical events (such as Noah's Flood) are to be taken as stories imparting a moral lesson and not an actual event. Would this be an accurate statement?

I mention the (universal) Flood because it is somewhat an interest of mine reading about similar flood myths from various other cultures.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #312 on: May 09, 2014, 10:46:15 PM »
So, those parts of the Bible that deal with alleged historical events (such as Noah's Flood) are to be taken as stories imparting a moral lesson and not an actual event. Would this be an accurate statement?

Correct!
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #313 on: May 09, 2014, 11:38:14 PM »
So, those parts of the Bible that deal with alleged historical events (such as Noah's Flood) are to be taken as stories imparting a moral lesson and not an actual event. Would this be an accurate statement?

Correct!

Who would have thought that we would share common ground? :)

Now that we have reached an understanding, I would like your opinion on something that is relevant to the discussion at hand. The following is an extremely fascinating and, in my opinion, well thought-out observation by former member DTE (shout out to screw tape for bringing this to my attention):

Quote
This is why Christians cannot be allowed to disavow Noah, Jonah or other ridiculous stories and cling to their faith and belief in a risen, saving Christ: Jesus believed in them per the bible and the bible is the testimony of his resurrection. To paraphrase a silly bumpersticker: Know Noah, know Christ. No Noah, no Christ.


Lineage of Jesus
Quote
Luke 3:23b-24, 36-38 - He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph... the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


An historical Noah is necessary to the Christ of the Scripture ever existing, as the Bible names Noah as an ancestor of Jesus (Thanks to Atheist Devil for that one).

 
Jesus' use of Noah:
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Matthew 24: 36-39 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Quote
Luke 17:26-27 - "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The historical events of the ark are used to explain what will be the historical circumstance of the second coming. Notice the as it was... so it will be structure. What happened then shows what will happen then.

Noah as an example of saving faith and justification by faith
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Hebrews 11:1, 6-7 - Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see... And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.  By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Noah is going to be in heaven among the Christians with the same saving faith. (Notice also, Hebrews 11 is a litany of faithful Old Testament saints (including Abraham) each of whose historicity is demanded by Noah.

While he was dead, Christ preached to the people drowned in Noah's flood
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1 Peter 3:18-20 - For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Notice first, that Peter is discussing Christ's saving work.

After Christ was put to death, he preached by the Holy Spirit to those disobedient souls that drowned in Noah's flood. If there are no such souls, there is no reason to believe Christ was ever put to death.

God's destruction of sinners and preservation of the righteous demonstrated by Noah
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2 Peter 2: 4-5, 9 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; ... if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


God's real ability to rescue the godly and judge the wicked is evidenced in his historic, respective rescuing and judging of them. One such historical act of God which is adduced as a ground of God's faithfulness is Noah.

The flood is evidence of Christ's imminent return
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2 Peter 3:3-7 - First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Scoffers, mocking Christ's "failure" to come (when in reality, he tarries in grace-- read veres 8ff, if you're interested) are deliberately ignorant of the 'fact' of the flood, that is evidence of the same word bringing another imminent judgement upon the world.

Without the historicity of Noah, there is no Christianity. Christians who pretend otherwise are dishonest, whether to themselves or to others.

My question to you is this: what conclusion(s) do you draw from the above statement... Taking in to consideration that according to the quoted passages, Jesus himself believed that the Flood story as presented in the Bible was an actual event?

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #314 on: May 10, 2014, 12:09:37 AM »
My question to you is this: what conclusion(s) do you draw from the above statement... Taking in to consideration that according to the quoted passages, Jesus himself believed that the Flood story as presented in the Bible was an actual event?
The way I read it, Jesus believed the story to be true...not that is was an actual event. And when he speaks of his return, this too is a story (not an actual event).
I believe that Jesus will be back one day (at the "end of time"). But not exactly, word for word, the way described by the Bible.
Noah's existence or Abraham's existence is as important as Adam and Eve's existence. (Which, for me are just characters from a fictional story with real lessons)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #315 on: May 10, 2014, 01:07:49 AM »
The way I read it, Jesus believed the story to be true...not that is was an actual event. And when he speaks of his return, this too is a story (not an actual event).
I believe that Jesus will be back one day (at the "end of time"). But not exactly, word for word, the way described by the Bible.
Noah's existence or Abraham's existence is as important as Adam and Eve's existence. (Which, for me are just characters from a fictional story with real lessons)

Do you believe that each and every Bible passage quoted in DTE's post... all revolving around and propping up Jesus' nature as a divine being... are likewise fabricated statements and not to be taken literally?

Perhaps a better question is to ask you is with the exception of the Gospels, does the Bible contain any factual evidence relating to what Jesus supposedly said or did?

Edit

I'm heading home from work and will check back tomorrow.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 01:09:31 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #316 on: May 10, 2014, 01:21:30 AM »
Do you believe that each and every Bible passage quoted in DTE's post... all revolving around and propping up Jesus' nature as a divine being... are likewise fabricated statements and not to be taken literally?
Perhaps a better question is to ask you is with the exception of the Gospels, does the Bible contain any factual evidence relating to what Jesus supposedly said or did?

For me, only the Gospels contain actual events.
I won't challenge someone who wants to include the new testament. But, at the moment I don't have enough knowledge of it to make the assumption that all New Testament is about actual events. I will challenge anyone saying that the Old Testament is about actual events.
Also, what Jesus said or did as written in the Bible are actual events. (like the miracles and crucifixion and the a** whooping in the temple and sending the apostle to spread the good word...etc)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #317 on: May 10, 2014, 01:32:21 AM »
Why the special pleading? What make you so sure that those parts might not be completely made up...like 13 million Jews do?
Historians and Historicity of JesusWiki made me believe they where true history.
Plus there is the Meticulous Care in the Transmission of the Bible that confirmed this belief.

That's all pulled out of people's arses. There is a neutrality warning on the top of the article on the historicity. Of the two facts that scholars supposedly agree on, the baptism uses the criterion of embarrassment, which is as lame as an argument from silence. Then supposedly "most" scholars agree that there was a crucifixion. Those two points in a man's life, if true, allow for an awful load of people.

The second article, is a consensus of believers. The supposed "earliest copy" is A.D. 125, which is a travesty of logic. They are surely referring to Rylands P52, a minute fragment of John, which is dated by handwriting style (paleography), but contradicted by the codex paper it is written on. Dating by handwriting assumes that people would not write in a "ye olde" artificial antique style, and also that all the whole of the style is represented on the fragment. The is an example of one fragment being re-dated because someone found another small part that had a form of punctuation that was not used until a lot later. The second reason it's not sound to use the date 125AD, is that even if the fragment of John is valid, and came from a book which was exactly the same as modern John, there is an assumption that this book was not surrounded by copious fakes. Hurrah, that the church fathers chose a popular fiction of John. If the words on the P52, conflicted with John, they would just say "Oh well, it's just another fake pseudepigrapha", and nobody would worry about it. But if the words match with OUR John, they go HUZZAH!!! Our John must be genuine!!

The curious case of Tertullian's Adversus Marcion, is that the work starts with an assertion that there are many other variants floating around, and the church surprisingly has the definitive version. Why would it be so necessary to debunk Marcion so precisely, unless you needed to cover up evidence of what he was teaching about the gospel of Luke?  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03121.htm  It's is argued that you can reconstruct the gospel of Luke from Tertullian's attack on Marcion, but that would only be true, if Tertullian actually wrote it (~207AD). It seems a little strange to me that when you reconstruct Luke from Marcion's text, the parts he used were identical to the modern Luke. I don't think Tertullian offers any explanation of why Marcion ignored Acts (even though it's a part of Luke), or how the church came to have the modern Luke, and all of Marcion's Pauline epistles.

You can research all you like about the authorship of the Pauline epistles, but one thing you will never find is, how the church actually obtained them. No orthodoxy was actually paying attention to them, or quoting them, until Marcion displayed them, around 135AD to continue the then-dominant version of the Chrestos religion. The curious thing about them, is that they don't mention a physical Jesus, which is more consistent with Marcion's religion. Although much is said about Marcion, nothing is known, so when you read about him, it's all layers of re-quoted guesswork and orthodox attacks, passed off as information. The church contends that the Pauline epistles were a bunch of letters, "generally in circulation", prior to 100AD. How they back this up, is unclear to me. How they then obtained them in original form, and also with Acts, is also unclear to me. It's clear that they were created, edited and selected by Jesus-mythers, gnostics and other "heretics".

The Syrian churches used "the" Diatessaron by Tatian, and knew nothing about the epistles. Later, the Diatessaron was then deemed to be heresy, and then viciously attacked out of existence. Another version was written, later.

Another possible way we could know about the contents of the gospel is from the first Apology of Justin Martyr 150AD, which contains numerous quotes that can easily be attributed to Matthew, or sometimes Luke. An orthodox view is that JM was quoting the Diatessaron. When you read Tertullian's Apology it appears to start the same way as Justin's, which tips the reader off to the fact it's a genre, and none of these "Apologies" were ever sent to a Roman emperor. Potentially, it was written by a later Christian.  Eusebius lists Justin's Apology, but we suspect Eusebius of forging the Testimonium Flavianum.

So, no. Finding a fragment of one book, John, on codex paper, that you are too scared to carbon date, does not constitute good evidence that your particular faith is better than Marcion's, or any other variant of Christ. It does not really account for the history between 30AD and 180AD, which is more or less left up to church father's imaginations and creative writing skills.

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #318 on: May 10, 2014, 02:00:45 AM »
One last post before I head to bed.

The way I read it, Jesus believed the story to be true...not that is was an actual event.

This does not make sense. If he knew that Noah's Flood was purely a myth, then what was there about it he considered to be "true"?

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And when he speaks of his return, this too is a story (not an actual event).

Again, this does not make sense. "He" (Jesus)... speaking in the first person... had related the circumstances of his "second coming" while at the same time knowing that what he was saying was also a story? Am I reading this correctly?

Noah's existence or Abraham's existence is as important as Adam and Eve's existence. (Which, for me are just characters from a fictional story with real lessons)
[/quote]

How could Jesus have been descended from fictional characters?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.