Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 7997 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #261 on: May 08, 2014, 02:39:02 AM »
You know, technically, Luk is right in some ways.

1. The creation narrative in Genesis does not show god creating very much. In fact, though the word for create is used, the story is really about rearrangement of what is already there. 'The earth was void and without form' appears to be a world that is flooded. The story is about god shifting the water to get dry land and to get life going. Sure god builds a dome over the earth to pop the stars into and for heaven to sit on top, but it sounds very like things were there already and he just 'rearranged the furniture' so to speak.

2. However, one of the things with which we are all familiar is the idea of place. For example some people on the forum are in the USA and some in the UK. Some stars are in galaxies 13 billion light years away and so on. So, as far as we know, everything  has to be somewhere[1]. So is hell is s state where an individual is without god that individual must be in some place or other. Equally, those who are in heaven - they must also be in a location even if it is s state of being to believe knowledge of a god. To say that hell does not exist and it is a state of mind leads to two possibilities - that heaven too is a state of mind and not a real location or the concept is neither scriptural or logical.

So, Luk, let's see your argument to show that hell is not a real place. PLease quote from the bible and the catechism to illustrate your point.
 1. even if, in quantum mechanics its only a probability!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #262 on: May 08, 2014, 09:06:06 AM »
Just waking up with my 1st (but not last) morning cup of coffee, so while we are waiting for Luk's response, I thought I'd share the following quote that seems to fit the title of this thread:

Quote
“God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of p0ker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.”
 Terry Pratchett, Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch

Funny thing, the Forum rejected the word "p0ker". :?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #263 on: May 08, 2014, 09:06:40 AM »
Ok luk, you keep avoiding my questions, I know this is because everyone is having such fun with you so there is alot to answer.

You do not feel that, to allow someone to enter hell (what ever hell is  it is considered universally unpleasant and eternal) and not intervening to the best of your ability to insure understanding is inherently evil.  I am not talking about denying free will, but rather just informed consent. 

God's last recourse with out interfering with free will

God - "Epidemic, I am real and if you don't begin to follow my rules you will suffer in hell"
Epidemic - "how do I know you are not just a figment of my imagination"
God -  ZZZZAP "now you understand"
Epidemic - "Well now I understand and I really am not sure I want to hang out with you, what is the alternative"
God - zzzzzzap " now you understand what the alternative is"
Epidemic - free will response A "Man that sucks, I think I will choose to hang with you God that sounds alot better"
Epidemic - free will response B "Well from what I can see I think hell is preferable"


what you have right now is free will and limited information.

Real world question that parallels the information we have.

The TV gameshow is called "Religion,  Live or Die" Brought to you by the people who wrote produced "SAW"

The rules are simple

I know I am going to die, I am told I can go through door number 1 or door number 2, We can not see what door people choose because the choice is obscured from audience and host but we do know we hear screams of agony from some of the players.  Some people say door number 1 is better but they just heard from a friend of a friend who thinks door number 1 is better, but most people choose door number 2.  Ok now choose.

I could choose door number 1 because it has positive reviews, or I could go with the choice of most people.  Both doors have people who favor them based upon friend of a friend testimony who admittedly have not heard or seen evidence of which one is better than the other.

Ok now choose.

Lets sweeten the pot add to the mix The host stands in the hallway and he has set up the doors, you walk past him looking for any indication of which one is the better choice. He has a p0ker face and there is no reading him.  Was that twitch of his brow indicating door 1 or 2.  I grab for door number 1 knowing this host knows the answer.  Still I can not decide is that twitch of his eyebrow a sign that door 2 is a better choice?   If the host is there, is he kind if he does not give you the answer?  Is he neutral? Is he evil/wrong?



Part 2
What makes faith more valuable than informed consent?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 09:41:15 AM by epidemic »

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #264 on: May 08, 2014, 09:49:23 AM »
With a little inspiration from wheels I feel like helping ole Luk out with this one. Sort of...

Again, Rev 20:1
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So there is a pit and a lake of fire. And into this lake of fire death and hell were thrown. To Christians (I do believe correct me if I am wrong) death is not a place or a person. I think the Grim Reaper is actually a Celtic myth and not included in the Christian myth. Unless you are talking about a horse man but that makes no since... although that would be par for the course.
Anywho Rev 20:13 says death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them. I have never visited a place called death. So perhaps if you perform some Christian apologetic acrobats and maybe a floor routine or pummel horse... Could this be biblical evidence for hell as a mental concept similar to what Luk describes? 

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #265 on: May 08, 2014, 10:16:08 AM »
Interesting quotes, G-Roll. I think the point here is that -

Death 'takes' people and holds them - figuratively I suspect as the dead remain dead (in death as it were) until 'woken' from death according to the passage you quoted. So I think here death means a concept rather than an actual thing separate from the people who have experienced death. Throwing death into the fire is a pretty way of saying that death is abolished so that the chosen live for ever.

Hell could well be considered in the same way and merely and expression of what Luk said - people separate from god, but taking other references together from Jesus saying and the letters in the NT I think we have to conclude that hell is a real place - a real object even - if it can be thrown into the fire.

I think it is clear from the NT texts as well as early church history that the Christians were certainly in the religion to get to heaven and not hell. Of course, since those times, preachers have held their flocks together by threatening them with hell, too, so it re-enforces the idea that hell, from the beginning was seen as a real place.

Heaven Which brings us back to the  ultimate place where people apparently want to go - heaven. Jesus talks about it a lot and again, from the letters in the NT it is clear that people thought it was  real place to get to after death and many let themselves be martyred as they were told that got one straight to heaven[1].

Ultimately, though, one has to decide if one believes this or not. However one thing is pretty clear - Heaven and Hell  are a matched pair of opposites so saying one doesn't exist for some reason is bound to explain, too, that the other one doesn't exist either.
 1. The letters of Ignatius (C100CE) which he wrote on his way to all the various congregation on the way to Rome illustrate this rather well. Ignatius tells his readers how keen he is for the lions to bite him etc.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online Nam

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #266 on: May 08, 2014, 10:31:54 AM »
Funny thing, the Forum rejected the word "p0ker". :?

Next time try "poke her".

;)

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #267 on: May 08, 2014, 01:14:17 PM »
what if God is real and he is actually only able to feed off/devour of willing souls trained for years to be mindless subserviant soul food ?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #268 on: May 08, 2014, 01:16:22 PM »
what if God is real and he is actually only able to feed off/devour of willing souls trained for years to be mindless subservient soul food ?

Interesting thought! Maybe he needs to charge up his enchanted weapons with soul gems and needs human souls for his black soul gem[1]!

 1. Refers to The Elder Scrolls - Skyrim
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #269 on: May 08, 2014, 01:20:50 PM »
what if God is real and he is actually only able to feed off/devour of willing souls trained for years to be mindless subservient soul food ?

Interesting thought! Maybe he needs to charge up his enchanted weapons with soul gems and needs human souls for his black soul gem[1]!
 1. Refers to The Elder Scrolls - Skyrim

If we were cattle for the slaughter It would be best to stock the pool with docile animals and those who think would be destroyed or dealt with harshly.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 01:29:54 PM by epidemic »

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #270 on: May 08, 2014, 01:28:23 PM »
what if God is real and he is actually only able to feed off/devour of willing souls trained for years to be mindless subserviant soul food ?

Then I guess I'll find out if my soul really does taste like chicken. :)

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #271 on: May 08, 2014, 01:46:41 PM »
what if God is real and he is actually only able to feed off/devour of willing souls trained for years to be mindless subservient soul food ?

Interesting thought! Maybe he needs to charge up his enchanted weapons with soul gems and needs human souls for his black soul gem[1]!
 1. Refers to The Elder Scrolls - Skyrim
You've got a soul gem?

You might want to avoid this guy:
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #272 on: May 08, 2014, 06:47:21 PM »
I noticed that while "Gehenna" has been written with a capital "G", making it a proper noun, while "heaven" and "hell" are both in lower case. Am I correct in assuming that Gehenna is an actual place whereas both heaven and hell are "states" of being?
I am already familiar with "Gehenna" in the historical sense. What is it's meaning in regards to your faith?
Since we never found it, it would be a state too. If one day we find it, I will agree with it to be a place as it doesn't change much in my faith.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #273 on: May 08, 2014, 06:49:44 PM »
So, Luk, let's see your argument to show that hell is not a real place. PLease quote from the bible and the catechism to illustrate your point.
Well did you read What Sagan wrote?
Ah! Here it is:
From http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
Quote
1033 613: To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
This is what you have been describing in regards to Hell being a "state", yes?
Isn't that answer enough?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #274 on: May 08, 2014, 07:01:50 PM »
Ok luk, you keep avoiding my questions, I know this is because everyone is having such fun with you so there is alot to answer.
[...]
Please quote them. I'm having trouble finding which question of yours I am avoiding.

Quote
Still I can not decide is that twitch of his eyebrow a sign that door 2 is a better choice?   If the host is there, is he kind if he does not give you the answer?  Is he neutral? Is he evil/wrong?

The host (who knows the correct answer) gives you the answer. You have to chose to listen to him or not.

Quote
What makes faith more valuable than informed consent?
Nothing much. When your other half tells you "do you trust me?" Is it better to ask why? (to have a informed consent) or not?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #275 on: May 08, 2014, 08:46:19 PM »
"Have to choose"

There you go folks. Accept Christ and start listening to disembodied voices.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #276 on: May 08, 2014, 11:27:16 PM »
Since we never found it, it would be a state too. If one day we find it, I will agree with it to be a place as it doesn't change much in my faith.

Going by the following passage from the link you have provided, the manner in how it is worded would lead one to believe it is a physical location where the body is affected along with the soul. I have bolded the relevant sections:

Quote
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

It does not seem feasible to be "thrown" in to a state, would you concur?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #277 on: May 08, 2014, 11:42:45 PM »
Since we never found it, it would be a state too. If one day we find it, I will agree with it to be a place as it doesn't change much in my faith.

Going by the following passage from the link you have provided, the manner in how it is worded would lead one to believe it is a physical location where the body is affected along with the soul. I have bolded the relevant sections:

Quote
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

It does not seem feasible to be "thrown" in to a state, would you concur?

Yes I agree with you. But the statement is from the Bible and I'm really not the kind of guy that base his beliefs on words from the Bible. There always is a context that change the meaning of words. Fortunately it does NOT change the fundamental idea. Heaven is good and hell is bad. No cloak and dagger here ;)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #278 on: May 08, 2014, 11:51:38 PM »
There is another interpretation that the fire is eternal/aeonian, and that when thrown into it, you are consumed in a finite period of time.

Matt 10 says "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12 says "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
                      "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16 says that you burn in hades, and want people to go back and tell your relatives.

Revelation says you get a second death in the lake of fire, after a lot of bother.

Old Testament does not mention hell, because it's not part of the Jewish religion.

Mark 8 says "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
This implies that your soul can get lost, rather than burn with you.

The statements in both Mark and Matthew, that you should pluck out your eyes, and chop off your dick, implies that hell is very painful, and can be felt for some large period.

To settle this matter, you should interview the people who invented hell.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #279 on: May 08, 2014, 11:52:39 PM »
Yes I agree with you. But the statement is from the Bible and I'm really not the kind of guy that base his beliefs on words from the Bible.

You are really not the type of guy who should say anything on this forum. You should be banned.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #280 on: May 08, 2014, 11:59:35 PM »
My time online is limited at the moment as I am posting  from work, so please forgive me if I pose another question in advance of your responding to my other queries.

We have established both in our conversation and through your other interactions on other threads that you believe both heaven and hell (and possibly Gehenna) are neither physical nor spiritual locations, but "states of being". Would it logically follow that there is no traveling or destination involved for the soul since there is no location to travel to at the moment of death?

Is my understanding of your belief correct?

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #281 on: May 09, 2014, 12:10:34 AM »
Yes I agree with you. But the statement is from the Bible and I'm really not the kind of guy that base his beliefs on words from the Bible. There always is a context that change the meaning of words.

The statement is from the link you provided, so I assumed you would agree with the passage I quoted. 

If you do not base your beliefs on the Bible, then where else (besides the Catholic Catechism) do you draw your faith from?

For instance, I could not find anywhere in the link you provided that mentioned how Satan and the fallen angels created the "state" of hell as you have previously stated. What is the source from which you have gathered this information from, and is it considered cannon according to the Catholic Church?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #282 on: May 09, 2014, 12:14:32 AM »
My time online is limited at the moment as I am posting  from work, so please forgive me if I pose another question in advance of your responding to my other queries.
We have established both in our conversation and through your other interactions on other threads that you believe both heaven and hell (and possibly Gehenna) are neither physical nor spiritual locations, but "states of being". Would it logically follow that there is no traveling or destination involved for the soul since there is no location to travel to at the moment of death?
Is my understanding of your belief correct?
Not exactly. I believe that our soul won't be limited by space or time anymore[1]. (it will be everywhere in every state simultaneously) It is something I have trouble grasping as I don't have any reference of what it is to "live out of time".
 1. this is my answer to Sagan, please do not use it out of this context
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #283 on: May 09, 2014, 12:23:08 AM »
The statement is from the link you provided, so I assumed you would agree with the passage I quoted. 
If you do not base your beliefs on the Bible, then where else (besides the Catholic Catechism) do you draw your faith from?
For instance, I could not find anywhere in the link you provided that mentioned how Satan and the fallen angels created the "state" of hell as you have previously stated. What is the source from which you have gathered this information from, and is it considered cannon according to the Catholic Church?
My faith mostly comes from experience, people I met, movies I saw, testimonies I've heard and discussion like this one where people like you force me to find sources.
It's a little bit like love. I did read about love but most of the thing I believe about love is not from one book of reference. Even if all the information needed is on the Internet.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #284 on: May 09, 2014, 12:24:16 AM »
If you do not base your beliefs on the Bible, then where else (besides the Catholic Catechism) do you draw your faith from?

Look at his avatar; you are talking to Jesus, directly.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #285 on: May 09, 2014, 12:27:35 AM »
My faith mostly comes from experience, people I met, movies I saw, testimonies I've heard and discussion like this one where people like you force me to find sources.
It's a little bit like love. I did read about love but most of the thing I believe about love is not from one book of reference. Even if all the information needed is on the Internet.

In other words, you have, like the NT writers, concocted your story from popular opinion.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #286 on: May 09, 2014, 12:51:52 AM »
I do thank you, Lukvance, for actually directly responding to my specific questions. In order to be able to discuss your personal belief system, we first must understand where this belief system (primarily) originates from. I do hope you now understand why other members (myself included) would become frustrated while attempting to draw forth this information from you.

This said, I do agree with AH's conclusion. Unlike almost every other theist who has come here to the Forum, they were at least able to provide specific quotes/passages/sources to add context to their claims. My observation that you are "a denomination of one" now appears to be correct in that your faith does not directly stem from a singular known and well-established source (such as the Bible), but multiple sources that one must conclude are not supported or verified by any particular religion.

I'm afraid this ultimately does not bode well for you in regards to your attempt to defend your particular faith.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #287 on: May 09, 2014, 01:13:45 AM »
I do thank you, Lukvance, for actually directly responding to my specific questions. In order to be able to discuss your personal belief system, we first must understand where this belief system (primarily) originates from. I do hope you now understand why other members (myself included) would become frustrated while attempting to draw forth this information from you.

This said, I do agree with AH's conclusion. Unlike almost every other theist who has come here to the Forum, they were at least able to provide specific quotes/passages/sources to add context to their claims. My observation that you are "a denomination of one" now appears to be correct in that your faith does not directly stem from a singular known and well-established source (such as the Bible), but multiple sources that one must conclude are not supported or verified by any particular religion.

I'm afraid this ultimately does not bode well for you in regards to your attempt to defend your particular faith.
So... that's how people defending Love feels like :)
Still, I think it is important to defend my faith by answering all those burning questions that most of atheist have and do not find convincing enough (even if you give them specific quotes/passages/sources).
Answering in a way that there should be no other possible answer than the one the believer give them and the one they invented.
Ps : I don't see much specific quotes/passages/sources supporting their beliefs.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #288 on: May 09, 2014, 01:49:07 AM »
Still, I think it is important to defend my faith by answering all those burning questions that most of atheist have and do not find convincing enough (even if you give them specific quotes/passages/sources).

I'm not aware of any atheists with burning questions about your god/love dealy. If you know of any, let us know. Name names.

There is no god. That is a given in my world. Yes, I have love in my world, but it comes from other origins. Human ones. Which are a far better source than the god thing, because the god you claim as your own is a dick. Once you toss hell into the mix, (the ultimate ego trip, the POV you and many other christian varieties have that you (or they) are so right that anyone who disagrees with gets to spend all of eternity suffering immeasurably for not kissing your ass, a position you guys revel in) is proof that there is no love involved with your god. His story can only conjure up threats and demands. There is no love there at all.

Burning curiosity? I think not. Burning disgust, surrounding the idea that anyone would believe such tripe. Yea, that we've got.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #289 on: May 09, 2014, 01:58:45 AM »
So... that's how people defending Love feels like :)
Still, I think it is important to defend my faith by answering all those burning questions that most of atheist have and do not find convincing enough (even if you give them specific quotes/passages/sources).

Oh, by no means am I suggesting you stop attempting to defend your particular beliefs. I was merely making an observation as to your chances of successfully defending them here, on this particular Forum.

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Answering in a way that there should be no other possible answer than the one the believer give them and the one they invented.

And in your opinion... going by your past interactions with atheist members here... how well is that going for you do you think? For clarity's sake, by "invented", are you saying the counter arguments being used against you during any particular debate are fabricated in regards to the facts and evidence provided?

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Ps : I don't see much specific quotes/passages/sources supporting their beliefs.

"Their" meaning who exactly? Atheists? I'll wait for your clarification before addressing this.
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