Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 11249 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #203 on: May 07, 2014, 01:38:25 PM »
Certainly, according to Genesis, god did not want the pair to eat of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil so he wanted to deny them the only thing that could help them avoid sin! I think god meets the criteria of and evil dictator, really.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #204 on: May 07, 2014, 02:06:10 PM »
I would ask: why is it so important to you that God can only be Good? Surely, if God is great, and understands the point of the universe, he can be as evil as he likes to be.

Is it important to you that God is good, because the Bible says that at certain points? The Bible says lots of things that you ignore, so why is this one important to you?

Because it is his definition. (God is the "bestest") I wouldn't believe in a lesser god.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #205 on: May 07, 2014, 02:10:01 PM »
I would ask: why is it so important to you that God can only be Good? Surely, if God is great, and understands the point of the universe, he can be as evil as he likes to be.

Is it important to you that God is good, because the Bible says that at certain points? The Bible says lots of things that you ignore, so why is this one important to you?

Because it is his definition. (God is the "bestest") I wouldn't believe in a lesser god.

Remind me, please, where the definition comes from. It certainly appears that god is said to have created everything which would have to include the bad as well as the good. The passage from Isaiah mentioned above even has god saying that he created evil. You had better admit this is the case or explain why the Isaiah passage should be ignored.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2014, 02:12:48 PM »
Once again, I seem to have missed some of the fun! However, I wonder if we could get Luk to settle for the following.

In the analogy we have -

parent = god
child = humanity
poisoned room = hell

I can agree with that much. All depends on what you do with it.
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Given that god is supposed to have created everything, he, by definition, created hell, the devil and the demons that assist the devil with the punishments that afflict those in hell. No, Luk, there's no getting around this one - your god created 'everything' so it has to include hell - the 'poisoned room' in the analogy.
I disagree. God created all does not mean he created hell. Hell was created by the fallen angels.

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Now, unlike the room in the analogy - a place a child might easily walk into - god has set down the definitions of who will and will not enter hell but he made a mess of telling everything to people as even the bible is no means clear and, of course, his dictation of the Qur'an means a whole load more definitions which conflict with the bible. So unlike the 'poisoned room', people are going to be unclear as to what they have to do to avoid that 'poisoned room'.
"Follow me". It is pretty clear from my point of view.
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Oh, and Luk, no changing the analogy when it starts to fail to get your point across. We are sticking with the original analogy.

You can make your own analogy (or use epidemic's). It doesn't mean that I will agree with it if it is flawed.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2014, 02:22:07 PM »
Luk when you had your personal experience of god how do you know it is/was yaweh specifically and not some other god or deity?
Short answer? I knew that I was happier than ever before in my life and since then couldn't get more from any other but him.
Then again it might have been a different God than the one that my fellow Christian believe in but we all agreed on the Apostles CreedWiki.
I had this "revelation" while an reenacting of Jesus's crucifixion was taking place and he screamed before he died.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2014, 02:25:06 PM »
So there must be things in the Universe not made by God. Who made them then? A different God?
Or shall we go with the more simple conclusion: this god crap is made up.
Neither. Most things in the Universe are not really made. They are transformed :)[1]
 1. "Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything transforms."
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #209 on: May 07, 2014, 02:30:53 PM »
End of argument...

Sorry.  You do not get to make decrees like that.
I agree. I was following nogodsforme lead.
Case closed.
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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #210 on: May 07, 2014, 02:57:26 PM »
I disagree. God created all does not mean he created hell. Hell was created by the fallen angels.

Whoa!!

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Why in the world would you think Satan would build his own prison/torture chamber? Or do you think hell is the devils address? Do you think Satan is in hell now?

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #211 on: May 07, 2014, 03:07:36 PM »
I disagree. God created all does not mean he created hell. Hell was created by the fallen angels.

Whoa!!

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

...And throw in a little Peter 2:4 for good measure:
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For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

I've spent the past hour online searching in vain for any mention or source that states that the angels created Hell. So, I am also curious as to how you came to this conclusion, Lukvance.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #212 on: May 07, 2014, 03:12:11 PM »
God created all does not mean he created hell. Hell was created by the fallen angels.

Redefining the word "all", OR giving the fallen angels power over god.  :o

Blaspheme much?

"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #213 on: May 07, 2014, 03:13:20 PM »
I read once that man and angels created hell by way of angels being cast out of heaven and man being disobedient. Pretty much: being away from Biblegod is being in hell. Reminds me of a Stargate SG-1 episode where they couldn't look away from the light of a machine and when they did they got really sick, and could die.

So, apparently to Catholics (and perhaps Muslims) Biblegod is a narcotic and not getting your fix will kill you.

;)

-Nam
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #214 on: May 07, 2014, 03:22:41 PM »
Pretty much: being away from Biblegod is being in hell.;)

-Nam

I actually was just reading this on a Christian answer site not more than 15 minutes ago. One of the posters was claiming that "Hell" is not a location, but a state of being created upon death for denying God's love and grace. This, ahem, "theory" fails to take in to consideration how this applies to Satan and the fallen angels who cannot die.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #215 on: May 07, 2014, 03:25:55 PM »
Pretty much: being away from Biblegod is being in hell.;)

-Nam

I actually was just reading this on a Christian answer site not more than 15 minutes ago. One of the posters was claiming that "Hell" is not a location, but a state of being created upon death for denying God's love and grace. This, ahem, "theory" fails to take in to consideration how this applies to Satan and the fallen angels who cannot die.

That, and the Bible states Biblegod created hell.

-Nam
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #216 on: May 07, 2014, 03:51:55 PM »
That, and the Bible states Biblegod created hell.

Yup. Which is why I am extremely curious as to what is Luk's source on the subject.
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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #217 on: May 07, 2014, 03:56:34 PM »
I think he is making it up as he goes. I got a feeling he hasn’t read much of his bible.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #218 on: May 07, 2014, 03:58:09 PM »
That, and the Bible states Biblegod created hell.

Yup. Which is why I am extremely curious as to what is Luk's source on the subject.

The thumb up his ass?

-Nam
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #219 on: May 07, 2014, 04:01:51 PM »
Yup. Which is why I am extremely curious as to what is Luk's source on the subject.

The thumb up his ass?

You're giving his thumb way too much credit. ;)

I think he is making it up as he goes. I got a feeling he hasn’t read much of his bible.

I noticed how even when he added this footnote ""Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything transforms." he failed to provide a source.

As I stated in another post, I think he might be a denomination of one.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #220 on: May 07, 2014, 04:02:10 PM »
Once again, I seem to have missed some of the fun! However, I wonder if we could get Luk to settle for the following.

In the analogy we have -

parent = god
child = humanity
poisoned room = hell

I can agree with that much. All depends on what you do with it.
Quote
Given that god is supposed to have created everything, he, by definition, created hell, the devil and the demons that assist the devil with the punishments that afflict those in hell. No, Luk, there's no getting around this one - your god created 'everything' so it has to include hell - the 'poisoned room' in the analogy.
I disagree. God created all does not mean he created hell. Hell was created by the fallen angels.

OK, 'all' doesn't mean 'all' it means what you what to save for god to have created. That doesn't do! Can you quote from your bible where this is said? Creating is something that is reserved for god, so far as I know, so that if any exists it must have been created by him. Apart from attaching the Trinity to creation, I don't think I recall anyone else in the bible creating anything. Prove me wrong!

Quote
Quote
Now, unlike the room in the analogy - a place a child might easily walk into - god has set down the definitions of who will and will not enter hell but he made a mess of telling everything to people as even the bible is no means clear and, of course, his dictation of the Qur'an means a whole load more definitions which conflict with the bible. So unlike the 'poisoned room', people are going to be unclear as to what they have to do to avoid that 'poisoned room'.
"Follow me". It is pretty clear from my point of view.

If the only text said 'follow me' you would be quite correct but, sadly, that is not the case. You have picked a verse from the bible and ignore lots of others - the 613 commandments in the Torah for example - and jumped to one verse. In fact the story is, as I'm sure you know, much more complicated and that's juts with the bible. We also have to contend with the other religions which, though you will just say these are false religions, have been allowed by god to develop and it seems that he though only the people of Israel were worth getting information to (although rather garbled) and the people in Mecca.

perhaps you would comment on that.
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Quote
Oh, and Luk, no changing the analogy when it starts to fail to get your point across. We are sticking with the original analogy.

You can make your own analogy (or use epidemic's). It doesn't mean that I will agree with it if it is flawed.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #221 on: May 07, 2014, 04:39:51 PM »
I'll have to agree with what Disciple of Sagan read in the christian answer site. Hell is not a location, but a state of being created upon denying God's love and grace.
When Satan chose self, he went into that state.
Like G-Roll underlined "due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence." Same goes for hell.
Plus, I believe that :
Most things in the Universe are not really made. They are transformed :)[1]
 1. "Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything transforms."
It is my answer to God creating bad things. He did create everything or more exactly the building blocks :)
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #222 on: May 07, 2014, 04:45:31 PM »
I'll have to agree with what Disciple of Sagan read in the christian answer site. Hell is not a location, but a state of being created upon denying God's love and grace.
When Satan chose self, he went into that state.
Like G-Roll underlined "due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence." Same goes for hell.
Plus, I believe that :
Most things in the Universe are not really made. They are transformed :)[1]
 1. "Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything transforms."
It is my answer to God creating bad things. He did create everything or more exactly the building blocks :)

Do you find it odd that you slightly change your "facts" when evidence brought in contradicts your initial statement yet you then come in and twist it around as if you never actually changed your initial position?

Do you really believe we're so incompetent not to notice you doing that?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #223 on: May 07, 2014, 04:46:18 PM »
I'll have to agree with what Disciple of Sagan read in the christian answer site. Hell is not a location, but a state of being created upon denying God's love and grace.
When Satan chose self, he went into that state.

First, what source do you draw from to have reached this conclusion?

Second, if it (Hell) is a "state of being", then how could Satan and the fallen angels have been "cast down"/"bound in chains" by God in Hell as repeatedly stated in the Bible?

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #224 on: May 07, 2014, 04:49:49 PM »
I'll have to agree with what Disciple of Sagan read in the christian answer site. Hell is not a location, but a state of being created upon denying God's love and grace.
When Satan chose self, he went into that state.
Like G-Roll underlined "due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence." Same goes for hell.
Plus, I believe that :
Most things in the Universe are not really made. They are transformed :)[1]
 1. "Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything transforms."
It is my answer to God creating bad things. He did create everything or more exactly the building blocks :)

Blasphemy it is. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #225 on: May 07, 2014, 04:50:05 PM »
I noticed how even when he added this footnote ""Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything transforms." he failed to provide a source.
I didn't feel the need to provide a source for something that I believe is common knowledge.
Are you saying that you believe that things are created out of nowhere/nothing?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #226 on: May 07, 2014, 04:52:19 PM »
Do you find it odd that you slightly change your "facts" when evidence brought in contradicts your initial statement yet you then come in and twist it around as if you never actually changed your initial position?

Do you really believe we're so incompetent not to notice you doing that?

I really think this is the first time Lukvance has given his beliefs any serious thought and he himself doesn't notice that he's doing that.

He's still at the "what I believe is true, therefore, how can I answer this question to ensure that remains the case" stage.  Consistency be damned.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #227 on: May 07, 2014, 04:55:22 PM »
I'll have to agree with what Disciple of Sagan read in the christian answer site. Hell is not a location, but a state of being created upon denying God's love and grace.
When Satan chose self, he went into that state.
First, what source do you draw from to have reached this conclusion?

I agreed with what someone else said. It makes sense to me. Not to you?

Quote
Second, if it (Hell) is a "state of being", then how could Satan and the fallen angels have been "cast down"/"bound in chains" by God in Hell as repeatedly stated in the Bible?
Figure of speech. We shouldn't take the Bible word for word. I believe It is more deeper than that.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #228 on: May 07, 2014, 04:55:54 PM »
Do you find it odd that you slightly change your "facts" when evidence brought in contradicts your initial statement yet you then come in and twist it around as if you never actually changed your initial position?

Do you really believe we're so incompetent not to notice you doing that?

I really think this is the first time Lukvance has given his beliefs any serious thought and he himself doesn't notice that he's doing that.

He's still at the "what I believe is true, therefore, how can I answer this question to ensure that remains the case" stage.  Consistency be damned.

Perhaps, but if you read the above: he never actually changed his position but made it sound like he did which either he repeatedly does that on purpose and thinks us too incompetent to notice or he's an idiot savant.

-Nam
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #229 on: May 07, 2014, 04:58:09 PM »
Do you find it odd that you slightly change your "facts" when evidence brought in contradicts your initial statement yet you then come in and twist it around as if you never actually changed your initial position?

Do you really believe we're so incompetent not to notice you doing that?
I really think this is the first time Lukvance has given his beliefs any serious thought and he himself doesn't notice that he's doing that.
He's still at the "what I believe is true, therefore, how can I answer this question to ensure that remains the case" stage.  Consistency be damned.

I'm sorry. Where was I inconsistent again?
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #230 on: May 07, 2014, 04:59:20 PM »
[I didn't feel the need to provide a source for something that I believe is common knowledge.

Humor me. Source, please.

Quote
Are you saying that you believe that things are created out of nowhere/nothing?

Oh, no you don't.

One: you do not get to ask questions while avoiding answering mine.

Two: This little shtick of yours of inventing talking points that I have never made or alluded to is wearing extremely thin.



The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #231 on: May 07, 2014, 04:59:42 PM »
Figure of speech. We shouldn't take the Bible word for word. I believe It is more deeper than that

Rev 20:1
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I believe this is what Disciple of Sagan was talking about. Sounds rather physical to me.
Should we take John 3:16 as a figure of speech as well?