Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 9481 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #174 on: May 06, 2014, 04:58:14 PM »
p.s. You have the knowledge that the crockoduck will be happy if
The crocoduck will be happy when Kirk Cameron opens a jar of peanut butter with a banana while parachuting.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Online Jag

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #175 on: May 06, 2014, 05:01:18 PM »
^^^Wow, so will I!
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #176 on: May 06, 2014, 05:02:13 PM »
what if the crockoduck had no bread to make a peanut butter and banana sandwich? Would you let him build a door to let him escape or would you take away his banana but give him some bread? What if his mom built a kitchen out of wedlock?

p.s. you have the knowledge that crockoducks

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #177 on: May 06, 2014, 05:04:04 PM »
Guys lets stop mocking him and his ideas. I know they sound absurd but I want to continue the discussion and not drive him away.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #178 on: May 06, 2014, 05:09:12 PM »
It's not a discussion anymore. It's an ever changing analogy game that he can twist and design until he can force someone to agree with him.
I don’t think he is a troll but it is a very dishonest tactic. In my opinion it should be mocked.

Anyway, enjoy the game.... I mean "discussion''

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #179 on: May 06, 2014, 05:13:23 PM »
^^ He gets it.

Quid pro quo, Doctor Lecter. Quid pro quo....
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #180 on: May 06, 2014, 05:53:20 PM »
The sign of a good analogy (if I may say so myself) is that you don't have to keep modifying it to try to make your point. People can get it as is, and agree or not with the point you are trying to make. If you have to change the parameters each time someone brings up a flaw in your argument, you have a bad analogy. Or the point you are making sux. Or both.

Lukvance, face it. You cannot make someone who fills a room full of poison and lets their child go into it a good person. You just can't. No matter how you tweak the parameters--"Well what if the parent told a neighbor to warn the kid, and the kid did not listen, what then? Okay how about the parent told the kid's best friend?  Or how about the parent told Batman to warn the kid, and the child still went into the room?"

Sorry. Still a bad parent, if they did not stop the kid, or not do the poison room in the first place. Poison room leads to dead child=bad parent.  If the parent who put the poison in the room and let the child go in is supposed to be like god letting bad things happen to the humans he created[1]then that is a bad effing god. Case closed.

You keep going, "Well, yeah, okay, maybe Batman is cooler than Spiderman, but what if Spiderman had Superman's powers, huh? What if the parent told this supercool Spiderman and he warned the kid, and the kid still went into the poison room?" when someone shows your argument to be flawed. You sound like 4-year-old. And not in a good way.
 1. like not saving them from the hell he created because he does not want to violate "free will"
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #181 on: May 06, 2014, 06:50:54 PM »
The sign of a good analogy (if I may say so myself) is that you don't have to keep modifying it to try to make your point. People can get it as is, and agree or not with the point you are trying to make. If you have to change the parameters each time someone brings up a flaw in your argument, you have a bad analogy. Or the point you are making sux. Or both.

Lukvance, face it. You cannot make someone who fills a room full of poison and lets their child go into it a good person. You just can't. No matter how you tweak the parameters--"Well what if the parent told a neighbor to warn the kid, and the kid did not listen, what then? Okay how about the parent told the kid's best friend?  Or how about the parent told Batman to warn the kid, and the child still went into the room?"

Sorry. Still a bad parent, if they did not stop the kid, or not do the poison room in the first place. Poison room leads to dead child=bad parent.  If the parent who put the poison in the room and let the child go in is supposed to be like god letting bad things happen to the humans he created[1]then that is a bad effing god. Case closed.

You keep going, "Well, yeah, okay, maybe Batman is cooler than Spiderman, but what if Spiderman had Superman's powers, huh? What if the parent told this supercool Spiderman and he warned the kid, and the kid still went into the poison room?" when someone shows your argument to be flawed. You sound like 4-year-old. And not in a good way.
 1. like not saving them from the hell he created because he does not want to violate "free will"
All I'm saying is that God cannot make something evil. (He can but won't) It is part of his definition. So he wasn't the one who made the room full of poison. That's it. End of argument...
Care to use a better analogy?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #182 on: May 06, 2014, 07:22:06 PM »
Clarify this just really fast.

Is the parent god?
Is the room hell?
Is the kid a representstion of humanity?
What is the door?
Why did the parent/god make the room?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #183 on: May 06, 2014, 08:26:05 PM »
Clarify this just really fast.

Is the parent god?
Is the room hell?
Is the kid a representstion of humanity?
What is the door?
Why did the parent/god make the room?
We'll wait for epidemic response since it is him who made the analogy.
You're worth more than my time

Online Jag

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #184 on: May 06, 2014, 08:27:13 PM »
It's not a discussion anymore. It's an ever changing analogy game that he can twist and design until he can force someone to agree with him.
I don’t think he is a troll but it is a very dishonest tactic. In my opinion it should be mocked.

Anyway, enjoy the game.... I mean "discussion''

I'm with you, mockery seems appropriate.

But I've considered just "taking one for the team" and agreeing with him just to see what would happen. I can't figure out what the hell I'd be agreeing with anymore though...
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #185 on: May 06, 2014, 08:49:10 PM »
Clarify this just really fast.

Is the parent god?
Is the room hell?
Is the kid a representstion of humanity?
What is the door?
Why did the parent/god make the room?
We'll wait for epidemic response since it is him who made the analogy.
Tell me what you think it is.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #186 on: May 06, 2014, 11:51:41 PM »
All I'm saying is that God cannot make something evil. (He can but won't) It is part of his definition.

It's a very interesting human-invented axiom, but it flies in the face of the facts.

The best way to make this axiom work, is to erase the human definition of evil, and have no good and evil. Then God cannot be evil.

Once the human definition of "love" has been erased, then God can only love.

I would ask: why is it so important to you that God can only be Good? Surely, if God is great, and understands the point of the universe, he can be as evil as he likes to be.

Is it important to you that God is good, because the Bible says that at certain points? The Bible says lots of things that you ignore, so why is this one important to you?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #187 on: May 06, 2014, 11:55:36 PM »
It's not a discussion anymore. It's an ever changing analogy game that he can twist and design until he can force someone to agree with him.
I don’t think he is a troll but it is a very dishonest tactic. In my opinion it should be mocked.

Anyway, enjoy the game.... I mean "discussion''

I'd rather talk to someone who knew all the philosophy in advance, and didn't pretend to be a 2 year old, to get his naive posturing across.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #188 on: May 07, 2014, 02:37:46 AM »
Once again, I seem to have missed some of the fun! However, I wonder if we could get Luk to settle for the following.

In the analogy we have -

parent = god
child = humanity
poisoned room = hell

Given that god is supposed to have created everything, he, by definition, created hell, the devil and the demons that assist the devil with the punishments that afflict those in hell. No, Luk, there's no getting around this one - your god created 'everything' so it has to include hell - the 'poisoned room' in the analogy.

Now, unlike the room in the analogy - a place a child might easily walk into - god has set down the definitions of who will and will not enter hell but he made a mess of telling everything to people as even the bible is no means clear and, of course, his dictation of the Qur'an means a whole load more definitions which conflict with the bible. So unlike the 'poisoned room', people are going to be unclear as to what they have to do to avoid that 'poisoned room'.

So we have

God the parent creating the poisoned room, being vague about how to avoid ending up there and then doing nothing when the child walks in an dies. I'd say that amounts to evil and no recourse to, 'well god can't do evil by definition' is going to change that.

Oh, and Luk, no changing the analogy when it starts to fail to get your point across. We are sticking with the original analogy.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #189 on: May 07, 2014, 03:10:15 AM »
God's not a parent. I already have parents.

My imaginary parent can't do any evil, because he's imaginary.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 03:11:58 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #190 on: May 07, 2014, 05:29:07 AM »
Luk when you had your personal experience of god how do you know it is/was yaweh specifically and not some other god or deity?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 05:31:11 AM by eh! »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #191 on: May 07, 2014, 07:28:14 AM »

All I'm saying is that God cannot make something evil. (He can but won't) It is part of his definition.

So there must be things in the Universe not made by God. Who made them then? A different God?

Or shall we go with the more simple conclusion: this god crap is made up.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #192 on: May 07, 2014, 07:35:01 AM »
Quote from: Anfauglir
I want you to believe there is a live, hungry tiger loose in your bedroom.....Tell me how your life has changed, now you have this belief.
Not much, but not nothing. The degree of reality this particular tiger has impact only my time typing answers in this forum and made me smile :) (I'm happier)

Then I would suggest that you do not believe.  Let me know when you actually do.

Where have you been sleeping?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #193 on: May 07, 2014, 08:06:30 AM »
All I'm saying is that God cannot make something evil.

ahem.  Satan?

also, Isaiah 45:7.
Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


End of argument...

Sorry.  You do not get to make decrees like that.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #194 on: May 07, 2014, 08:57:59 AM »
All I'm saying is that God cannot make something evil.

ahem.  Satan?

also, Isaiah 45:7.
Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Damn, beat me to it. Please, oh please don't allow Luk to get away without admitting he's wrong.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #195 on: May 07, 2014, 10:19:27 AM »

Damn, beat me to it. Please, oh please don't allow Luk to get away without admitting he's wrong.

Umm admit he's wrong? That's not going to happen, he will redefine it into 'right.'
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #196 on: May 07, 2014, 10:29:26 AM »

Damn, beat me to it. Please, oh please don't allow Luk to get away without admitting he's wrong.

Umm admit he's wrong? That's not going to happen, he will redefine it into 'right.'

I know... I laughed sarcastically at myself the moment I wrote it, but one can dream....
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #197 on: May 07, 2014, 10:56:18 AM »
http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html
Quote
Question: "Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?"

 Answer:  Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

 (2) The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.

Hey now god did not create evil! This apologetics article explains it all! God meant that he didn’t create moral evil he just smites those whose heart he hardened... cuz... you know.... that’s not evil.... right?
We all know Luks god wanted us to not be a moral species or be anything more than hairless apes from the story about the apple and that meddling talking snake. But I know I have beaten that philosophy of mine to death so I will drop it.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #198 on: May 07, 2014, 11:08:35 AM »
Hey now god did not create evil! This apologetics article explains it all! God meant that he didn’t create moral evil he just smites those whose heart he hardened... cuz... you know.... that’s not evil.... right?

Also, the ends justify the means. God's plan of starving Africans, and cancer is good, because it has a perfect and happy ending... some time in the distant future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #199 on: May 07, 2014, 12:03:39 PM »
http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html
Quote
Question: "Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?"...

This is wrong.  GotQuestions are liars.  It is moments like this that makes me really sad the old forum is not accessible.  Former member DTE - coiner of the term SPAG, and trained theologian - wrote a post on this.  The essence of it is this: "rah" is moral evil.  It is the word used when describing the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

more examples here:  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21745.msg495759.html#msg495759

And the word used for "create" was "bara", which only has god as the subject.  So it was created in a way that only god can create.  Is calamity made by god only?  I don't think so.  Since "rah" was used to describe the "wicked" men of Sodom, it seems to me they were indeed morally "wicked" and not simply causing "calamity". 

The other words they equate with "rah" are more or less apologetics used to avoid inconvenient ideas.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #200 on: May 07, 2014, 12:22:39 PM »
Isn't restraining your son physically going against his will? Effectively depriving him of his freedom?

No because my son does not believe me.  He thinks this is all a hoax.  Some sort of practical joke I am playing on him.  The lack of his belief means i must take extraordinary measures to stop him and convince him until the danger has passed.


In the case of this being my belief in god.  I do not consider myself informed anymore than tales of zeus, Oden, or thor.


In my case if god is real.  he is going to torture me for eternity, for failing to understand/believe the King james or NJIV bible is his rule book to avoid such punishment.  I know full well what the bible says.  I am pretty sure there is no such thing as god, and I am almost certain that none of the religious texts in any way address any god that might exist.


Proofs that the bible (paper source of christianity) is a work of man and not gods truth.

Exodus - flawed in so many ways that I find it impossible to believe.
1) red sea opened up allowing 2.5 million people through 10 abreast 2.5 Million bodies would represent a percession of people 100 miles long.  Pharoah could easily have caught up with them in the multiple days it would have taken to walk across the red sea.

2) No evidence of jews in egypt

3) only one source for miracles and plagues.  A culture that values male heirs as highly as ancient egyptians would have a record of all first born males dying.

4) people wittnessing the red sea opening up allowing 2.5 million people through and the 10 plagues would not immediatly begin physical sins like creating graven images.

The book of Job, essentially a bet with god.

1) The devil knows that god knows the outcome of the bet, so the only benefit he gets from the deal is the ability to see Job suffer. 

2) God knows the devil is using him to commit an evil act.  But feels compelled to make Job his, faithful servant to suffer.  For what possible reason, vanity???

3) every life is sacred (from egg to wrinkles) Killing Job's innocent wife and kids punishes more than just Job. God is doing the devils bidding.  Giving Job wealth, power, and a new family does not make up for his loss.  He still has lost his family.

Noah
1) No evidence of a global flood.

2) requires young earth, lots of proof that this is not a young world.

3) Fossil record

4) Boat not big enough to house a fraction of plants or animals or food let alone all.

5) Plant life could not have propagated around the would in the time it would take.  Pine trees as an example could probably move 5 miles every 5 or 10 years.

6) two Snails or slugs could not reach the ends of the earth even if they ran with out eating or breeding in thousands of years.  Let alon become all the breeds of snails we see today.

Just those three stories prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the bible is in error. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 12:59:06 PM by epidemic »

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #201 on: May 07, 2014, 12:29:38 PM »
It is the word used when describing the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

...Which God created.

So, the question to Lukvance is where did God get the concept of Evil from in order to create the Tree if you still believe God did not create evil in spite of what the Bible itself claims.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 12:31:30 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #202 on: May 07, 2014, 12:37:50 PM »
Lukvance, face it. You cannot make someone who fills a room full of poison and lets their child go into it a good person. You just can't. No matter how you tweak the parameters--"Well what if the parent told a neighbor to warn the kid, and the kid did not listen, what then? Okay how about the parent told the kid's best friend?  Or how about the parent told Batman to warn the kid, and the child still went into the room?"

Well in the case of my scenario, the parent did make the room full of poison but his intent was not to kill any human.  I think I clarified that the parent poisoned the room to kill pests.  Where he becomes a bad guy is when he stands there and uses sources that may not be considered credible to pass on the message.  Finally he stands at the entrance to the room and ignores his child obvious mistake and allows him to walk into a deadly sitation.  (technically he was informed but not in a credible way)

His obligation was to stand at the door and warn his kid of the risk and make sure the message is received and understood.

God created Sin (he created everything) {analogous to the room of poison}, God uses only ancient texts and vague signs to indicate there is a problem (the stranger passing on the message), god allows people to sin with out insuring understanding (When the child indicated that he did not believe the story and began to enter the room dad neither confirms the risk or denies it)

Even if god somehow did not create sin he still allows people to mistakenly enter the state without speaking up and insurring understanding of the risks.  He silently watches as billions of people fail to grasp the mistake they are making and allows them to suffer (or directly makes them suffer).
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 01:04:59 PM by epidemic »