Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 8223 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #145 on: May 05, 2014, 09:49:09 PM »
God will not force himself upon you. If you happen to be raised in the wrong religion, too bad. Most people are not Christians. They practice different religions. They do not think that they are blocked from god by their "sins". They think they are doing the right thing, hearing god just fine.

Suppose you are raised by Scientologist parents.[1] Is it okay to be a Scientologist? Is that fine with god? According to you, god is not going to force himself on them.

Does god just write you off? Or does he let you pass, knowing you did your best, given the religion you believed and practiced?

If you think that god lets people slide as long as they do their best, what is the point of religion again? Because most people do their best, religious or not.
 1. I am assuming you do not think that is the correct way to worship god, since you are not of that faith.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #146 on: May 05, 2014, 11:23:21 PM »
I can only assume they actually talked to you in order for you to realize that they were right?  They were actually around to hear your protestations, yes?

Didn't your parents...I dunno...interact with you?
Yes and yes.
Quote from: jdawg70
Quote
Does that make my relation with my parents (who are stronger than me...etc) a classic domestic abuse situation?
I dunno - if they never even interacted with you, it could be considered neglect.  That's a form of abuse.
Ok. So, if they did interact? Does that make my relation with my parents (who are stronger than me...etc) a classic domestic abuse situation?
You seem to have appropriate nogodsforme idea. Are you sure you 2 agree on this subject?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #147 on: May 05, 2014, 11:30:31 PM »
Luk, please respond properly to my request (it's just a few posts above).
You said "And please, don't waste time..reply with the scripture, or don't do it at all." So i didn't do it at all...

Quote from: Defiance
Which parent, who knowingly created people a certain way, drowns nearly all but a few? For something that parent changed in their will?
No parents.

Quote from: Defiance
Does the child have freewill, or is he always following what god knows the child will follow?
He has freewill.

Quote from: Defiance
If god knows everything that will happen, then the human will only go one way; THAT ONE DIRECTION THAT GOD SEES IN THE FUTURE.
No.

Quote from: Defiance
Freewill, or God's omnipotence and omniscience? Pick one. Can't have both.
Yes we can.

Quote from: Defiance
And even if I want to punish my child...eternal torment and torture for a childish mistake?
No.

I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #148 on: May 05, 2014, 11:35:14 PM »
Suppose you are raised by Scientologist parents.[1] Is it okay to be a Scientologist? Is that fine with god? According to you, god is not going to force himself on them.

Does god just write you off? Or does he let you pass, knowing you did your best, given the religion you believed and practiced?

If you think that god lets people slide as long as they do their best, what is the point of religion again? Because most people do their best, religious or not.
 1. I am assuming you do not think that is the correct way to worship god, since you are not of that faith.
I believe that atheist can go to heaven. So in a way "god lets people slide as long as they do their best" is true.
The point of religion? Like school, it is there to teach you. Some schools are good some others are less good but all have the same purpose.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #149 on: May 06, 2014, 05:48:45 AM »
Nice way to bullsh!t your way through our questions.

Want to have a one on one debate?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #150 on: May 06, 2014, 06:43:18 AM »
LukeVance,

Quote
Hypothetical, Should I let my son walk through a door to room filled with poisonous gas?

This kid he does not know tells him at school is poisonous gas in the master bedroom of our house.  My son says I don't believe you .(meanwhile I have filled the master bedroom with a deadly instant toxin)  Now my son gets home he walks up to me and tells me the story about the Toxic gas I just stare at him and say nothing.  He says that he thinks it is a rediculous story and proceeds to the door.  I know it is true, I set it up, I know there is no evidence that a danger exists and I refuse to tell him.   He walks into the room and dies.  Did my son have enough information to make an informed decision was he able to exercise free will? 

Of course he did, some kid at school told him an unlikely story, I did not confirm or deny it.  He should have known that the toxin was present.

in my hypothetical situation wouldn't I be criminally liable for not intervening on my sons incorrect belief?
Yes! What if you tell your son and he doesn't want to listen to you? What if you send your son's friend to help him realize that the room is filled with poison? Would you still be criminally liable?

excellent point Lukevance.  But I must clarify something.  A friend might have carried more weight.  In my scenario, but alas my son had absolutely no reason to believe the preposterous story told by the stranger from his school.  In fact the very nature of their relationship was in keeping with silly jokes play on each other, further reducing the weight of the story.

Now as for what should I do before allowing my kid to walk into a room full of Poison GAS Well we can all agree that sending a less than credible source to warn him was hit or miss at best.  So now I am the last line of defense before my son dies a horrible/easily preventable/ senseless death. 

My son is bound and determined to enter the room because he does not believe, well I will do everything in my power to prevent his entering the room.  First I will corroberate the story of the kid in school, I will tell him I saw this kid and told him to pass  the warning on to you.  I will tell him that the story is indeed true.  If he continues to try to enter the room I would physically get in his way and do anything including beating him away from the door.  If he overpowers me the fact that I would have locked the door to prevent egress will be my last defense.  After that I would have exhausted my human capabilities. 

Now back to god, the "Lack of faith" room that he built and fostered by remaining mostly invisible, the toxic gas that kills you is the punishment that he created. If God were even as nice as this sinner (Me), he would do far more to prevent someone from going into the hell he created. 

Being visible, Current, relevant, believable to someone about to Die a horrible death.  Personal visits, healing amputees, semi-regular current documented miracles, or simply making me truely believe by what ever means are at his disposal to prevent my eternal damnation.

Free will is not interfered with by giving, proof,  truth and relevant facts.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #151 on: May 06, 2014, 07:43:03 AM »
I believe that atheist can go to heaven. So in a way "god lets people slide as long as they do their best" is true.

That should have been written in the NT, then. Something like:

Jesus saves us from our sins, even if we don't believe in him; but it's easier to get into heaven if you do believe in him.

It's a pity that sort of clashes with everything else the NT says.

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #152 on: May 06, 2014, 08:12:52 AM »
I believe that atheist can go to heaven. So in a way "god lets people slide as long as they do their best" is true.

That should have been written in the NT, then. Something like:

Jesus saves us from our sins, even if we don't believe in him; but it's easier to get into heaven if you do believe in him.

It's a pity that sort of clashes with everything else the NT says.

But only sort of....remember with a mass of self contradictory purple prose and metaphorical language the size of the New Testament, you can more or less justify ANY viewpoint.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #153 on: May 06, 2014, 09:05:23 AM »
I believe that atheist can go to heaven. So in a way "god lets people slide as long as they do their best" is true.

Ladies and gentlemen... I do believe we've uncovered a previously unknown theistic species. I submit this be given the scientific name of "Christianicus GiveIttheOldCollegeTryicus".

So, my mom was right all along when she attempted to comfort me after being told by a classmate that I would go to Hell for not being Baptized: "He's wrong! You just need to be a good person!".

It couldn't be that simplistic, I would later conclude. It never is.

Quote
<snip>as long as they do their best

While I honestly admire your optimistic attitude (I really do), you must admit that as an atheist I should find this statement incredulous at best since this without question goes against what the Abrahamic religions teach.

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #154 on: May 06, 2014, 09:13:41 AM »
I believe that atheist can go to heaven. So in a way "god lets people slide as long as they do their best" is true.

Ladies and gentlemen... I do believe we've uncovered a previously unknown theistic species. I submit this be given the scientific name of "Christianicus GiveIttheOldCollegeTryicus".

So, my mom was right all along when she attempted to comfort me after being told by a classmate that I would go to Hell for not being Baptized: "He's wrong! You just need to be a good person!".

It couldn't be that simplistic, I would later conclude. It never is.

Quote
<snip>as long as they do their best

While I honestly admire your optimistic attitude (I really do), you must admit that as an atheist I should find this statement incredulous at best since this without question goes against what the Abrahamic religions teach.

Hell it gives us free reign to do whatever as long as it is our best.
The psycho who is restrained enough to only kill 6 hookers instead of the 20 that he originally planned should get a pass for the pearly gates. He is doing his best with the tools he was given afterall

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #155 on: May 06, 2014, 09:33:25 AM »
Hell it gives us free reign to do whatever as long as it is our best.
The psycho who is restrained enough to only kill 6 hookers instead of the 20 that he originally planned should get a pass for the pearly gates. He is doing his best with the tools he was given afterall

Since he has obviously "gone off the reservation" in regards to his theistic beliefs, it would be nice to have some sort of handy reference guide that could define what "giving it your best" actually entails, since the Bible appears to no longer be a valid source for how to get in to heaven.

Perhaps a new Ten Commandments are in order? I'll start:

1) Thou shall try to keep an open mind as to I, Your God's existence. Pretty please.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #156 on: May 06, 2014, 09:38:31 AM »
2) Love your neighbour, even if he is a bloke.

PS: also remember that women exist.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:42:54 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Don_Quixote

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #157 on: May 06, 2014, 10:21:19 AM »
If we don't need to believe... what is the missionaries purpose?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #158 on: May 06, 2014, 11:42:30 AM »
Nice way to bullsh!t your way through our questions.

Want to have a one on one debate?

Sure!
But insulting me won't help at all in a debate. It is usually not a good start.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2014, 12:43:29 PM »
Nice way to bullsh!t your way through our questions.

Want to have a one on one debate?

Sure!
But insulting me won't help at all in a debate. It is usually not a good start.

Lukvance,

if you could reply to my post 150. I am really trying to get your thoughts on this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2014, 01:39:58 PM »
Nice way to bullsh!t your way through our questions.

Want to have a one on one debate?

Sure!
But insulting me won't help at all in a debate. It is usually not a good start.

Then I apologise. Guess your unsatisfactory answers to other people's questions got to me.

And about the debate, is anytime fine with you? I can check everyday but not have constant responses. We'll discuss the rules on a separate thread.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2014, 02:03:25 PM »
LukeVance,

Quote
Hypothetical, Should I let my son walk through a door to room filled with poisonous gas?

This kid he does not know tells him at school is poisonous gas in the master bedroom of our house.  My son says I don't believe you .(meanwhile I have filled the master bedroom with a deadly instant toxin)  Now my son gets home he walks up to me and tells me the story about the Toxic gas I just stare at him and say nothing.  He says that he thinks it is a rediculous story and proceeds to the door.  I know it is true, I set it up, I know there is no evidence that a danger exists and I refuse to tell him.   He walks into the room and dies.  Did my son have enough information to make an informed decision was he able to exercise free will? 

Of course he did, some kid at school told him an unlikely story, I did not confirm or deny it.  He should have known that the toxin was present.

in my hypothetical situation wouldn't I be criminally liable for not intervening on my sons incorrect belief?
Yes! What if you tell your son and he doesn't want to listen to you? What if you send your son's friend to help him realize that the room is filled with poison? Would you still be criminally liable?

excellent point Lukevance.  But I must clarify something.  A friend might have carried more weight.  In my scenario, but alas my son had absolutely no reason to believe the preposterous story told by the stranger from his school.  In fact the very nature of their relationship was in keeping with silly jokes play on each other, further reducing the weight of the story.

Now as for what should I do before allowing my kid to walk into a room full of Poison GAS Well we can all agree that sending a less than credible source to warn him was hit or miss at best.  So now I am the last line of defense before my son dies a horrible/easily preventable/ senseless death. 

My son is bound and determined to enter the room because he does not believe, well I will do everything in my power to prevent his entering the room.  First I will corroberate the story of the kid in school, I will tell him I saw this kid and told him to pass  the warning on to you.  I will tell him that the story is indeed true.  If he continues to try to enter the room I would physically get in his way and do anything including beating him away from the door.  If he overpowers me the fact that I would have locked the door to prevent egress will be my last defense.  After that I would have exhausted my human capabilities. 

Now back to god, the "Lack of faith" room that he built and fostered by remaining mostly invisible, the toxic gas that kills you is the punishment that he created. If God were even as nice as this sinner (Me), he would do far more to prevent someone from going into the hell he created. 

Being visible, Current, relevant, believable to someone about to Die a horrible death.  Personal visits, healing amputees, semi-regular current documented miracles, or simply making me truely believe by what ever means are at his disposal to prevent my eternal damnation.

Free will is not interfered with by giving, proof,  truth and relevant facts.
Isn't restraining your son physically going against his will? Effectively depriving him of his freedom?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Online screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2014, 02:18:04 PM »
Isn't restraining your son physically going against his will? Effectively depriving him of his freedom?

1. you are arguing the metaphor rather the the point being made by the metaphor.  Try to overlook the problems with the metaphor and address the point being made.  Better yet, try to avoid metaphors altogether.  It bogs down conversations.

2. arguably, yes.  So what?  Is that not what a good parent should do?  Is freedom more important, in this case, than safety and irrevokable injury?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2014, 03:51:24 PM »
A parent's #1 job is to keep their kid safe. Period. Anything like "free will", whatever the hell that is, comes way down the line.

I am sure that almost[1] any loving parent would rather have their kid angry at them, go and live with other people, even never speak to them again, as long as they were safe and alive. I know I would rather break my daughter's legs than have her walk into a room of poison gas and die. Screw "free will".

God fails the loving parent test. Again. :'(
 1. I said "almost" because there are religious people who would rather have their kids die than have them be gay or not a virgin at marriage.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2014, 04:01:47 PM »
I agree with nogodsforme

If I become a parent one day, I dont care if I violate my kid's free will; im not going to let him walk into a poison room, get run over, or shot, if I know all along that he/she about to be killed.

Incoming : "God is wiser and we cant understand him."
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2014, 04:14:55 PM »
I agree with nogodsforme
If I become a parent one day, I dont care if I violate my kid's free will; im not going to let him walk into a poison room, get run over, or shot, if I know all along that he/she about to be killed.
Incoming : "God is wiser and we cant understand him."

What if, instead of killing the Kid, the room just separate the kid from the parent? Will you still physically force your kid to stay with you if you don't want?
ps : You have the knowledge that your kid will be happier with you than inside the room.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #166 on: May 06, 2014, 04:21:57 PM »
^
How about you just politely ask people to agree with you rather than setting metaphorical traps that weight HEAVILY in the favor of your argument. Whatever that may be.. I lost your point in all the metaphors and analogies.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2014, 04:26:13 PM »
Wait a minute...
Why did the parent create the room in the first place?
Seeing that his kids would end up going there simply because they are being kids, why would he make the room?
Why not just never make the room, and never have the struggle?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2014, 04:34:28 PM »
Wait a minute...
Why did the parent create the room in the first place?
Seeing that his kids would end up going there simply because they are being kids, why would he make the room?
Why not just never make the room, and never have the struggle?
What if you made the room and your child build the door? Or if it your child who built the room to get away from you?
What if, instead of killing the Kid, the room just separate the kid from the parent? Will you still physically force your kid to stay with you if you don't want?
ps : You have the knowledge that your kid will be happier with you than inside the room.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 04:36:28 PM by Lukvance »
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2014, 04:38:24 PM »
No, no.
The parent purposely put it there to tempt the kid. There is no other reason.

In that case, the child is not at fault. The parent is.

There was no logical reason for a room to be there.

And how would a kid make the door...and not step into it?

Tell me then, wouldn't life just be amazing if there were poison room temptation at all?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #170 on: May 06, 2014, 04:41:52 PM »
No, no.
The parent purposely put it there to tempt the kid. There is no other reason.

In that case, the child is not at fault. The parent is.

There was no logical reason for a room to be there.

And how would a kid make the door...and not step into it?

Tell me then, wouldn't life just be amazing if there were poison room temptation at all?
So, you are not answering my questions :)
Do you mean that you are evil? (since you made the room to tempt your child)
What if you made the room and your child build the door? Or if it your child who built the room to get away from you?
What if, instead of killing the Kid, the room just separate the kid from the parent? Will you still physically force your kid to stay with you if you don't want?
ps : You have the knowledge that your kid will be happier with you than inside the room.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #171 on: May 06, 2014, 04:47:30 PM »
I will answer it, as soon as you answer all the questions from others.

Am I evil? Wasn't the parent a metaphor for god?

So you are saying god is evil?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #172 on: May 06, 2014, 04:51:08 PM »
What if your child was a hungry crocoduck? Would you lock him in the room or would you give him 3 fish? What if his mom created the room out of wedlock. Would the gnome go to hell then? Or would dinosaurs learn to speak English?
What if the room had a hole in it that a mouse could crawl through? Would you let the crockoduck child play with the mouse if it had rabies?  What if the mouse smelled like poo and it rubbed off on your crockoduck and then you had a stinky crockoduck? Would you sacrifice the stinky crockoduck or give him a bath? What if the crockoduck was allergic to water but the room his mom built was under water? Again built out of wedlock.

p.s. You have the knowledge that the crockoduck will be happy if

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #173 on: May 06, 2014, 04:57:36 PM »
I will answer it, as soon as you answer all the questions from others.

Am I evil? Wasn't the parent a metaphor for god?

So you are saying god is evil?
I don't remember leaving a question without an answer.
The parent purposely put it there to tempt the kid. There is no other reason.
Do you mean that you are evil? (since you made the room to tempt your child)

What if you made the room and your child build the door? Or if it your child who built the room to get away from you?
What if, instead of killing the Kid, the room just separate the kid from the parent? Will you still physically force your kid to stay with you if you don't want?
ps : You have the knowledge that your kid will be happier with you than inside the room.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time