Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 8980 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« on: April 08, 2014, 02:32:32 PM »

I had a discussion with epidemic that went like this :
LukeVance
Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?
Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man who turned on him? (both situations according to the bible made him angry.)  If god knows all, is not bound by time and has absolute power why would he keep doing things that disappoint him.
Finally why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment? (mind you I don't disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I dont believe because I find his story to be ficticious)
Oh yeah, why all the mystery, surely a visible god is much easier to believe in.  Why all the cloak and dagger shit? Appear in the sky blow up some sinners and write a bible in a language that all humans understand at their core, no translation errors or misunderstanding.  Hell writing a bible that all humans understand at a genetic level would certainly go a long way toward to converting me I think.  Why let your word be corrupted by mistranslations, and period sensitive verses that are culturally meaningless today.

You're funny, Welcome to the conversation about the existence of God. For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?
Why would I need to acknowledge gods existence for you to comment.  But if it makes you feel better I will acknowlege his existence for the sake of argument. 
Personally as we learn more about the universe we slowly push back the place where god must have existed.  Once upon a time god was necessary for lightning to strike (then we learned about electrons), rain to come (condensation and evaporation), stars to exist (gravity and burning hydrogen).  Our knowledge of the mechanics of weather, universe do not eliminate the possibility of god, only offers a non supernatural alternative.  Now the place where I still leave reserved for possible proof of god is the instant the big bang began.  The only place I see as a last refuge for proving god is in my ignorance of the creation of everything from nothing.   
For the moment I will take that shread of belief in the possibility of a creator to be my belief in god/any flavor of the christian bible you choose.  So go ahead and answer the questions above.
PS just thought of another great proof.  Any attempt to misrepresent the word of god on paper results in the words catching fire, and uttering falsehoods about god makes you violently ill.
I thought I would create a new thread to answer his questions because I found them out of subject over there.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 05:00:02 PM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 05:34:35 PM »
Vance yr image of white man jesus seems a bit of a slur to the majority xtians that are not anglo eg hispanics/latinos etc. what the chance of a bronze age man born in the middle east being a white man??
what does the bible say re jesus phenotype? In the absence of evidence you just make shit up to confirm yr bias?


I just asked jesus to speak to me and said on my own free will i would like nothing more than to know his presence. still waiting for a sign. how long it normally takes.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 05:36:27 PM by eh! »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 05:57:52 PM »
It's a beautiful picture from an actor. Not the actual Jesus. Any other out of subject question like this one?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 06:33:41 PM »
The Free Will defense doesn't work Lukvance.

Well at least not if there is any difference between not knowing "God" exists and knowing.  If "God" treats everyone exactly the same regardless of their actions, then maybe the Free Will defense works.

As soon as there are any rules or expectations for behavior etc. then the Free Will defense crumbles.  It is like a house made of sand.  Sure you can make it look real nice and it may even be pleasant to be in, but one gust of wind and the whole thing comes down.

"God" making his existence clear and unambiguous does not violate free will in anyway.  Actually, the cloak and dagger shit from "God" is a violation of free will.

For example, lets say I own a restaurant and I advertise that I give all of the wonderful freedoms that "God" gives humanity.  Let's say, you think that sounds nice, come in and order a meal.  I bring your plate, but there is nothing on it.  You correctly ask "where is my food that I ordered?"  I respond "Well you are free to believe there is a meal or not believe there is a meal, that is your freedom of choice", afterwards, I give you your bill.  Would you pay?  I wouldn't pay, and the advertisement of freedom is bullshit.  If the roles were reversed and I received an empty plate, I don't have any freedom, I got a freaking empty plate, and my freedom is being violated because now I'm being ripped off by having to pay for nothing. 

Now, if a meal is actually provided, now I have freedom.  I can either like the meal or not like the meal.  I have the ability to choose or decide whether I like the meal or not.

Your god isn't respecting freedom, your god is violating freedom.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 07:13:19 PM »
what about these pics from the guy who became famous as dracula;

http://web.archive.org/web/20071008052502/http://users.auracom.com/tournier/belajc.jpg
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 07:49:06 PM »
The Free Will defense doesn't work Lukvance.

Well at least not if there is any difference between not knowing "God" exists and knowing.  If "God" treats everyone exactly the same regardless of their actions, then maybe the Free Will defense works.

As soon as there are any rules or expectations for behavior etc. then the Free Will defense crumbles.  It is like a house made of sand.  Sure you can make it look real nice and it may even be pleasant to be in, but one gust of wind and the whole thing comes down.

"God" making his existence clear and unambiguous does not violate free will in anyway.  Actually, the cloak and dagger shit from "God" is a violation of free will.

For example, lets say I own a restaurant and I advertise that I give all of the wonderful freedoms that "God" gives humanity.  Let's say, you think that sounds nice, come in and order a meal.  I bring your plate, but there is nothing on it.  You correctly ask "where is my food that I ordered?"  I respond "Well you are free to believe there is a meal or not believe there is a meal, that is your freedom of choice", afterwards, I give you your bill.  Would you pay?  I wouldn't pay, and the advertisement of freedom is bullshit.  If the roles were reversed and I received an empty plate, I don't have any freedom, I got a freaking empty plate, and my freedom is being violated because now I'm being ripped off by having to pay for nothing. 

Now, if a meal is actually provided, now I have freedom.  I can either like the meal or not like the meal.  I have the ability to choose or decide whether I like the meal or not.

Your god isn't respecting freedom, your god is violating freedom.
So let's say you own a restaurant (in this Example you are God and the restaurant is heaven) The difference between you and God is that God cannot lie. If he says there is something on the plate, there is something on the plate. Let's say I look around and see many people eating of plates that looks empty for me. i ask them what is going on and they assure me that there is something on the plate. I am free to choose, believe in the restaurant manager and see what's in the plate or don't and leave the place. I would not want to pay the bill and will be sad and hungry outside the restaurant where the party is going on. (just like heaven and hell)

Ps: It reminded me of a scene of peter pan with Robin William :
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 08:32:16 PM »
My point remains.  Your god violates free will.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline stuffin

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 08:34:37 PM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

If God is not hiding from me, then where can I find him?
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 09:01:40 PM »
My point remains.  Your god violates free will.
My point remains too. God does not violate my free will.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2014, 09:03:14 PM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

If God is not hiding from me, then where can I find him?
I can bring you to him. But you better ask the closest priest from your place. I might be a little far from you.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 09:10:48 PM »
A god who values your so-called "free will" over life itself has his priorities all mucked up. A god who lets the bad destroy the free will of the good, a god who ineptly makes it easy to think he doesn't exist, a god with no imagination, arbitrary standards and no understanding of human strengths and weaknesses wouldn't be worth worshipping anyway.

Since he doesn't exist, that isn't a issue. But it sure makes you look silly, Luk.

Your avatar is a good looking Jesus because that's how you look at religion. As beautiful and perfect and a few other highfalutin things. You don't want to think about a swarthy, black-haired Jesus, you don't want to think about Mary not being a beautiful white teen, you don't want to think about how ugly god must be if he made us in his image. You have cleaned up and sanitized religion so that it provides you comfort even as it condemns billions to less that pleasant lives and deaths.

If I find a cuter Jesus, I'll let you know. I know you'll be interested. There must be some great anime ones. You might try googling those. What more could you want than a blonde Jesus with really long legs and great big blue eyes. Makes you hot just thinking about it, doesn't it.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 09:15:17 PM »
Thanks for input. I hope some will find comfort in it.
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Online SevenPatch

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2014, 07:33:43 AM »
My point remains.  Your god violates free will.
My point remains too. God does not violate my free will.

Your point remains as an illusion with no evidence.  You have yet to show how it is possible to freely choose to believe something does not exist.  Either it does or it doesn't.  Expecting someone to believe something is real when it is not is precisely a violation of free will.

Lukvance, do you think I choose to not know "God" exists?
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 07:44:46 AM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

If this is the case doesn't the bible interfere with your free will? After all if you could just "know god" what is the point in an instruction manual?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger s**t [from God]?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2014, 07:52:24 AM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.
How does that differ from there being no god?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline junebug72

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 08:29:44 AM »

Quote
So let's say you own a restaurant (in this Example you are God and the restaurant is heaven) The difference between you and God is that God cannot lie. If he says there is something on the plate, there is something on the plate. Let's say I look around and see many people eating of plates that looks empty for me. i ask them what is going on and they assure me that there is something on the plate. I am free to choose, believe in the restaurant manager and see what's in the plate or don't and leave the place. I would not want to pay the bill and will be sad and hungry outside the restaurant where the party is going on. (just like heaven and hell)

First of all you can physically see that the plate is empty. 

The rest is not comprehensible. 

Hell is an eternal fire.  Unless the restaurant closes you can always go back in and try the empty plate.  There is no returning from hell.

I think you've had too much FALSE DOCTRINE!

You believe in a cruel God that makes you a cruel man! 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 08:38:27 AM »
So let's say you own a restaurant (in this Example you are God and the restaurant is heaven) The difference between you and God is that God cannot lie.
Are you telling god what he can or cannot do?  Are you depriving god of his free will to choose whether or not to ever lie?

Or does 'intentionally saying and/or communicating something that is not true' not lying when god does it?

Quote
If he says there is something on the plate, there is something on the plate. Let's say I look around and see many people eating of plates that looks empty for me. i ask them what is going on and they assure me that there is something on the plate. I am free to choose, believe in the restaurant manager and see what's in the plate or don't and leave the place. I would not want to pay the bill and will be sad and hungry outside the restaurant where the party is going on. (just like heaven and hell)
In what way is this scenario superior to one where you actually saw food on the plate?  In what way does actually seeing the food in front of you and others violate your free will to decide whether or not to leave the restaurant?  Or violate your free will to decide whether or not to believe the restaurant manager - with the way you are describing it, would you not have the free will to choose to believe that there is no food on those plates despite being told otherwise?

Quote
Ps: It reminded me of a scene of peter pan with Robin William :
<snip>
Yes, it certainly does remind me of a scene in a fictitious story showcasing the depth of the imagination of children.

Bunch of people raucously proclaiming how joyous and wonderful the feast in front of them is while whittling away, starving, desperately clinging onto the silly notion that the empty plates in front of them are full of food just because an old book says so and that it 'cannot lie'.  And they are all so scared of growing up and facing reality.

Poor choice for an inspiring pop culture example.  Really poor choice.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2014, 08:53:29 AM »
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

Is it still respecting my freedom if he does not talk to me even when I want him to

Why are we expected to believe without evidence?  This is called "blind faith".  I consider it to be the height of irrationality.

Believing without evidence is not the same as freely choosing. Why do you equate the two?

Freely choosing usually means there is no coersion or penalties for your choice.  This is not the case with god.  If we choose to follow god, we get rewarded infinitely.  If we choose to not follow god, we get infinite torture.  If people give you these options, it is called extortion, and is illegal and considered immoral.  So where is the free choice?

How does knowing god exists prevent us from chosing to follow his rules?  If the bible is to be believed, the ancient jews saw god, yet, they still had the option to disobey.


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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2014, 09:16:01 AM »
If the bible is to be believed, the ancient jews Satan & 1/3 of the heavenly host saw god, yet, they still had the option to disobey.

Bet God really was regretting that whole "free will" thing then. ;)
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2014, 09:23:40 AM »
Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

Why?  Who does that benefit?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2014, 10:28:31 AM »
My point remains.  Your god violates free will.
My point remains too. God does not violate my free will.

Your point remains as an illusion with no evidence.  You have yet to show how it is possible to freely choose to believe something does not exist.  Either it does or it doesn't.  Expecting someone to believe something is real when it is not is precisely a violation of free will.

Lukvance, do you think I choose to not know "God" exists?
We don't care. His existence is not based on your choice. He exist whether you want it or not. I can't force you to admit that Alzheimer's exist, if you don't want to believe you won't. Same thing with "your kid is sad". It's because of your free will. In conclusion, Your free will allows you to deny the existence of something that exist. But, this is not the subject here.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2014, 10:34:10 AM »
Quote from: Lukvance date=1396994402
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

If this is the case doesn't the bible interfere with your free will? After all if you could just "know god" what is the point in an instruction manual?
He asked that we make the instruction manual to help people like me who wants to understand how to thank God for his gift.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger s**t [from God]?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2014, 10:37:24 AM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

emphasis added

How do you know this?
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2014, 10:47:15 AM »
He asked that we make the instruction manual to help people like me who wants to understand how to thank God for his gift.
Did that violate anyone's free will?

Presumably, in order to ask that an instruction manual be made, god had to make his existence known.

Or is it somehow possible to convince someone to write a book telling others how to give thanks to you without revealing to them that you exist?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2014, 11:20:06 AM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.
How does that differ from there being no god?
If there was no God I wouldn't be able to live like I do.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2014, 11:22:37 AM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.
How does that differ from there being no god?
If there was no God I wouldn't be able to live like I do.

Sure you could, you could still go to a place of worship and do your thang. If there were no santa would christmas still be the same for children who believe in santa?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2014, 11:26:14 AM »

Quote
So let's say you own a restaurant (in this Example you are God and the restaurant is heaven) The difference between you and God is that God cannot lie. If he says there is something on the plate, there is something on the plate. Let's say I look around and see many people eating of plates that looks empty for me. i ask them what is going on and they assure me that there is something on the plate. I am free to choose, believe in the restaurant manager and see what's in the plate or don't and leave the place. I would not want to pay the bill and will be sad and hungry outside the restaurant where the party is going on. (just like heaven and hell)

First of all you can physically see that the plate is empty. 

The rest is not comprehensible. 

Hell is an eternal fire.  Unless the restaurant closes you can always go back in and try the empty plate.  There is no returning from hell.

I think you've had too much FALSE DOCTRINE!

You believe in a cruel God that makes you a cruel man! 


You forgot that there is no time in heaven or hell. So "go back" doesn't make sense. Have you ever hit yourself on one of those sliding glass door? You couldn't physically see it but it was still there.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2014, 11:41:13 AM »
Are you telling god what he can or cannot do?  Are you depriving god of his free will to choose whether or not to ever lie?
Or does 'intentionally saying and/or communicating something that is not true' not lying when god does it?
You are right. I shouldn't have used "can" It's more like a "won't" because he chose freely to always tell the truth.

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In what way is this scenario superior to one where you actually saw food on the plate?  In what way does actually seeing the food in front of you and others violate your free will to decide whether or not to leave the restaurant?  Or violate your free will to decide whether or not to believe the restaurant manager - with the way you are describing it, would you not have the free will to choose to believe that there is no food on those plates despite being told otherwise?
That's exactly the thing. You are less free to make the choice of the food being on the plate if you see it. Just like you are less free to not believe that I have a car once you ride in it. Could you still believe there is no food if you see it? If so then you don't need to believe what the owner tells you, you don't even need the owner to tell you anything.
You're worth more than my time