Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 10277 times)

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Offline stuffin

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2014, 07:51:56 PM »
They use to make us practice eating (imaginary) food in the Marine Corps.

Yup, they would march us into the mess hall just before lunch with all the smells of the food cooking.  Didn't get breakfast, we hadn't eaten since the night before. We would walk through the chow line and get pretend food on our trays (steak, mashed taters, all kinds of good food), then we sat down at tables and the Drill Instructors would shout commands to cut a piece of meat and place it in our mouths, and then we would all chew the (imaginary) piece of meat 26 times and swallow in unison. After eating our imaginary lunch (about 20 minutes worth) the real food would come out onto the chow line, it was at this point the Drill Instructors would get us up, march us to the nearest swamp and proceed to put our dicks in the dirt.

Funny, but somehow that memory reminded me of God.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2014, 08:34:49 AM »
They use to make us practice eating (imaginary) food in the Marine Corps.....

Did they ever explain why?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2014, 09:00:57 AM »
Did they ever explain why?

Maybe they took "eating is for the weak" too seriously?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2014, 07:04:54 PM »
Sorry to jump into this thread so late, but there's one thing I don't understand which I'm not sure has been specifically asked:

You say that a person choosing to believe in god based on actual proof that he exists would mean that he is, therefore a slave rather than having a relationship based on free will.

Does this mean that somehow knowing that a person you have a close relationship with (parents, spouses and such) makes you their slave just because you know for a fact that they exist?

I can sort of understand your argument about free will if I really squint my brain, but I still don't get how knowledge of god's existence would automatically make you his slave if you then decided to seek a relationship.
I don't think the knowledge of God's existence will make you his slave.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2014, 07:29:44 PM »
Luk, are you prepared to take part in an experiment on belief with me?
Of course. Tell me there is a book next to you and I will believe you.

Thank you for agreeing to the experiment.

I'm not going to ask you to believe there is a book next to me.  Its trivial.  What I am going to ask you to believe is this.

I want you to believe there is a live, hungry tiger loose in your bedroom.

That's it.  Let me know how you get on.
Ok. How do you know that?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2014, 08:42:44 PM »
Sorry to jump into this thread so late, but there's one thing I don't understand which I'm not sure has been specifically asked:

You say that a person choosing to believe in god based on actual proof that he exists would mean that he is, therefore a slave rather than having a relationship based on free will.

Does this mean that somehow knowing that a person you have a close relationship with (parents, spouses and such) makes you their slave just because you know for a fact that they exist?

I can sort of understand your argument about free will if I really squint my brain, but I still don't get how knowledge of god's existence would automatically make you his slave if you then decided to seek a relationship.
I don't think the knowledge of God's existence will make you his slave.
There are people in the world (for example, many of the atheists here that you are talking to) that do not possess this knowledge of god's existence.  Again, for purposes of this thread, we are assuming that god does, in fact, exist.  Presumably, some of the people who lack this knowledge of god's existence do so because they feel that there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that god exists.  And again, we are asserting, for purposes of this thread, that the factual truth is that god actually exists.  And...some of those people have actively sought out godWanted to know god; to experience god; to find comfort in god...

Surely god (that we are assuming does, in fact, exist in this thread) is privy to this information.  It's god, The Unquestioned Lord and Master of All RealityTM!!!  He knows everything...he can do anything...he knows who is seeking him, and how this person can be granted knowledge of his existence (let alone begin any kind of relationship with him).

But there are those who do not hear.  There are those who seek and do not find.

If god wants us to know that he exists (which, in this thread, is a fact of reality), then why does he not make his existence unquestionably known?  You initially said 'free will', but your response above rejects that answer.

Lukvance, you started this thread under the premise that god does, in fact, exist and that he does, in fact, obscure his existence.  You are trying to simultaneously defend that premise that god obscures his existence to protect our free will and that god does not obscure his existence.  Both of those positions cannot be simultaneously true.  They cannot be.  It is nonsensical.  You have to pick just one.

Does god obscure his existence?  If so, why?  If not, present the evidence.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2014, 04:32:50 PM »
Does god obscure his existence?  If so, why?  If not, present the evidence.
God does not obscure his existence. I looked for him and found him. Plus, I am not the only one who has found him.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2014, 06:26:11 PM »
Does god obscure his existence?  If so, why?  If not, present the evidence.
God does not obscure his existence. I looked for him and found him. Plus, I am not the only one who has found him.

So, you have to actually look for god, because he is not obvious. Did god not know that you wanted to find him? IIRC, you said that it took you several years to find god. Why did god remain hidden all that time when you were looking for him? [1]

Finally, after years,  god revealed himself to you, but he still remains hidden from other people. Who still have to spend more years looking. In other words, he obscures his existence, but reveals himself to some people when he gets good and damn ready.  And then judges the people who can't [yet] detect his existence. Nice god you have there.  &)
 1. What if you had been hit by a truck before you found him?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2014, 07:48:00 PM »
Does god obscure his existence?  If so, why?  If not, present the evidence.
God does not obscure his existence. I looked for him and found him. Plus, I am not the only one who has found him.

So, you have to actually look for god, because he is not obvious. Did god not know that you wanted to find him? IIRC, you said that it took you several years to find god. Why did god remain hidden all that time when you were looking for him? [1]

Finally, after years,  god revealed himself to you, but he still remains hidden from other people. Who still have to spend more years looking. In other words, he obscures his existence, but reveals himself to some people when he gets good and damn ready.  And then judges the people who can't [yet] detect his existence. Nice god you have there.  &)
 1. What if you had been hit by a truck before you found him?
What are you basis to say that he was hiding?
God knew I was looking for him. I couldn't find him because of my sins. Even today I am sometime not able to hear him because of all the noise made by my sins. But that does not mean that he is here, with me, ALL THE TIME. He never left me since the beginning.

If I died before finding him? I would have found him sooner (in afterlife)
I don't think that God judge the people who can't detect his existence. Why do you? Was it something I said?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2014, 09:59:53 PM »
So, if I would just become a sinner and feel bad about it, I could look for god and I'd have a chance to find him. Have I got that right?

So not only am I an atheist, I am also not a sinner. I don't lie, cheat, steal, lust after my neighbors wife, drive too fast, drink, use drugs, hit kids or twerk. But if I wanted t find god, first I'd have to go through a bad guy routine for awhile, then sort of fix myself a little bit and then god would show up for me.

Got it.

I'd rather be too good for heaven than bad enough for your god. And if there is a hell, it will be willed with a better class of people

You religious folks have no idea how fertile your imaginations are. Each of you is comes up up with some rancid combination of interpretations and justifications that make your acts of piety fit well with what you think your piety should feel like, then you all stand around and pretend you're all doing it the same, when in fact each of you is inventing your own path to your own version of heaven, thanks to your own imagination. While worshiping your own version of your own god.

At least by not being religious I avoid lying to myself about who, what, why and where this god thing is. Which I guess means I'm just too darned nice for heaven. Oh the irony.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2014, 10:08:07 PM »
So, if I would just become a sinner and feel bad about it, I could look for god and I'd have a chance to find him. Have I got that right?.
No. You got it wrong. That is your imagination talking. Nothing related to what I was answering to.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2014, 10:32:50 PM »
So, if I would just become a sinner and feel bad about it, I could look for god and I'd have a chance to find him. Have I got that right?.
No. You got it wrong. That is your imagination talking. Nothing related to what I was answering to.

You use your imagination, I use mine. Seems fair to me.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2014, 02:29:42 AM »
God knew I was looking for him. I couldn't find him because of my sins.

This is utter, circular bullshit. In order to find god you first have to accept that you've been doing wrong in the eyes of god, so you've already accepted that god exists before you come to find him. You didn't "find him", you came to accept that things you do are wrong according to god, which, amazingly enough[1], means you believe there is a god who can be wronged in the first place.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2014, 02:37:32 AM »
So, if I would just become a sinner and feel bad about it, I could look for god and I'd have a chance to find him. Have I got that right?.
No. You got it wrong. That is your imagination talking. Nothing related to what I was answering to.

You use your imagination, I use mine. Seems fair to me.

Ah, but using his imagination is exactly what Luk had been doing. In the years he says he was looking for god, he managed to persuade himself there was a god and finally he created an invisible friend - his sub-conscious talked to him. He has obviously read all the of the Jesus stuff in the bible and now his sub-conscious is trained as his god. What he experiences does not need there to be a real, existent god as it can happen in the mind of the person.

Now, Luk, you won't like what I have just typed so, tell us, why is it that you think that your god is a being that exists outside of your head - has a real existence? the above explains a lot about believers - especially how they all have different ideas of what god is like and so forth as well as differences in doctrine. Its also explains how people, when they say they have heard from their god that they should do this or that thing, thsi is always in accord with what they would really like to do.

So, how about it, Luk?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2014, 04:08:24 AM »
Luk, are you prepared to take part in an experiment on belief with me?
Of course.

Thank you for agreeing to the experiment.

I want you to believe there is a live, hungry tiger loose in your bedroom.

That's it.  Let me know how you get on.
Ok.

Tell me how your life has changed, now you have this belief.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2014, 10:59:11 AM »
Ok. How do you know that?

That is an excellent question to ask, and I feel everyone in general should be asking that question a lot more. 

But I find it highly ironic that you ask that of us and never once apply it to your own, strange beliefs.  Even more ironic because you make all these proposterous claims and never answer how you know they are so. 

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #103 on: May 02, 2014, 11:08:26 AM »
But if I wanted t find god, first I'd have to go through a bad guy routine for awhile, then sort of fix myself a little bit and then god would show up for me.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I've hit my 5th little old lady, tonight. Now I plan to get raving drunk and catch herpes and drive home naked in the car, and run down a few parking meters.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2014, 01:17:31 PM »
What are you basis to say that he was hiding?
God knew I was looking for him. I couldn't find him because of my sins. Even today I am sometime not able to hear him because of all the noise made by my sins. But that does not mean that he is here, with me, ALL THE TIME. He never left me since the beginning.
Is there a typo in those last two sentences?  I can't make sense of it - it's like you're saying that he's not always with you, but he has never left you.

Quote
I don't think that God judge the people who can't detect his existence. Why do you? Was it something I said?
Well, it's not so much what you said, but what several hundreds of thousand or millions of other self-purported Christians either imply or directly say:

God does not obscure his existence. I looked for him and found him. Plus, I am not the only one who has found him.
You know, some of those other people who have apparently found him.  Maybe if all of you people who have found god had something like a consistent, non-contradictory view of what you all have found it would give a little more credence to the idea that you aren't all just making up a bunch of bullsh*t.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #105 on: May 02, 2014, 02:08:12 PM »
So let's say you own a restaurant (in this Example you are God and the restaurant is heaven) The difference between you and God is that God cannot lie. If he says there is something on the plate, there is something on the plate. Let's say I look around and see many people eating of plates that looks empty for me. i ask them what is going on and they assure me that there is something on the plate. I am free to choose, believe in the restaurant manager and see what's in the plate or don't and leave the place. I would not want to pay the bill and will be sad and hungry outside the restaurant where the party is going on. (just like heaven and hell)

How does one know that god can not lie or does not lie?  Remember I am not a believer that god hopes to will eventually find my way to him.

The way I determine if someone is telling the truth is I listen to them.  If I can not verify they are even real this makes evaluating their truthfulness difficult.  So I now decide read what other people think of him.  I find that no one has had a credible conversation with the guy. 

So now I am left with partial information, to make a decision that will result in eternal torment with only the words of bronze age writers to make the decision with.  How is this free will.  I am not fully informed and forced to make a decision that will result in my eternal torment. 

Hypothetical, Should I let my son walk through a door to room filled with poisonous gas?

This kid he does not know tells him at school is poisonous gas in the master bedroom of our house.  My son says I don't believe you .(meanwhile I have filled the master bedroom with a deadly instant toxin)  Now my son gets home he walks up to me and tells me the story about the Toxic gas I just stare at him and say nothing.  He says that he thinks it is a rediculous story and proceeds to the door.  I know it is true, I set it up, I know there is no evidence that a danger exists and I refuse to tell him.   He walks into the room and dies.  Did my son have enough information to make an informed decision was he able to exercise free will? 

Of course he did, some kid at school told him an unlikely story, I did not confirm or deny it.  He should have known that the toxin was present.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 02:13:55 PM by epidemic »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2014, 02:19:48 PM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.
How does that differ from there being no god?
If there was no God I wouldn't be able to live like I do.

If that was the case, why can you not apply the exact same argument to any of the thousands of other gods mankind has worshipped?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #107 on: May 02, 2014, 02:22:24 PM »
Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.
Why?  Who does that benefit?
Because it is better to "serve" God without being his slave. It benefits you and him, it's a better relation.


Your silly Bible stories which have this God character show up and interact with people and they disobey him anyway invalids your entire argument.

"Knows exists" does not equal "Utterly Enslaved"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #108 on: May 02, 2014, 02:31:29 PM »
I told you that he exist. You have the knowledge of his existence. You're just not convinced yet.

No. I have knowledge that you believe in a god and you think he exists. This is no more convincing to me than a follower of another deity declaring "Shiva exists...therefore you have knowledge of her existence" is to you.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2014, 02:34:13 PM »
Also, all lies are based on belief.

B
I
N
G
O

Yes, and what method can a person use to separate lies, even unintentional lies, from truth?

Hard evidence.

Guess what you are lacking? Hard evidence.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #110 on: May 02, 2014, 02:42:43 PM »
They use to make us practice eating (imaginary) food in the Marine Corps.....

Did they ever explain why?

The reason for why is obvious to me, and quite insidious. It is to get you used to following orders even if they are in direct conflict with reality; to put chain of command as more important than your actual senses.

The dicks in the dirt thing is less obvious, but I recon it is to have it drilled into you that orders are more important than any discomfort or sense of propriety you have instilled in you.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #111 on: May 02, 2014, 02:49:23 PM »
So, if I would just become a sinner and feel bad about it, I could look for god and I'd have a chance to find him. Have I got that right?.
No. You got it wrong. That is your imagination talking. Nothing related to what I was answering to.

You use your imagination, I use mine. Seems fair to me.

Ah, but using his imagination is exactly what Luk had been doing. In the years he says he was looking for god, he managed to persuade himself there was a god and finally he created an invisible friend - his sub-conscious talked to him. He has obviously read all the of the Jesus stuff in the bible and now his sub-conscious is trained as his god. What he experiences does not need there to be a real, existent god as it can happen in the mind of the person.

Now, Luk, you won't like what I have just typed so, tell us, why is it that you think that your god is a being that exists outside of your head - has a real existence? the above explains a lot about believers - especially how they all have different ideas of what god is like and so forth as well as differences in doctrine. Its also explains how people, when they say they have heard from their god that they should do this or that thing, thsi is always in accord with what they would really like to do.

So, how about it, Luk?

That's exactly why I said what I did. He, and all believers, have to make up their god. So I have to play pretend too, or there will be nothing for me to wrap my head around regarding this belief thingy.

Christians either make everything up and then pretend/think they understand god and religion, or they memorize stuff someone else made up, but then they still have to pretend/think they understand religion because there isn't actually anything there to understand. That's why religion, especially christianity, has no consistency. Because coherence isn't possible when there is nothing real to base it on.

The only time christians agree on something is when they are disagreeing with non-christians. That's why the fundies can rant on and on about evolution being a theory, because that's something they can sink their teeth in to. They may disagree with evolution, but at least it is real, which means that their rants can be based on something actual rather than something concocted. Sure, they sound silly, but at least their desperation comes from having to combine reality with their beliefs. Something that believers don't have to deal with much otherwise, because usually they can just make it all up and hence they can make it fit in their heads easily.

Luk doesn't fall that a far down the rabbit hole, since he's catholic, but it is just a matter of degree. 100% of his religion is made up, and his task is to accept it lock, stock and barrel despite the fact that it matches nothing in reality. Everything he claims confirms that observation.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2014, 02:57:05 PM »
Of course, a study in Patristics, the history of the Church Father say up to 450CE, shows how much fun they all had arguing the toss over this or that doctrine based on bible verses and so forth. Admittedly it took until the medieval period before the got round to working out how many angels could stand on the head of a pin but that's digressing.

The thing is that for any religion with a holy book, most of the doctrine is devised by men who then use the book to justify what their doctrine is and not the other way round.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2014, 05:45:35 AM »
God knew I was looking for him. I couldn't find him because of my sins. Even today I am sometime not able to hear him because of all the noise made by my sins. But that does not mean that he is here, with me, ALL THE TIME. He never left me since the beginning.

So god is around.....but a lot of the time you cannot see or hear him.  Sorry Luk, but that means he is hiding.  Remember, this is GOD.  If he wanted you to see him - all the time - that would happen.  It doesn't.  I'm guessing YOU would like god with you all the time?  So if you can't see god, that's the way god wants it.  He hides.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2014, 07:41:34 AM »
LukeVance,

Quote
Hypothetical, Should I let my son walk through a door to room filled with poisonous gas?

This kid he does not know tells him at school is poisonous gas in the master bedroom of our house.  My son says I don't believe you .(meanwhile I have filled the master bedroom with a deadly instant toxin)  Now my son gets home he walks up to me and tells me the story about the Toxic gas I just stare at him and say nothing.  He says that he thinks it is a rediculous story and proceeds to the door.  I know it is true, I set it up, I know there is no evidence that a danger exists and I refuse to tell him.   He walks into the room and dies.  Did my son have enough information to make an informed decision was he able to exercise free will? 

Of course he did, some kid at school told him an unlikely story, I did not confirm or deny it.  He should have known that the toxin was present.

in my hypothetical situation wouldn't I be criminally liable for not intervening on my sons incorrect belief?

Offline Boots

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger s**t [from God]?
« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2014, 08:53:04 AM »
Does god obscure his existence?  If so, why?  If not, present the evidence.
God does not obscure his existence. I looked for him and found him. Plus, I am not the only one who has found him.

How many folks who sincerely look/looked for him would need to say "I did not find him" to convince you that he does, in fact, obscure his existence?  (put me in that tally, btw)
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces