Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 11271 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #783 on: June 21, 2014, 12:30:18 PM »
As I am trying to explain to you and defiance. It is not that it's God who is hiding, It's you who doesn't know what to look for. Once you know what you are looking for (and your conscience told you it wasn't too much to ask) I will be easier to "find" God. Unfortunately for you, my experience didn't involve me particularly looking for him. I understand that people are looking without finding and that people are finding with just faith. There are also people like mother theresa who lives for christ without ever talking to him.


As a door to door salesman of magical products, I'm going to use this same argument on you when I come to your door. I will just tell you what to look for. When I do, will you buy? You won't will you? Muslims and Mormons could try the same thing. They all fail for the same reason. "Conscience" and your head-voice are not sound reasons for thinking a "God" thing is there b/c that is not an explanation. It is an appeal to own ignorance and credulity.

See, you are that salesman. You are asking us to believe (buy) the theology you are selling and we are asking for demonstrable evidence. And instead of providing that evidence you obfuscate, change the subject, dance around the issue, use irrational arguments, and make up hocus pocus to avoid admitting that you have no evidence. All you have are more claims, and every religion or con-artist has those.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 12:32:48 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #784 on: June 23, 2014, 02:01:36 PM »
See, you are that salesman. You are asking us to believe (buy) the theology you are selling and we are asking for demonstrable evidence. And instead of providing that evidence you obfuscate, change the subject, dance around the issue, use irrational arguments, and make up hocus pocus to avoid admitting that you have no evidence. All you have are more claims, and every religion or con-artist has those.
See the picture on the left? there evidence No1 that God is not hiding. See those words that you a re reading? There evidence No2 that God is not hiding.
The salesman that you talk about. Is he trying to sell me something that I don't need? If so the I won't buy it.
But let's say that the salesman sells EVERYTHING.
Which situation is the best for me. Knowing what I need in my house or listening to all the catalog from the salesman.
Right now, what you (people in this forum) are doing is browsing and dismiss all the product presented to you without knowing what you want.
Let's say that you know what you need (in this instance examples of what would make you accept that God isn't hiding from you) then it will be easier to evolve the discussion.
You're worth more than my time

Online Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #785 on: June 23, 2014, 04:26:54 PM »
See, you are that salesman. You are asking us to believe (buy) the theology you are selling and we are asking for demonstrable evidence. And instead of providing that evidence you obfuscate, change the subject, dance around the issue, use irrational arguments, and make up hocus pocus to avoid admitting that you have no evidence. All you have are more claims, and every religion or con-artist has those.
See the picture on the left? there evidence No1 that God is not hiding. See those words that you a re reading? There evidence No2 that God is not hiding.
The salesman that you talk about. Is he trying to sell me something that I don't need? If so the I won't buy it.
But let's say that the salesman sells EVERYTHING.
Which situation is the best for me. Knowing what I need in my house or listening to all the catalog from the salesman.
Right now, what you (people in this forum) are doing is browsing and dismiss all the product presented to you without knowing what you want.
Let's say that you know what you need (in this instance examples of what would make you accept that God isn't hiding from you) then it will be easier to evolve the discussion.
Alright, what I need to see that god isn't hiding, is to prove it exists with scientific evidence.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #786 on: June 23, 2014, 05:48:06 PM »
What, a photograph of a actor playing a fictional character is not enough to prove a god exists?

Quick someone post a pic of Thor. Then he will be real!  :-*
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #787 on: June 23, 2014, 06:55:06 PM »
Hanuman!

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #788 on: June 23, 2014, 08:44:01 PM »
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

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Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #789 on: June 24, 2014, 04:26:33 PM »
See, you are that salesman. You are asking us to believe (buy) the theology you are selling and we are asking for demonstrable evidence. And instead of providing that evidence you obfuscate, change the subject, dance around the issue, use irrational arguments, and make up hocus pocus to avoid admitting that you have no evidence. All you have are more claims, and every religion or con-artist has those.
See the picture on the left? there evidence No1 that God is not hiding. See those words that you a re reading? There evidence No2 that God is not hiding.
The salesman that you talk about. Is he trying to sell me something that I don't need? If so the I won't buy it.
But let's say that the salesman sells EVERYTHING.
Which situation is the best for me. Knowing what I need in my house or listening to all the catalog from the salesman.
Right now, what you (people in this forum) are doing is browsing and dismiss all the product presented to you without knowing what you want.
Let's say that you know what you need (in this instance examples of what would make you accept that God isn't hiding from you) then it will be easier to evolve the discussion.

This is just about the dumbest rationalization I have heard. Your avatar is "evidence" of god? Your words are "evidence" of god? No. I'm sorry. Your CLAIMS are not evidence (just as Muslim claims are not evidence). And your saying so doesn't make it so. So stop this childish bullshit of acting as though we should just take your word for it, and be gullible like you were.

As I said before you don't have evidence. You have claims! And those claims have not been backed up with actual evidence. So you have not met your burden of proof (just like the salesman at the door selling "miracle water" has not met his burden until he shows demonstrable independently verifiable evidence).

Now, the question pertaining to the salesman at your door has to do with the method we should use to determine if he was selling nonsense or not (i.e. - if he was selling a true product, as advertised, or nonsense). Would you buy his product if he used irrational arguments, obfuscations, confirmation bias, and refused to put forth sound demonstrable evidence??

We are not buying your product; just like you wouldn't buy the salesman's product if he tried the same tactics of argument that you are using here. See your double standard yet?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 04:28:33 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #790 on: June 25, 2014, 04:09:55 AM »
But let's say that the salesman sells EVERYTHING.
Which situation is the best for me. Knowing what I need in my house or listening to all the catalog from the salesman.
Right now, what you (people in this forum) are doing is browsing and dismiss all the product presented to you without knowing what you want.

Better yet, let's make the analogy exact.  The salesman not only sells everything, but - through his infallible brain that knows everything - he knows exactly which items I need from his huge catalogue.  He knows which sales techniques are most likely to get me to buy.  He can put together the perfect sales pitch, ideally suited to me.

And - let's not forget - this salesman's dearest wish, because of his all-encompassing love for me, is to make sure that I "buy" what he is selling.  He has not constraints on his resources or time, and so there is no conceivable reason for him NOT to present me with the bespoke sales pitch that (he knows) exactly meets my needs and gives me all the things I am after.

Let's say that you know what you need (in this instance examples of what would make you accept that God isn't hiding from you) then it will be easier to evolve the discussion.
What you are suggesting here is that instead of the salesman coming to us direct, we try to communicate to you what we want, that you will pass on to the salesman.  Two people with finite and fallible brains, people who - as we have established - have difficulty communicating because of language and translation issues.  Efficient?  Nope.  Effective?  Nope. 

And - as I've said above - totally pointless since the salesman already knows all the information you are asking us to now tell you.  The salesman could convey that information to you, with far less chance of miscommunication, and at the same time provide all the answers so that you could pass it on to us.  Still not the most eficient or effective process, but a marked improvement on what YOU are suggesting happens.

But the salesman giving YOU the information WE need doesn't happen either.  The omnipotent salesman does indeed just slam the catalogue on the table and say "sort it out yourself", exactly the scenario that you decry as being bad.  For a salesman whose fondest wish is that we "buy" what he is selling, he is making a terrible, terrible job of it - to the extent that I have no confidence whatsoever that he gives the tiniest toss whether I "buiy" from him or not.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #791 on: June 25, 2014, 10:04:24 AM »
The problem here is that there is no salesman,,,he only exists in a theists imagination.  Magically he feeds information to the theist,and only tells each one what they need to,or want to hear. Have you ever noticed this  "salesman" never tells a theist they are doing something wrong?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #792 on: June 25, 2014, 11:31:39 AM »
^^^^True dat. Matter of fact the "salesman" often tells people that the very bad, very wrong things they are doing are just fine and dandy with him.

People who drown their children because the kids have demons inside them, people who beat gay teenagers to death, people who ban life-saving science research or information, people who crash planes into buildings, people who kidnap girls from school and sell them into slavery, people who execute folks for following a different religion.

All think that the "salesman" approves, or even requires that they do that stuff. Of course, it turns out that they want to do that stuff, and it just so happens that, lucky for them,  the "salesman" agrees with them.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #793 on: June 25, 2014, 07:43:14 PM »
Would you buy his product if he used irrational arguments, obfuscations, confirmation bias, and refused to put forth sound demonstrable evidence??
Do I know if I need the product? Apparently you already know that you don't want the product so you invent " irrational arguments, obfuscations, confirmation bias, and refused to put forth sound demonstrable evidence" from his words so you have "reasons" to not buy his product because you already know you don't need it.

Quote
We are not buying your product; just like you wouldn't buy the salesman's product if he tried the same tactics of argument that you are using here. See your double standard yet?
I am not selling anything. I am simply answering question that someone asked me.
You're worth more than my time

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #794 on: June 25, 2014, 07:46:20 PM »
Luk you have refused to put forward ANY evidence,and have yet to provide evidence to back up ANY claim you have made.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #795 on: June 25, 2014, 07:53:28 PM »
Lukvance, you are trying to sell something: you trying to sell the idea that your god is real, true, physically exists somewhere besides inside your brain, and is not hiding.

Like the guy selling the magical products, however, you have opened up your briefcase and there is nothing inside. Now you are wondering why we don't think you have anything to sell.

Like 12 monkeys said, you have not presented anything resembling evidence, you keep telling us to look at the samples in your empty briefcase.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #796 on: June 25, 2014, 08:06:06 PM »
Lukvance, you are trying to sell something: you trying to sell the idea that your god is real, true, physically exists somewhere besides inside your brain, and is not hiding.
Like the guy selling the magical products, however, you have opened up your briefcase and there is nothing inside. Now you are wondering why we don't think you have anything to sell.
Like 12 monkeys said, you have not presented anything resembling evidence, you keep telling us to look at the samples in your empty briefcase.
Keep telling you that. Maybe it will become right one day who knows!?
In the meantime, I am not selling anything. Just answering questions.
You're worth more than my time

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #797 on: June 25, 2014, 08:12:17 PM »
Answer them with some reference to reality please
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #798 on: June 25, 2014, 08:18:08 PM »
Would you buy his product if he used irrational arguments, obfuscations, confirmation bias, and refused to put forth sound demonstrable evidence??
Do I know if I need the product? Apparently you already know that you don't want the product so you invent " irrational arguments, obfuscations, confirmation bias, and refused to put forth sound demonstrable evidence" from his words so you have "reasons" to not buy his product because you already know you don't need it.

And once again you are attempting the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. It is YOU (or the salesman at the door) who are arguing that we "need" your product. But you have not demonstrated that! You just keep ASSERTING it. The burden is on you to demonstrate that I "need" your hocus pocus theology.

Secondly, I have not "invented" anything. If a salesman comes to your door and uses the types of irrational arguments you keep attempting, you would not buy. And that is what we are doing - not buying b/c you have not met your burden of proof.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, you haven't even demonstrated that there IS a product (a "God", "Jesus", afterlife, etc) in any way similar to what you would require of a salesman at your door. So your hypocrisy has no bounds it seems. As others have noted, your 'suitcase' is empty and yet you are still asking others, "Are you ready to believe yet?" Sorry, no sound evidence = no sale. But I have some swampland in Arizona I am selling really cheap! It's worth millions! Are you buying?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 08:29:51 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #799 on: June 26, 2014, 11:36:48 AM »
Whatever you want. Does anyone still have questions about God and how he feel God is hiding?
If not, I will unsubscribe from this thread It seems that all questions have been answered.
You're worth more than my time

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #800 on: June 26, 2014, 11:48:56 AM »
Whatever you want. Does anyone still have questions about God and how he feel God is hiding?
If not, I will unsubscribe from this thread It seems that all questions have been answered.

There it is for all to see Luk. You're attempting to make rationalizations (just like the salesman at the door) for why your alleged "God" is invisible. But if the salesman came to your door, trying to convince you to buy an alleged magic product, you wouldn't accept such rationalizations and you certainly wouldn't hand over your money (just like we are not buying your claims). The salesman could use your same type of arguments, while opening his briefcase to show NOTHING inside, and he could use your same rationalizations to argue why you don't need to see the product..."but hey, hand over your money!" and you wouldn't accept it. So again, stop your double standard.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #801 on: June 26, 2014, 12:09:03 PM »
There it is for all to see Luk. You're attempting to make rationalizations (just like the salesman at the door) for why your alleged "God" is invisible. But if the salesman came to your door, trying to convince you to buy an alleged magic product, you wouldn't accept such rationalizations and you certainly wouldn't hand over your money (just like we are not buying your claims). The salesman could use your same type of arguments, while opening his briefcase to show NOTHING inside, and he could use your same rationalizations to argue why you don't need to see the product..."but hey, hand over your money!" and you wouldn't accept it. So again, stop your double standard.
I am not selling anything. And you are not looking to buy anything either. Stop being so hypocrite.
Someone asked me something, he called me on the phone and asked me for information he didn't have. I gave him that information. If he does not like the information I gave him that is his problem, not yours.
I am not selling anything to someone who isn't looking to buy.
You're worth more than my time

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #802 on: June 26, 2014, 12:22:47 PM »
Information is only information if it is correct.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #803 on: June 26, 2014, 01:01:30 PM »
There it is for all to see Luk. You're attempting to make rationalizations (just like the salesman at the door) for why your alleged "God" is invisible. But if the salesman came to your door, trying to convince you to buy an alleged magic product, you wouldn't accept such rationalizations and you certainly wouldn't hand over your money (just like we are not buying your claims). The salesman could use your same type of arguments, while opening his briefcase to show NOTHING inside, and he could use your same rationalizations to argue why you don't need to see the product..."but hey, hand over your money!" and you wouldn't accept it. So again, stop your double standard.
I am not selling anything. And you are not looking to buy anything either. Stop being so hypocrite.
Someone asked me something, he called me on the phone and asked me for information he didn't have. I gave him that information. If he does not like the information I gave him that is his problem, not yours.
I am not selling anything to someone who isn't looking to buy.

WRONG. You are trying your sell your theology to us here (at our doorstep and our home online which is our website called WWGHAF). You came to us, remember? So you are the who came to our 'door' (in the analogy) and are trying to convince us that your religion, theology, belief is true. But all you come back with is more CLAIMS and obfuscations - not sound evidence, not valid reasoning, just claim after claim (as if that will cut it, but it doesn't). So your 'suitcase' is empty and yet you keep trying to convince us that we should still believe (i.e. - hand over our money).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 01:03:55 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #804 on: June 28, 2014, 01:10:57 AM »
WRONG. You are trying your sell your theology to us here (at our doorstep and our home online which is our website called WWGHAF). You came to us, remember? So you are the who came to our 'door' (in the analogy) and are trying to convince us that your religion, theology, belief is true. But all you come back with is more CLAIMS and obfuscations - not sound evidence, not valid reasoning, just claim after claim (as if that will cut it, but it doesn't). So your 'suitcase' is empty and yet you keep trying to convince us that we should still believe (i.e. - hand over our money).
You know why my suitcase sound like that? Because I am not selling. You invented your salesman and started a discussion with him, hoping that he would convince you to buy something. But this is all in your head. I don't sell belief. I GIVE answers, free to those who dare ask, for those who are looking for answers.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #805 on: June 28, 2014, 03:23:17 AM »
I GIVE answers, free to those who dare ask, for those who are looking for answers.

Here's an answer.

"Because the mome raths outgrabe"

It's a useless answer, because  it doesn't provide any useful information.

Here's another answer.

"Hidden underground on the third moon of The second planet of Rigel VII"

It's also a useless answer, because there is no way it can be checked.  There is no evidence for it.

Perhaps when you start giving answers that are not as useless as the two examples I gave, your may accomplish something here.  Until then, please don't kid yourself that you are being of any assistance to us, or imparting anything valid or useful.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #806 on: June 28, 2014, 11:17:57 AM »
WRONG. You are trying your sell your theology to us here (at our doorstep and our home online which is our website called WWGHAF). You came to us, remember? So you are the who came to our 'door' (in the analogy) and are trying to convince us that your religion, theology, belief is true. But all you come back with is more CLAIMS and obfuscations - not sound evidence, not valid reasoning, just claim after claim (as if that will cut it, but it doesn't). So your 'suitcase' is empty and yet you keep trying to convince us that we should still believe (i.e. - hand over our money).
You know why my suitcase sound like that? Because I am not selling. You invented your salesman and started a discussion with him, hoping that he would convince you to buy something. But this is all in your head. I don't sell belief. I GIVE answers, free to those who dare ask, for those who are looking for answers.
answers without back- up that contain evidence are just you pulling crap out of your back-side
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #807 on: June 28, 2014, 04:36:02 PM »
WRONG. You are trying your sell your theology to us here (at our doorstep and our home online which is our website called WWGHAF). You came to us, remember? So you are the who came to our 'door' (in the analogy) and are trying to convince us that your religion, theology, belief is true. But all you come back with is more CLAIMS and obfuscations - not sound evidence, not valid reasoning, just claim after claim (as if that will cut it, but it doesn't). So your 'suitcase' is empty and yet you keep trying to convince us that we should still believe (i.e. - hand over our money).
You know why my suitcase sound like that? Because I am not selling. You invented your salesman and started a discussion with him, hoping that he would convince you to buy something. But this is all in your head. I don't sell belief. I GIVE answers, free to those who dare ask, for those who are looking for answers.

Now you're just lying again, because you have in fact done far more than just "answering questions" here. You have made bald empty assertions, rationalizations, preaching, and "Because I say so" statements in an attempt to show that your beliefs/theologies/interpretations are the correct ones. So stop fooling yourself and acting as if you're Mr. innocent question answerer. You came to our door. We didn't come to yours.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan