Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 9365 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #696 on: May 26, 2014, 08:22:52 PM »
Maybe I wasn't clear
there seem to be a mistake here. Violate our free will to see him or not see him. Not violate our free will to do what he says or not.
It means that The angel who saw god still had the free will to chose him or not, we agree on that. If god wanted he could have made them stay and removed their free will. But he chose not to. I hope we agree on that too.
God is not visible by those who don't want to see him. He could force them so see him but he choose not to. (you agree?)
IF MY WILL IS TO NOT SEE GOD AND GOD FORCE ME TO SEE HIM, IT WILL VIOLATE MY WILL. You seem to think that my statement is something else. YOU DON'T SEE GOD BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE/your free will (of not seeing him).
God can do anything, you can't. You are not more powerful than God.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #697 on: May 26, 2014, 08:34:56 PM »

Quote
If god wants certain people to choose him, those people will. If he does not want certain people to choose him, they will not.
If God want the people to chose him freely they will choose him freely.


How does even make sense? If god wants someone to choose him freely, then he would have no control over whether that person will choose him. If, on the other hand, god's wanting someone to choose him means (as you seem to say here) that the person WILL chose him, then free will has just gone out of the window. You can't have it both ways.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #698 on: May 26, 2014, 08:49:47 PM »

Quote
If god wants certain people to choose him, those people will. If he does not want certain people to choose him, they will not.
If God want the people to chose him freely they will choose him freely.


How does even make sense? If god wants someone to choose him freely, then he would have no control over whether that person will choose him. If, on the other hand, god's wanting someone to choose him means (as you seem to say here) that the person WILL chose him, then free will has just gone out of the window. You can't have it both ways.
I don't know how you understand that phrase in that way without voluntary dismiss the freely part that comes right after "choosing".
Quote
If god wants someone to choose him freely, then he would have no control over whether that person will choose him
That is exactly what I am saying here.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #699 on: May 27, 2014, 02:31:10 AM »
Luk, your latest idea, that we can't 'see' god unless we choose to - is this Catholic teaching, say in the Catechism, and can you point us to where it comes from so we can read it carefully, please?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #700 on: May 27, 2014, 02:33:39 AM »
Luk, your latest idea, that we can't 'see' god unless we choose to - is this Catholic teaching, say in the Catechism, and can you point us to where it comes from so we can read it carefully, please?
It's the idea from the first post. Not my latest. I will look into it tomorrow. Now, time to sleep.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #701 on: May 27, 2014, 02:56:22 AM »
Yep run along boy.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #702 on: May 27, 2014, 08:16:32 AM »
Maybe I wasn't clear
there seem to be a mistake here. Violate our free will to see him or not see him. Not violate our free will to do what he says or not.
It means that The angel who saw god still had the free will to chose him or not, we agree on that. If god wanted he could have made them stay and removed their free will. But he chose not to. I hope we agree on that too.
God is not visible by those who don't want to see him. He could force them so see him but he choose not to. (you agree?)
IF MY WILL IS TO NOT SEE GOD AND GOD FORCE ME TO SEE HIM, IT WILL VIOLATE MY WILL. You seem to think that my statement is something else. YOU DON'T SEE GOD BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE/your free will (of not seeing him).
God can do anything, you can't. You are not more powerful than God.

Personally I want truth, how can you conclude that I don't want to see god?  The problem is that I see a lack of god and therefore do not believe in him.  There is no free will in my decision to not believe in god.  I have weighed the information at my disposal and have drawn the conclusion peoples claims of god are unlikely at best.  I see little difference between my conclusion that a glass is empty  I don't choose to believe the glass is full of water.  I observe it and see water in it.  I don't choose to believe water is in the glass any more than I choose to not believe in god.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #703 on: May 27, 2014, 09:44:37 AM »
God has already decided who will see him and who will not see him. He knew this before we were even born. If he does not know who will see him and who will not see him, he is not all powerful.

I am more powerful than god. God cannot make himself visible to me.  I have never seen god, and probably will not ever see him. Because I "choose" not to see invisible, immaterial, non-physical magical beings.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #704 on: May 27, 2014, 11:17:23 AM »
I think there are many people who would be quite happy to see god if he existed. It's not necessarily a conscious refusal to see him. I might even agree that, yes, if there were a god, he might have a point when it came to a refusal of showing himself to those who willfully refused to acknowledge him, but, really, most of us are, I think, more interested in knowing the truth than in maintaining disbelief. We are not going around deliberately refusing to see him; many have, in fact, spent considerable time actively looking for him and receiving nothing convincing in return.

 What would god have to lose by making himself known to a person who has simply concluded that he doesn't exist by using the very intellect this being supposedly created him with?

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #705 on: May 27, 2014, 11:22:53 AM »
What would god have to lose by making himself known to a person who has simply concluded that he doesn't exist by using the very intellect this being supposedly created him with?

Maybe having his ego bruised when that person then decides he's not worth worshipping due to all of the abhorrent crap he pulled in the OT?

But you are absolutely right. I don't go around with metaphorical fingers in my ears, going "La la la! I don't hear you, God! La la la!".
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #706 on: May 27, 2014, 11:50:17 AM »
I think there are many people who would be quite happy to see god if he existed. It's not necessarily a conscious refusal to see him. I might even agree that, yes, if there were a god, he might have a point when it came to a refusal of showing himself to those who willfully refused to acknowledge him, but, really, most of us are, I think, more interested in knowing the truth than in maintaining disbelief. We are not going around deliberately refusing to see him; many have, in fact, spent considerable time actively looking for him and receiving nothing convincing in return.

 What would god have to lose by making himself known to a person who has simply concluded that he doesn't exist by using the very intellect this being supposedly created him with?

<style=Lukvance>
There is no harm with god making himself known to a person who has simply concluded that he doesn't exist.  That's why god explicitly makes himself known.  The reason that god doesn't make himself known is to respect your free will.  So you can choose to know him or not.  And it's your choice because god makes himself known, you just have to accept it.  But if he made himself known, he would be removing your free will to known that he makes himself known.  That's why he makes himself known.
</style>
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #707 on: May 27, 2014, 11:53:49 AM »
Agreed,  jynnan tonnix! The truth is the most important thing either that there is or that there is not a god. However with so few people ever having had the chance to make contact with it, the rest of s are stuck with no evidence and little to commend the idea.

According to Luk, our free will would be breached if god popped down for a chat as we would not then be able to decide to accept him or not but it seems that this is making up excuses for the fact that god never shows up. After all, Jesus was happy enough to address large crowds and feed them so the story goes. The people must, for the most part, have chosen to ignore Jesus, though, as the Early Church in Jerusalem was, apparently, very small. Free will was not compromised then and it would not be again.... if there were a being that could put in an appearance that is.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #708 on: May 27, 2014, 12:47:00 PM »
Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves? Or Radiation? My standards of evidence have been met. It is called "separable from fiction through testing"
Alright, if you think you can prove that gravity have an independent mind. I'm listening.

Why did you deliberately avoid the implications of my statement? I never said anything about 'having a mind" I said "separable from fiction." See those words that you quoted...which combination of them gives any indication about gravity having a mind? Are you just devoid of all honesty, or have the intellect of a four year old?, because at this point it has to be one or the other.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Tinyal

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #709 on: May 27, 2014, 01:01:42 PM »
I just wanted to say thank you to all the posters (including Luk - for very different reasons) in this, and similar threads.  As we all know (or highly suspect), neither Luk nor anyone else will ever come up with anything approaching evidence for any god - but observing the process (some of them) go through as they (here, I'm referring to the generic believer, not Luk per se) slowly come to the conclusion that their beliefs make no sense whatever - watching this process play out helps me with my own debates/conversations with believers.

Even with the basic training I had in scientific theory, I've come to realize just how much I don't know about how science works, how evidence is generated (or treated, or recorded), how theories are built, how double-blind tests work, etc etc.

So just because (in my view) there's no chance Luk will ever post honestly (he simply cannot, for if he did he'd realize he's living a lie - and that he cannot approach.  At least, not yet (if ever).) - it still is very educational and frequently entertaining reading all the other posters who go through so much to try to get people to question their own (irrational) beliefs.

So, from this lurker to all - thank you very much!!
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #710 on: May 27, 2014, 03:52:40 PM »
According to Luk, our free will would be breached if god popped down for a chat as we would not then be able to decide to accept him or not
Where do you read that from what I wrote? You keep repeating that again and again. WHY?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #711 on: May 27, 2014, 04:01:06 PM »
Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves? Or Radiation? My standards of evidence have been met. It is called "separable from fiction through testing"
Alright, if you think you can prove that gravity have an independent mind. I'm listening.

Why did you deliberately avoid the implications of my statement? I never said anything about 'having a mind" I said "separable from fiction." See those words that you quoted...which combination of them gives any indication about gravity having a mind? Are you just devoid of all honesty, or have the intellect of a four year old?, because at this point it has to be one or the other.
That's what happen when you don't read the subject you are quoting from. Before your questions "Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves?[...etc]" You quoted me stating  "standards for evidence (for immaterial things) are so high that even yourself cannot follow them" this basically says "there is no way to prove the existence of something immaterial outside of our mind." I wasn't addressing myself to you I was answering median. If you read the discussion properly you wouldn't have made such a mistake.

Yes, absolutely I would ask for demonstrable evidence because such a statement is making reference to a real, actual, Santa Claus that magically comes down the chimney and gives presents to people (just like your claim that this "God" thing actually manifests in reality and heals people). So, your tricks are laid bare for all see. You make claims about some invisible person called "God" that allegedly manifests in corporeal reality by healing people (etc) and as soon as you are asked for evidence of this you jump ship and start talking about what is "in the mind", as if that carries any weight to the discussion - when it doesn't. And really it's a red herring fallacy (and an equivocation fallacy) because we have been asking you for real, actual, demonstrable evidence of this alleged God (uhum...Santa) that allegedly does things in reality (i.e. - effects the physical realm). And merely stating that you can't explain certain things that happen in the world any other way than by a magic God thing is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You cannot explain one mystery by an appeal to an even bigger mystery.
Your standards for evidence (for immaterial things) are so high that even yourself cannot follow them. It is impossible to follow them.
Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves? Or Radiation? My standards of evidence have been met. It is called "separable from fiction through testing"
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #712 on: May 27, 2014, 04:02:55 PM »
I just wanted to say thank you to all the posters (including Luk - for very different reasons) in this, and similar threads.  As we all know (or highly suspect), neither Luk nor anyone else will ever come up with anything approaching evidence for any god - but observing the process (some of them) go through as they (here, I'm referring to the generic believer, not Luk per se) slowly come to the conclusion that their beliefs make no sense whatever - watching this process play out helps me with my own debates/conversations with believers.

Even with the basic training I had in scientific theory, I've come to realize just how much I don't know about how science works, how evidence is generated (or treated, or recorded), how theories are built, how double-blind tests work, etc etc.

So just because (in my view) there's no chance Luk will ever post honestly (he simply cannot, for if he did he'd realize he's living a lie - and that he cannot approach.  At least, not yet (if ever).) - it still is very educational and frequently entertaining reading all the other posters who go through so much to try to get people to question their own (irrational) beliefs.

So, from this lurker to all - thank you very much!!
Have you ever stop and think "Maybe Luk is not the one living a lie, maybe I am?"
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Offline Nam

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #713 on: May 27, 2014, 05:08:19 PM »
^No.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #714 on: May 27, 2014, 06:01:55 PM »
According to Luk, our free will would be breached if god popped down for a chat as we would not then be able to decide to accept him or not
Where do you read that from what I wrote? You keep repeating that again and again. WHY?

First, in this case what you quoted here actually came from Wheels. Though I see that my name shows up as the source of the quote, so not sure what happened.

Anyway, what I said was:
Quote
I think there are many people who would be quite happy to see god if he existed. It's not necessarily a conscious refusal to see him. I might even agree that, yes, if there were a god, he might have a point when it came to a refusal of showing himself to those who willfully refused to acknowledge him, but, really, most of us are, I think, more interested in knowing the truth than in maintaining disbelief. We are not going around deliberately refusing to see him; many have, in fact, spent considerable time actively looking for him and receiving nothing convincing in return.

 What would god have to lose by making himself known to a person who has simply concluded that he doesn't exist by using the very intellect this being supposedly created him with?

Which is not exactly the same thing that you accuse me of stating "over and over".

Not that I disagree with Wheels, here, but if you would address my actual question, I'd appreciate it.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #715 on: May 27, 2014, 06:51:34 PM »
Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves? Or Radiation? My standards of evidence have been met. It is called "separable from fiction through testing"
Alright, if you think you can prove that gravity have an independent mind. I'm listening.

Why did you deliberately avoid the implications of my statement? I never said anything about 'having a mind" I said "separable from fiction." See those words that you quoted...which combination of them gives any indication about gravity having a mind? Are you just devoid of all honesty, or have the intellect of a four year old?, because at this point it has to be one or the other.
That's what happen when you don't read the subject you are quoting from. Before your questions "Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves?[...etc]" You quoted me stating  "standards for evidence (for immaterial things) are so high that even yourself cannot follow them" this basically says "there is no way to prove the existence of something immaterial outside of our mind." I wasn't addressing myself to you I was answering median. If you read the discussion properly you wouldn't have made such a mistake.

Yes, absolutely I would ask for demonstrable evidence because such a statement is making reference to a real, actual, Santa Claus that magically comes down the chimney and gives presents to people (just like your claim that this "God" thing actually manifests in reality and heals people). So, your tricks are laid bare for all see. You make claims about some invisible person called "God" that allegedly manifests in corporeal reality by healing people (etc) and as soon as you are asked for evidence of this you jump ship and start talking about what is "in the mind", as if that carries any weight to the discussion - when it doesn't. And really it's a red herring fallacy (and an equivocation fallacy) because we have been asking you for real, actual, demonstrable evidence of this alleged God (uhum...Santa) that allegedly does things in reality (i.e. - effects the physical realm). And merely stating that you can't explain certain things that happen in the world any other way than by a magic God thing is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You cannot explain one mystery by an appeal to an even bigger mystery.
Your standards for evidence (for immaterial things) are so high that even yourself cannot follow them. It is impossible to follow them.
Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves? Or Radiation? My standards of evidence have been met. It is called "separable from fiction through testing"


Ok, you being completely devoid of honesty it is.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #716 on: May 27, 2014, 08:06:32 PM »
Ok, you being completely devoid of honesty it is.
Where was I dishonest?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #717 on: May 27, 2014, 08:13:46 PM »
According to Luk, our free will would be breached if god popped down for a chat as we would not then be able to decide to accept him or not
Where do you read that from what I wrote? You keep repeating that again and again. WHY?

First, in this case what you quoted here actually came from Wheels. Though I see that my name shows up as the source of the quote, so not sure what happened.
I'm sorry I misquote Here is the correct one :
According to Luk, our free will would be breached if god popped down for a chat as we would not then be able to decide to accept him or not
wheels5894, where do you read that from what I wrote? You keep repeating that again and again. WHY?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #718 on: May 27, 2014, 08:19:42 PM »
What would god have to lose by making himself known to a person who has simply concluded that he doesn't exist by using the very intellect this being supposedly created him with?
God wouldn't have to lose anything. It is the imperfect men who would lose his freedom. And it is not a simple conclusion. The simple conclusion is God exist. Concluding that God doesn't exist takes a good deal of effort. It's like refusing to admit that you are in love to someone when you evidently is. It's possible, not an easy task but possible. It's even possible to hate that person if you wish to conclude that.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #719 on: May 27, 2014, 09:03:55 PM »
How hard is it to conclude that unicorns, witches, elves, giant mutant sea lizards, vampires, werewolves and ghosts don't exist?

Takes me very little effort. I look around and say, "None of those things are real." That's it. And I go on with my life.

In fact, it was the realization that I did not believe in ghosts in high school that truly set me on the path to atheism. I called it my "No Little Ghost, No Big Ghost, No Holy Ghost Revelation". That might end up being a chapter in my book.  :D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #720 on: May 27, 2014, 09:13:01 PM »
What would god have to lose by making himself known to a person who has simply concluded that he doesn't exist by using the very intellect this being supposedly created him with?
God wouldn't have to lose anything. It is the imperfect men who would lose his freedom. And it is not a simple conclusion. The simple conclusion is God exist. Concluding that God doesn't exist takes a good deal of effort. It's like refusing to admit that you are in love to someone when you evidently is. It's possible, not an easy task but possible. It's even possible to hate that person if you wish to conclude that.

Luk, you have to understand that people are wired differently. Some might have a deep, inner need for spirituality and/or religion in their lives, else they feel adrift. unconnected, and unsatisfied. To them, the mystery and wonder of the world around them is so overwhelming in its complexity that they cannot conceive of there not being an intelligent creator. They naturally gravitate toward belief in a deity, and find their sense of comfort and belonging in that.

Others are wired such that they find immense satisfaction in the world of science and observation. Even if the details of how the universe and life within it came to be are as yet incompletely understood, they do not find fear and insecurity in that lack of knowledge. Rather, they find excitement at how much of that knowledge HAS been accumulated and continues to be constantly refined to fit together better and better. There is simply no need for a deity in the way their minds naturally respond to the world around them. Disbelief is NOT some sort of great task they undertake. It is simply the conclusion they reach.

Again, Luk, there is no willful denial going on. It's not a matter of someone refusing to acknowledge something which is actually there. In your example, someone convincing themselves that they are not in love with a person, but rather working to channel any bits of resentment against them into an active hatred. Yes, sometimes this happens (I have seen a couple of really messy divorces where that was seemingly the case). But all the people involved are real, physical, tangible entities with real, physical relationships. But as much as you, or some other believer, might feel that they have that kind of relationship with god, or even  just that god's presence is something undeniably real, that is not true for everyone. It's quite possible to go through life without ever, once, having that sense. It's not a denial of god. It takes no more work and effort than it would take for you to steel yourself against letting faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster gain a foothold in your mind.


Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #721 on: May 27, 2014, 09:47:33 PM »
Luk, you have to understand that people are wired differently. Some might have a deep, inner need for spirituality and/or religion in their lives, else they feel adrift. unconnected, and unsatisfied. To them, the mystery and wonder of the world around them is so overwhelming in its complexity that they cannot conceive of there not being an intelligent creator. They naturally gravitate toward belief in a deity, and find their sense of comfort and belonging in that.

Others are wired such that they find immense satisfaction in the world of science and observation. Even if the details of how the universe and life within it came to be are as yet incompletely understood, they do not find fear and insecurity in that lack of knowledge. Rather, they find excitement at how much of that knowledge HAS been accumulated and continues to be constantly refined to fit together better and better. There is simply no need for a deity in the way their minds naturally respond to the world around them. Disbelief is NOT some sort of great task they undertake. It is simply the conclusion they reach.
I am part of the others. I find immense satisfaction in the world of science and observation. I usually do not find fear and insecurity in that lack of knowledge (but I am capable of fearing the unknown, like in a blind date for example) I find excitement at how much of that knowledge HAS been accumulated and continues to be constantly refined to fit together better and better and how much God did an amazing work organizing all of that.
I understand how people can say no to God after some sort of shortcoming on his part. (usually related to sickness or death)
But the logic is the following. First you feel like there is a superior being. A being that is orchestrating all of that. Then you realize that being is not really there when you need him or in the way you want him to be here. In conclusion you turn your back on this being and start worshiping another one that you know better, yourself or "science".
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #722 on: May 27, 2014, 10:08:24 PM »
Luk what evidence do you have that god exists outside your mind?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #723 on: May 27, 2014, 10:36:15 PM »
You're worth more than my time

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #724 on: May 27, 2014, 10:53:58 PM »
Your evidence is not acceptable to the most primitive standard . what else you got.
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