Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 8092 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2014, 07:07:24 AM »
For me, the definition of God is : the one with all the qualities (the bestest) Maybe yours is different. My logic is based on that definition.
What is yours?

The difference between you and God is that God cannot lie.

So your god is NOT the bestest at something, because I can lie better than he can?

Sounds spurious - but what you are saying is that if asked, your god, and I, might give the following answers to this question......

Woman: "oh, my husband is dead.  Did he suffer?"
Me: "no - he died quickly and peacefully".
God: "Oh yes indeed - he was in horrific pain for hours and hours, screaming all the time.  Morphine didn't help, we had to get the orderlies to hold him down as his eyes dissolved and he prolapsed.  On the plus side though, its all good practice for him in the afterlife, because actually he is now in hell.  Any more questions?"

Praise god, who never lies.  Please explain why that makes him the "bestest"?  Because to me, that potentially makes him quite inferior.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2014, 08:28:37 AM »
For example I tell you my child is angry. You can decide/choose to not trust me and think that she is not angry then you will chose that her anger does not exist even if, in fact, it exist. You will deny the existence of her anger.

Anger is subjective.  Are you saying the existence of your god is subjective?  It sounds like your god is imaginary to me as imaginary things require subjective belief too.

You have put yourself in a position were your "God" subjectively exists.  Existence is not actually subjective.  Your logic is delusional since you have no way of separating fantasy from reality other than picking and choosing what you like and don't like.

If your god does objectively exist and cared that I know of its existence, then I would know.  Something such as your god which subjectively exists has no power and is not a god.

I think we are done here.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2014, 08:41:42 AM »
For me, the definition of God is : the one with all the qualities (the bestest) Maybe yours is different. My logic is based on that definition.
What is yours?

If there is a god, our definitions are irrelevant presumptions that get in the way of understanding what god is.  It puts the cart before the horse.  If we think god is all powerful, then we will interpret our observations of god with that prejudice.  If we think god is good, then we will interpret our observations of god with that prejudice as well.  These beliefs and prejudices will cause incorrect interpretations.  For example, reread genesis with the assumption that god is evil.  If you go in with that assumption, some things will make so much more sense.  Others will not. 

By defining god before looking at the evidence, you are making a conclusion before the reasoning, which is backward.  Rather than having a definition first, I try to base my model of god on observation.  I have observed nothing of god, so my model is that god is nonexistent.  But, if we take the bible as an accurate representation of god, we have a mess.  Look at the actions it says god takes and then decide what he is. 

god in the bible is not coherent or particularly nice or logical.  He is petty, angry, vain and irrational.  He makes ridiculous rules, doles out excessive punishments, and generally behaves like a jerk.  He is not all powerful, nor does he know everything and he certainly is not good.

So, with that in mind, your statement about what would make sense to you and what would be better to you is a reflection of you and your personal preferences.  It has nothing to do with god. For the record, you come off as a more decent person than the god of the bible.


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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2014, 08:55:15 AM »
You call it ignorance I call it refusal to believe. It's the same result, no food in the plate.

No, it is not the same at all.  You are saying not knowing something is freedom.  Not knowing is ignorance.  When people did not know how to make vaccines, they were not freer.  The food is on the plate or it is not.  Your ignorance of which does not make you freer to decide.  It hinders you from knowing reality. 


This kind of freedom is desirable because without it you would be a slave. God want you to choose him freely he does not want you to be his slave.

This does not answer my question.  This just restates what lead to the question. 


I missed a post where you answered some of my questions.  I will reply to it later.

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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2014, 11:26:31 AM »
It just occurred to me that there is a really bizare aspect of this idea that "God" doesn't make its existence objectively known because that would deny us an apparent freedom to choose.  What is bizare is that apparently, everything that does exist would be violating our freedoms (assuming the premise that Lukvance is advancing is true).  The universe is violating our freedom to choose whether or not to believe it exists.  The chair that I am sitting in is violating my freedom to choose whether or not to believe it exists.  Any person who interacts with me is violating my freedom to choose whether or not to believe they exist. 

If making the existence of something known is a violation of free will, then in order to achieve complete freedom shouldn't all humans isolate themselves completely from one another?  Ah but then we will be left with our freedoms violated by the universe.  But wait, didn't "God" create the universe?  So isn't "God" already violating our free will to choose to believe the universe exists or not? 

Am I choosing to believe that the universe exists?  I don't think I have a choice.  I am forced to live my life as if the universe exists.  Of course, I do have the free will to like or dislike things about the universe and I have the free will to behave in the universe based on my decisions.   

So, I"m still pretty confused as to what freedom I am missing?

You know what I do appreciate though, people who interact with me, letting me know they exist instead of hiding in the shadows and judging me.

Lukvance, is your god a creepy stalker?
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2014, 11:57:26 AM »
Sorry but I think this whole discussion has gone the wrong way round.

1. We know that we cannot, routinely, contact god.

2. We know that requests made to him by his slaves servants are routinely ignored, outcomes being predictable without including him in the calculations.

3. Finally, we have believers who say that one only needs faith[1] and one can converse with this god.

So, most people would say that the evidence does not amount to enough to presume the existence of a god. Indeed, worse than that, there is  no evidence at all. So the atheist, looking at the evidence sees that there is not reason to believe. The problem comes with the theist who has invested in belief and then is confronted with the rather too real problem that the evidence on which belief might be based is missing. Sure the bible is there but a lot of third hand accounts of this and that, looking more like Greek myths, might count as evidence but not of much. So, time to start inventing.

Now, what can I come up with.... Got it! people can't chose whether to believe I exist if they know I exist - it infringes upon their freedom! Right, that works.... hang on.... no it doesn't, people will smell a rat here. It sound made up. OK, try again.... Got it! This god is in heaven and heaven is a separate realm from the physical so god can't communicate like he might if he was in the physical world, so prayer is the only way. Mmmm, promising! Problem, though, can he communicate at all? Maybe he doesn't communicate and it is only the subconscious brain giving me the replies I want to hear..... whoops, better keep quite on that one....

OK, joke over, but I think that's what's going on. The uncomfortable fact of the tough fact that there is no evidence for god has to be explained and explanations are a bit difficult. how about this thought, though, to conclude.


in my country, the UK, we have a queen, Queen Elizabeth II. She is officially head of state but takes no part in governing the country which is done by politicians. Nonetheless, she does sign into law all Acts of Parliament which make law in the UK. Now she is seen around the country and she visit places all over the place for various events. I live in the north in Scotland  and she spends the summer up in Scotland and is seen around there. However, she doesn't visit me personally, she doesn't get in my way as I live my life but she does make laws telling me what I can and can't do. of course I have a choice whether to obey these laws. I have freedom to do all that.

However, she also has people all round the country whose job it is to see that people keep her laws - police. If I get caught breaking the laws she has made, I will get punished but I won't get thrown out of the UK. I would have to do something horrific to get sent to prison and end my life there.

Yet, apparently, god is never seen, has rather vague laws that are hard to interpret and doesn't bother to do anything until after I die and at the time it is too late to do anything about it. At that point I will, apparently be thrown away into hell juts for no believing in this god.

So, Luk, tell me, why is my life in the UK with a visible queen not completely free whilst a life in which we could see god would not be?
 1. Belief without evidence
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2014, 07:52:35 AM »

I think you've had too much FALSE DOCTRINE!

You believe in a cruel God that makes you a cruel man! 

Lukvance do you concede that your god is cruel and you are cruel for believing in it???  I only ask because I care. 8)

If there is no time the term "eternal" is moot.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2014, 08:21:25 AM »
Is it still respecting my freedom if he does not talk to me even when I want him to
I don't think he is not talking to you if you want him to. Do you really want him to talk to you?

How would you know whether he is talking to me or not?  I find that to be quite an arrogant presumption.  And yes, there was a time when I was religious that I genuinely wanted god to talk to me.  He never did.

But this does not address the question I asked. It is quoted above.  Kindly address it.


Quote
Why are we expected to believe without evidence?  This is called "blind faith".  I consider it to be the height of irrationality.
I agree with you. That is why he gave us evidence. I am one of them.

What evidence?  What do you mean you are one of them?  One of what?  I do not understand.

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Believing without evidence is not the same as freely choosing. Why do you equate the two?

I do not, sorry if this is what you understood. I think that believing without evidence is different than freely choosing.

Please explain further, because everything you have said to this point leads me to believe that is exactly what you mean. I am confused.

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Freely choosing usually means there is no coersion or penalties for your choice. 

I don't think so. Could you give us an example where the exercise of your free will won't have any consequences?

I did not say "consequences".  Whether you make a choice or not, there are always consequences.  What I am talking about is when someone else presents options to you, it is not considered a "free choice" if there are explicit threats and penalties from that person if you select one or more of those options. 

For example, a gangster named Tony offers to go into business with you.  You may say "yes" or you may say "no".  But he tells you that if you say no, he will break both your legs and burn down your house.  That is not a free choice.  That is extortion.

Similarly, god does not give us a free choice.  We may choose him or not.  But if we choose not, we are punished forever.  That is also extortion.  A free choice would be if there were no punishments. Consequences are things that happen naturally as a result.  Penalties are imposed by other people.

I don't believe that those who don't follow god (during their lives) go to hell.

We call that SPAG.  That makes you a bit unorthodox.   

Again with the existence of God...Maybe I made a mistake in my phrasing. What makes you think I believe that his existence prevent us to chose to follow his rules?

everything you have posted up to this point.

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2014, 02:30:49 PM »
You call it ignorance I call it refusal to believe.

This is such a bullshit comment that it is laughable. It'd be offensive if it wasn't so pathetic. It's like trying to have rational discourse with Ray Comfort, who holds a similar position that basically, atheists are liars in denial who just want to sin and don't like god because it's against that. Well, I don't like mushrooms either and I also find Kim Jong-un to be a bit of a twat...... but I don't pretend that they don't exist!

Really, by not making its existence as obvious as the nose on my face, god hinders my free will. As has already been said, my ability to make a decision about wanting to "follow" god is based on its qualities, its ethics and morality, not on its existence. Why do some theists not grasp the simple point that believing god exists doesn't mean you become a worshipper by default?

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2014, 03:54:35 AM »
Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.
Why?  Who does that benefit?
Because it is better to "serve" God without being his slave. It benefits you and him, it's a better relation.

God could make you his b**ch but doesn't. He gave you your freedom so that everyday, every minute, every moment in your life you could choose to believe/follow/love/pray/thank him.

That's the point, isn't it? That every minute, every moment, you have to love god.....or else suffer.

Tell me something, Lukvance.  Which is better?  Being a slave without the slightest idea that you ARE a slave and without even the concept that slavery exists......or "choosing" to serve someone in the full knowledge that the slightest slip, the moment you displease them, you will be off for eternal torment.

The only way you can "choose" to serve someone, is if there is no downside to refusal.  THAT is a choice.  When the choice is "serve me every moment, or suffer forever", where is the choice?

The ONLY person it benefits is god, who can have his ego stroked by thinking "I MUST be great, they CHOSE me!"

....and try to forget the colossal stick he carries to help people "choose".
The only downside I know of is being less happy. Why are you talking about suffering?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2014, 04:01:56 AM »
Could you reword the whole "god wants you to choose him freely"?  I guess I'd like you to be more explicit in what you mean by 'choose him'.

I'm losing track of the purpose of this thread.  Perhaps that will clear it up for me.
God could make you his b**ch but doesn't. He gave you your freedom so that everyday, every minute, every moment in your life you could choose to believe/follow/love/pray/thank him. It is more rewarding for you to choose freely than to be forced to do it.
It's a little bit like the dog that stays inside the house even if the door is open. He is free to leave your house but choose to stay in with you. As opposed to the door closed. He is not free to leave the house and the result is the same, he stays in with you. Do we agree that one case is "better" than the other one?

I guess I still don't exactly know what you mean by 'choice'.  I think you're playing word games again.  I think you're intentionally conflating 'deciding to believe that an entity called god exists' and 'deciding to follow god'.

I mean, in order for me to choose to follow/love/pray/thank him, I kinda need to know he EXISTS, right?  How does it help for me to just pretend that I know that he exists, thereby requiring me to pretend to know what exactly I'm following, requiring me to pretend to love him, requiring me to pretend to know what the hell it is I'm thanking him for.

Long story short - exactly how would knowledge of his actual existence reduce my ability to exercise my free will in choosing to follow, love, pray, and thank him?
I told you that he exist. You have the knowledge of his existence. You're just not convinced yet. I know it's hard but could we agree that the existence of God is not open for debate in this thread. There is another one already about that. For the purpose of the conversation, God exist as I described him (the Bestest)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2014, 04:07:31 AM »
You call it ignorance I call it refusal to believe.

Luk, are you prepared to take part in an experiment on belief with me?  It will not require you to try to disbelieve your god, or believe in another god.  Are you willing to stand by your assertion that belief is something we can choose to do?
Of course. Tell me there is a book next to you and I will believe you. Also, all lies are based on belief.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2014, 04:18:01 AM »
I told you that he exist. You have the knowledge of his existence. You're just not convinced yet. I know it's hard but could we agree that the existence of God is not open for debate in this thread. There is another one already about that. For the purpose of the conversation, God exist as I described him (the Bestest)

You may have told us that your god exists and we may well agree to concede that, for the purposes of this thread that a god does exist. However to suggest to atheists that we know god exists is just plain nonsense. So far as I am concerned there is not the slightest  trace of evidence that suggests that there is a god and the state of the world suggests that everything is natural. If you want to claim that "You have the knowledge of his existence. You're just not convinced yet." then you will need to show this to be true - a tough call as far as I am concerned and most likely for all atheists.

now, for this thread alone you are describing your god as the 'Bestest'. I take it, then, that anything that shows this not to be the case would be fatal to your idea of your god?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2014, 05:01:05 PM »
I guess I still don't exactly know what you mean by 'choice'.  I think you're playing word games again.  I think you're intentionally conflating 'deciding to believe that an entity called god exists' and 'deciding to follow god'.

I mean, in order for me to choose to follow/love/pray/thank him, I kinda need to know he EXISTS, right?  How does it help for me to just pretend that I know that he exists, thereby requiring me to pretend to know what exactly I'm following, requiring me to pretend to love him, requiring me to pretend to know what the hell it is I'm thanking him for.

Long story short - exactly how would knowledge of his actual existence reduce my ability to exercise my free will in choosing to follow, love, pray, and thank him?
I told you that he exist. You have the knowledge of his existence. You're just not convinced yet. I know it's hard but could we agree that the existence of God is not open for debate in this thread. There is another one already about that. For the purpose of the conversation, God exist as I described him (the Bestest)
All of my criticisms are still very applicable if we assume the existence of god.

God, who, for the purposes of this thread, does in fact exist, obscures the fact of his existence.  He plays 'cloak and dagger' and provides no direct evidence that he does, in fact, exist.  Presumably, there are those in this world where god does in fact exist that do not possess this knowledge that god does in fact exist.

None of that changes the questions I had in my post.

Quote
Long story short - exactly how would knowledge of his actual existence reduce my ability to exercise my free will in choosing to follow, love, pray, and thank him?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2014, 05:27:44 PM »
Luke is this right, i have to believe in god to know he exists then he will revesl himself because i believe in him. but then don't i have to first assume he exists in order to believe in him.

how can i assume i believe in something???
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2014, 02:25:15 AM »
Well, Eh!, belief is defined as 'believing without evidence' but the trouble with believing in the existence of a god like that, without any evidence, is that the brain, with enough training will be able to generate a 'still small voice' from within the sub-conscious brain that appears to the believer as the voice of god. They use this as proof of the existence of a god yet in emanates only from their own brain.

Frankly a god that hides that much that one cannot distinguish between the voice emanating from one's own sub-conscious brain and, potentially a god, is so well hidden that it might just as well not be there. In fact, seeing the whole thing from the perspective of gods being imaginary all the same features are there. Really we cannot tell - either believer or non-believer - if gods are imaginary or real.

Of course we have no way, due to the cloak and dagger approach, to know objectively if there is a god or not and the believer has no way of knowing either since it is likely that he cannot distinguish a voice created in the sub-conscious and a voice emanating from a god. Given that, it is not surprising that lots of excuses and reasons are generated to justify why a god would hide so successfully from people so that no one can say if it exists.For various reasons lots of work has gone in to defending the concept of god from all sorts of things - think of the work that has gone into theodicyWiki  for example - all of which is about showing that a god that doesn't match real experience is still reasonable to believe in.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2014, 09:44:07 AM »
To add to wheels has already said, if the "One True God" of any religion were to actually exist, you would think the message you believed you were hearing in your head would be the same, exact message everyone else on the planet would be receiving no matter where they lived, what culture they belonged to or what belief system they had been indoctrinated in to.

Isn't it interesting how someone of Arabic descent... who was born and raised in a predominantly Islamic country... who was brought up in the Muslim faith... does not hear in their head the Christian/Jewish/Hindu/insert "X" religion version of God's will or vice-versa?

I have a funny feeling, though, that the theist's answer to this would be something like "They do, but are lead astray by listening to the teachings of false prophets". &)
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2014, 10:09:34 AM »
To add to wheels has already said, if the "One True God" of any religion were to actually exist, you would think the message you believed you were hearing in your head would be the same, exact message everyone else on the planet would be receiving no matter where they lived, what culture they belonged to or what belief system they had been indoctrinated in to.

Isn't it interesting how someone of Arabic descent... who was born and raised in a predominantly Islamic country... who was brought up in the Muslim faith... does not hear in their head the Christian/Jewish/Hindu/insert "X" religion version of God's will or vice-versa?

I have a funny feeling, though, that the theist's answer to this would be something like "They do, but are lead astray by listening to the teachings of false prophets". &)
That excuse would make it worse as it would be tough or impossible to determine who was affected by the false prophets, It could be the Muslims, it could be Christians and, of course, it might only affect certain parts of a religion so that Sunnis might thing Shias heard a distorted message. Baptisms would think Episcopalians did and so forth. Theists might try that tack but it might just work out worse than they thought.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2014, 10:30:48 AM »
That excuse would make it worse as it would be tough or impossible to determine who was affected by the false prophets,

Much, much worse if you factor in the absolute (smug) certainty each individual theist has that they are right and every one else is wrong (and in some cases even within their own religion) when it comes to "correctly" interpreting their god's will. Add to the mix a faith that contains certain "instructions" as to what should be done with/to these "misguided" souls, and... well, we end up with the sorry world we have today.

Quote
Theists might try that tack but it might just work out worse than they thought.

Sadly, it usually ends up worse for those who are more humble and/or passive in their faith, or for those of us who want no part of their delusional world views at all.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2014, 11:43:04 AM »
Sorry to jump into this thread so late, but there's one thing I don't understand which I'm not sure has been specifically asked:

You say that a person choosing to believe in god based on actual proof that he exists would mean that he is, therefore a slave rather than having a relationship based on free will.

Does this mean that somehow knowing that a person you have a close relationship with (parents, spouses and such) makes you their slave just because you know for a fact that they exist?

I can sort of understand your argument about free will if I really squint my brain, but I still don't get how knowledge of god's existence would automatically make you his slave if you then decided to seek a relationship.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2014, 12:55:55 PM »
Actually, Jynnan, I sort of mentioned the idea quite a bit earlier.

I made the comparison with the UK and its head of state, the Queen. She is visible, tours parts of the country and is shown on TV at various events. We know she is there and we can see her. However, we have a choice about obeying her laws - the one parliament has made of course. We have free will, in fact, about keeping the laws or not. This free will is quite unaffected by whether we know the queen is there or not. In fact we all have the choice and some decide  not to keep the laws and others of us do keep the laws (more or less!). The ones who don't, though, do have the small problem of the queen's officers who will arrest people who break the law (policemen) and bring you before the queen's judges.

Roughly, that's how it is / would be with god. He makes laws[1] for people to keep, we are told. We have free will to either do what those laws say or not ignore them. This god, though, doesn't bother with a police force so no one knows if they got things right until after they die, we are told. Apart from than, the comparison with the queen is pretty close.

Again, it hardly matters is we know the queen is there or not, as parliament has made laws anyway but with god, if one doesn't know he is there, and the universe doesn't suggest it, people could well decide that there is no god. Freedom of will would not be affected if we knew there was a god and some people would ignore what he said and some would follow.

Where free will if curbed in the present case where we have no idea if there is a god as there is no evidence and there is no clear set of laws to follow either but we can only find out if we chose right after we die when it is too late!
 1. Well, yes, but they are mostly unclear and every religion has its own idea and no one knows which god and religion is the right one!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2014, 09:35:32 PM »
I am still trying to figure out why we have to trust the restaurant owner that there is food on the plate. We are not supposed to see the food on the plate before deciding whether or not to eat it....because we are freer that way. WTF?

If we see dog poop on the plate, then what?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2014, 12:01:23 AM »
I am still trying to figure out why we have to trust the restaurant owner that there is food on the plate. We are not supposed to see the food on the plate before deciding whether or not to eat it....because we are freer that way. WTF?

If we see dog poop on the plate, then what?

Wash it down with cat urine.

;)

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2014, 06:56:59 AM »
Actually, Jynnan, I sort of mentioned the idea quite a bit earlier.

I made the comparison with the UK and its head of state, the Queen. She is visible, tours parts of the country and is shown on TV at various events. We know she is there and we can see her. However, we have a choice about obeying her laws - the one parliament has made of course. We have free will, in fact, about keeping the laws or not. This free will is quite unaffected by whether we know the queen is there or not. In fact we all have the choice and some decide  not to keep the laws and others of us do keep the laws (more or less!). The ones who don't, though, do have the small problem of the queen's officers who will arrest people who break the law (policemen) and bring you before the queen's judges.

Roughly, that's how it is / would be with god. He makes laws[1] for people to keep, we are told. We have free will to either do what those laws say or not ignore them. This god, though, doesn't bother with a police force so no one knows if they got things right until after they die, we are told. Apart from than, the comparison with the queen is pretty close.

Again, it hardly matters is we know the queen is there or not, as parliament has made laws anyway but with god, if one doesn't know he is there, and the universe doesn't suggest it, people could well decide that there is no god. Freedom of will would not be affected if we knew there was a god and some people would ignore what he said and some would follow.

Where free will if curbed in the present case where we have no idea if there is a god as there is no evidence and there is no clear set of laws to follow either but we can only find out if we chose right after we die when it is too late!
 1. Well, yes, but they are mostly unclear and every religion has its own idea and no one knows which god and religion is the right one!

Hmm...yes, I did see this post earlier, but didn't read it as making quite the same point that I was asking about.

My question was more along the lines of someone having a relationship with god. I was relating more to the concept of a loving god who wants an actual, personal relationship with his creation, where that is not something the queen would be looking for.

The thing I'm not understanding is Luk's contention that if we can only come to know god through a force of not only free will, but massive determination to believe what there seems to be no basis for (he says himself that it took him four years and countless tries before achieving even a glimmer of "understanding"), then that is a loving relationship, whereas if god made himself known, even though we would still have free will as to whether or not to love him, that would, somehow, ultimately make us just slaves.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2014, 10:20:11 AM »
Hmm...yes, I did see this post earlier, but didn't read it as making quite the same point that I was asking about.

My question was more along the lines of someone having a relationship with god. I was relating more to the concept of a loving god who wants an actual, personal relationship with his creation, where that is not something the queen would be looking for.

The thing I'm not understanding is Luk's contention that if we can only come to know god through a force of not only free will, but massive determination to believe what there seems to be no basis for (he says himself that it took him four years and countless tries before achieving even a glimmer of "understanding"), then that is a loving relationship, whereas if god made himself known, even though we would still have free will as to whether or not to love him, that would, somehow, ultimately make us just slaves.

If he had been exposed to similar Catholic circles as I had been, the typical resolution for this conundrum is that being in the presence of god is so intense and his majesty is so apparent that, upon direct experience of god, a person will be unquestionably compelled to adore, follow, and worship this entity.

God is just so lovable that absolutely every sentient entity that is graced with direct experience of god will love him.

Which is confusing, based on a) the sheer number of entities in the past that purportedly did have direct experience of god and didn't succumb to this irresistible devotion, and b) the fact that this irresistible devotion supposedly stems as a result of the sheer awesomeness of god's fundamental character, which, apparently, is supposed to be something that should not be considered when giving one's "genuine love" to this entity.

(b) is what confuses me the most.  I just don't understand how knowing less about an entity gives someone more freedom to choose to genuinely love that entity.  As if the most genuine love that can be given to an entity is love given with as little regard for the entity as possible.

It's an idiotic and twisted version of love.  It makes platitudes of love the important aspect of that emotion, and the sentiments of love unimportant.  To think that Lukvance may actually view love like this...it's pretty sad to be honest.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2014, 10:52:06 AM »
^^^Exactly. Let's accept that what Lukvance says is true and god exists. Okay, god exists. How do we get from "god exists" to "I devote my life to the worship and praise of this being?"

Why would you love, respect or worship something or someone just based on knowing they exist? Lots of things exist. Does it follow that they are all worthy of honor or respect? Add in the fact that god does not really want everyone to know all about him, or we would know all about him. Because he is god. How could a puny human possibly block out god, if god wanted to get through to the puny human?

Remember, this is not your annoying neighbor banging on the door to borrow your lawnmower again. This is god banging on your consciousness, and eternal salvation is at stake. Seems a big deal, not just something that god would let slide.

Can you imagine the loving eternal god saying, "I tried. Sort of. What do they want from me? I gave them a bible 2000 years ago.  But, see, those atheists won't take their fingers out of their ears, so eff 'em. Off to hell. Let 'em burn."

Instead of doing everything in his power, which we assume is an awful lot, to let everyone know all about him. Fireworks spelling out his name, sacred texts that translate into the right language as each reader picks it up, every baby cured of cleft palate, cancer and AIDS on Easter Sunday. Whatever it takes.

But Oprah is better at mass communicating than god-- and she gives away cars. What's up with that?


Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2014, 02:54:30 AM »
Luk, are you prepared to take part in an experiment on belief with me?
Of course. Tell me there is a book next to you and I will believe you.

Thank you for agreeing to the experiment.

I'm not going to ask you to believe there is a book next to me.  Its trivial.  What I am going to ask you to believe is this.

I want you to believe there is a live, hungry tiger loose in your bedroom.

That's it.  Let me know how you get on.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2014, 06:27:29 PM »
Not a magical invisible tiger who smells like roses, only appears to virgins, and that will turn into butter for your pancakes.

A real, live, meat-eating, escaped from the zoo, three-inch-long gleaming fangs, smells like the jungle tiger. It's in your room right now. Believe in 3, 2, 1: go!

As soon as Lukvance really believes in that tiger, and is locked in his bathroom frantically calling the local authorities on his cell to come and pick it up, we can start in on believing in his god..... &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2014, 07:05:48 PM »
Oh F'ing subtlety brilliant. I love,love,love this place.


oh wait i now have a problem, in my darkest hour all alone battling the stupidity of fundamentalists i in a sense prayed to "god" to help prove his non-existence, in some unexplainable coincidences (and google) i found this place.....were my prayers heard and answered?  A sign from god? Did god create mwith a purpose to show others he does not exist? 

Confused
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 07:13:16 PM by eh! »
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