Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 48691 times)

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Offline Jag

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #406 on: May 12, 2014, 10:14:41 PM »
Because I don't like the idea <snip>

The end.

Ok, I'm just kidding. But it does seem to wrap up the argument pretty accurately, doesn't it?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #407 on: May 12, 2014, 10:38:38 PM »
So you said the first life form, a simple bacteria, could be Adam.
Therefore bacterias have souls. Good. Therefore, why shouldn't all animales have souls?
Because I don't like the idea of eating something that had a soul. Do you think that bacteria represent humanity?
What I think is irrelevant.

You basically said bacteria have souls (first live form), but don't like that idea?

Whoop tee doo. It doesn't matter whether you like the idea, by your reasoning, all animals should have a soul, because of evolution, and what happens to their soul? Poof, vanishes when they die?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #408 on: May 12, 2014, 10:43:46 PM »
You basically said bacteria have souls (first live form)
I didn't. You assumed that. You do that a lot...

Quote
by your reasoning, all animals should have a soul, because of evolution, and what happens to their soul? Poof, vanishes when they die?
It is not my reasoning, it is yours. You are talking to yourself here.
You're worth more than my time

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #409 on: May 13, 2014, 12:12:24 AM »
What's so bad about eating something with a soul? The Greeks invented soul, and they didn't do it to confuse Christians, because Christians hadn't been invented yet. Plato and Ari both believed that animals had souls, but they were less complicated. The answer to whether you should be worried about whether eating things with a soul is bad, is to just put blinkers on and ignore the problem.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #410 on: May 13, 2014, 12:14:47 AM »
Or, you can become a vegetarian. But Paul says that shows you have inferior faith. If you are strong in your faith, you can eat things with souls, and not fear that you are doing evil. In fact, once you have faith, you don't have to worry about whether you are being evil or not, because humans can't really navigate this complex field. It's best to leave morality up to God.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #411 on: May 13, 2014, 01:29:58 AM »
I don't know if this unicellular individual had a soul or not. If he had a soul, he could sin. And Jesus died for his sins too. Some people believe that every living being has a soul as opposed to a rock that has none. Me? I'm on the lookout about that subject. Not decided yet. It does bother me a bit when I eat my steak so I tend to think that not all living things have a soul.

If I recall correctly, I had read somewhere about certain cultures (such as the Native Americans) believing that animals possessed "spirits" but not "souls" (which only humans allegedly possess). Either way, I would think that according to the Gospels Jesus was only concerned with saving mankind, wouldn't you agree?

In regards to your opinion that the Gospels are the only factual accounts of Jesus's words and deeds, my final query to you will be to repeat what other posters have previously asked of you: how can you know for certain that what is contained in the four Gospels is absolutely true while the rest of the Bible (according to your earlier statements) is comprised of stories (all of the OT and the NT being questionable)?

Well, I truly want to thank you for answering my many questions. While I do not subscribe to your particular and peculiar brand of belief, I do feel that I have a better understanding of what that belief actual encompasses.

That said, I wonder if you would consider a one-on-one debate with another Catholic or Christian such as Skeptic (basically someone who takes a more literal view of the Bible)?

Edit: magicmiles would also be a valid candidate for a debate.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 01:37:54 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #412 on: May 13, 2014, 01:45:39 AM »
That said, I wonder if you would consider a one-on-one debate with another Catholic or Christian such as Skeptic (basically someone who takes a more literal view of the Bible)?

No, no. They are sworn not to do that, because it looks really bad.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #413 on: May 13, 2014, 02:00:10 AM »
That said, I wonder if you would consider a one-on-one debate with another Catholic or Christian such as Skeptic (basically someone who takes a more literal view of the Bible)?

No, no. They are sworn not to do that, because it looks really bad.

C'mon, AH! Tell me you wouldn't want a ringside seat? I'll even bring the popcorn.  ;)
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #414 on: May 13, 2014, 02:12:57 AM »
Maybe we should make it condition of entry onto this site?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #415 on: May 13, 2014, 02:17:06 AM »
But, seriously, they are not going to bother, because a liberal Christian, who supposedly sides with science, believes that the Fundamentalist is still saved, even if he believes ridiculous things, and annoys people with his disgusting hubris, and makes atheists more determined to hate Christians.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 02:22:38 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #416 on: May 13, 2014, 02:20:47 AM »


Edit: magicmiles would also be a valid candidate for a debate.

Nah. Too busy playing with PPITW (you'll work that out I'm sure)
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #417 on: May 13, 2014, 02:23:05 AM »
But, seriously, they are not going to bother, because a liberal Christian, who supposedly sides with science, believes that the Fundamentalist is still saved, even if he believes ridiculous things, and pissed other people off with his disgusting hubris, and makes atheists more determined to hate Christians.

Bolded mine. Do you hate Christians, as a rule?
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #418 on: May 13, 2014, 02:31:51 AM »
So adam might not even have a soul?
Please, don't play dumb. Of course he had a soul. God gave it to him.

OK, Luk, don't you play dumb. Where in the text does god give Adam a soul - chapter and verse?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #419 on: May 13, 2014, 02:45:13 AM »
But, seriously, they are not going to bother, because a liberal Christian, who supposedly sides with science, believes that the Fundamentalist is still saved, even if he believes ridiculous things, and pissed other people off with his disgusting hubris, and makes atheists more determined to hate Christians.

Bolded mine. Do you hate Christians, as a rule?

Really I'm surprised that you take what I say literally, because you feel free to re-interpret all the Bible.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #420 on: May 13, 2014, 02:50:13 AM »
I didn't take it literally, champion. I asked a follow up question.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #421 on: May 13, 2014, 02:51:33 AM »
But, seriously, they are not going to bother, because a liberal Christian, who supposedly sides with science, believes that the Fundamentalist is still saved, even if he believes ridiculous things, and annoys people with his disgusting hubris, and makes atheists more determined to hate Christians.

I was thinking it could be more along the lines of a literalist Bible believer vs. Luk, who (with the exception of the Gospels) thinks it's all a bunch of hooey.

Oh, well. It would have been illuminating, to say the least.

Nah. Too busy playing with PPITW (you'll work that out I'm sure)

I'm sure you meant 2ndmostPPITW. :P
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #422 on: May 13, 2014, 03:14:23 AM »
I was thinking it could be more along the lines of a literalist Bible believer vs. Luk, who (with the exception of the Gospels) thinks it's all a bunch of hooey.

The turf is a lot more fertile between fundamentalist and atheist, because the atheist has a holistic view that everything the fundamentalist says is wrong, so is prepared to contradict all statements. Whereas, if you have a liberal against a fundamentalist, the antagonism gradient is not large enough to cause critical mass.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #423 on: May 13, 2014, 03:23:20 AM »
Whereas, if you have a liberal against a fundamentalist, the antagonism gradient is not large enough to cause critical mass.

In 99.9% of such encounters I would be in complete agreement with you, but I must confess that I have never come across a breed of theist like Luk. Remember, he did state that he would challenge anyone who believed in a literal view of the OT.

I think you're right in that it would most likely never happen, though.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #424 on: May 13, 2014, 03:50:32 AM »
Yeah, I thought PPITW was World of Warcraft, or something to do with Nascar. Now I'm favouring his son.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #425 on: May 13, 2014, 04:08:47 AM »
he did state that he would challenge anyone who believed in a literal view of the OT.

Would he do that using hard facts? I suppose you can reason that the OT is not literal by the following axioms:

1) Jesus was God  [dubious. discuss.]
2) The NT is entirely true, because someone said so.  [who?]

Facts needed, to be plausible

Jesus said that the OT was not to be taken literally  [citation needed]
The people who read it, also believed it was not to be taken literally  [citation needed]
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #426 on: May 13, 2014, 04:16:39 AM »
I see your point. While Luk to his credit did at least answer my questions, he was light on providing sources that were less opinions and interpretations instead of actual Biblical "evidence" for lack of a better word.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #427 on: May 13, 2014, 04:36:09 AM »
I see your point. While Luk to his credit did at least answer my questions, he was light on providing sources that were less opinions and interpretations instead of actual Biblical "evidence" for lack of a better word.

I think the stumbling block is that the same people who said the NT is literally true, also say the OT is literally true.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #428 on: May 13, 2014, 06:00:58 AM »
You basically said bacteria have souls (first live form)
I didn't. You assumed that. You do that a lot...

Quote
by your reasoning, all animals should have a soul, because of evolution, and what happens to their soul? Poof, vanishes when they die?
It is not my reasoning, it is yours. You are talking to yourself here.
Just how you claimed I believed that god exists?
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #429 on: May 13, 2014, 06:01:31 AM »
I see your point. While Luk to his credit did at least answer my questions, he was light on providing sources that were less opinions and interpretations instead of actual Biblical "evidence" for lack of a better word.

I think the stumbling block is that the same people who said the NT is literally true, also say the OT is literally true.

Of course, Catholics don't take the line of the bible being absolutely true. Indeed they claim to be able to tell is  passage is a literal truth - like Jesus saying the bread and wine are his literal body and blood - from stories which, while have theological truth in them, are stories and not literally true such as the stories in Genesis. The bible, for Catholics tends to be played down in favour of 'Church Tradition' which comprises a party line on the interpretation of the bible just to make sure no one strays from the true interpretation of course.

On a forum like this, I would say it is quite difficult to defend each biblical passage as either literal or not even though the Church teaches it that way. Maggie famously used to champion this though. Luk should be clear juts what he thinks about the various bible passages and especially show us why the gospels should be taken as .... gospel.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #430 on: May 13, 2014, 07:32:29 AM »
You don't think it's missing something like the ability to choose?  Or the ability to say 'no' to god?
sorry the "don't" shouldn't be there. "I feel that it is missing something" My bad, English is not my first language and something like that don't get pick up by the autocorrect haha.
What's your native tongue if I may ask?

But OK, you think that it is missing something.  Perhaps you want to take back the claim that 'Adam' is 'whatever you (I) want'?  It's clearly not - it clearly means something rather specific that is independent of what I may or may not think.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #431 on: May 13, 2014, 08:02:56 AM »
You don't think it's missing something like the ability to choose?  Or the ability to say 'no' to god?
sorry the "don't" shouldn't be there. "I feel that it is missing something" My bad, English is not my first language and something like that don't get pick up by the autocorrect haha.
What's your native tongue if I may ask?

But OK, you think that it is missing something.  Perhaps you want to take back the claim that 'Adam' is 'whatever you (I) want'?  It's clearly not - it clearly means something rather specific that is independent of what I may or may not think.

Mmm - I'm not so sure here. To many people, Luk included by the sound of it, Genesis is a creation myth. The beauty of a myth is that one can take all sorts of messages from it and people can easily see it for different angles. Really, I'd rather Luk told what he thought of the Adam figure in the story rather than telling us what we might think.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #432 on: May 13, 2014, 09:46:25 AM »
Of course, Catholics don't take the line of the bible being absolutely true. Indeed they claim to be able to tell is  passage is a literal truth - like Jesus saying the bread and wine are his literal body and blood - from stories which, while have theological truth in them, are stories and not literally true such as the stories in Genesis.

Yeah, I think Catholics bail out of anything that science proves to be false, after a hundred years or so. Everything is literally true, unless they cop out.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger s**t [from God]?
« Reply #433 on: May 13, 2014, 11:25:42 AM »
What's so bad about eating something with a soul?

C'mon, people!!  Haven't you ever heard of soul food?!?!
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #434 on: May 13, 2014, 11:46:50 AM »
Really, I'd rather Luk told what he thought of the Adam figure in the story rather than telling us what we might think.

Going back to re-read his comments, from what I understand his stance to be is that Adam... who "represents all of humanity on earth"... may have been a historical figure (he changed his stance after my "How could Jesus have been descended from fictional characters?" comment) before then apparently claiming Adam was more of a symbolic (not necessarily modern human) figure used to explain how mankind contracted original sin in a story format (Eating from the Tree of Knowledge). He also confessed to not having an alternative explanation to the Garden of Eden story in Genesis 3.

The conclusion I've come to is that the farther back in time he goes from the Gospels, the more he has had to rely on speculation and sources outside of Catholic doctrine.

What's so bad about eating something with a soul?

C'mon, people!!  Haven't you ever heard of soul food?!?!

You grab Boots, AH, while I beat the funny out of him. :P



« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 11:48:43 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
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