Author Topic: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?  (Read 6297 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #290 on: July 24, 2014, 05:42:00 PM »
The history of A and E is like the history of this little kid who got burned by putting his hand into the fire.
His dad told him not to do it so he didn't.
One day this other boy come and tempt him to do it nevertheless "it will make you a man, like your father." he says. "Your father don't want you to be like him so he told you not to do it" he adds.
The little boy put his hand in the fire and get burned.
1. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not put out the fire
2. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not build a fence high enough around the fire
3. Some little boys will blame their father because he let him speak to the other boy
4. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not educate them enough.
5. Some little boys will blame their father because because.
6. Some little boys will blame the other kid.
7. Some little boys will blame themselves and take responsibility for their choices instead of blaming other people.
Which one do you think became a real man?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #291 on: July 24, 2014, 06:24:42 PM »
The little boy was not like the empty headed automatons who had zero information. They did not even know the "shame" of nakedness. This is how stupid Adam and Eve were. Where the "boy" had the information needed to know what happens when you burn yourself. Your posts get dumber and more obscure by the day.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #292 on: July 24, 2014, 06:31:01 PM »
1) Please define "fallible" and "infallible" as you are using it.
2) What kind of brain did your god originally create mankind with - using your definitions from (1).
3) Does mankind still have the same type of brain as god created mankind with?
4) If there has been a change, is this change part of your god's plan or intention?
1. Fallible brain : A brain that can be wrong. Would it be morally or not.
Infallible brain : A brain that can never be wrong. it cannot make mistake in any form. Omniscient.
2. A fallible brain.
3. No, our brain evolved. I don't believe that Adam and Eve were made of mater (meaning they are characters in a story, not historical characters)
4. Yes. But I'm not sure.
so if Adam and Eve are Characters in a story,what exactly are you basing this fallible/infallible scenario on? Where does the first infallible brain come from?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #293 on: July 24, 2014, 06:45:01 PM »
The history of A and E is like the history of this little kid who got burned by putting his hand into the fire.
His dad told him not to do it so he didn't.
One day this other boy come and tempt him to do it nevertheless "it will make you a man, like your father." he says. "Your father don't want you to be like him so he told you not to do it" he adds.
The little boy put his hand in the fire and get burned.
1. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not put out the fire
2. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not build a fence high enough around the fire
3. Some little boys will blame their father because he let him speak to the other boy
4. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not educate them enough.
5. Some little boys will blame their father because because.
6. Some little boys will blame the other kid.
7. Some little boys will blame themselves and take responsibility for their choices instead of blaming other people.
Which one do you think became a real man?

False analogy. Ignoring the lack of knowledge that 12 Monkeys already mentioned, the last part is simply not true. Let me expand on what a less wrong analogy would be. Continuing from your third line:
The little boy puts his hand in the fire and it does exactly what the other boy told him it would, rather than what the father told the little boy it would.
The little boy's father then pissed his pants and punished his own son for eternity, even though the dad had lied.
The little boy then punishes the other boy as well by declaring him the lowest life form to ever have existed, as well as cutting off his arms and legs so that he can only crawl on the ground.
1. Some little boys will blame the little boy even though he (rightly) did not trust his lying father who didn't want to share his "real man" status (whatever that means).
2. Some little boys will blame the little boy even though his father didn't tell him anything about what would happen, purposefully setting up the scenario for the child to become curious.
And so on. I don't have the patience to go through all these.

And the best part? Even my analogy is not accurate enough to serve as a comparison. Wanna know why? Because the father is human, and not a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient creator of everything, including the fire and the other boy.

Well, that's enough troll-bashing for today.
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #294 on: July 24, 2014, 08:34:46 PM »
^^^That's right! We forget that eating the fruit did not kill A and E. God did. The fruit itself did exactly what the serpent said, opened the humans' eyes and made them understand good and evil. God is the one who misled them into thinking the fruit was bad when it was not, just to make a point about obedience. God lied, and nobody died. Until hundreds of years later.[1]

And even if the fruit had turned out to be poison and had non-spiritually killed A and E instantly, you still have to wonder why god made this wonderful garden paradise so perfect for humans, and then equipped it with one tree full of poison fruit, for no apparent reason than to arrange this little simple but eternally important setup-- I mean test of faith and obedience.

To make the analogy with the fire and the boys, the father would have to have this room full of fire for no other reason than to see if his son will open it and go in. No need for the fire otherwise. In that case, why did the father have the room of fire? And then the boy goes in, goaded into it by the other boy, and he does not get burned to death, as his father had warned him. He actually becomes strong and manly, just like the other boy said. What is the boy supposed to think about the trustworthiness of his father then?

The last part, of course is that the father, when he sees his newly strong and manly son, all Thor'd up from the fire room, throws acid on him and says, "See? that's what happens when you disobey me. I told you that going into that room would burn you."

That is how god behaved toward A and E. Lesson learned. Do not trust this lying, vindictive bastard.
 1. I know. They died spiritually. Like it says clearly in Genesis.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #295 on: July 24, 2014, 08:45:55 PM »
God in Eden was merely the first recorded instance of a power tripping twerp going in to asshole mode just for the hell of it.

On the surface, the story makes no sense whatsoever. You really have to bury yourself deep in the shit pile to pretend otherwise.

And that is apparently the only talent some people have.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #296 on: July 24, 2014, 09:23:08 PM »
Based on the analogy given by Lukvance, the fire and being burned is the fathers ("God's") punishment of the boy (A and E).  Lukvance conveniently left that part out.

The problem here is that Lukvance thinks the moral of the story is that we should take responsibility for our actions instead of blaming others (including "God") when actually the moral of the story is obey "God" or else ("God" will fuck you up).

What Lukvance thinks the moral of the story is, is nice and all but it is exactly the perception a person would have in order to follow the actual moral of the story of obeying "God".
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 09:25:58 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #297 on: July 24, 2014, 10:08:42 PM »
Based on the analogy given by Lukvance, the fire and being burned is the fathers ("God's") punishment of the boy (A and E).  Lukvance conveniently left that part out.

The problem here is that Lukvance thinks the moral of the story is that we should take responsibility for our actions instead of blaming others (including "God") when actually the moral of the story is obey "God" or else ("God" will fuck you up).

What Lukvance thinks the moral of the story is, is nice and all but it is exactly the perception a person would have in order to follow the actual moral of the story of obeying "God".
he(luk) goes through this dances about infallible brains starting with Adam,then twists it by saying the starting point of infallibility starts with a storybook character.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #298 on: July 24, 2014, 11:20:22 PM »
he(luk) goes through this dances about infallible brains starting with Adam,then twists it by saying the starting point of infallibility starts with a storybook character.

Yep, it's all a diversion for him to avoid having to follow through on acknowledging the logical conclusions.

For instance, he hasn't responded to my last post on page 10 or the following:

Let me take you through it slowly then.

Option One: god created Adam with a fallible brain.  Conclusion: god wanted man to have fallible brains.
Option Two: god created Adam with an infallible brain.  Therefore, whatever decisions Adam took were perfectly correct, and exactly what god wanted him to do.  If those 100% correct decisions then led to him changing to a fallible brain, then god must have intended that to happen all along.

Conclusion: god wanted us to have a fallible brain, whether we were originally created that way or not.

And

If you believe that “God” exists, then you have to accept that “God” wants humans to be tricked into going to “Hell”.

And

Nicely done.  When you have lost the argument,net and can't think of any more apologetics, just change the question and hope we won't notice.
What are you talking about? What argument did I lost? Against who? What counter argument made me lose it?

Everything you have said about your god indicates that good actions are inevitable for it - you know, exactly that same lack of free will that you claim is SO important in man.  When there is only one action possible for a thing, then it is a preprogrammed automaton.

Here's a tip for your answer - you will need to explain clearly how it is that your god is able to take actions other than the best action, while retaining its infallibility and perfection.  Because those are the apparently mutually exclusive traits you wish to assign to your god.

Well, here's one question that you haven't answered.  That an infallible brain and free will are mutually exclusive.  And with reference to my post above, you will also need to show how Adam's infallible brain - that you say he was created with - led him to chose against god.  How can an infallible brain do something like that, unless choosing against god is the correct decision?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #299 on: July 25, 2014, 04:13:54 AM »
2) What kind of brain did your god originally create mankind with
2. A fallible brain.

We have fallible brains. But weren't created with one. Sin and evolution made them fallible.

Would you care to explain this discrepancy? 

Can you understand why you are viewed with such suspicion?  Why you are finding it so hard to get your point across?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #300 on: July 25, 2014, 04:25:26 AM »
do you have some actual evidence?
Yes of course. Actual evidence
Yes.  I. Am now asking for the actual evidence you have now clearly gone in record as having that is not your thoughts or feelings.
So present it.
Why do you do that? What have you got to gain from that behavior? Does it makes you feel more powerful or something?

Present your evidence.

Lukvance, which of these four categories would you say that YOU fall into?  Do you have answers?  Do you want us to have answers?
Of course I want to give you answers.

Then present your evidence.  Do it here, or start a new thread, I don't care.  Lets just see this actual evidence you have, that is not your thoughts or feelings, these answers that you are so prepared to give.

Lukvance PMd me four links.  I can see why he did not want to post them here because none linked to any actual evidence.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26874.msg617986.html#msg617986
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26874.msg618511.html#msg618511
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26874.msg619042.html#msg619042
And lastly
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26874.msg619074.html#msg619074

I say again: please present the actual evidence that you have.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #301 on: July 25, 2014, 05:56:43 AM »
The history of A and E is like the history of this little kid who got burned by putting his hand into the fire.
His dad told him not to do it so he didn't.
One day this other boy come and tempt him to do it nevertheless "it will make you a man, like your father." he says. "Your father don't want you to be like him so he told you not to do it" he adds.
The little boy put his hand in the fire and get burned.
1. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not put out the fire
2. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not build a fence high enough around the fire
3. Some little boys will blame their father because he let him speak to the other boy
4. Some little boys will blame their father because he did not educate them enough.
5. Some little boys will blame their father because because.
6. Some little boys will blame the other kid.
7. Some little boys will blame themselves and take responsibility for their choices instead of blaming other people.
Which one do you think became a real man?
1. This is the perfect example of bad parenting: Failing to give an explanation and expecting total obedience.
2. It is also a perfect example of Luk's bad thinking: He imagines that all fathers are perfect and thus require obedience. As a father myself, I can tell you that there are no perfect fathers just degrees of fathers.
3. This is also a perfect example of Luk's belief that authority should never be questioned[1] - Luk does not understand that questioning authority is the way we progress: let us look at the example of Galileo and the earth moving... "To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. (attrib. Cardinal Bellarmine (Trial of Galileo))"

In short, ladies and gentlemen, in discussing the topic with Luk, we are discussing a subject with someone who is programmed to reject all opposition regardless of how clear and obvious the logic of that opposition is.

Luk is not arguing towards the truth nor towards accuracy or reason - he is arguing that his version of events (The Dogma of the Church of Rome) should be accepted without question, and those who question his (and thus the Church's) conclusions or arguments are anti-social idiots who are only here to spoil it for the rest of you.
 1. which is why he happily swallows the lies of Christianity
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 06:00:04 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #302 on: July 25, 2014, 06:05:17 AM »
Which one do you think became a real man?

When you say "real man", do you mean like the boy's father?  The one who lied about what would happen if he touched the flame?  The one who, when disobeyed once, threw a hissy fit and cast his son out of his home?

I don't regard any father who did that as being a "real man".  I would be thoroughly ashamed if I treated my children like that - lied to them and then punished them harshly for a first transgression for something they did not understand.  That's not a "real man" - that's a vindictive bully.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #303 on: July 25, 2014, 06:08:53 AM »
Adam and Eve could have had infallible brain and still make this choice.
The Bible makes it absolutely clear that Adam and Eve had incomplete brains. Brains that lacked what our brains now possess - a moral dimension.

Of course, as I have often said, as a Catholic, you would not know much about the Bible, but, if you want (and if your priest agrees that you may) you can look at a Bible and see

Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Theologically, this is a difficult point: it shows that God did not give us morals, rather that we gained morals by disobedience to God and listening to the serpent.

Ask your priest for an answer to that conundrum, I am no longer much interested in your "guesses" which have proved unreliable both theologically and in reality.
That's funny because I had the same question when I was younger.
The capacity of knowing right from wrong, we were created with.

Luk,
is there something wrong with you?
The Bible says: Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Please note the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

It is therefore clear that man was NOT created with "The capacity of knowing right from wrong," it is nothing to do with "capacity" - the word "capacity" does not appear in the verse. More than that, man did not know right from wrong -> this whole area was missing.

If it were missing, then God must have said, "Now man has disobeyed I will give him the knowledge that only gods possess." This seems stupid, doesn't it? Why give a gift, possessed only by gods, as a reward for disobedience?

Are you calling God a liar?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 06:16:44 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #304 on: July 25, 2014, 06:18:05 AM »
I say again: please present the actual evidence that you have.

The problem is, Lukvance thinks what he's provided is evidence and we are just ignoring it for some reason.

It's almost like he thinks atheists are just some cult of Flat Earthers ignoring all the evidence that the Earth is round.  My analogy is kind of poor though since evidence for a round Earth is so much more abundant than what Lukvance thinks is evidence for his god.  He doesn't see that though.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #305 on: July 26, 2014, 11:51:59 AM »
^^^That's right! We forget that eating the fruit did not kill A and E. God did. The fruit itself did exactly what the serpent said, opened the humans' eyes and made them understand good and evil. God is the one who misled them into thinking the fruit was bad when it was not, just to make a point about obedience. God lied, and nobody died. Until hundreds of years later.[1]

And even if the fruit had turned out to be poison and had non-spiritually killed A and E instantly, you still have to wonder why god made this wonderful garden paradise so perfect for humans, and then equipped it with one tree full of poison fruit, for no apparent reason than to arrange this little simple but eternally important setup-- I mean test of faith and obedience.

To make the analogy with the fire and the boys, the father would have to have this room full of fire for no other reason than to see if his son will open it and go in. No need for the fire otherwise. In that case, why did the father have the room of fire? And then the boy goes in, goaded into it by the other boy, and he does not get burned to death, as his father had warned him. He actually becomes strong and manly, just like the other boy said. What is the boy supposed to think about the trustworthiness of his father then?

The last part, of course is that the father, when he sees his newly strong and manly son, all Thor'd up from the fire room, throws acid on him and says, "See? that's what happens when you disobey me. I told you that going into that room would burn you."

That is how god behaved toward A and E. Lesson learned. Do not trust this lying, vindictive bastard.
 1. I know. They died spiritually. Like it says clearly in Genesis.
Wow you are really good at derailing the conversation from its starting point. I never realize how much addressing the question (about infallible brain) was unimportant to you and how most importantly it was your trouble with religion and Adam and Eve that must be answered in a correct manner. I took time off topic to answer to you. Maybe I shouldn't have. I should have send you that in pm. Thank you for underlining my mistakes.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #306 on: July 26, 2014, 11:57:46 AM »
The little boy's father then punishes the other boy as well by declaring him the lowest life form to ever have existed, as well as cutting off his arms and legs so that he can only crawl on the ground.

Minor mistake here. Sorry.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #307 on: July 26, 2014, 12:00:17 PM »
2) What kind of brain did your god originally create mankind with
2. A fallible brain.

We have fallible brains. But weren't created with one. Sin and evolution made them fallible.

Would you care to explain this discrepancy? 

Can you understand why you are viewed with such suspicion?  Why you are finding it so hard to get your point across?
I'll answer with a quote from SevenPatch :
I can probably help with this discussion.

Anfauglir,

When Lukvance responded to your question he tried to give two different answers, one based on the English definition of infallible and one based on his definition of infallible.  It would seem that Lukvance is contradicting himself but really, at least he is trying to communicate based on the English definition of words and how he understands words.

The English definition of “Infallible” is a person not capable of making a mistake or error.  Morality is subjective so stealing to feed a starving child may or may not be wrong depending on perspective and it is not clear if a mistake was made one way or the other again depending on perspective.  Therefore a person doesn’t need to know what is objectively moral (if such a thing exists) in order to be infallible.  Additionally, not knowing something isn’t necessarily a mistake or error either, so one doesn’t need to be omniscient to be infallible either. <--- This was my general interpretation of the word infallible.  Lukvance was able to understand this and then submitted his idea that “God” made us with a brain not capable of making a mistake or error (an infallible brain) which then evolved into a fallible brain for some reason (I didn’t even bother continuing the discussion after that point).

Anyway, Lukvance’s definition of “infallible” includes absolute knowledge of objective morality and omniscience.  For him, in order to be infallible, a person must know everything and know objective morality.  I would assume, only “God” would be infallible.  Based on this definition, “God” did not create humans with omniscience and knowledge of objective morality.

UNFORTUNATELY, Lukvance is either avoiding the problem or doesn’t even recognize the problem.

If “God” created humans with an infallible brain (English definition) and now we have fallible brains (for an unknown reason or perhaps evolution as Lukvance claims) then having fallible brains must have been “God’s” plan all along.  Lukvance GUESSES that it wasn’t “God’s” plan, so then another problem arises where things happen that aren’t part of “God’s” plan.  If that is the case then “God” is no longer infallible and omniscient and not worthy of being described as a god.  Long story short, the question in the thread title means that “God” if it exists has to be considered evil or a trickster god (no if’s, and’s or but’s).   

The definition used by Lukvance is kind of useless as it doesn’t really address the question which is intended to be asked.  I suppose that maybe the use of the word fallible is confusing to Lukvance.  To him, the thread title is like asking “Why didn’t “God” make me a god”?  It is kind of a boring question not really worth discussing unless maybe you’re already bored.

To me, it is far more interesting to ask “why would “God” make us with brains capable of making mistakes and/or being tricked?” which is how I interpret the thread title question.

It would appear that when Lukvance says “and we rejected him (sin)” that “the fall” is the explanation for why our brains are now capable of making mistakes, although that would imply that rejecting “God” was not a mistake (perhaps Kcrady would agree lol), this would then support the hypothesis that if “God” exists then it is an evil or trickster god. 
In other words your quotes comes from 2 different context. Each one with its meanings of infallible.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #308 on: July 26, 2014, 12:07:32 PM »
man did not know right from wrong -> this whole area was missing
Could you back up that claim please?
I mean we understand that there is a difference between knowing right from wrong and having the capacity to know right from wrong without ever experiencing it? Or maybe I am the only one thinking that?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #309 on: July 26, 2014, 12:11:29 PM »
If it were missing, then God must have said, "Now man has disobeyed I will give him the knowledge that only gods possess." This seems stupid, doesn't it? Why give a gift, possessed only by gods, as a reward for disobedience?
It seems stupid and it comes from your imagination. I'm not saying that you are stupid but it is you that is exposing your own logic. (or non logic in this case)

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Are you calling God a liar?
No. I'm calling your imagination :)
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #310 on: July 26, 2014, 12:25:32 PM »
man did not know right from wrong -> this whole area was missing
Could you back up that claim please?
I mean we understand that there is a difference between knowing right from wrong and having the capacity to know right from wrong without ever experiencing it? Or maybe I am the only one thinking that?

Do you not understand that, if the story is true, in Eden, there was no wrong prior to the consumption of the fruit. Hence A&E had no experience to base decisions on. That god told them not to do something must have been very strange to them.

The story is told as a great moral lesson. But to people who already know the basics. A&E could not know what wrong was, because until they did it, wrong didn't exist.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #311 on: July 26, 2014, 12:35:36 PM »
man did not know right from wrong -> this whole area was missing
Could you back up that claim please?
I mean we understand that there is a difference between knowing right from wrong and having the capacity to know right from wrong without ever experiencing it? Or maybe I am the only one thinking that?

Wow.  Seriously?  You edit out the supporting evidence FROM the Bible in the very post you are quoting, and then ask for supporting evidence?

Luk,
is there something wrong with you?
The Bible says: Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Please note the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Is this your way of answering the question asking what is wrong with you; by demonstrating your delusional behavior?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 12:40:14 PM by SevenPatch »
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #312 on: July 26, 2014, 12:36:29 PM »
Wow.  Seriously?  You edit out the supporting evidence FROM the Bible in the very post you are quoting, and then ask for supporting evidence?

That's because he's a troll.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #313 on: July 26, 2014, 12:43:40 PM »
Wow.  Seriously?  You edit out the supporting evidence FROM the Bible in the very post you are quoting, and then ask for supporting evidence?

That's because he's a troll.

Yeah, but I'm an optimist, I'm (probably foolishly) holding out hope that he is just delusional, ignorant and brainwashed.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #314 on: July 26, 2014, 12:57:33 PM »
Yeah, but I'm an optimist, I'm (probably foolishly) holding out hope that he is just delusional, ignorant and brainwashed.

At least two of those things are true, regardless of which one of us is right.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #315 on: July 26, 2014, 02:17:41 PM »
man did not know right from wrong -> this whole area was missing
Could you back up that claim please?
Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
3:22 L`Éternel Dieu dit: Voici, l`homme est devenu comme l`un de nous, pour la connaissance du bien et du mal.

NB: there is no mention of "capacity" a concept that Bronze Age goat-herders probably lacked.
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I mean we understand that there is a difference between knowing right from wrong and having the capacity to know right from wrong without ever experiencing it? Or maybe I am the only one thinking that?
Yes, you probably are the only one. Your pretence at ignorance is in line with your belief in magic: if you throw away ignorance, you no longer believe in magic.

Essentially, your god did some magic and the pair understood, for the first time, morality. You see, in reward for listening to the serpent, God gave Adam and Eve the ability to make independent decisions (just like gods have) and thus morality, and thus (as you would say, but I would not) free will to follow god or not, to sin or not.

Regardless of all of this, Adam brain and Eve's brain originally, and as created, lacked something, or as we say in English, was fallible. Here's an unrecorded conversation in Eden:

Serpent: "I'm just seeing if your brain is fallible."
Adam: "OK"
Serpent: "What would you say if I set fire to Eve?"
Adam: "OK"
Serpent: "You don't think that it would be a bad thing?"
Adam: "Bad? Thing? Can you dumb it down a little, I don't know what you are really saying. You have said you will set fire to Eve... and...?"

Oh, one more thing: the Pope believes in evolution, and so the human brain evolved: do you think that at one point in its evolution, it was less than perfect?

Or are you some fundamentalist Catholic type who believes in El-Elyon[1] using magic to create everything?
 1. the creator God of the Bible
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 02:19:53 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #316 on: July 27, 2014, 05:00:08 PM »
man did not know right from wrong -> this whole area was missing
Could you back up that claim please?
Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
3:22 L`Éternel Dieu dit: Voici, l`homme est devenu comme l`un de nous, pour la connaissance du bien et du mal.

NB: there is no mention of "capacity" a concept that Bronze Age goat-herders probably lacked.
Quote
I mean we understand that there is a difference between knowing right from wrong and having the capacity to know right from wrong without ever experiencing it? Or maybe I am the only one thinking that?
Yes, you probably are the only one. Your pretence at ignorance is in line with your belief in magic: if you throw away ignorance, you no longer believe in magic.

Essentially, your god did some magic and the pair understood, for the first time, morality. You see, in reward for listening to the serpent, God gave Adam and Eve the ability to make independent decisions (just like gods have) and thus morality, and thus (as you would say, but I would not) free will to follow god or not, to sin or not.

Regardless of all of this, Adam brain and Eve's brain originally, and as created, lacked something, or as we say in English, was fallible. Here's an unrecorded conversation in Eden:

Serpent: "I'm just seeing if your brain is fallible."
Adam: "OK"
Serpent: "What would you say if I set fire to Eve?"
Adam: "OK"
Serpent: "You don't think that it would be a bad thing?"
Adam: "Bad? Thing? Can you dumb it down a little, I don't know what you are really saying. You have said you will set fire to Eve... and...?"

Oh, one more thing: the Pope believes in evolution, and so the human brain evolved: do you think that at one point in its evolution, it was less than perfect?

Or are you some fundamentalist Catholic type who believes in El-Elyon[1] using magic to create everything?
 1. the creator God of the Bible
behold,scripture that suggests there is a pantheon of gods,not just A GOD..... behold the man has become as one  of US.,,,,why do Christians ignore what is actually in their own scripture?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #317 on: July 28, 2014, 11:06:29 AM »
behold,scripture that suggests there is a pantheon of gods,not just A GOD..... behold the man has become as one  of US.,,,,why do Christians ignore what is actually in their own scripture?

Well as I have stated in the past,  I figured it was an artifact of language and writing style.  After seeing these videos I agree with you guys that there is a polytheistic religion that is evident in early scripture.  It is not just merely stylistic.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #318 on: July 28, 2014, 11:27:41 AM »
A newborn baby, a puppy dog, a flower, a pebble on the beach, a star, cannot be judged as moral or immoral, because they have no moral sense. You have to have a sense of morality, of what is right and what is wrong, before you can make the choice to do what is right and follow god's will. Isn't that correct, theist folks?

Without a moral sense and the ability to choose right or wrong, we might all obey god like unthinking robots, which, as all our Christian friends here frequently tell us, is not what god wants. God wants us to use our moral sense to freely choose to love and obey him. (And either get rewarded with heaven or else burn for all eternity. ;D)

So, A and E were obviously created with fallible brains that did not understand right and wrong-- they got that understanding after eating the apple. That is the point of the whole story: before the apple, A and E were innocent and unable to judge anything; they were instructed to obey-- like children or puppies or robots-- not told about morality or right and wrong. After the apple, they understood morality. They felt shame and fear; clearly they now knew what they had done was disobedient and therefore wrong; they understood right and wrong-- after the fact.

Now, if A and E were not able to understand right from wrong before eating the apple, and were just supposed to obey god without question, they were not able to "choose freely" to obey god or not.

Looks to me that A and E, as originally created, did not have free will! Free will, remember, that all important principle that god cannot violate, that is the reason god cannot show everyone in no uncertain terms that he exists and give everyone an equal chance to be saved? Free will did not exist until A and E ate the forbidden fruit.

Free will, then, came about because of the first sin committed by human beings. Anyone else catch that?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.