Author Topic: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?  (Read 6037 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #261 on: July 20, 2014, 01:29:30 PM »
Oh yes, it would be.  Fortunately not one I need to consider since it would only be you expressing YOUR thoughts and feelings.  Or do you have some actual evidence?
Yes of course. Actual evidence. Do you know what you are asking for?
Yes.  I. Am now asking for the actual evidence you have now clearly gone in record as having that is not your thoughts or feelings.
So present it.  For once, stop weaselling and dodging and stand up tall for your god and just go "here is the evidence" without any more bullshit and dodging.  You present a very poor advertisement for your god, when you have to weasel very topic so much.
You have actual evidence of your god.  Present it.
So you agree with me that it should be another discussion
Oh! I can't explain how that isn't our fathers that are just "expressing their thoughts/feelings". But I can give you reasons why you should listen to Catholicism instead of other religions. But isn't this another discussion/subject?
Oh yes, it would be.
then you require/demand an answer right now or prove your ground to insult me.
Why do you do that? What have you got to gain from that behavior? Does it makes you feel more powerful or something?
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #262 on: July 20, 2014, 01:53:07 PM »
2. "we rejected him (sin)"
There is a reason why we don't have an infallible brain today. As ParkingPlaces formulated it "[out fallible brain]came from an evolutionary process that wasn't all that worried about the specifics as long as procreation was still possible." This evolution was necessary only after we were cast out of heaven. We were cast out of Heaven because of sin. God is a perfect being. There is no reason why someone perfect would create something imperfect. Consequently God created us with a infallible brain but we don't have it anymore because of sin (and evolution)
[/quote]

You're putting words in my mouth again. You are equating what I mean by evolution with what you mean by evolution, and that is sort of like saying that chocolate and onions are identical because they are both foods.

By the way, the excuses you make for your far from perfect god are kind of cute. Cute in the same way a child in diapers is cute when he says "Oh-oh" and starts stinking up the place.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #263 on: July 20, 2014, 03:38:46 PM »
do you have some actual evidence?
Yes of course. Actual evidence
Yes.  I. Am now asking for the actual evidence you have now clearly gone in record as having that is not your thoughts or feelings.
So present it.
Why do you do that? What have you got to gain from that behavior? Does it makes you feel more powerful or something?

Present your evidence.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #264 on: July 20, 2014, 07:35:04 PM »
I am not here to debate the truth of the Old or new testament.
I do not think this is helpful as it was you who decided to disregard the OT, not I.
Quote
If it is important for you maybe you could create a new thread or start a debate on that subject then send me the link in mp. I'll gladly participate.
No, no, the Bible is not at all important to me but as you are a servant of Rome, I thought it might be important to you. However, if it is "important" I am just wondering why you invent "facts".

However, to an extent you have no choice but to debate the truth of the Old or new testament - if there is no truth then your god does not exist.

If your god does not exist, he cannot make anything, let alone a brain.

Quote
If it is important for you maybe you could create a new thread or start a debate on that subject then send me the link in mp. I'll gladly participate.
I don't usually award Darwins for "Class-leading condescension" but I was tempted there. Not only a dodge, but a dodge with arrogance. Bravo Luk, Bravo. 

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #265 on: July 21, 2014, 01:04:01 AM »
With respect to this site, there will be four kinds of theists.  Those who have answers, and those who do not.  And there will be those who want US to have answers, and those who do not.

Theists with no answers, but who want us to have answers, will be a small breed.  OCG might be one of these.  They will admit they cannot answer, and will move debate on.  I respect them, and it may be that by working for us to find answers, they will find answers themselves.

Theists with answers, and who want us to have answers, are the type I want to meet - because I would love to have answers, if there are answers to share.  Sadly, I've yet to meet this kind of believer on this site, but I would embrace them if they came.  Discussions would flow so easily - they would answer direct questions with direct answers, nothing would be evaded, it would be a joy to speak with them.

Theists with no answers, and who do not want us to have answers, are pitiful.  Lacking knowledge, they come here perhaps to feel better about themselves at our expense.  Lacking answers themselves, lost and scared maybe, they are here perhaps so they can think "I may know nothing, but at least the atheists know nothing too".  These are the ones I feel sorry for.

And finally, there will be theists with answers, who do not want us to have answers.  They would be here to gloat, to revel in their superiority and elite-ness.  At times cryptic and evasive, they cannot help but seem smug - of course they would, knowing truths that they will not share.  These people make me sad, and yes, angry too - but, I would hazard a guess, not as sad and angry as they make their god.

Lukvance, which of these four categories would you say that YOU fall into?  Do you have answers?  Do you want us to have answers?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #266 on: July 21, 2014, 09:17:32 AM »
So...freedom is NOT a fatal flaw?

Actually there are several answers to that.

Only God makes it a fatal flaw.  With gods rules and tests, freedom allows you to be wrong. 

The absence of information provided by an invisible god makes it a random fatal flaw.

Is freedom necessary for happiness?  Or are we as humans created to crave it.  In otherwords could god have made us perfect so that our freedom always yielded the correct answer and still had us be happy?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #267 on: July 21, 2014, 12:10:28 PM »
Lukvance, which of these four categories would you say that YOU fall into?  Do you have answers?  Do you want us to have answers?
Of course I want to give you answers. I also want to close a thread. There isn't one closed at the moment because you guys always want to know more about religion in general than the subject at hand.
I answered some of these questions and they led to more question which led the discussion totally off topic. I'm available to answer the question you have but I don't want to read comments like  "after so many post you did not answer the simple question that has been asked" when 99% of the posts are off subject.
There are many types of posters.

1. Those who find counter arguments to those presented and stay on subject, once the counter argument have been proven valid (or not) they move on another counter argument, without the need of insults.

2. Those who do not admit that their counter arguments have been invalidated and change the subject by presenting another counter argument or arguing on something completely different (usually, in this forum, the existence of God)

3. Those who don't care about the invalidation of their counter arguments and keep posting new subjects/opinions would it be on subject or not. (they just want to express themselves, be heard)

4. Those who keep the hate alive. Once the discussion start to make sense, the discussion is going down a path they don't like, use insults to underline how hateful the one disagreeing with them is. In the process effectively changing the subject. (because others follow)

Which one are you? Maybe there is a 5th class which is only yours. I'm curious on how you perceive yourself on this forum. I will gladly go through our discussion(s) and send you in PM your quotes that will support the category you set yourself in.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #268 on: July 21, 2014, 04:23:10 PM »
Lukvance, your types of posters are highly subjective.  What you think is an insult might not be seen as an insult by the person who made the statement or by anyone else, the same is true in reverse.  Sometimes people try to insult and I actually take what they said as a compliment.

Additionally, what you think is off topic, may exactly be on topic and a relevant point which you are not considering or ignoring.

Just because you don't think something is on topic, doesn't mean that it actually isn't. 

"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #269 on: July 22, 2014, 12:07:38 PM »
Lukvance, your types of posters are highly subjective.  What you think is an insult might not be seen as an insult by the person who made the statement or by anyone else, the same is true in reverse.  Sometimes people try to insult and I actually take what they said as a compliment.

Additionally, what you think is off topic, may exactly be on topic and a relevant point which you are not considering or ignoring.

Just because you don't think something is on topic, doesn't mean that it actually isn't.
I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that I am also right. Sometime people post replies off topic like I am doing right now.
Sometime people really want to insult the other person. (I have a few example of those if you want, no ambiguity)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #270 on: July 22, 2014, 12:16:36 PM »
I, unlike you, Lukvance, will demonstrate the Christian virtue of charity and not smite you for your ectopic post. Even though you have behaved like a petty, narrow-minded little sh!t on this forum. Would you have smited me if I had been critical of Islam or Hinduism instead of Catholicism? I think not.

Now, as a good Sikh, I will forgive you with dignity and strength.

As a good Rasta queen, I will embrace Jah love on your behalf.

As a good Wicca, I will send good nature thoughts your way.

And as a good Buddhist, I will now let this issue go.

Ommmmmmmm. :angel:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #271 on: July 23, 2014, 12:54:01 AM »
do you have some actual evidence?
Yes of course. Actual evidence
Yes.  I. Am now asking for the actual evidence you have now clearly gone in record as having that is not your thoughts or feelings.
So present it.
Why do you do that? What have you got to gain from that behavior? Does it makes you feel more powerful or something?

Present your evidence.

Lukvance, which of these four categories would you say that YOU fall into?  Do you have answers?  Do you want us to have answers?
Of course I want to give you answers.

Then present your evidence.  Do it here, or start a new thread, I don't care.  Lets just see this actual evidence you have, that is not your thoughts or feelings, these answers that you are so prepared to give.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #272 on: July 23, 2014, 12:58:14 AM »
There are many types of posters......Which one are you? Maybe there is a 5th class which is only yours.

I'm the class that when someone says:

(God) created us with an infallible brain

We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite.

I expect them to clearly explain the contradiction between the two statements....rather than go off on another digression.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #273 on: July 23, 2014, 11:14:55 AM »
Yeah, most of us atheists are the kind of posters who:

1) expect clear answers to clear questions,

2) try to give clear answers to clear questions,

3) are willing to say we don't know if we don't know

4) are willing to go look sh!t up if we don't know

5) change our minds when given sufficient evidence
and perhaps most importantly,

6) can admit we are wrong when we are wrong instead of defending wrong answers just to protect our egos and beliefs.

How do I know most of us fit this category? Easy.

Because, even before we began posting here, most of us were religious.

We believed in god--Jehovah, Jesus, Allah, the great guru, etc. We asked questions about what we did not know, expected clear answers (that we often did not get) looked sh!t up and found out we were wrong, admitted we were wrong, and eventually, changed our minds. That is how we became atheists.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #274 on: July 23, 2014, 11:19:21 AM »
Then present your evidence.  Do it here, or start a new thread, I don't care.  Lets just see this actual evidence you have, that is not your thoughts or feelings, these answers that you are so prepared to give.
You can read about them here : http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26874.0.html
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #275 on: July 23, 2014, 11:25:26 AM »
There are many types of posters......Which one are you? Maybe there is a 5th class which is only yours.

I'm the class that when someone says:

(God) created us with an infallible brain

We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite.

I expect them to clearly explain the contradiction between the two statements....rather than go off on another digression.
I explained it :
We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)
So if we were originally created with this infallible brain that you now claim is impossible, we wouldn't have made the wrong choice - but we did - so clearly we were NOT created with infallible brains.

I don't think you have the faintest idea WHAT you mean.
You miss quote me. Not cool.
For me, with the sense of right and wrong I give to infallible. We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)
Please follow.
In other words. You misquote me. Those 2 sentences are opposite because the sense given to right and wrong is different.
Do I need to explain further? Is there something that you are missing?
If this is the class that you are I guess it correspond to #2
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #276 on: July 23, 2014, 12:38:02 PM »
I can probably help with this discussion.

Anfauglir,

When Lukvance responded to your question he tried to give two different answers, one based on the English definition of infallible and one based on his definition of infallible.  It would seem that Lukvance is contradicting himself but really, at least he is trying to communicate based on the English definition of words and how he understands words.

The English definition of “Infallible” is a person not capable of making a mistake or error.  Morality is subjective so stealing to feed a starving child may or may not be wrong depending on perspective and it is not clear if a mistake was made one way or the other again depending on perspective.  Therefore a person doesn’t need to know what is objectively moral (if such a thing exists) in order to be infallible.  Additionally, not knowing something isn’t necessarily a mistake or error either, so one doesn’t need to be omniscient to be infallible either. <--- This was my general interpretation of the word infallible.  Lukvance was able to understand this and then submitted his idea that “God” made us with a brain not capable of making a mistake or error (an infallible brain) which then evolved into a fallible brain for some reason (I didn’t even bother continuing the discussion after that point).

Anyway, Lukvance’s definition of “infallible” includes absolute knowledge of objective morality and omniscience.  For him, in order to be infallible, a person must know everything and know objective morality.  I would assume, only “God” would be infallible.  Based on this definition, “God” did not create humans with omniscience and knowledge of objective morality.

UNFORTUNATELY, Lukvance is either avoiding the problem or doesn’t even recognize the problem.

If “God” created humans with an infallible brain (English definition) and now we have fallible brains (for an unknown reason or perhaps evolution as Lukvance claims) then having fallible brains must have been “God’s” plan all along.  Lukvance GUESSES that it wasn’t “God’s” plan, so then another problem arises where things happen that aren’t part of “God’s” plan.  If that is the case then “God” is no longer infallible and omniscient and not worthy of being described as a god.  Long story short, the question in the thread title means that “God” if it exists has to be considered evil or a trickster god (no if’s, and’s or but’s).   

The definition used by Lukvance is kind of useless as it doesn’t really address the question which is intended to be asked.  I suppose that maybe the use of the word fallible is confusing to Lukvance.  To him, the thread title is like asking “Why didn’t “God” make me a god”?  It is kind of a boring question not really worth discussing unless maybe you’re already bored.

To me, it is far more interesting to ask “why would “God” make us with brains capable of making mistakes and/or being tricked?” which is how I interpret the thread title question.

It would appear that when Lukvance says “and we rejected him (sin)” that “the fall” is the explanation for why our brains are now capable of making mistakes, although that would imply that rejecting “God” was not a mistake (perhaps Kcrady would agree lol), this would then support the hypothesis that if “God” exists then it is an evil or trickster god. 

This whole thread is another futile exercise of Lukvance avoiding having to come to rational or logical conclusions that he doesn’t like. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 12:39:49 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #277 on: July 23, 2014, 05:04:33 PM »
rejecting “God” was not a mistake
It wasn't because we had a fallible brain that we made this mistake. Infallible brains are allowed to do mistakes like loving the wrong person. The information Adam and Eve had was false (given by the snake). Adam and Eve could have had infallible brain and still make this choice.

God is still perfect in the sense that his plan isn't short term like our lifetime. I believe that His original plan was for Adam and Eve to live forever in the garden of Eden (and in one of our parallel universes it is what happened) Now the plan adapted so we can live forever, by his side, after our death.

Ps : Thank you for your clarifications.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #278 on: July 23, 2014, 05:05:56 PM »
I also thought that "infallible" meant "unable to make a mistake". That would mean that A and E had perfect brains. They did not make any mistakes and eating the apple was therefore part of god's plan for humanity.

The fall from grace, the sin, the suffering, the cursed existence to be saved by the sacrifice Jesus-- all planned out in advance, and made necessary by god himself. A god like that would indeed be a tricky dicky. Worthy of fear and wariness, but not love, worship or even basic respect.

If A and E were capable of making a mistake, they were made with brains that were wired wrong from the get-go. Eating the apple was therefore not a part of god's plan for humanity. It was a screw up.

A god like that would be a bumbling incompetent, a maker of shoddy products. You might be able to love such a god, the way you love crazy old Uncle Billy. But no way could you trust, respect and certainly not worship such a being. In fact you could probably figure out how to trick this god yourself.

How do we get from the A and E story to the god worthy of worship again?  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #279 on: July 23, 2014, 05:12:55 PM »
I also thought that "infallible" meant "unable to make a mistake". That would mean that A and E had perfect brains. They did not make any mistakes and eating the apple was therefore part of god's plan for humanity.
Yay we thought the same thing. In that scenario, God did NOT make us with infallible brain because we are not infinite. In order to NEVER make a mistake we MUST be omniscient...or is it me that is still misunderstanding the meaning of mistake :( arrg.
Anyway you have the 2 answers to the question asked.

Quote
How do we get from the A and E story to the god worthy of worship again?  :?
I don't know.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #280 on: July 23, 2014, 06:57:25 PM »
rejecting “God” was not a mistake
It wasn't because we had a fallible brain that we made this mistake. Infallible brains are allowed to do mistakes like loving the wrong person.

Okay, you are really confusing things here again.  The bizarre thing is I have to think like you in order to translate what you’re saying so others will understand you. 

Now it seems like your trying to say that “loving the wrong person” is what you would consider a mistake.  That would be your definition of Infallible and fallible.  Throwing love into the mix is even more complicated than just morality and knowledge though. 

In the scenario though where we use the English definition of Infallible, it was not a mistake for Adam and Eve to reject “God”.  They evaluated what “God” told them, what the snake told them and determined that eating the fruit was the correct course of action and because “God” made their brains not capable of making a mistake, they were indeed correct in their decision.  Now, was it right or wrong to do this?  They had no way of knowing before eating the fruit.  The fruit was precisely the knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong), SO perhaps afterwards they would have realized that they were wrong to disobey “God” but they would have also realized that “God” was wrong to lie to them as they did not die as “God” told them they would.   

I don’t think you necessarily disagree with this although again, you seem to be omitting the effect of the conclusions you’re making.


The information Adam and Eve had was false (given by the snake). Adam and Eve could have had infallible brain and still make this choice.

Well, wait a second here.  “God” told Adam and Eve something and the snake told them something.  Choosing to follow false information would be a mistake obviously.  Perhaps they didn’t know that it was false information.  If Adam and Eve had brains not capable of making a mistake or being tricked, then they wouldn’t have made a decision to follow information that might be false due to the lack of knowing whether it is false or not.  Doing otherwise would mean they had fallible brains, but they had infallible brains.  Remember Lukvance, this is where the no answer would come in.  If Adam and Eve couldn’t determine that what the snake was saying was true, then they would have stuck with the status quo, not eating the fruit.

If Adam and Eve were not capable of making a mistake or being tricked, then that means the snake was telling the truth and Adam and Eve were correct to reject “God”.

God is still perfect in the sense that his plan isn't short term like our lifetime. I believe that His original plan was for Adam and Eve to live forever in the garden of Eden (and in one of our parallel universes it is what happened) Now the plan adapted so we can live forever, by his side, after our death.

Okay whatever.  Parallel universes now?  Really?  Yeah you don’t go off topic.  &)

Ps : Thank you for your clarifications.

No prob, seemed like a waste of time to go back and forth on  what you were saying.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #281 on: July 23, 2014, 08:12:53 PM »
He is confusing you because he can barley keep up with his own fucking lies and contradictions. The funny thing is that it is him contradicting himself.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #282 on: July 24, 2014, 03:25:59 AM »
Then present your evidence.  Do it here, or start a new thread, I don't care.  Lets just see this actual evidence you have, that is not your thoughts or feelings, these answers that you are so prepared to give.
You can read about them here : http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26874.0.html

I looked.  I saw arguments in the first post, not evidence.  Can you point me to the specific posts where you provide the actual evidence you said you had please? 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #283 on: July 24, 2014, 03:32:13 AM »
Thanks to Sevenpatch for the assistance - I think it would be useful (given there is still apparently some confusion) is Lukvance could answer the following questions.

1) Please define "fallible" and "infallible" as you are using it.
2) What kind of brain did your god originally create mankind with - using your definitions from (1).
3) Does mankind still have the same type of brain as god created mankind with?
4) If there has been a change, is this change part of your god's plan or intention?


I apologise if I have inadvertently misquoted you.  If I did so, it is (so far as I can tell) because at two different stages in this thread, you were using different definitions of fallible/infallible - I'm sure you can see how that would lead to problems.  I honestly believe that a clear summary would therefore be extremely useful at this point, to clear up any confusion.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #284 on: July 24, 2014, 08:26:58 AM »
Adam and Eve could have had infallible brain and still make this choice.
The Bible makes it absolutely clear that Adam and Eve had incomplete brains. Brains that lacked what our brains now possess - a moral dimension.

Of course, as I have often said, as a Catholic, you would not know much about the Bible, but, if you want (and if your priest agrees that you may) you can look at a Bible and see

Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Theologically, this is a difficult point: it shows that God did not give us morals, rather that we gained morals by disobedience to God and listening to the serpent.

Ask your priest for an answer to that conundrum, I am no longer much interested in your "guesses" which have proved unreliable both theologically and in reality.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 08:34:10 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #285 on: July 24, 2014, 11:50:26 AM »
1) Please define "fallible" and "infallible" as you are using it.
2) What kind of brain did your god originally create mankind with - using your definitions from (1).
3) Does mankind still have the same type of brain as god created mankind with?
4) If there has been a change, is this change part of your god's plan or intention?
1. Fallible brain : A brain that can be wrong. Would it be morally or not.
Infallible brain : A brain that can never be wrong. it cannot make mistake in any form. Omniscient.
2. A fallible brain.
3. No, our brain evolved. I don't believe that Adam and Eve were made of mater (meaning they are characters in a story, not historical characters)
4. Yes. But I'm not sure.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #286 on: July 24, 2014, 12:01:15 PM »
Adam and Eve could have had infallible brain and still make this choice.
The Bible makes it absolutely clear that Adam and Eve had incomplete brains. Brains that lacked what our brains now possess - a moral dimension.

Of course, as I have often said, as a Catholic, you would not know much about the Bible, but, if you want (and if your priest agrees that you may) you can look at a Bible and see

Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Theologically, this is a difficult point: it shows that God did not give us morals, rather that we gained morals by disobedience to God and listening to the serpent.

Ask your priest for an answer to that conundrum, I am no longer much interested in your "guesses" which have proved unreliable both theologically and in reality.
That's funny because I had the same question when I was younger.
The capacity of knowing right from wrong, we were created with. If not we wouldn't be able to do it. So God created us with the moral dimension in our brain.
We just didn't use it, following him blindly. And this was good.
One day we chose that we knew better than God our creator what was better for us. That's when we ate the forbidden fruit and were cast to earth.
When God says "one of us" I understand "one of those with the capacity to say no to God" like angels and the trinity.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #287 on: July 24, 2014, 01:36:50 PM »
Adam and Eve could have had infallible brain and still make this choice.
The Bible makes it absolutely clear that Adam and Eve had incomplete brains. Brains that lacked what our brains now possess - a moral dimension.

Of course, as I have often said, as a Catholic, you would not know much about the Bible, but, if you want (and if your priest agrees that you may) you can look at a Bible and see

Ge:3:22a & b: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Theologically, this is a difficult point: it shows that God did not give us morals, rather that we gained morals by disobedience to God and listening to the serpent.

Ask your priest for an answer to that conundrum, I am no longer much interested in your "guesses" which have proved unreliable both theologically and in reality.
That's funny because I had the same question when I was younger.
The capacity of knowing right from wrong, we were created with. If not we wouldn't be able to do it. So God created us with the moral dimension in our brain.
We just didn't use it, following him blindly. And this was good.
One day we chose that we knew better than God our creator what was better for us. That's when we ate the forbidden fruit and were cast to earth.
When God says "one of us" I understand "one of those with the capacity to say no to God" like angels and the trinity.

Read that sentence in red.  Then read this whole thread: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=26621.0
Then read the sentence in red again.  Then read the thread again.

You're not going to recognize the contradictions in your position because you're comically stupid, but it's plainly there.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #288 on: July 24, 2014, 02:35:42 PM »
Hehe you are right. I made a mistake. We were created with moral. If not we couldn't have use it. The rest is useless when it comes to talk about God and how he created us.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #289 on: July 24, 2014, 04:40:07 PM »
Perfect brains would never make mistakes, would always make the right moral choice. God created us with less than perfect brains, brains that could make the wrong moral choice. That had to be god's plan, to make us that way, since he made us that way. If he had a different plan, he would have made us differently.

Since he intentionally made humans that way, he knew that we would make the wrong moral choice at some point. That also had to be his plan. Then, after making the wrong moral choice (whether due to the serpent or not, does not matter here because it is still the human who did wrong) he punished humans severely, every generation. That was also in his plan.

We were created with brains that could make mistakes. And were punished for making mistakes, using brains that were designed to make mistakes. God planned it that way.

That is like breaking your dog's leg, and then giving it to the pound because his limping annoys you.  It is like trashing your own home in a drunken rage, and then having an arsonist burn the house down because it is such a pit. It is like a father throwing his daughter out of the house for being a prostitute-- when he is her pimp.

What is the A and E story not like? The actions of loving parents who care unconditionally for their children.

Any analogy you think up for this godly scenario is so repellent as to boggle the mind. How is that fair, just, kind or loving? How does the power and authority not rest entirely with god in this scenario? Didn't he know what he was doing when he created humans the way he did, innocent, immature, curious and gullible? A and E are like overgrown babies, right up until they do what babies normally do--color outside the lines-- and then get punished as if they were fully responsible, mature adults.

The only way this story even makes sense as a fictional myth is if the bible god is the same as the other ancient deities-- powerful, but not omnipotent; caring, but not completely benevolent; knowledgeable, but not omniscient. In other words, god in the bible stories is just like Krishna, Zeus or Shango: sometimes angry and vengeful, sometimes nice and generous, sometimes unwise and incautious, or capricious, or jealous, or guiltily distracted by a pretty goddess or human female. Fate affects the gods as well as the humans, and makes everyone's plans backfire or turn out differently. 

Then the A and E story is just another cautionary tale of what happens when people or gods try to do right--they can still screw up: see Icarus, King Midas, Pandora or Loki. The lesson is not "always obey god no matter what and everything will turn out well" like Christians might want to think.  The lesson is "do the best you can, things just are the way they are and sometimes not even gods can outsmart or outflank fate."

Hardly a story about the ultimate creator of the universe, just a story about a larger than life version of a normal human king. How he became all that and a bag of chips is the result of the endless "my god is bigger than your god" contest between the ancient peoples. The rest is dramatic irony.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.