Author Topic: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?  (Read 6039 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #203 on: July 16, 2014, 03:27:37 AM »
Right.  So the Bible, as it stands, is deficient.  It does NOT contain everything you need to know.  It certainly cannot be complete and perfect if it requires someone to say "see, what this bit means is......"
Exactly, the Bible is not perfect. You should listen more carefully during Catechism, you wouldn't use such claims as a counter argument.

Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #204 on: July 16, 2014, 03:43:17 AM »
...if god created us with infallible brains, is he now content or discontent that that is no longer the situation?

Neither. God knows only one emotion, Love. (and it is more than the love that you know)

Really?  Then I guess a lot of the Bible IS incorrect, since there are many instances where Yahweh claims different emotions.

I guess you still think of the Old testament as an historical/factual book, right? If not, why do you think these emotions aren't just part of the story? That they are real?

Just to keep the pertinent parts in the quote tree - I know how good you are are moving away from the point.

No: I don't think the OT is factual at all.  But so what: I don't think Soap Operas are factual at all - but when a character in a soap expresses an emotion, I presume that the intent of the writers is to ascribe that emotion to that character.  You - the TV critic, if you like - are now trying to tell me "you know when that character seemed really angry?  He wasn't - that was a failing by the writeres, because all he can ever be is loving".

By discounting the emotions of the story, it means that there remains nothing to hang any truth on.  What god actually did?  Didn't happen - allegorical.  But if the allegory itself is flawed, because all the traits that are ascribed to god in those books are ALSO not real......then nothing of any substance is left.

What you are left with, is a book that cannot be trusted for the facts, cannot be trusted in the metaphors, that requires reams of speculation over centuries afterwards to try to make it fit.  And, I will add, by removing all vestiges of truth or meaning from the OT, you leave no reason whatsoever to accept that the NT is anything different.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #205 on: July 16, 2014, 07:54:36 AM »
Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".


Oh Lukvance,

This seems like it really deserves an answer.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #206 on: July 16, 2014, 08:06:43 AM »
^^^Seconded.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #207 on: July 16, 2014, 12:03:38 PM »
I can't wait for Lukvance to wiggle out of this. To quote the great Lord Veternari, "I am agog." :D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #208 on: July 16, 2014, 05:11:54 PM »
Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".
Yes. Yes and I can't. Even if it was them expressing their thoughts/feelings you should listen to them. Like your parents before you, they might be wrong but usually are not.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #209 on: July 16, 2014, 05:29:24 PM »
...if god created us with infallible brains, is he now content or discontent that that is no longer the situation?

Neither. God knows only one emotion, Love. (and it is more than the love that you know)

Really?  Then I guess a lot of the Bible IS incorrect, since there are many instances where Yahweh claims different emotions.

I guess you still think of the Old testament as an historical/factual book, right? If not, why do you think these emotions aren't just part of the story? That they are real?

Just to keep the pertinent parts in the quote tree - I know how good you are are moving away from the point.

No: I don't think the OT is factual at all.  But so what: I don't think Soap Operas are factual at all - but when a character in a soap expresses an emotion, I presume that the intent of the writers is to ascribe that emotion to that character.  You - the TV critic, if you like - are now trying to tell me "you know when that character seemed really angry?  He wasn't - that was a failing by the writeres, because all he can ever be is loving".

By discounting the emotions of the story, it means that there remains nothing to hang any truth on.  What god actually did?  Didn't happen - allegorical.  But if the allegory itself is flawed, because all the traits that are ascribed to god in those books are ALSO not real......then nothing of any substance is left.

What you are left with, is a book that cannot be trusted for the facts, cannot be trusted in the metaphors, that requires reams of speculation over centuries afterwards to try to make it fit.  And, I will add, by removing all vestiges of truth or meaning from the OT, you leave no reason whatsoever to accept that the NT is anything different.
I understand how you could have such a conclusion about the Bible. You did not get the teaching that comes with it when you read the Bible, or maybe your teacher wasn't that good.
I like the analogy you had about the play and the tv critic. I would make the following correction.I would have said " Attention It's not because that character in the play represented an evil plumber, that all plumbers are evil"
It is not because God is represented in the Old testament with emotions that he really has emotions.
In the old testament the lesson is real. For example on of the lessons In Adam and Eve story is "do not listen to the devil". Even if the serpent did not really talk or the tree wasn't real. Heck nothing was real but that doesn't change the morality.
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #210 on: July 16, 2014, 05:45:47 PM »
You know I haven't bothered with you for a long time because I thought you were a hopeless case who would not learn anything.

Just out of curiosity to see if I was right, can you make a long list of things you have learned here so far?
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #211 on: July 16, 2014, 06:43:22 PM »
I like the analogy you had about the play and the tv critic. I would make the following correction.I would have said " Attention It's not because that character in the play represented an evil plumber, that all plumbers are evil"
The only way this correction makes the slightest bit of sense is if you assume that the god described by the bible is not the god that you're talking about.  The only way this little tidbit of yours can even be considered relevant is if you assume that the god that is described in the bible, as either a fictional entity, non-perfect interpretation of the description of a real entity, or perfect description of a real entity is most assuredly not your god.

You're basically saying:
Attention: It's not because that character in the bible represented an evil god, that all gods are evil.

That character in the bible may be evil, but my god, you know, the one that is not described by the bible, is not evil.

How comfortable are you considering that the bible and god are not at all related.  That whatever is described about the god of the bible is not descriptive of your god.  That whatever is described in response to actions from the god of the bible are not responses to actions from your god.  That includes things like "sending his one and only son, Jesus Christ, to die for your salvation".  How comfortable are you with that?  How about your diocese?

Quote
It is not because God is represented in the Old testament with emotions that he really has emotions.
Well, perhaps you have some valid reason to believe that the god you believe exists is in some way related to/intertwined with the bible.  I'd like to know why that is.  However, in the mean time, perhaps you wish to consider that just because god is represented in the Old testament as real does not mean that he really exists?

Quote
In the old testament the lesson is real. For example on of the lessons In Adam and Eve story is "do not listen to the devil". Even if the serpent did not really talk or the tree wasn't real. Heck nothing was real but that doesn't change the morality.
You know, Mr. Go-to-the-Experts, skeptic54768 fancies himself to be at least well versed in the bible.  I'm not sure if he'd consider himself an expert on it, but needless to say I will simply concede that he is more of a biblical expert than myself.  He disagrees with you on this - I'm pretty sure he's not buying this "it's a sneakily-made metaphorical poem that starts the most holy of books off about the creation of reality, but oh no of course it's not meant to be taken seriouslyliterally.  None of that happened...well, unless it's pertinent to the arbitrarily-determined moral of the story, then yeah, it totally did." malarky.  What ever am I to do?

Besides that, there would be one very easy way to have had this cleared up: at the end of each metaphorical story, the bible had a Summary page.  I was a big fan of summary pages in school.  That was awesome!  A clear, direct, unambiguous f*cking blatant message that said:

Quote from: Desk of god (sent from my iPad)
"Here, jerkbag, is the damn point of the story that you had just read.
                                                            Signed,
                                                            God, all-mighty, maker of heaven and Earth

P.S.
Don't fret too much about the whole 'do I exist and what can you do for me' schtick.  I know other religious-ish peeps around you probably have these 'rules and regulations' and such about doing this or that to get salvation/avoid damnation/please me.  Instead, focus on the moral lessons and how they may apply to your life.  Yes, some stories have some liberties to make the reading experience more enjoyable and accessible, but fictional elements that are impertinent to the moral of the story will be circled, and, depending on time constraints, may have some additional notes to put those elements into some kind of historical context for the benefit of the many, many future generations of people that I care about to come."
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #212 on: July 16, 2014, 08:07:46 PM »
^^^^There you go. The bible needs annotations, the way Shakespeare plays have English to English translations to explain what "hoist with his own petard" meant.

I have elsewhere suggested that we atheists get together and annotate/highlight/summarize a bible for everyone's edification. We would be using everyday, common sense interpretations, and assume that the writers of the bible said exactly what they meant to say.

When they said it is okay to beat slaves as long as you don't kill them, that is exactly what they meant. When they said that a guy almost killed his son because god told him to, that is exactly what they meant. When they stated the proper payment to a father of a girl who was raped, and said that the rapist should marry the girl because she is now worthless on the marriage market, that is exactly what they meant. When they said Jesus cursed a fig tree and made it wither, that is exactly what they meant.

Because if they meant something different from what they wrote, then they should have written something different from what they wrote.

I will bet our interpretations will be as accurate as those of anyone who has spent ten years in theological studies learning that what the bible says is not really what it means.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #213 on: July 17, 2014, 06:01:06 AM »
It is not because God is represented in the Old testament with emotions that he really has emotions.

Thanks to jdawg for going into detail.  The point I will make is simply this.

In the OT, god is depicted with several emotions.
You say, god only has one.

If you are correct , then the OT is a terrible indicator of what god is really like - one might even say that it deliberately misrepresents him.  If I can't trust the OT to correctly establish something fairly basic about the character of god, then I have no reason to trust any other aspect of it.

Just consider for one moment that you are reading a conventional textbook, that contains some concepts you understand, and some you don't.  And say you read on one page something that entirely contradicts things that you KNOW[1] are absolutely correct......how much would you then trust that book on the concepts that previously you did NOT understand?  I'm not saying that error in one place guarantees error in others - I'm talking about the confidence level one should have once the first significant contradiction or error has been spotted.
 1. Please no sidetracks about books changing what you know - because all that would show in THIS analogy is that you would be agreeing with me that (contrary to your assertion before), god is NOT just Love, and perhaps he DOES have more emotions that the textbook - the Bible - is revealing to you.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #214 on: July 17, 2014, 06:27:18 AM »
Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".
Yes. Yes and I can't. Even if it was them expressing their thoughts/feelings you should listen to them. Like your parents before you, they might be wrong but usually are not.

Right.  So (reference the bold above) you cannot give me any reason why I should listen to what YOU say about the Bible or what the CCC say about the Bible, in preference over what Skeptic, or a Jew or a Muslim or an atheist, say about the Bible?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #215 on: July 17, 2014, 08:04:42 AM »
Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".
Yes. Yes and I can't. Even if it was them expressing their thoughts/feelings you should listen to them. Like your parents before you, they might be wrong but usually are not.

I listen to my parents but I filter it all through reason.  My father is a bright man, but when he gets on the subject of President Obama he goes off the tracks.  Obama is a muslim, bent on destruction of the USA, who is not a citizen.

Now Obama may not be a great christian but he is a horrible muslim, he does not pray to mecca 5 times a day on a rug.  No one has ever seen him do anything seriously muslim.

Obama may not be great for America, but there is no evidence that his goal is its destruction.

Obama's mothers citizenship is not up for debate, an child born to an American citizen is a defacto US citizen as long as the embasy is informed with the right paperwork.  That said there is no reason to believe that Obama's birth in Hawaii is false.  Do you really think that this conspiracy to fabricate his birth record dates back to the 60's?  Why did they fabricate the birth record decades ago?   Did they think a Obama was going to be a presidential candidate one day?  Did the Russians plant a black manchurian candidate in infancy in the US in hopes that he would one day bend to their will.  I would think such a plan was ill conceived being that in the 60's one would need to have been omnicient to know that society would accept a black man as president in 2012.

So should I believe the pope and staff when it comes to interpretation of the will of god?  These people with a vested interest maintaining the status quo know the unstated will of god?  The same people who believe that every woman on earth is incapable of filling the shoes of a priest?  The same people who decided that celibacy is a requirement of god for priesthood.  The same people who defended pedophiles as generations of alterboys were molested and mentally damaged.  These are the people you unquestioningly charge with interpreting the unwritten will of god?  Personally I think there is room for reason over faith in this matter.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #216 on: July 18, 2014, 09:09:09 AM »
I like the analogy you had about the play and the tv critic. I would make the following correction.I would have said " Attention It's not because that character in the play represented an evil plumber, that all plumbers are evil"
The only way this correction makes the slightest bit of sense is if you assume that the god described by the bible is not the god that you're talking about.  The only way this little tidbit of yours can even be considered relevant is if you assume that the god that is described in the bible, as either a fictional entity, non-perfect interpretation of the description of a real entity, or perfect description of a real entity is most assuredly not your god.

You're basically saying:
Attention: It's not because that character in the bible represented an evil god, that all gods are evil.

That character in the bible may be evil, but my god, you know, the one that is not described by the bible, is not evil.

How comfortable are you considering that the bible and god are not at all related.  That whatever is described about the god of the bible is not descriptive of your god.  That whatever is described in response to actions from the god of the bible are not responses to actions from your god.  That includes things like "sending his one and only son, Jesus Christ, to die for your salvation".  How comfortable are you with that?  How about your diocese?
I am quite comfortable. The God I believe in is not the one described by the old testament. He is the one underlined by Jesus in the New testament. The one who made the highest sacrifice of all, giving his life for humanity.

Quote
Well, perhaps you have some valid reason to believe that the god you believe exists is in some way related to/intertwined with the bible.  I'd like to know why that is.  However, in the mean time, perhaps you wish to consider that just because god is represented in the Old testament as real does not mean that he really exists?
I agree with you. It is not because God in the Old testament is presented as real that he really exist. Nor it is because he is presented as real in the New testament. You really ought to understand that for most of us, Catholics, the Bible is a "tool" given us by God to be able to reach him/understand/know him better. It is not proof of his existence/reality.

Quote
[skeptic54768] disagrees with you on this - I'm pretty sure he's not buying this "it's a sneakily-made metaphorical poem that starts the most holy of books off about the creation of reality, but oh no of course it's not meant to be taken seriouslyliterally.  None of that happened...well, unless it's pertinent to the arbitrarily-determined moral of the story, then yeah, it totally did." malarky.  What ever am I to do?
You do what your conscience tells you to do. That's the good thing.
I wish skeptic54768 would participate in a debate *cough*http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,27046.0.html*cough* but he apparently stays silent on that part.

Quote
Besides that, there would be one very easy way to have had this cleared up: at the end of each metaphorical story, the bible had a Summary page.  I was a big fan of summary pages in school.  That was awesome!  A clear, direct, unambiguous f*cking blatant message that said:

Quote from: Desk of god (sent from my iPad)
"Here, jerkbag, is the damn point of the story that you had just read.
                                                            Signed,
                                                            God, all-mighty, maker of heaven and Earth

P.S.
Don't fret too much about the whole 'do I exist and what can you do for me' schtick.  I know other religious-ish peeps around you probably have these 'rules and regulations' and such about doing this or that to get salvation/avoid damnation/please me.  Instead, focus on the moral lessons and how they may apply to your life.  Yes, some stories have some liberties to make the reading experience more enjoyable and accessible, but fictional elements that are impertinent to the moral of the story will be circled, and, depending on time constraints, may have some additional notes to put those elements into some kind of historical context for the benefit of the many, many future generations of people that I care about to come."

Where in real life do you find this kind of summary page?
I agree that would have been possible to add such a summary, who knows? maybe there was and "someone" ripped it of.
I believe that we don't need such pages since God sent prophets and then Jesus on earth to "redirect" us whenever we strayed too far from the goal.
Today we have people available 24/7 to answer our doubts about this or that message from the bible. Available to explain to us what was the lesson there and how we can apply it to our everyday lives. There are more than one so we can make sure that the interpretation is not only one person opinion.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #217 on: July 18, 2014, 09:20:02 AM »
The one who made the highest sacrifice of all, giving his life for humanity.

Interesting.  I think a greater sacrifice is when one gives up his life for another.  If I knew it would end all war and disease I think I might give up my life.  The guy who gives up his life 1 for 1 for a stranger is possibly more dedicated.

the mountain climber dangling from a rope after a fall cuts himself away to save his friend.

The guy who steps in front of a bullet to save a kid.

To sacrifice myself for 1 human seems like a more nobel act.  At least on the epidemic nobility to sacrifice meter.


Especially when you put knowledge into the equation.  Jesus being god knew it was coming, knew ***KNEW*** he would not really die, knew he would go to heaven.  Any atheist who risks his life to save another puts far more on the line.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 09:23:45 AM by epidemic »

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #218 on: July 18, 2014, 09:38:08 AM »
It is not because God is represented in the Old testament with emotions that he really has emotions.

Thanks to jdawg for going into detail.  The point I will make is simply this.

In the OT, god is depicted with several emotions.
You say, god only has one.

If you are correct , then the OT is a terrible indicator of what god is really like - one might even say that it deliberately misrepresents him.  If I can't trust the OT to correctly establish something fairly basic about the character of god, then I have no reason to trust any other aspect of it.

Just consider for one moment that you are reading a conventional textbook, that contains some concepts you understand, and some you don't.  And say you read on one page something that entirely contradicts things that you KNOW[1] are absolutely correct......how much would you then trust that book on the concepts that previously you did NOT understand?  I'm not saying that error in one place guarantees error in others - I'm talking about the confidence level one should have once the first significant contradiction or error has been spotted.
 1. Please no sidetracks about books changing what you know - because all that would show in THIS analogy is that you would be agreeing with me that (contrary to your assertion before), god is NOT just Love, and perhaps he DOES have more emotions that the textbook - the Bible - is revealing to you.
I understand how it can be difficult to remove the old testament from all discussion since most of the "bad" things happen in it. But Jesus came on earth to correct that mistake people where doing. People lost their trust in the old testament and started a new religion Christianism. This religion was based on Jesus instead of stories of the ancient time.
I don't say that God has only one emotion. This is something you concluded by yourself. I say that I don't know if he has emotion. Because he is perfect and emotions comes from imperfection. Emotion is a human thing. We might want to give him emotion only so we can be closer to him.
Don't trust the Old Testament. Trust your conscience. And base your faith (if you want to have some) on the New Testament.
Then again Apocalypse is in the New Testament so...base your faith in the Gospels :) use the rest of the bible as "add-ons". But most importantly, trust your conscience.
I hope we can now come back to the subject at hand. Our now fallible brain that wasn't when God created us. Or close the thread.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #219 on: July 18, 2014, 09:40:59 AM »
Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".
Yes. Yes and I can't. Even if it was them expressing their thoughts/feelings you should listen to them. Like your parents before you, they might be wrong but usually are not.

Right.  So (reference the bold above) you cannot give me any reason why I should listen to what YOU say about the Bible or what the CCC say about the Bible, in preference over what Skeptic, or a Jew or a Muslim or an atheist, say about the Bible?
Oh! I can't explain how that isn't our fathers that are just "expressing their thoughts/feelings". But I can give you reasons why you should listen to Catholicism instead of other religions. But isn't this another discussion/subject?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #220 on: July 18, 2014, 09:49:53 AM »
Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".
Yes. Yes and I can't. Even if it was them expressing their thoughts/feelings you should listen to them. Like your parents before you, they might be wrong but usually are not.

I listen to my parents but I filter it all through reason.  My father is a bright man, but when he gets on the subject of President Obama he goes off the tracks.  Obama is a muslim, bent on destruction of the USA, who is not a citizen.

Now Obama may not be a great christian but he is a horrible muslim, he does not pray to mecca 5 times a day on a rug.  No one has ever seen him do anything seriously muslim.

Obama may not be great for America, but there is no evidence that his goal is its destruction.

Obama's mothers citizenship is not up for debate, an child born to an American citizen is a defacto US citizen as long as the embasy is informed with the right paperwork.  That said there is no reason to believe that Obama's birth in Hawaii is false.  Do you really think that this conspiracy to fabricate his birth record dates back to the 60's?  Why did they fabricate the birth record decades ago?   Did they think a Obama was going to be a presidential candidate one day?  Did the Russians plant a black manchurian candidate in infancy in the US in hopes that he would one day bend to their will.  I would think such a plan was ill conceived being that in the 60's one would need to have been omnicient to know that society would accept a black man as president in 2012.

So should I believe the pope and staff when it comes to interpretation of the will of god?  These people with a vested interest maintaining the status quo know the unstated will of god?  The same people who believe that every woman on earth is incapable of filling the shoes of a priest?  The same people who decided that celibacy is a requirement of god for priesthood.  The same people who defended pedophiles as generations of alterboys were molested and mentally damaged.  These are the people you unquestioningly charge with interpreting the unwritten will of god?  Personally I think there is room for reason over faith in this matter.
I don't say listen to them without questioning. I encourage people to question their faith and challenge their priests. That's how I got as deep anchored in my faith. Not because someone told me but because I questioned and listen to the answer given to me. And I am still questioning my elders. Last time it was about miracles and their scientific process.
So yes, use your reason and don't let the media fool you. Reason based on your own experience. The media (beside Internet) is also like your parents, they can be wrong. (and, in my experience, usually are)
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #221 on: July 18, 2014, 10:11:38 AM »

I hope we can now come back to the subject at hand. Our now fallible brain that wasn't when God created us. Or close the thread.

Okay. So god gave us free will. But he has also kept us ignorant. He created a world that looks to some like it was created by Vishnu and to others like it was created without the help of a god and to others that earth sits on top of a bunch of turtles (I'm not making that up). Freedom and ignorance cannot coexist.

This faith thingy he is so big on means that misconceptions, misunderstandings, whatever is considered "right" at the moment, and just plain old lies will influence people at least as much as their faith. Toss in power-tripping drug lords, militarized nation states, abusive fathers, Internet scammers and conspiracy theorists, and you end up with a world so full of crap and idiots that hardly anyone has a chance to sit around all day and be all faithy. Plus most of us have to work.

So your all-knowing deity made us full of defects, allowed us to create defective groups, societies and nations, and he hangs around up there continuing to demand that we just have a faith?  Too much of the world is a miserable place andwe are busy destroying its environment, because on the whole, we humans have less common sense than a naked-mole rat. Yet we're supposed to solve all of this by a) believing in your super dude and b) picking the right way to believe in him. Got it.

And then most religious people insist that he loves us. He gave his son, etc. His only beloved son. Because apparently he got a vasectomy or something. But he has demonstrated only incompetence, not love, from day one. Literally. And yet you're impressed.

What you don't see is that every religion, including yours, is a human invention. And that's why they don't actually work. Other than getting masses of people to agree upon a specific delusion, that is. Our fallible brains are further fallified (I made up a new word! Tweet about it!) by learning about and believing falsehoods. Not only the religious ones, of course, but they don't help a bit.

The flaw of of the religious is their inability to realize that old, old stories are only of historical and anthropological and perhaps psychological interest.  Otherwise, they are irrelevant and misleading. People who proclaim "Jesus really died for me!" are more likely to be on an ego trip than a religious journey (not that it really matters which) and hence they are doing the same thing Internet addicts do, wasting valuable time looking at religion's version of cat videos.

We have fallible brains. But they didn't come from your god or any other. They came from an evolutionary process that wasn't all that worried about the specifics as long as procreation was still possible. Of course the nearer we get to total global annihilation via war or pollution, the less evolution will work, but hey, the viruses and naked mole rats will survive, while your last words will probably be "Father, why have you forsaken me?"

You'll never get an answer unless you make one up. Like you and millions of others are doing right now.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #222 on: July 18, 2014, 01:47:12 PM »
How comfortable are you considering that the bible and god are not at all related.  That whatever is described about the god of the bible is not descriptive of your god.  That whatever is described in response to actions from the god of the bible are not responses to actions from your god.  That includes things like "sending his one and only son, Jesus Christ, to die for your salvation".  How comfortable are you with that?  How about your diocese?
I am quite comfortable. The God I believe in is not the one described by the old testament. He is the one underlined by Jesus in the New testament. The one who made the highest sacrifice of all, giving his life for humanity.
It doesn't sound like you'd be comfortable with the idea that the bible and god are unrelated.  It doesn't sound like you'd be comfortable with the idea that god did not send his one and only son to die for you salvation.  But whatever.

What exactly is the relationship between the old testament and the new testament?

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I agree with you. It is not because God in the Old testament is presented as real that he really exist. Nor it is because he is presented as real in the New testament. You really ought to understand that for most of us, Catholics, the Bible is a "tool" given us by God to be able to reach him/understand/know him better. It is not proof of his existence/reality.
Do you mean to tell me that god provided humanity with a piece of shit tool like the old testament?  You mean to tell me that one of the tools that he wanted to provide humanity for helping to understand god better is a book that describes a god character that isn't god?

Is god a f*cking moron?

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Where in real life do you find this kind of summary page?
Textbooks.  Have you ever been to a school?  Taken a class?

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I agree that would have been possible to add such a summary, who knows? maybe there was and "someone" ripped it of.
God would have been OK with someone taking pages out of this tool that he wanted to give to humanity to help better understand him?

And who knows?  Maybe there was "someone" who "made up" the new testament?

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I believe that we don't need such pages since God sent prophets and then Jesus on earth to "redirect" us whenever we strayed too far from the goal.
You sorta do need those pages, unless you've got other source for this whole 'god sent his one and only son to die for your salvation' thing.

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Today we have people available 24/7 to answer our doubts about this or that message from the bible. Available to explain to us what was the lesson there and how we can apply it to our everyday lives. There are more than one so we can make sure that the interpretation is not only one person opinion.
Sure would be nice if god were available 24/7 to answer our doubts about this or that message from the bible.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #223 on: July 18, 2014, 02:07:01 PM »
^^^^Also, business documents, government reports and scientific articles all have summaries.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #224 on: July 18, 2014, 03:00:03 PM »
The one who made the highest sacrifice of all, giving his life for humanity.

Interesting.  I think a greater sacrifice is when one gives up his life for another.  If I knew it would end all war and disease I think I might give up my life.  The guy who gives up his life 1 for 1 for a stranger is possibly more dedicated.

the mountain climber dangling from a rope after a fall cuts himself away to save his friend.

The guy who steps in front of a bullet to save a kid.

To sacrifice myself for 1 human seems like a more nobel act.  At least on the epidemic nobility to sacrifice meter.


Especially when you put knowledge into the equation.  Jesus being god knew it was coming, knew ***KNEW*** he would not really die, knew he would go to heaven.  Any atheist who risks his life to save another puts far more on the line.

lukvance,

what are your thoughts on this.  Jesus does not appear to have made the highest sacrifice.  It kinda is a relatively normal sacrifice.  Made by hundreds of people each year for much less grandiose causes.  With far less assurance that their sacrifice will result in any benefit. 

Jesus's sacrifice is not even equivalent to a person stepping in front of a bullet to save someone.

The real life person does not know if his actions will result in saving the life of said person and does not know for sure where he will go if he dies.

Jesus steps in front of the gun knowing the gun is a stun gun and that his actions will result in saving of millions.  Yeah it is going to hurt but he knows he will live on forever and get a cushy office to boot.

PS Jesus loaded the gun, and set the whole thing up sometime before he created the universe and Adam.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #225 on: July 19, 2014, 11:58:18 AM »

I hope we can now come back to the subject at hand. Our now fallible brain that wasn't when God created us.

Love to.  Do you intend to start giving answers that aren't ambiguous?

I don't say that God has only one emotion. This is something you concluded by yourself.

Yeah.  All by myself.

Quote from: Lukvance
. God knows only one emotion, Love. (and it is more than the love that you know)

No idea where I got the idea from that god has just one emotion, when you are positive he has none.  But fine - that's the way you want to play it, your god has no emotions....including love.

So fine - you don't like my question.
...if god created us with infallible brains, is he now content or discontent that that is no longer the situation?

Then I will rephrase.
If god created us with infallible brains  is our current state of fallible brains one planned by god, or not? 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #226 on: July 19, 2014, 11:59:38 AM »
Beg pardon?  I should listen to what other people want to add to the Bible, how other people want to interpret the Bible?   Can you explain how that isn't THEM just "expressing their thoughts/feelings".
Yes. Yes and I can't. Even if it was them expressing their thoughts/feelings you should listen to them. Like your parents before you, they might be wrong but usually are not.

Right.  So (reference the bold above) you cannot give me any reason why I should listen to what YOU say about the Bible or what the CCC say about the Bible, in preference over what Skeptic, or a Jew or a Muslim or an atheist, say about the Bible?
Oh! I can't explain how that isn't our fathers that are just "expressing their thoughts/feelings". But I can give you reasons why you should listen to Catholicism instead of other religions. But isn't this another discussion/subject?

Oh yes, it would be.  Fortunately not one I need to consider since it would only be you expressing YOUR thoughts and feelings.  Or do you have some actual evidence?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #227 on: July 19, 2014, 03:21:11 PM »
We have fallible brains. But they didn't come from your god or any other. They came from an evolutionary process that wasn't all that worried about the specifics as long as procreation was still possible.
Exactly. You have the answer. We have fallible brains. But weren't created with one. Sin and evolution made them fallible.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #228 on: July 19, 2014, 03:45:59 PM »
Where in real life do you find this kind of summary page?
Textbooks.  Have you ever been to a school?  Taken a class?
Yes. Never read a textbook with that as a summary page. "Don't fret too much about the whole 'do I exist and what can you do for me' schtick.  I know other religious-ish peeps around you probably have these 'rules and regulations' and such about doing this or that to get salvation/avoid damnation/please me.  Instead, focus on the moral lessons and how they may apply to your life.  Yes, some stories have some liberties to make the reading experience more enjoyable and accessible, but fictional elements that are impertinent to the moral of the story will be circled, and, depending on time constraints, may have some additional notes to put those elements into some kind of historical context for the benefit of the many, many future generations of people that I care about to come." Or something similar. I mean you have some kind of intellect no? You absolutely need that kind of summary?

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God would have been OK with someone taking pages out of this tool that he wanted to give to humanity to help better understand him?
Yes. That unfortunately is part of your freedom.

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What exactly is the relationship between the old testament and the new testament?
They are both "tools" given us by God to be able to reach him/understand/know him better. They complete each other. In my opinion, new testament makes things simpler.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #229 on: July 19, 2014, 03:51:56 PM »
If god created us with infallible brains  is our current state of fallible brains one planned by god, or not?
I don't know the plan of God. Nobody knows his plan. But I GUESS it wasn't his plan. He created us with an infallible brain and we rejected him (sin)
You guys have to understand something. The infallible brain that I talk about in this case are the infallible in the sense of right and wrong given by you.
For me, with the sense of right and wrong I give to infallible. We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #230 on: July 19, 2014, 03:55:36 PM »
I don't know the plan of God. Nobody knows his plan. But I GUESS it wasn't his plan. He created us with an infallible brain and we rejected him (sin)
You guys have to understand something. The infallible brain that I talk about in this case are the infallible in the sense of right and wrong given by you.
For me, with the sense of right and wrong I give to infallible. We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)

So infallible doesn't mean infallible. Gotcha. And your god's plan was to create us with a fatal flaw that left us unable to tell right from wrong, but still demand that we chose right. Makes as much sense as anything else you've said on this forum.
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #231 on: July 19, 2014, 03:58:03 PM »
If god created us with infallible brains  is our current state of fallible brains one planned by god, or not?
I don't know the plan of God. Nobody knows his plan. But I GUESS it wasn't his plan. He created us with an infallible brain and we rejected him (sin)
You guys have to understand something. The infallible brain that I talk about in this case are the infallible in the sense of right and wrong given by you.
For me, with the sense of right and wrong I give to infallible. We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)
for a guy who does not know God's plan you sure spend a Fuck-ton of time telling us what he thinks
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