Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?

[Lukvance]

Nicely done.  When you have lost the argument,net and can't think of any more apologetics, just change the question and hope we won't notice.

What are you talking about? What argument did I lost? Against who? What counter argument made me lose it?

In any case, your new question is irrelevant.  If Adam has an infallible brain, then his choice by definition was correct, and we now have the fallible brains god intended.  So no difference between that, and god just creating originally with fallible brains.  Bad luck - another diversion fails at the first hurdle.

What do you know about what God intended or not? Did you ask your priest?
That's another lie that atheist want people to believe. They want people to think that God purposely do bad things, that he "wants" us to fail.
That is wrong.

[12 Monkeys]

then why the snake in the garden,not just ANY snake the talking snake,oh never mind you believe(as I do) the OT is just a bunch of made up hokum.

[Anfauglir]

In any case, your new question is irrelevant.  If Adam has an infallible brain, then his choice by definition was correct, and we now have the fallible brains god intended.  So no difference between that, and god just creating originally with fallible brains.  Bad luck - another diversion fails at the first hurdle.

What do you know about what God intended or not? Did you ask your priest?
That's another lie that atheist want people to believe. They want people to think that God purposely do bad things, that he "wants" us to fail.
That is wrong.

Let me take you through it slowly then.

Option One: god created Adam with a fallible brain.  Conclusion: god wanted man to have fallible brains.
Option Two: god created Adam with an infallible brain.  Therefore, whatever decisions Adam took were perfectly correct, and exactly what god wanted him to do.  If those 100% correct decisions then led to him changing to a fallible brain, then god must have intended that to happen all along.

Conclusion: god wanted us to have a fallible brain, whether we were originally created that way or not.

If you disagree, you need to show how an infallible brain, created by god, could lead to a fallible brain, without god intending that to be the case.

[Anfauglir]

Nicely done.  When you have lost the argument,net and can't think of any more apologetics, just change the question and hope we won't notice.

What are you talking about? What argument did I lost? Against who? What counter argument made me lose it?

Everything you have said about your god indicates that good actions are inevitable for it - you know, exactly that same lack of free will that you claim is SO important in man.  When there is only one action possible for a thing, then it is a preprogrammed automaton.

Here's a tip for your answer - you will need to explain clearly how it is that your god is able to take actions other than the best action, while retaining its infallibility and perfection.  Because those are the apparently mutually exclusive traits you wish to assign to your god.

Well, here's one question that you haven't answered.  That an infallible brain and free will are mutually exclusive.  And with reference to my post above, you will also need to show how Adam's infallible brain - that you say he was created with - led him to chose against god.  How can an infallible brain do something like that, unless choosing against god is the correct decision?

[Lukvance]

Well, here's one question that you haven't answered.  That an infallible brain and free will are mutually exclusive.

The quote you just gave me was your answer to :

I think you don't have any valuable reason to worship anything. If you do, please enlighten me, what is this reason? And how this reason does not apply to God?

I don't see the link between my question and the free will/infallible brain relation.
If you have a question or wish to tell the world that you "know" that God do not have free will, you can.
If you want my opinion, you already have it.
You don't know what you are talking about because you don't have anything to compare it to.

And with reference to my post above, you will also need to show how Adam's infallible brain - that you say he was created with - led him to chose against god.  How can an infallible brain do something like that, unless choosing against god is the correct decision?

Aren't you changing the signification of right and wrong with this question?
What would happen if you ask a infallible brain to choose between an half full glass and an half empty glass? What would be his answer to the question "is that Glass half full or half empty?"

[Anfauglir]

.....you will also need to show how Adam's infallible brain - that you say he was created with - led him to chose against god.  How can an infallible brain do something like that, unless choosing against god is the correct decision?

Aren't you changing the signification of right and wrong with this question?
What would happen if you ask a infallible brain to choose between an half full glass and an half empty glass? What would be his answer to the question "is that Glass half full or half empty?"

Doesn't really matter, because they are descriptive terms for the exact same thing.  Both answers would be correct.

Are you saying that "choosing god" and "not choosing god" are the same thing?  Because that is what I assume you mean by introducing the glass analogy.  If an infallible brain can be correct by not choosing god, then so can a fallible brain.

If you are saying there IS a difference between choosing and not choosing god, then perhaps you will answer my question about Adams infallible brain and his choice against god.

[12 Monkeys]

First luk would have to address the fact he thinks the OT is just a bunch of stories,then going back and addressing them as fact,when it suits him

[Anfauglir]

Just bumping so Lukvance doesn't miss his chance to correct my assumption that he believes "choose god" and "do not choose god" are just two ways of describing the same thing.

[Lukvance]

As much as there are consequences to choose the glass being half empty (pessimism) or half full (optimism) there are consequences to chose God (eternal life) or refuse God (sickness and death).
I believe that saying the glass is half empty is a wrong answer and that saying "No" to God is more wrong (the consequences are bigger)
In any case you cannot prove that I don't have an infallible brain since I can answer "I don't know" to your questions.

Can an infallible brain give a wrong answer or not answer a complicated mathematical equation?

[epidemic]

Let's stop there for a moment.   Lets say that some random atheist dies and goes before ST Peter, the atheist still does not believe because this all appears to be a dream.  Is that just cause to toss him into a lake of fire for all eternity? 

No tossing in lake of fire for all eternity. I think being without God is worse than that.
Don't Go all mad and cite the bible. I know it can be graphic on that subject.
Have you ever be deeply in love?
It is said that orgasms are samples of heaven and that heartbreaks are samples of hell.
I believe that God is THE source for Love (better than my girlfriend) and that cutting off that source is hell.

Lets assume that the atheist simply does not like god or what he stands for when he finally comes before Saint Peter, is that good enough reason to torture him?

No. Who is torturing who?

Wouldn't it be more in keeping with gods benevolent nature to create a place for non believers and even god haters to exist, one that is not designed to torture them? A whole universe, ecosystem for people to live out their eternity that does not include having the flesh torn from their bodies?

Yes, I believe this is what happen.

I would also think if merely not being in the presense of god (ignoring the fact that he is everywhere) was torturous, wouldn't a benevolent god give you a panic button that you can push to join him in heaven.

Purgatory is that...God giving you the button. Hell is you saying I don't even need the button I'm sure of my choice. Anyway eternity doesn't mean a long time.

I keep coming back to the analogy of god as a parent and us being children.  No conventional analysis of a loving parent would indicate that they would be right in killing/torturing/shunning them for simply failing to believe in you or something you said.
Dad -"Junior I once climbed that tree in the back yard" 
Junior -"Dad I simply do not believe your fat ass could have done that"
Dad - "Get out of my house you little ingrate"
Junior - "What the hell was that all about"

Here is how I see it going :
Dad -"Junior I once climbed that tree in the back yard" 
Junior -"Dad I simply do not believe your fat ass could have done that."
Dad - "Junior you have a choice, believe me or go to your room. I won't discuss with someone who doubt my every word"
"Atheist" Junior - "...let's review the facts"
"Theist" Junior - "Ok Dad I believe you, why did you climb the tree?"

Where are you finding this information.  Because the bible both new and old testament does not say you will be shunned by god or even just left to your own devices in some alternate universe created by a loving god. 

No it says you will be tossed into a lake of fire and be tortured.   It does not say you will toss yourself in it says god does it.

You seem to be creating your own set of guidelines and inventing things the bible does not say.

[Lukvance]

Where are you finding this information.  Because the bible both new and old testament does not say you will be shunned by god or even just left to your own devices in some alternate universe created by a loving god. 

No it says you will be tossed into a lake of fire and be tortured.   It does not say you will toss yourself in it says god does it.

You seem to be creating your own set of guidelines and inventing things the bible does not say.

Not really. The lake of fire is an image used so people can understand how they will suffer if they don't follow God.
I know what I know because I learned it from my Religion. Religion is like school but on matters of spiritual nature.

[epidemic]

.....you will also need to show how Adam's infallible brain - that you say he was created with - led him to chose against god.  How can an infallible brain do something like that, unless choosing against god is the correct decision?

Aren't you changing the signification of right and wrong with this question?
What would happen if you ask a infallible brain to choose between an half full glass and an half empty glass? What would be his answer to the question "is that Glass half full or half empty?"

Doesn't really matter, because they are descriptive terms for the exact same thing.  Both answers would be correct.

Are you saying that "choosing god" and "not choosing god" are the same thing?  Because that is what I assume you mean by introducing the glass analogy.  If an infallible brain can be correct by not choosing god, then so can a fallible brain.

If you are saying there IS a difference between choosing and not choosing god, then perhaps you will answer my question about Adams infallible brain and his choice against god.

The glass is half full, half empty argument is really a point with no relevance.  If one were to be filling a glass it would be half full and if one were drinking it the appropriate answer half empty would be completely approprate as would the inverse.  If the glass were just sitting on the counter when you came upon it, I would think your answer would go either way.  It is six of one half a dozen of another. 

This whole glass is half empty full is completely useless destinction.

[epidemic]

Where are you finding this information.  Because the bible both new and old testament does not say you will be shunned by god or even just left to your own devices in some alternate universe created by a loving god. 

No it says you will be tossed into a lake of fire and be tortured.   It does not say you will toss yourself in it says god does it.

You seem to be creating your own set of guidelines and inventing things the bible does not say.

Not really. The lake of fire is an image used so people can understand how they will suffer if they don't follow God.
I know what I know because I learned it from my Religion. Religion is like school but on matters of spiritual nature.

Ok what is the source earthly of your religion?  What is the instructors manual for your teachers?

The bible does not say you will be separated from god and that separation will be as painful as a lake of fire.  It directly says you will be tossed into a lake of fire and it also says that god already tossed some angels there.  There is no waffling on it god is torturing angels right now as we speak and has been doing so for thousands of years.


Where is the bible story of the angel who asked for forgiveness and was released from hell?  There is no example or claim or implied passage in the bible that this has happened or will happen to any angel let alone atheist who mistakenly fails to believe in god.

[Lukvance]

Ok what is the source earthly of your religion?

Earthly? It is spiritual.

What is the instructors manual for your teachers?

Basically The CCC (CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH) and the Bible (but mostly the CCC)

Where is the bible story of the angel who asked for forgiveness and was released from hell?  There is no example or claim or implied passage in the bible that this has happened or will happen to any angel let alone atheist who mistakenly fails to believe in god.

To my knowledge there are no such story. Angels[1] are nothing like Humans. I would suggest not comparing the two.

1.	http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p5.htm#328

[SevenPatch]

In any case you cannot prove that I don't have an infallible brain since I can answer "I don't know" to your questions.

Please read the following:

Well, let us consider what the purpose of a quiz is.  A quiz is meant to test the knowledge of a person or their ability to apply the knowledge that they have.  So, if I score 9 out of 10 on a quiz, then that was the best I could do based on my knowledge and ability.  Of course writing “I don’t know” or nothing at all is not the correct answer, but it also isn’t a mistake, wrong or an error either.

As I’ve already said, you are ignoring the different conceptual meanings of the word “wrong”.  A wrong answer on a quiz is not the same as a fallible brain being wrong.  A wrong answer on a quiz is a lack of omniscience.  A wrong answer on a quiz proves that a person is not omniscient.  Guessing on a quiz proves a person’s brain is fallible.  A brain which is infallible is an absolute position and requires far more than a quiz to prove that it is actually infallible.

An extensive memory test would be able to distinguish an infallible brain from a fallible brain.  I guess we never identified what kind of test we were referring to.  I assumed we were discussing a test based on knowledge.   An infallible brain would have a perfect memory and would get every question right regarding a memory test.  No answer on a memory test would be proof that the brain is fallible.  A brain does not need to know everything in order to have a perfect memory of what limited knowledge it does have.

You still haven’t explained to me how not knowing something is a mistake.

Lukvance,

It’s okay to admit you were wrong.  It happens to everyone.  No one has all the answers, so there is no need for you to pretend that you do.

[Lukvance]

Can an infallible brain give a wrong answer or not answer a complex mathematical equation?

[SevenPatch]

Can an infallible brain give a wrong answer or not answer a complex mathematical equation?

If the infallible brain knows the answer, then it will give the correct answer.

If the infallible brain does not know the answer, then it will not give any answer.

An infallible brain will not guess unless it is required to guess.  If the infallible brain is required to guess, then it will probably be wrong.

[Lukvance]

I understand. Then the answer is the one I gave you already on reply #112:

In that case God made us with an infallible brain. I suppose it is evolution that "transformed" it as it is today. We don't have to remember every little details of every day. I believe that if we did, we wouldn't have enough matter to register it all.

[SevenPatch]

I understand. Then the answer is the one I gave you already on reply #112:

In that case God made us with an infallible brain. I suppose it is evolution that "transformed" it as it is today. We don't have to remember every little details of every day. I believe that if we did, we wouldn't have enough matter to register it all.

Thanks for linking to the post.  That is about the nicest thing I can say.

What you don't understand is what the implications of having an infallible or fallible brain are.

You also don't understand that the capability is already there in our brains to remember all of the little details of every day.  It doesn't need to "have enough matter to register it all".  It is already capable of registering it all.  The way in which the brain makes neuronal connections in order to access memories though is flawed which leads to mistakes.

Your conclusions that "God" made us with an infallible brain and that our brains are now fallible due to evolution is pure speculation.  You have no supporting evidence.

I don't need a reason for why our brains are fallible now, they just are.  How our brains work now is the result of evolution, and the flaws are good example of the limitations of a natural process as opposed to a creater/designer "God", who if it had any interest in giving us free will would have given us the ability to make sound decisions based accurately on the information we're given.  With a fallible brain, we can unknowingly be tricked into following the wrong religion and thus end up in "Hell". 

As Anfauglir so clearly pointed out:

Option One: god created Adam with a fallible brain.  Conclusion: god wanted man to have fallible brains.
Option Two: god created Adam with an infallible brain.  Therefore, whatever decisions Adam took were perfectly correct, and exactly what god wanted him to do.  If those 100% correct decisions then led to him changing to a fallible brain, then god must have intended that to happen all along.

Conclusion: god wanted us to have a fallible brain, whether we were originally created that way or not.

If you disagree, you need to show how an infallible brain, created by god, could lead to a fallible brain, without god intending that to be the case.

This is a serious problem for the existence of “God”.

If you believe that “God” exists, then you have to accept that “God” wants humans to be tricked into going to “Hell”.  “God’s” existence doesn’t fit with reality.  Well, at least the Judeo-Christian “God” anyway (and subsequently the Islamic “God” probably).

[12 Monkeys]

Can an infallible brain give a wrong answer or not answer a complex mathematical equation?

what is your source to prove God has an infallible brain.... Just reading simple passages it seems like God has no idea what's going on,makes decisions that turn out to be incorrect,does not see the fall coming,has fears,and at best can't even think in a rational matter. Prove it or leave and never come back

[Lukvance]

How choosing to eat the forbidden fruit "proves" that we have an infallible brain?
I don't see how either choice can be considered "wrong" based on SevenPatch's definition of "wrong" (we don't have the same).

[12 Monkeys]

How choosing to eat the forbidden fruit "proves" that we have an infallible brain?
I don't see how either choice can be considered "wrong" based on SevenPatch's definition of "wrong" (we don't have the same).

to your point,you have stated over and over again the OT is just a collection of stories,then you backpedal and fall back on stories as fact

[Anfauglir]

Option One: god created Adam with a fallible brain.  Conclusion: god wanted man to have fallible brains.
Option Two: god created Adam with an infallible brain.  Therefore, whatever decisions Adam took were perfectly correct, and exactly what god wanted him to do.  If those 100% correct decisions then led to him changing to a fallible brain, then god must have intended that to happen all along.

Conclusion: god wanted us to have a fallible brain, whether we were originally created that way or not.

If you disagree, you need to show how an infallible brain, created by god, could lead to a fallible brain, without god intending that to be the case.

Bump.

[Anfauglir]

As much as there are consequences to choose the glass being half empty (pessimism) or half full (optimism) there are consequences to chose God (eternal life) or refuse God (sickness and death).
I believe that saying the glass is half empty is a wrong answer and that saying "No" to God is more wrong (the consequences are bigger)

So what you are saying is that the question of half-full/half-empty are different ways of describing the world, and the relevance is in the attitude of mind?  So the point you are making is that it is the attitude of mind towards god that is important?

[Lukvance]

So what you are saying is that the question of half-full/half-empty are different ways of describing the world, and the relevance is in the attitude of mind?  So the point you are making is that it is the attitude of mind towards god that is important?

No what I'm saying is :

How choosing to eat the forbidden fruit "proves" that we have an infallible brain?
I don't see how either choice can be considered "wrong" based on SevenPatch's definition of "wrong" (we don't have the same).

The point I'm making is : I think we were created with an infallible brain. And that people exist today with an infallible brain (or close to).

[SevenPatch]

So what you are saying is that the question of half-full/half-empty are different ways of describing the world, and the relevance is in the attitude of mind?  So the point you are making is that it is the attitude of mind towards god that is important?

No what I'm saying is :

How choosing to eat the forbidden fruit "proves" that we have an infallible brain?
I don't see how either choice can be considered "wrong" based on SevenPatch's definition of "wrong" (we don't have the same).

The point I'm making is : I think we were created with an infallible brain. And that people exist today with an infallible brain (or close to).

Well, the human race today certainly does not possess a infallible brain (as far as I know).  I know I don’t, and you Lukvance do not as evidenced by your common use of logical fallacies.  I haven’t seen evidence from anywhere or anyone to indicate that a human possesses an Infallible brain.  If you have some such evidence, please share.  Please don’t come back saying that claiming ignorance is proof of an infallible brain, it is not, it is only potentially proof of ignorance.  Having an infallible brain is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. 

SO, you have chosen Option 2:

Option Two: god created Adam with an infallible brain.  Therefore, whatever decisions Adam took were perfectly correct, and exactly what god wanted him to do.  If those 100% correct decisions then led to him changing to a fallible brain, then god must have intended that to happen all along.

Conclusion: god wanted us to have a fallible brain, whether we were originally created that way or not.

_____________________________________

How choosing to eat the forbidden fruit "proves" that we have an infallible brain?
I don't see how either choice can be considered "wrong" based on SevenPatch's definition of "wrong" (we don't have the same).

If eating the forbidden fruit was a mistake, then Adam would possess a fallible brain.  Not infallible.

If Adam had an infallible brain, as you seem to indicate that is your belief, and Adam ate the forbidden fruit then it was not a mistake and it was what “God” wanted all along which makes “God’s” punishment of Adam and Eve irrational.  If “God” is irrational, then “God” is not infallible.

I haven’t really provided a definition of “wrong”, I’ve only pointed out that there are multiple conceptual meanings for the word “wrong”, which you seem to be conflating.  Such conceptual meanings as the difference between a “wrong” answer of a mathematical question and a morally “wrong” choice.  They are not the same.

[Lukvance]

Can eating the forbidden fruit and not eating the forbidden fruit be both the correct answer? Like saying that the glass is half full or half empty are both the correct answer?
If so, no mistake were made and God is still perfect.

[12 Monkeys]

Can eating the forbidden fruit and not eating the forbidden fruit be both the correct answer? Like saying that the glass is half full or half empty are both the correct answer?
If so, no mistake were made and God is still perfect.

cop out,the fall story half empty= sin,half full= no sin( the glass ) Education would have been the perfect resolution

[eh!]

No fall = no religion


the fall is an imperative to xianity, we MUST be born sinners ir what else is the church gonna do all day.... grow forbidden fruit trees to look at?