Author Topic: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?  (Read 5550 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« on: April 08, 2014, 02:30:15 PM »

I had a discussion with epidemic that went like this :
LukeVance
Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?
Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man who turned on him? (both situations according to the bible made him angry.)  If god knows all, is not bound by time and has absolute power why would he keep doing things that disappoint him.
Finally why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment? (mind you I don't disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I dont believe because I find his story to be ficticious)
Oh yeah, why all the mystery, surely a visible god is much easier to believe in.  Why all the cloak and dagger shit? Appear in the sky blow up some sinners and write a bible in a language that all humans understand at their core, no translation errors or misunderstanding.  Hell writing a bible that all humans understand at a genetic level would certainly go a long way toward to converting me I think.  Why let your word be corrupted by mistranslations, and period sensitive verses that are culturally meaningless today.

You're funny, Welcome to the conversation about the existence of God. For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?
Why would I need to acknowledge gods existence for you to comment.  But if it makes you feel better I will acknowlege his existence for the sake of argument. 
Personally as we learn more about the universe we slowly push back the place where god must have existed.  Once upon a time god was necessary for lightning to strike (then we learned about electrons), rain to come (condensation and evaporation), stars to exist (gravity and burning hydrogen).  Our knowledge of the mechanics of weather, universe do not eliminate the possibility of god, only offers a non supernatural alternative.  Now the place where I still leave reserved for possible proof of god is the instant the big bang began.  The only place I see as a last refuge for proving god is in my ignorance of the creation of everything from nothing.   
For the moment I will take that shread of belief in the possibility of a creator to be my belief in god/any flavor of the christian bible you choose.  So go ahead and answer the questions above.
PS just thought of another great proof.  Any attempt to misrepresent the word of god on paper results in the words catching fire, and uttering falsehoods about god makes you violently ill.
I thought I would create a new thread to answer his questions because I found them out of subject over there.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 05:04:10 PM »
Quote
why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment?
He is not the one punishing you. You are the only one responsible of your choices. There are consequences, you cannot say you did not know.
And if you ask him to forgive you (in confession for example) he will!
He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 03:28:14 AM »
Quote
why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable?
He is not the one punishing you. You are the only one responsible of your choices. There are consequences, you cannot say you did not know.
And if you ask him to forgive you (in confession for example) he will!
He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?

Perhaps you could answer the question he asked, rather than argue the consequences?


He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?

Yes.  Without question - if we're talking this "free will" business.

The confusion you have in asking this question is that you are coming at it from a position of knowledge of the alternative.  But if I had been created a slave, with no free will, I would have been 100% happy with that status.  Why wouldn't I?  No choice, god is great, I live in the garden happy forever.  I wouldn't have had the ability to regret not having free will - the concept simply wouldn't have occurred.

So here's the two situations.

1) God created man with no free will.  Everyone lives happily ever after, together in paradise.

2) God creates man WITH free will.  Some people live forever in paradise, some burn for eternity in hell.  The earthly world is a conflicting and shifting mess of happiness and misery, produced as a result of free will.

In option 1, everyone wins.  In option 2, some people lose.  Can you explain why an all-loving god would choose to create the option where some people lose, as opposed to the options where nobody loses, and nobody would even understand the concept of being able to lose?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 06:03:31 PM »
Quote
why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable?
He is not the one punishing you. You are the only one responsible of your choices. There are consequences, you cannot say you did not know.
And if you ask him to forgive you (in confession for example) he will!
He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?

Perhaps you could answer the question he asked, rather than argue the consequences?
He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?
Yes.  Without question - if we're talking this "free will" business.

The confusion you have in asking this question is that you are coming at it from a position of knowledge of the alternative.  But if I had been created a slave, with no free will, I would have been 100% happy with that status.  Why wouldn't I?  No choice, god is great, I live in the garden happy forever.  I wouldn't have had the ability to regret not having free will - the concept simply wouldn't have occurred.

So here's the two situations.

1) God created man with no free will.  Everyone lives happily ever after, together in paradise.
2) God creates man WITH free will.  Some people live forever in paradise, some burn for eternity in hell.  The earthly world is a conflicting and shifting mess of happiness and misery, produced as a result of free will.

In option 1, everyone wins.  In option 2, some people lose.  Can you explain why an all-loving god would choose to create the option where some people lose, as opposed to the options where nobody loses, and nobody would even understand the concept of being able to lose?
"He is not the one punishing you" is my answer to his question.
"He made you free" is my answer to the first question. I should have add that it's this freedom that makes your brain fallible.


You are the first one to tell me that he prefers being a slave. Interesting! And I tend to agree with you.
To answer your question I will take an example.
Let's say that you have a dog. You have the choice of opening the door and letting him choose to stay or leave. Or closing the door and forcing him to stay.
In witch situation will you be the most happy? When the dog choose you freely or when the dog stays because he doesn't have the choice.
You know that the outdoor without you is very dangerous and that he should wait for you before going out (so you can protect him) You know also that the outdoor will make him way more happy than if he stays inside. (not that he is not happy inside but...)
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 01:47:19 AM »
Can you explain why an all-loving god would choose to create the option where some people lose, as opposed to the options where nobody loses, and nobody would even understand the concept of being able to lose?

To answer your question I will take an example.
Let's say that you have a dog. You have the choice of opening the door and letting him choose to stay or leave. Or closing the door and forcing him to stay.
In witch situation will you be the most happy? When the dog choose you freely or when the dog stays because he doesn't have the choice.

A telling response already - the first thing you set down is what makes GOD happy, not what makes his CREATION happy.

That's my point: the ONLY person who benefits from the ability to choose is god - this needy, desperate god who would rather some people suffer, just so that some can choose to praise him.

1) You know that the outdoor without you is very dangerous and that he should wait for you before going out (so you can protect him)
2) You know also that the outdoor will make him way more happy than if he stays inside. (not that he is not happy inside but...)

I don't need to consider either of these points, because they are irrelevant to the point I was making.

1) is irrelevant because......who made the outside dangerous?  God did.

2) is also irrelevant.  Because a dog that has no concept of outside at all, and who has been trained and created to live and love being inside, will not suffer this quandry at all.  He will stand at the door looking puzzled, then run back inside, absolutely happy to be inside.

Would you like to try answering the question again, but actually accepting what the real implications of "never having free will" are?  Because all your answers are from the standpoint of someone who has HAD free will, and then lost it, which is of course NOT what the original situation would have been.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2014, 03:29:42 AM »
Quote
all your answers are from the standpoint of someone who has HAD free will, and then lost it
Would you want to raise your kids without teaching them about free will? (to never ask them "what do you want?")
Your kid could be seen as your creation.
Do you understand now why God gave us the ability to choose. Because he knew it would make us happier. Sure it is dangerous but the fruits are worth it.

Quote
the ONLY person who benefits from the ability to choose is god
The dog with the door closed maybe had free will but wasn't free. Even if he wanted to go outside he could not.
It's like the slave who could not leave his master. He was not free (even if he had free will)
The dog benefits from the ability to choose...if the door is open. When the door is closed, he suffer from that ability.
Quote
who made the outside dangerous?  God did.

I wouldn't be so sure. I believe that other humans made the outside dangerous. With all this hunger and war and all type of violence. The way God created it wasn't dangerous.
Quote
Because a dog that has no concept of outside at all, and who has been trained and created to live and love being inside, will not suffer this quandry at all.
You are right, the dog might not suffer, but YOU might.
Instead of the dog let's take a kid. Would it be a good thing to raise a kid in your basement/bunker without ever talking to him about the outside? He wouldn't know about it, and wouldn't be hurt about not going outside.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2014, 02:53:32 PM »
He is not the one punishing you.
No, but he will do.
Quote
You are the only one responsible of your choices.
Don't listen to Lukvance - he wants to make you feel guilty.

It is God's fault for not making his presence absolutely clear![/quote]
There you are! I told you! You will burn in Hell forever and ever and never ever will you be out of screaming pain.

But all you have to do is "Like" Baby Jesus on Facebook.

Quote
There are consequences, you cannot say you did not know.
And if you ask him to forgive you (in confession for example) he will!
Even if, like Hitler or Stalin, you murdered millions, you can go to heaven. But if you die shortly after birth, because you never accepted Jesus, you will burn in Hell with the rest of them.
Quote
He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?
Let's get this right... You can be free and obey Him without question or you can be a slave and obey him without question.

If you do neither. If you don't believe, your skin is burned from you every day for eternity whilst devils anally rape you and worms eat out your eyes.

That is how much Jesus loves you. He will do all of this to help you believe in Him..

Well, Lukvance... Tell me, why should I join your death-cult?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 02:36:34 AM »
Quote
all your answers are from the standpoint of someone who has HAD free will, and then lost it
Would you want to raise your kids without teaching them about free will? (to never ask them "what do you want?")

Oh dear - you still don't get it, do you?  Its not about TELLING people they have free will, its about them actually having it in the first place.

Who does free will benefit?

Do you understand now why God gave us the ability to choose. Because he knew it would make us happier.

Can you explain how someone with no free will, and thus no understanding of the concept of free will, living forever in paradise with god, would be UNhappy?

Quote
the ONLY person who benefits from the ability to choose is god
The dog with the door closed maybe had free will but wasn't free.......

Oops!  Another sidestep of my point, that the primary beneficiary of "free will" is the needy, insecure god.  Try to stop conflating "freedom of will" with "freedom to exercise desires" as well.

Quote
who made the outside dangerous?  God did.

I wouldn't be so sure. I believe that other humans made the outside dangerous.

What other humans? 


Quote
Because a dog that has no concept of outside at all, and who has been trained and created to live and love being inside, will not suffer this quandry at all.

You are right, the dog might not suffer, but YOU might.

So you agree that free will, if not created, would cause GOD to suffer?  Like I've been saying all along - free will benefits your god far more than anyone else.

Instead of the dog let's take a kid.
Sure.  But we will of course be talking about a kid with NO free will, right?

Would it be a good thing to raise a kid in your basement/bunker without ever talking to him about the outside? He wouldn't know about it, and wouldn't be hurt about not going outside.
If the child had no free will, I could tell him everything about the outside.  He wouldn't go there, because he would have no free will to make that choice.  He would instead stay inside, 100% happy because that was how I made him.

You really DON'T seem to get it.  Like I said before, all your arguments are based in whole or in part on people who actually have free will that is in some way being constrained.  My point is that if your god had created everyone with NO free will, then:
1) All people would be happy and content.
2) All people would be with god forever in paradise.
3) God would be denied the pleasure of people choosing to love him.

Free will is a win for god, a lose for everyone else.  But maybe I'm missing something, so I'll ask again:

Can you explain how someone with no free will, and thus no understanding of the concept of free will, living forever in paradise with god, would be UNhappy?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 03:55:02 PM »
He is not the one punishing you.
No, but he will do.
Quote
You are the only one responsible of your choices.
Don't listen to Lukvance - he wants to make you feel guilty.

It is God's fault for not making his presence absolutely clear!
There you are! I told you! You will burn in Hell forever and ever and never ever will you be out of screaming pain.

But all you have to do is "Like" Baby Jesus on Facebook.

Quote
There are consequences, you cannot say you did not know.
And if you ask him to forgive you (in confession for example) he will!
Even if, like Hitler or Stalin, you murdered millions, you can go to heaven. But if you die shortly after birth, because you never accepted Jesus, you will burn in Hell with the rest of them.
Quote
He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?
Let's get this right... You can be free and obey Him without question or you can be a slave and obey him without question.

If you do neither. If you don't believe, your skin is burned from you every day for eternity whilst devils anally rape you and worms eat out your eyes.

That is how much Jesus loves you. He will do all of this to help you believe in Him..

Well, Lukvance... Tell me, why should I join your death-cult?
You are wrong all along the line. I believe that there are Atheist in heaven. God does not punish and we, Catholics, believe that babies go to heaven. (even if they never heard of Jesus)
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 04:09:57 PM »
You are wrong all along the line. I believe that there are Atheist in heaven. God does not punish and we, Catholics, believe that babies go to heaven. (even if they never heard of Jesus)

Few questions:

1. I am curious why you are here arguing with atheists if you think they can go to heaven? if I believed that, I wouldn't be on this site. it would be a waste of time.

2. If atheists can go to Heaven, how is that fair to a believer that spent a significant amount of time praying to God and preaching to non-believers?

3. What's the point of believing all this stuff if you can still go to Heaven anyway?
It would be like telling someone, "You can take this extremely hard calculus test that is 100 problems long, or you can not take the test and still get an A+."
Which would you choose?


« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 04:11:31 PM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online jdawg70

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 04:23:17 PM »
You are wrong all along the line. I believe that there are Atheist in heaven.
I'm guessing that this is just a grammatical error, but the arbitrary capitalization of the word 'atheist' makes me question that.  So I'll just explicitly ask - do you see the problem with the following statement:

"I believe that there are atheists in heaven."

Quote
God does not punish and we, Catholics, believe that babies go to heaven. (even if they never heard of Jesus)
Last I remember this isn't what the Catholic church teaches, but my information is likely outdated.  Could you provide a source indicating that this is, in fact, what the Catholic church teaches?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2014, 04:42:27 PM »
Quote
all your answers are from the standpoint of someone who has HAD free will, and then lost it
Would you want to raise your kids without teaching them about free will? (to never ask them "what do you want?")

Oh dear - you still don't get it, do you?  Its not about TELLING people they have free will, its about them actually having it in the first place.

Who does free will benefit?
It does benefit the child. I hope that you, as a parent, knows that your child will be happier if you give/teach him free will than if you don't.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Do you understand now why God gave us the ability to choose. Because he knew it would make us happier.

Can you explain how someone with no free will, and thus no understanding of the concept of free will, living forever in paradise with god, would be UNhappy?
When I said happier I did not mean that we would not be happy without the knowledge of free will. What I meant is that we would be happy, but less happy.

Quote from: Anfauglir

Quote
who made the outside dangerous?  God did.

I wouldn't be so sure. I believe that other humans made the outside dangerous.
What other humans?

The ones outside the analogical house you are in with your dog.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Quote
Because a dog that has no concept of outside at all, and who has been trained and created to live and love being inside, will not suffer this quandry at all.

You are right, the dog might not suffer, but YOU might.
So you agree that free will, if not created, would cause GOD to suffer?  Like I've been saying all along - free will benefits your god far more than anyone else.
Yes we agree God might suffer (or not). But no, free will benefits US more than God. It is a loving gesture from God. And I hope that you agree with me, we need love. Receiving love is better than not receiving any.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Sure.  But we will of course be talking about a kid with NO free will, right?

Not exactly, you can raise a kid and teach him the concept of free will or not teach him. If you don't teach him, he won't have it.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Would it be a good thing to raise a kid in your basement/bunker without ever talking to him about the outside? He wouldn't know about it, and wouldn't be hurt about not going outside.
If the child had no free will, I could tell him everything about the outside.  He wouldn't go there, because he would have no free will to make that choice.  He would instead stay inside, 100% happy because that was how I made him.
That is not what I asked :)

Quote from: Anfauglir
My point is that if your god had created everyone with NO free will, then:
1) All people would be happy and content.
2) All people would be with god forever in paradise.
3) God would be denied the pleasure of people choosing to love him.
Yes! I agree with that.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Free will is a win for god, a lose for everyone else.  But maybe I'm missing something, so I'll ask again:
Can you explain how someone with no free will, and thus no understanding of the concept of free will, living forever in paradise with god, would be UNhappy?

This is the sweet spot. I don't think that someone created without free will will never be free or will never understand the concept of free will.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 05:12:02 PM »
"I believe that there are atheists in heaven."
No problem there.

Quote from: jdawg70
Quote from: lukvance
God does not punish and we, Catholics, believe that babies go to heaven. (even if they never heard of Jesus)
Last I remember this isn't what the Catholic church teaches, but my information is likely outdated.  Could you provide a source indicating that this is, in fact, what the Catholic church teaches?
I hope this will help :
"the commission has reported that there is a possibility that these unbaptized babies can go to heaven."
http://voices.yahoo.com/pope-benedict-xvi-changes-catholic-churchs-stance-311194.html
"saying that these children are damned runs contrary to everything that we believe about the purpose of Hell"
http://catholicdefense.blogspot.ca/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
The one I prefer : (I'm that lazy)
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2014, 09:19:57 PM »
"I believe that there are atheists in heaven."
No problem there.
I think you meant to say:
"I believe that there are those who used to be atheists in heaven."

Quote
I hope this will help :
"the commission has reported that there is a possibility that these unbaptized babies can go to heaven."
http://voices.yahoo.com/pope-benedict-xvi-changes-catholic-churchs-stance-311194.html
So then there is definitely a possibility that these unbaptized babies cannot go to heaven?  Maybe you guys should get a little more clarity from god on this one.  It may change the stakes on how important someone considers 'baptism' for example.  Would be a shame if a dead baby missed out on salvation because his/her parents though attending their priest's funeral was more important than having their baby baptized last Sunday.

Quote
"saying that these children are damned runs contrary to everything that we believe about the purpose of Hell"
http://catholicdefense.blogspot.ca/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
As per above, I suggest you guys request some clarity from god.  Of course that's up to all of you.  We're talking about the eternal salvation of all sentient entities born...maybe just a touch more important whether or not chicks decide to scissor each other.  I dunno - maybe my priorities are screwed up.

But come on - you know as well as I do that this bit of information cannot possibly fall under the 'better not to know' category, except, perhaps, in one way - to protect ourselves from the horrifying truth that babies go to hell when they die.  That's pretty awful, right?  That's a serious bummer - I could sorta understand why god wouldn't want to spill the beans about that one.  That's some serious misery right there.

The truth is too ugly and tragic to bear.  So god doesn't come out and say it.  Of course, in order to protect your free will, he will not prevent you from learning that truth.  And now you know.

Quote
The one I prefer : (I'm that lazy)
<snip>
I will watch this later on.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 09:28:36 PM »
There are consequences, you cannot say you did not know.

Extreme Arrogance.

I can say that I didn't know, because although I know Christianity, I have (1) not the correct interpretation of it (2) don't trust it (3) haven't been provided with any proof.

If Christianity is the wrong religion, guess what Lukvance will be saying to the real God?  "I DID NOT KNOW. YOU HID THE TRUE RELIGION FROM ME. WHY GOD?"
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 09:37:38 PM »

"He is not the one punishing you" is my answer to his question.
"He made you free" is my answer to the first question. I should have add that it's this freedom that makes your brain fallible.


No, it's freedom that gives our brains the potential to be correct, or adapt to unforeseen circumstances. A computer program is an example of something that currently has no freedom, and yet the fallibility of it is determined by the mistakes an laziness of the programmer, and his ability to look ahead. A program can be infallible, if it's programmed by an infallible programmer.

Degree of freedom is not an indicator of fallibility.

One unforeseen circumstance is that Christianity was proven to be false in the 1800's; some people are unable to adapt to that, like creationists. They are wrong about everything. Other liberal Christians are also wrong about everything, because they are running a program that is outdated and has crashed. They keep rebooting it.

You reboot your program every post. It's the only way to explain how many unforced errors you make.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2014, 02:29:04 AM »
You are wrong all along the line. I believe that there are Atheist in heaven. God does not punish and we, Catholics, believe that babies go to heaven. (even if they never heard of Jesus)

So this god of yours discriminates against young children, teens and adults by letting all babies go to heaven. Is that all adults are for - producing babies that god can fill heaven with? "Fuck the parents and their grief - I want babies! They are a 100% shoe-in for joining me in heaven, where they can shake their rattles at me and squeeze their god teddies in pure adulation of me!"

Why couldn't we just all die as babies? Why didn't god set the universe up in such a way that I choked to death on Barbie's shoe (I have a sister before you all start) when I was 15 months old, instead of reaching adulthood where I have to buy a heavenly lottery ticket? Why couldn't I have been one of those Ugandan babies born HIV+?
Do you not see how fucking sick this god of yours is - that we are a dead cert for heaven if we have agonising, debilitating, sufferable, fatal diseases as babies?  Perhaps this is why god does fuck all about infant mortality, because the more little ones he has in heaven, the more he can stroke his ego. He sounds like a denialist - he knows deep down that he's an arsehole and he's desperately rooting around for anything to boost his self-esteem so he can repress the knowledge that he's an arsehole.

Of course, on the other hand, this god doesn't exist so we all don't have to give a second thought about being god's bitch.
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2014, 10:16:46 AM »
I will watch this later on.
Not sure why I didn't bother watching this last night.  For some reason I thought the run time was 60 minutes, rather than 6 minutes.  Ooops.

Anyway, the video reflects essentially what the other two articles were suggesting.  Which really boils down to "don't worry about it."  My criticisms regarding that approach is still the same.  I disagree that it should be something hand-waved.  Because just hand-waving it seems to be an excuse to enable someone to simultaneously hold onto the notion that baptism is crucially important and that baptism is not important.
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2014, 10:42:19 AM »
Quote
why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment?
He is not the one punishing you. You are the only one responsible of your choices. There are consequences, you cannot say you did not know.
And if you ask him to forgive you (in confession for example) he will!
He made you free and it's because you are free that you are able to defy him. Would you have preferred to be a slave?

I do not see any free will.  I am presented facts that god exists with evidence that my fallible brain finds unconvincing.  I do not get to choose whether I believe or not.  I am bound but what my brain finds convincing.  I need more evidence than a copy of a copy of a retelling of a oral story written in a translated redacted telling of 4000 and 2000 year old history that someone I don't know anything about saw a miracle in a time that people saw miracles from any number of gods.

Again I don't believe because I am given two choices.  I don't believe because I see no credible evidence and in fact I see more credible evidence to the contrary of the existence of the god taught by the christian bible.

Free will would be giving me all the facts, answering my questions and then letting me choose.

God present your case in person and with my free will (as excercised by the angels) I will either befriend you or not.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 10:45:02 AM by epidemic »

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2014, 12:55:53 PM »
Free will would be giving me all the facts, answering my questions and then letting me choose.
You have them and you chose.
As much as you can't force me to believe that there is a book next to you. I can't force you to believe that the answer you have are the truth and that you should believe them.
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2014, 01:48:17 PM »
I think you meant to say:
"I believe that there are those who used to be atheists in heaven."
Well of course they are not atheists now that they are in heaven in front of God. But they were up until their dying breath.

Quote
So then there is definitely a possibility that these unbaptized babies cannot go to heaven?  Maybe you guys should get a little more clarity from god on this one.  It may change the stakes on how important someone considers 'baptism' for example.  Would be a shame if a dead baby missed out on salvation because his/her parents though attending their priest's funeral was more important than having their baby baptized last Sunday.

That's the thing with belief in what the future holds. You will never be sure until it happens to you.
You're worth more than my time

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2014, 05:32:40 PM »
Free will would b giving me all the facts, answering my questions and then letting me choose.
You have them and you chose.
As much as you can't force me to believe that there is a book next to you. I can't force you to believe that the answer you have are the truth and that you should believe them.

No you cant help.  You have no facts you could provide beyond feelings and the words of bronze age mystics that have stories which sound exactly like ancient mesapatanians  and ancient greeks. 

The guy who could help remains silken for 2000+ years.   

I have ancient texts which I find less than credible and no first hand knowledge ..  my choice is to believe what I feel are fairytales

I can not help that I don't find the bible credible.  It is not a matter of free will.

You may not require any reasonable proof but I do.  Just as I require proof that someone can perform cold fusion.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 06:19:48 PM by epidemic »

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2014, 03:25:11 AM »
You have them and you chose.

I think you mean that in your humble opinion, he has the facts. Otherwise you are claiming to be infallible on the subject, or playing for contest of most arrogant fart award.
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2014, 03:29:30 AM »
Or, I'll put it another way:

If we have all the facts, then why do Christians come here, trying to convince us that we are wrong?

What possible thing could they gain from arguing with fully informed people?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2014, 03:55:09 AM »
I can not help that I don't find the bible credible.  It is not a matter of free will.

Don't worry about it. God actually came and talked to Lukvance, and gave him a real estate and happiness deal. Lukvance could have almost taken a photo of God, but he wasn't fast enough with his camera. Lukvance wouldn't have found the shit in the bible very convincing either, but God gave him a visit, and suddenly his free will took a nose-dive.

We still have our free will, because God has not turned up and intimidated us. God only turns up to the criminally insane types. I suggest you go out and deal some drugs, and do some major damage to society, and then God will visit you, and then you will have no choice but to believe the shit in the Holey Bible.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2014, 03:59:27 AM »
I need some advice from Skeptic and Lukvance. If I want God appear to me and take away my free will, do I have to kill some Christians, like Paul did, or can I just mug some little old ladies at gunpoint?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2014, 04:02:55 AM »
Oh dear - you still don't get it, do you?  Its not about TELLING people they have free will, its about them actually having it in the first place.

Who does free will benefit?
It does benefit the child. I hope that you, as a parent, knows that your child will be happier if you give/teach him free will than if you don't.

I'm not sure exactly how I can "give" someone free will?  I can certainly teach someone they have it (whether they do or not), or that they don't (whether they do or not), but that's not the question I asked - nor have ever been asking.

When I said happier I did not mean that we would not be happy without the knowledge of free will. What I meant is that we would be happy, but less happy.

HOW?  Explain it to me, clearly, please.  How exactly does "free will" make someone happier than NOT having free will?  Break it down, in detail, because at the moment you appear to just be assuming it is automatically the case.

But no, free will benefits US more than God. It is a loving gesture from God. And I hope that you agree with me, we need love. Receiving love is better than not receiving any.

Maybe so.  But you need to demonstrate that the bestowal of free will is better than NOT bestowing free will, before you can conclude if the bestowal is, or is not, loving.

Quote from: Anfauglir
My point is that if your god had created everyone with NO free will, then:
1) All people would be happy and content.
2) All people would be with god forever in paradise.
3) God would be denied the pleasure of people choosing to love him.
Yes! I agree with that.

Then - as I've been saying over and over - you need to demonstrate why creating people WITH free will leads to a state of greater happiness for man than the above.  So far you have failed to do so - just asserted it as fact. 

Basically....show your working, please!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2014, 04:09:31 AM »
Oh, now I get it. Atheists have ALL the facts, and believers only know enough to make them believe.

Atheists know too much. *slaps forehead*
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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2014, 05:13:33 AM »
If atheists can go to Heaven, how is that fair to a believer that spent a significant amount of time praying to God and preaching to non-believers?

I find this view so depressing. The God you believe in does not care what my effect on the world was, he does not care if I was honest or not, whether I was a lover or not, does not care if I helped or hindered others, if I was altruistic or selfish, if I was generous or grasping. Your God only cares that I affirm him and admit that I am sinful.

If this is your God then he is little more than a narcissistic slave-owner. Your God is not worthy of love, only fear - the hallmark of all great bullies.

Quote
What's the point of believing all this stuff if you can still go to Heaven anyway?

Well quite.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 05:16:07 AM by penfold »
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