Author Topic: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?  (Read 6143 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2014, 06:14:55 AM »
You are wrong all along the line. I believe that there are Atheist in heaven. God does not punish and we, Catholics, believe that babies go to heaven. (even if they never heard of Jesus)

Few questions:

1. I am curious why you are here arguing with atheists if you think they can go to heaven? if I believed that, I wouldn't be on this site. it would be a waste of time.
Hey, lay off him! I've printed this out and when I get to heaven, I'm going to wave it in God's face -> it's a free pass!

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2. If atheists can go to Heaven, how is that fair to a believer that spent a significant amount of time praying to God and preaching to non-believers?
Interesting fact: "Nowhere in the Bible does it mention anything being "fair[1]"

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3. What's the point of believing all this stuff if you can still go to Heaven anyway?
It would be like telling someone, "You can take this extremely hard calculus test that is 100 problems long, or you can not take the test and still get an A+."
Which would you choose?
We all go to heaven[2]: it is God's job to forgive us. Case closed.

I am personally disgusted by your parallel with a maths test: all you would ever do a maths test for is to get a qualification that will help you earn more money. Your worshipping of Mammon and not God is anathema to all right-thinking Christians and shows that you think Christianity is simply to make money.
 1. in the sense of "just; equitable; etc."
 2. I know this because I have said to several dead people "If you are in heaven, don't move." and none of them moved
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 06:24:12 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2014, 08:33:24 AM »
I think you meant to say:
"I believe that there are those who used to be atheists in heaven."
Well of course they are not atheists now that they are in heaven in front of God. But they were up until their dying breath.
Just wanted to be clear about that.

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So then there is definitely a possibility that these unbaptized babies cannot go to heaven?  Maybe you guys should get a little more clarity from god on this one.  It may change the stakes on how important someone considers 'baptism' for example.  Would be a shame if a dead baby missed out on salvation because his/her parents though attending their priest's funeral was more important than having their baby baptized last Sunday.

That's the thing with belief in what the future holds. You will never be sure until it happens to you.
That's certainly very true if you never bother to even try to figure out what the future holds.  Like by trying to ask god for some clarity on the importance of baptism for example.

Or I guess you can just make it up and hope for the best.  But that seems kinda lazy and irresponsible to me.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2014, 04:28:46 PM »
Or, I'll put it another way:

If we have all the facts, then why do Christians come here, trying to convince us that we are wrong?

What possible thing could they gain from arguing with fully informed people?
That's funny. I don't know about the others but I'm not here to prove anyone wrong. I am here to answer questions that has been asked and test my theories and discuss openly on how people other than me could perceive the same reality we live in.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2014, 04:43:23 PM »
Oh dear - you still don't get it, do you?  Its not about TELLING people they have free will, its about them actually having it in the first place.

Who does free will benefit?
It does benefit the child. I hope that you, as a parent, knows that your child will be happier if you give/teach him free will than if you don't.

I'm not sure exactly how I can "give" someone free will?  I can certainly teach someone they have it (whether they do or not), or that they don't (whether they do or not), but that's not the question I asked - nor have ever been asking.

When I said happier I did not mean that we would not be happy without the knowledge of free will. What I meant is that we would be happy, but less happy.

HOW?  Explain it to me, clearly, please.  How exactly does "free will" make someone happier than NOT having free will?  Break it down, in detail, because at the moment you appear to just be assuming it is automatically the case.

But no, free will benefits US more than God. It is a loving gesture from God. And I hope that you agree with me, we need love. Receiving love is better than not receiving any.

Maybe so.  But you need to demonstrate that the bestowal of free will is better than NOT bestowing free will, before you can conclude if the bestowal is, or is not, loving.

Quote from: Anfauglir
My point is that if your god had created everyone with NO free will, then:
1) All people would be happy and content.
2) All people would be with god forever in paradise.
3) God would be denied the pleasure of people choosing to love him.
Yes! I agree with that.

Then - as I've been saying over and over - you need to demonstrate why creating people WITH free will leads to a state of greater happiness for man than the above.  So far you have failed to do so - just asserted it as fact. 

Basically....show your working, please!
I'm not sure how to do it differently.
I made the analogy of a child that you could teach free will or not teach free will and asked you if it was better to teach him or not teach him. You said it wasn't the question.

Maybe another analogy?
I have free will. I know about free will. I will be less happy if someone where to remove it from me. I might not be sad, I might still be happy, but I am sure I would be less happy.
At some point in my life I had my free will "removed" (impaired or someone forced his will into mine would be closer to reality) and I remember the feeling.
Based on that feeling I conclude that having free will is better than NOT having free will.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2014, 05:08:09 PM »
My parents love me. I know that they don't like when I make poor choices in my life. I also know that if I ask them to forgive me, they will. Does it mean that I should continue to make poor choices in my life?
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Offline Jag

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2014, 05:12:37 PM »
Maybe stop using analogies since they are not serving you well at all? It doesn't seem to be the best medium of expression for your particular fallible brain.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2014, 05:34:43 PM »
I made the analogy of a child that you could teach free will or not teach free will and asked you if it was better to teach him or not teach him. You said it wasn't the question.

When my  kids where little they didn’t really have free will. When I said don’t touch that I meant don’t touch that. When I said no cookies before dinner I meant no cookies before dinner. When I said it's wrong to beat up your friends... You know where I am going with this.
I in no way said you have the "free will" to not listen to me. "Go ahead and put your face on the hot stove" or "I am telling you to go to bed but you have the free will to choose not to listen to me." I made that really clear. Because I didn’t want them to grow into one of "those people." We all know kids are cute but then they turn into adults. I enforced my rules for a reason. I took away their free will for a reason.
   
I see the next post is the tired old parental analogy about forgiveness.

Your god doesn’t forgive. All of mankind has been cursed since the dawn of our so called creation in the book of Genesis. Some talking snake convinced some random human named Eve to eat a magical fruit that actually made us more than the rest of the animal kingdom. So we continue to toil the ground for food and child birth still hurts really bad. So you can parade your jesus on his cross all you like. Your god cursed you and everyone else day one. Lol forgive.   

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2014, 12:51:54 PM »
I made the analogy of a child that you could teach free will or not teach free will and asked you if it was better to teach him or not teach him. You said it wasn't the question.

When my  kids where little they didn’t really have free will. When I said don’t touch that I meant don’t touch that. When I said no cookies before dinner I meant no cookies before dinner. When I said it's wrong to beat up your friends... You know where I am going with this.
I in no way said you have the "free will" to not listen to me. "Go ahead and put your face on the hot stove" or "I am telling you to go to bed but you have the free will to choose not to listen to me." I made that really clear. Because I didn’t want them to grow into one of "those people." We all know kids are cute but then they turn into adults. I enforced my rules for a reason. I took away their free will for a reason.
   
I see the next post is the tired old parental analogy about forgiveness.

Your god doesn’t forgive. All of mankind has been cursed since the dawn of our so called creation in the book of Genesis. Some talking snake convinced some random human named Eve to eat a magical fruit that actually made us more than the rest of the animal kingdom. So we continue to toil the ground for food and child birth still hurts really bad. So you can parade your jesus on his cross all you like. Your god cursed you and everyone else day one. Lol forgive.

not to put too fine a point on this.  But your kids had free will.  I am not sure anyone can be deprived of that.  you are saying that there were punishments for failure to obey.  But they had the free will to touch that stove, stay out late...  You would just impose a penalty for failure to follow your rules.

giving someone rules and punishment never remove free will.  If god were to remove free will he would be removing the options from the table.  Free will in my opinion is the physical ability to choose to defy authority regardless of the consequences.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2014, 01:05:17 PM »
You are correct Epidemic but it still fits as a response to Luks post. As the penalty would come immediately thus the lesson could be learned. Rather than a life time of no clear guidance followed by one final eternal damnation as the penalty.
Also to drag my point out more, I know in the 10 commandments using the lords name in vain is a no-no. Yet I have a life time of blasphemy that I have never been scolded for by any deity. Should my kids go running through the streets cursing at people there would be an immediate penalty. They would not be allowed to do that. Forbidden with a penalty if they do. Yes they and every other human will always have the option to rebel but that wasn’t my point. Perhaps my statement of "I took away their free will" was a bit of a stretch.. but I was a strict arse hole :p     

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2014, 03:50:45 AM »
Then - as I've been saying over and over - you need to demonstrate why creating people WITH free will leads to a state of greater happiness for man than the above.  So far you have failed to do so - just asserted it as fact. 

Basically....show your working, please!
I'm not sure how to do it differently.
I made the analogy of a child that you could teach free will or not teach free will and asked you if it was better to teach him or not teach him. You said it wasn't the question.

No, it wasn't.  Because - whatever my opinions on it - in the context of this discussion, we have free will.  What I say or do to my children will not change that fact.

Or are you honestly suggesting that I can erase free will from another person?

Maybe another analogy?
I have free will. I know about free will. I will be less happy if someone where to remove it from me. I might not be sad, I might still be happy, but I am sure I would be less happy.
At some point in my life I had my free will "removed" (impaired or someone forced his will into mine would be closer to reality) and I remember the feeling.
Based on that feeling I conclude that having free will is better than NOT having free will.

At last - getting somewhere.  That's the best reason you've given all along - though sadly still getting to grips with the question.

"I had something I liked, and was sad when I lost it".  True enough.  But not the issue, because I'm not talking about "removing", I'm talking about "never having".  Remember - we're trying to balance the overall happiness where EVERYONE lives with god, FOREVER.....and your god's chosen position where some will not.  Let me try another tack.

Would you be more, less, or equally happy if you had ear tentacles that could detect microwave radiation?  And why?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2014, 07:55:00 AM »
To expand and clarify a little.....and I'll begin by re-stating the nub of my argument, which you agreed with.

Quote from: Anfauglir
My point is that if your god had created everyone with NO free will, then:
1) All people would be happy and content.
2) All people would be with god forever in paradise.
3) God would be denied the pleasure of people choosing to love him.
Yes! I agree with that.

With no free will, everyone is happy.  Individually, as happy as they may have been with free will?  Possibly.  But possibly not, since free will clearly leads to sadness in many cases.  And, if you are never aware that you do not have something, then the lack of that something will not cause you to be UNhappy (though I grant that in some cases it may make the individual happy).

Not one single human, that I am aware of, has ever had bleemik.  Up to the point when you read that word, how would you describe your level of happiness at never having had bleemik?

That's the point.  In a universe where there had never been free will, EVERYONE would be happy.  EVERYONE would be with god, EVERYONE would be in paradise and happy. 

By implementing free will, your god has ensured that for many people, that state of happiness and co-location with god and existence in paradise will not exist.  Free will, on balance, is a "lose" for humanity", and a "win" only for your insecure and needy god.....because everyone loving him by default was not enough.  It was only good enough for him if they CHOOSE to love him.

Maybe I'm way off base though.  Assume that I never choose god.  What happens to me?  You've intimated that all unbelievers will go to "heaven", but (assuming that is correct), what happens to me if I arrive in heaven, and still do not choose god?  What happens to me then?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2014, 01:23:31 PM »
To expand and clarify a little.....and I'll begin by re-stating the nub of my argument, which you agreed with.

Quote from: Anfauglir
My point is that if your god had created everyone with NO free will, then:
1) All people would be happy and content.
2) All people would be with god forever in paradise.
3) God would be denied the pleasure of people choosing to love him.
Yes! I agree with that.

With no free will, everyone is happy.  Individually, as happy as they may have been with free will?  Possibly.  But possibly not, since free will clearly leads to sadness in many cases.  And, if you are never aware that you do not have something, then the lack of that something will not cause you to be UNhappy (though I grant that in some cases it may make the individual happy).

Not one single human, that I am aware of, has ever had bleemik.  Up to the point when you read that word, how would you describe your level of happiness at never having had bleemik?

That's the point.  In a universe where there had never been free will, EVERYONE would be happy.  EVERYONE would be with god, EVERYONE would be in paradise and happy. 

By implementing free will, your god has ensured that for many people, that state of happiness and co-location with god and existence in paradise will not exist.  Free will, on balance, is a "lose" for humanity", and a "win" only for your insecure and needy god.....because everyone loving him by default was not enough.  It was only good enough for him if they CHOOSE to love him.

Maybe I'm way off base though.  Assume that I never choose god.  What happens to me?  You've intimated that all unbelievers will go to "heaven", but (assuming that is correct), what happens to me if I arrive in heaven, and still do not choose god?  What happens to me then?


Free will is like video games or TV.  I grew up my entire childhood with out it,  I had a great childhood, I enjoy video games, but they take away from me enjoying what I used to, they are bad for some people and completely absorb their lives actually reducing their quality of life, relationships, health, and ultimately happiness.  Prior to video games no one missed them and people were not generally happier.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2014, 12:29:57 PM »
Not one single human, that I am aware of, has ever had bleemik.  Up to the point when you read that word, how would you describe your level of happiness at never having had bleemik?
I like the word. I'm happier :)

Quote
That's the point.  In a universe where there had never been free will, EVERYONE would be happy.  EVERYONE would be with god, EVERYONE would be in paradise and happy.
Would happiness even exist?

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Maybe I'm way off base though.  Assume that I never choose god.  What happens to me?  You've intimated that all unbelievers will go to "heaven", but (assuming that is correct), what happens to me if I arrive in heaven, and still do not choose god?  What happens to me then?
You chose the state where you refuse God (hell) and is stuck in that state forever.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2014, 08:08:29 AM »
You chose the state where you refuse God (hell) and is stuck in that state forever.

I am making this decision using a faulty brain, with limited 2000 year old third hand hearsay information.  When I find out all the information it is too late because at that time I am judged based on my decisions in life when proof was limited.  So I am to be punished based upon my inability to see the truth in the words of bronze age teachings with my flawed human mind.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2014, 11:35:38 AM »
I am making this decision using a faulty brain, with limited 2000 year old third hand hearsay information.  When I find out all the information it is too late because at that time I am judged based on my decisions in life when proof was limited.  So I am to be punished based upon my inability to see the truth in the words of bronze age teachings with my flawed human mind.
No. You are dead and in front of God. No more faulty brain, just your spirit. As the pope said "The question for those who do not believe in God is to follow their own conscience. Sin, even for a non-believer, is when one goes against one's conscience. To listen and to follow your conscience means that you understand the difference between good and evil."
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2014, 09:34:59 PM »
Free will would be giving me all the facts, answering my questions and then letting me choose.
You have them and you chose.
As much as you can't force me to believe that there is a book next to you. I can't force you to believe that the answer you have are the truth and that you should believe them.

No. He doesn't have them. Until he finds your position plausible, until he agrees that what you present is fact, it fails to be an option and fails to be a choice.

His non-acceptance of your position is your failure. Since you fail to make your position plausible, he will remain unconvinced that it constitutes an option. If he is then judged, it will be on the basis of the failure of your bad arguments.

If you think we should be saved, perhaps your arguments should be better.
Denis Loubet

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2014, 10:34:49 PM »
If you think we should be saved, perhaps your arguments should be better.
How?
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2014, 03:04:35 AM »
If you think we should be saved, perhaps your arguments should be better.
How?

Your god is supposed to be omniscient. Surely it would know. Ask it.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2014, 08:30:30 AM »
If you think we should be saved, perhaps your arguments should be better.
How?

Your god is supposed to be omniscient. Surely it would know. Ask it.

I'm pretty sure god providing Lukvance with an answer would violate someone's free will or something.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2014, 07:55:48 PM »
If you think we should be saved, perhaps your arguments should be better.
How?
Your god is supposed to be omniscient. Surely it would know. Ask it.
He told me that all I could do is answer the questions that some of you have. I should not try to convince anyone, just testify.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2014, 12:24:04 AM »
So, where were we.
My answer to epidemic is on reply#1
My answer to the Question : "Why God made me with a fallible brain?" Was along those lines :
God made us with fallible brain because he made us finite. An infallible brain would have to be infinite.
Also, a fallible brain make us free.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2014, 08:18:33 AM »
God made us with fallible brain because he made us finite. An infallible brain would have to be infinite.
Also, a fallible brain make us free.

You had also mentioned "knowing the consequences".  Recapping, the point is that we do NOT "know" the consequences.  Every faith - and almost every believer - tells us a different thing as to what should be done, and what the consequences for doing (or not doing) those things will be.

And the finite brains we have are unable to distinguish which set of consequences are correct.....unless you are asserting that everyone who claims not to believe exactly what you do, DOES really believe it, but are just choosing not to follow through?

Thing is, Luk, if there IS a being whose desires will influence where I will spend a putative eternal afterlife, then that is probably going to be one of the most important pieces of information that I could have.  The fact that (if there is a god) it has chosen to make finding that knowledge extremely difficult.  Indeed, it seems quite content for billions of people to be born in places or times where obtaining that knowledge is not even an option.  And frankly, THAT is not a god I want to know, or would care to worship.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2014, 08:41:43 AM »
My parents love me. I know that they don't like when I make poor choices in my life. I also know that if I ask them to forgive me, they will. Does it mean that I should continue to make poor choices in my life?
Look, unless your parents are gods, this has nothing at all to do with God's attitude to mankind.

God's attitude to mankind is given in

Ro:9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro:9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro:9:15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ro:9:17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Ro:9:18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro:9:19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Ro:9:20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro:9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


God is so mighty that he just does not bother with false comparisons such as yours ("Parents" indeed - how stupid!). It is blasphemy to compare your parents to God.

I always said that Catholics have no idea of what the Bible says nor what Yahweh is like.

The theological answer to "Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?" is "Because he felt like it, and he is always right. Case closed."

...and this is the god you worship along with graven images of Christ and Mary.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 08:44:24 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2014, 12:29:24 PM »
You had also mentioned "knowing the consequences".  Recapping, the point is that we do NOT "know" the consequences.  Every faith - and almost every believer - tells us a different thing as to what should be done, and what the consequences for doing (or not doing) those things will be.
Ok may be you don't know the consequences but you "know of" the consequences at least. Saying "No" to God (or in your case your conscience) means going to hell.

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And the finite brains we have are unable to distinguish which set of consequences are correct.....unless you are asserting that everyone who claims not to believe exactly what you do, DOES really believe it, but are just choosing not to follow through?
The set of consequences? I don't know many of them. You can live forever "loved" or forever "not loved".

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Thing is, Luk, if there IS a being whose desires will influence where I will spend a putative eternal afterlife, then that is probably going to be one of the most important pieces of information that I could have. 
Ok. I don't know who told you about a being "whose desires will influence where I will spend a putative eternal afterlife" but God only wants you to be happy. So if his desire is influencing your choice it would be toward heaven, not hell.

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The fact that (if there is a god) it has chosen to make finding that knowledge extremely difficult.
Not that hard to find. You just found it. I'm pretty sure your parents taught you before me.
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Indeed, it seems quite content for billions of people to be born in places or times where obtaining that knowledge is not even an option.  And frankly, THAT is not a god I want to know, or would care to worship.
I wouldn't either if it was the case. Heaven is for everyone who choose love. Even Mowgli is capable of love.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2014, 12:38:32 PM »
Look, unless your parents are gods, this has nothing at all to do with God's attitude to mankind.

God's attitude to mankind is given in

Ro:9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro:9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro:9:15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ro:9:17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Ro:9:18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro:9:19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Ro:9:20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro:9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


God is so mighty that he just does not bother with false comparisons such as yours ("Parents" indeed - how stupid!). It is blasphemy to compare your parents to God.

I always said that Catholics have no idea of what the Bible says nor what Yahweh is like.

The theological answer to "Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?" is "Because he felt like it, and he is always right. Case closed."

...and this is the god you worship along with graven images of Christ and Mary.
Basically what you are saying is that you have a better answer than mine? But you don't believe that answer to be true!?
You're worth more than my time

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2014, 01:23:39 PM »
Ok may be you don't know the consequences but you "know of" the consequences at least. Saying "No" to God (or in your case your conscience) means going to hell.
  I don't know of any consequences.   I know of many claims but I am aware of none that are demonstrably true.

The set of consequences? I don't know many of them. You can live forever "loved" or forever "not loved".
  Have you actually read the bible?

Revelation 21:8 ESV / 93 helpful votes
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”



Ok. I don't know who told you about a being "whose desires will influence where I will spend a putative eternal afterlife" but God only wants you to be happy. So if his desire is influencing your choice it would be toward heaven, not hell.
 

If I am not mistake god has actively hardened some peoples hearts.  That would sound as if he convinces them to do wrong or not believe the truth.


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Not that hard to find. You just found it. I'm pretty sure your parents taught you before me.
  I don't know what this means, my parents also taught me about a different religion than yours.  It is impossible to differentiate fact from fiction even if one bible/religion is absolutely factual from cover to cover.  They are all based upon faith and they vary wildly in content of what you must have faith in.


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I wouldn't either if it was the case. Heaven is for everyone who choose love. Even Mowgli is capable of love.

Again have you actually read the new testament?

Quote from: Bible

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Matthew 25:46 ESV / 57 helpful votes
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

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Matthew 25:41 ESV / 57 helpful votes
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

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Romans 2:6-8 ESV / 56 helpful votes
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

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Revelation 20:15 ESV / 44 helpful votes
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

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Romans 6:23 ESV / 29 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 27 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

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Mark 9:43 ESV / 27 helpful votes
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

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Matthew 10:28 ESV / 24 helpful votes
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

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John 5:29 ESV / 19 helpful votes
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

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Deuteronomy 28:47-48 ESV / 16 helpful votes
Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2014, 02:33:29 PM »
Ok may be you don't know the consequences but you "know of" the consequences at least. Saying "No" to God (or in your case your conscience) means going to hell.

Why is your god so petty and small minded?  I thought "God" was forgiving and loving? 

Wait, I keep forgetting that "God" has bipolar disorder.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2014, 03:15:54 PM »
So, where were we.
My answer to epidemic is on reply#1
My answer to the Question : "Why God made me with a fallible brain?" Was along those lines :
God made us with fallible brain because he made us finite. An infallible brain would have to be infinite.
Also, a fallible brain make us free.

Please define what you mean by fallible and infallible.  The more thorough your definition the better.  Give some examples of what it means to be fallible.  Give some examples of what it means to be infallible.

Please define what you mean by finite and infinite.  The more thorough your definition the better.  Give some examples of what it means to be finite.  Give some examples of what it means to be infinite.

Based on how I (and speakers of the English language) define those words, your statements are false (even assuming there is a "God").  The states of being fallible or infallible are completely unrelated to the states of being finite or infinite.

It almost seems like you are trying to use these words ambiguously to abdicate "God".  Weird since I thought "the fall" would have been the easy answer.  Adam and Eve broke the rules and got kicked out of Eden, so that is why we have fallible brains.  It is a story and you don't have to do much thinking.  There is no way to prove "God" exists so who cares if we can't prove that the story of Adam and Eve or "the fall" happened.

It makes zero sense to try and ambiguously use words to shoehorn logic into it.  You're not fooling anyone Lukvance.

Define all of your words thoroughly, and stick to your definitions.  When we find flaws in your logic and definitions, you don't get to change your definitions, just admit your answer was incorrect.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why [God] made me with a fallible brain?
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2014, 04:55:11 PM »
Why is your god so petty and small minded?  I thought "God" was forgiving and loving? 
Wait, I keep forgetting that "God" has bipolar disorder.
What do you want him to forgive you for (that he has not already forgive)?
I think you guys don't understand what means saying "no" to God.
God tells you "come with me to heaven" You tell him "no, you bipolar fool!". Then you wonder why you don't go to heaven?
You're worth more than my time