Author Topic: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?  (Read 2593 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2014, 08:31:50 PM »
Lukvance, you are missing something really important here, I think.

Your story: The angels, Satan and so on all knew for sure that god existed. Adam and Eve did, too. They were in touch with god, talked with him. They knew he was completely powerful, had created everything including, we would assume, themselves.   And yet, they all turned against god.

So, they had the freedom to turn against god, even with all that knowledge.

We humans are not given all that knowledge, because, you say, it would take away our freedom to accept or reject god. Why would it take away our freedom when it did not take away theirs?

Is god afraid that we would do the same thing as the angels and the first human pair (and, it would appear, almost every single human being since then) and reject him? Given his terrible track record of keeping people from disobeying him as soon as his back is turned[1]  he is probably right on the money.

Perhaps he has impossible standards that not even angels are able to meet, which means it is his own fault since he made everyone that way in the first place. God being displeased with his own creation is like tall, thin, blue-eyed people disliking their children because the kids are string beans with these spooky blue eyes.  &)
 1. Cain and Abel, Noah's family, Lot's family, the OT Israelites, the Egyptians, the Romans, the NT Jews, every other religious group on the planet, etc. So, why doesn't anyone want to hang with him? Does this god need to change his brand of mouthwash or start using deodorant or what?
You have that knowledge. You just don't believe it true...yet. Adam, Eve and Abraham did. (and I do)
I believe that the Angel had it harder than us humans. Because they saw the face of God, their choice to revolt was a greater sin. Once their choice was made, there was no turning back (plus time doesn't exist in heaven or hell) I had the chance to change my mind. And I'm glad I did!
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2014, 08:34:14 PM »
Quote
God created angel to praise him. Angels saw the face of God and lived forever (they are born out of time)
How did you achieve this knowledge? Links? References?

You seem to have overlooked my question, could you please answer.
I'm curious as to the mental road you traveled to reach that destination.
Sorry, it was a book or an article I read some time ago. It made more sense than everything else I knew at the time. And since then every other theory proposed to me made less sense or "worked" with that one.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2014, 09:02:47 PM »
Babies, angels, harry potter....sure makes it a challenge to have a coherent conversation.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2014, 09:26:33 PM »
Babies, angels, harry potter....sure makes it a challenge to have a coherent conversation.
Why won't you stick to the exchange between you and me then? I don't care about repeating myself.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2014, 09:37:31 PM »
Sure please remind me of yr main point again, i am lost on this thread. doing my head in.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2014, 10:21:20 PM »
Do you think that having a baby is narcissism? In a way aren't you (and your partner) "creating" the baby?

Creating a baby is a biological imperative. Creating a universe so that you can get worshipped? That's narcissim.

Making a baby? That's real. Making up a religion? That's not. Its apparently a typical human reaction to the mysteries of life. Sadly, some people believe it. And, by the way, inventing a religion is narcissistic too (well, not really "too", because since there isn't a god, he isn't actually narcisstic, but the people who think he is real often are. Don't think for a second that you are the exception).

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2014, 10:28:38 PM »
Expecting your child to worship you and spend their whole life doing nothing but singing your praises? Yeah, that would be very, very narcissistic. Don't you agree, Lukvance?

Telling me that I secretly know that god is real does not answer my question. My boss is real but I do not worship her. Knowing something is real does not mean that a person will worship it. [1]

You missed the point again. Adam and Eve saw god and talked to him directly. How would having certain knowledge that god is real make me less free than Adam and Eve? If god thought it was okay for the people in the OT to see him and know he was real, why is it not okay nowadays?

The angels saw god's awesome face and still rebelled. Is it any wonder that most people who have ever lived, who have not seen god's awesomeness, also reject your god? What is wrong with this god that almost nobody wants to worship him? It's like he has cooties or something. :P

Seems very strange for him to have created the universe expressly to sing his praises, and then filled the world with people who would not like him.  It's like a person who is allergic to cats going to work at the cat rescue shelter, becoming sick --and then getting angry at the cats. And to keep with the way OT god does things, the allergic person burns down the entire building, killing  everyone inside.

God's behavior always seems psychotic when we compare him to a regular human. I guess we shouldn't be looking to god for guidance on how to behave, right?  &)

 1. Or else you could be worshipping Mr. Spock, Harry Potter, Brahma, Xenu, Shango or a stack of Legos right now, since they are all real as far as you are concerned. I think you would make a very good Hindu, with your willingness to believe in lots of gods.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2014, 11:58:08 PM »
God is not a narcissist.
Yes, he is. Please refer to PP's, nogods' and jdawg's responses to this statement since they happen to mirror mine.
Quote
I don't think they were stupid I think it's more an ego thing. Have you ever hit a wall with your fist? Didn't you know that the wall was stronger?
Have you ever hit a wall with your fist believing that you could reduce it to rubble? That is stupidity.

Have you ever thought you could step in to a boxing ring with Mike Tyson believing you could KO him? That is both stupidity and having a death wish.

Angels believing they can go toe-to-toe with their Almighty (ie: all-powerful) creator? Stupid, suicidal with some severe self-delusion to boot.

Quote
I realize that it might look like the Idea of hell full of fallen angel contradicts Revelations 12:4. But it makes more sense to me that the fallen angel went to hell than they went on earth. So I interpret this passage with "the stars of heaven" being in heaven and earth as being hell. Heaven being the sky and hell being the earth. I don't believe heaven nor hell to be at one particular place (mainly because there is no "time" there)

You completely missed the point. You claimed the fallen angels went there of their own free will. Revelations clearly states that they were "cast/hurled/thrown" to the earth. Are you saying your personal interpretation is more valid than what is in the Bible?

Oh, and ditto everything nogodsforme just said ^^.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2014, 12:43:15 AM »
Is there anything that this god thing has done in the last twenty-four hours?
He changes more than 200.000 lives each year (conversions). So around 600 lives yesterday. (http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html)

And thus take eth away .  You're god is kind of like a kid and an ant farm.

http://www.asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safety-facts/road-crash-statistics.aspx

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Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2014, 03:56:50 AM »
Lukvance why do you believe in a cruel and vain god?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2014, 07:43:13 AM »
The concept of time is human.

I believe in multiple timeline. In one of them, Adam and Eve did not eat the forbidden fruit and Satan did not try to be stronger than God.

Is this the part of your belief which you mentioned you took from Star Trek?

Aaaaannnd a big bada bing!

I think I saw that episode. Every version.

This is the episode called Mirror Mirror.



Lukvance, I cannot take anyone seriously, who takes their religious beliefs from Star Trek.

Star trek influenced my life (i'm a geek) but not as much as the Bible.

You are just living in a fantasy land of science fiction and religion. Your comments show that you confuse both with reality.

Are alien visitors real? Yes
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 08:03:44 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2014, 09:40:40 AM »
Sorry, it was a book or an article I read some time ago. It made more sense than everything else I knew at the time. And since then every other theory proposed to me made less sense or "worked" with that one.

No offense intended but ,you are hopelessly lost if that is what makes the most sense to you. 

:(
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2014, 11:47:35 AM »

This is the episode called Mirror Mirror.



Lukvance, I cannot take anyone seriously, who takes their religious beliefs from Star Trek.

Hmm, I missed when Spock had a goatee.

Must have been an alternate timeline.

OH WAIT, that is evil Spock!

Wait, why does having a goatee make someone the evil version of themselves?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 11:49:54 AM by SevenPatch »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2014, 12:04:37 PM »
Wait, why does having a goatee make someone the evil version of themselves?
It just does.  Stop asking questions, heathen, and put your evil uniform on:
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2014, 12:08:28 PM »
Do you think that having a baby is narcissism? In a way aren't you (and your partner) "creating" the baby?

The problem isn't the "creating" part.  The problem is in the "to praise him" part.

It's...weird that you mixed that up.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2014, 01:13:20 PM »
Do you think that having a baby is narcissism? In a way aren't you (and your partner) "creating" the baby?

The problem isn't the "creating" part.  The problem is in the "to praise him" part.

It's...weird that you mixed that up.

Sometimes a point will sail over someone's head.  Lukvance, however, ducks as a matter of course.  He feels that if he doesn't get your point, he's more free to choose to not believe it.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2014, 02:28:40 PM »
Wait, why does having a goatee make someone the evil version of themselves?
It just does.  Stop asking questions, heathen, and put your evil uniform on:


Mirror Spock, Stalin, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Burt Reynolds, 1970's porn guys.  Clearly, facial hair equals evil.

Except the Amish/Abe Lincoln beard fringe. And The Village People. And Tony Stark. And wizards.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2014, 05:49:26 AM »
WAITING...........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2014, 03:04:25 PM »
Creating a baby is a biological imperative.
I know many people who died of old age without having a baby. How is that a biological imperative?
Do you think that having a baby is narcissism?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2014, 03:16:37 PM »
Expecting your child to worship you and spend their whole life doing nothing but singing your praises? Yeah, that would be very, very narcissistic. Don't you agree, Lukvance?

I totally agree with you. But don't tell me that you are not expecting your children to respect you....their whole life! Or that you don't want them to make you proud.

Quote
Telling me that I secretly know that god is real does not answer my question
I'm sorry your question implied that you didn't know that God existed. Could you reformulate the question?
Quote
If god thought it was okay for the people in the OT to see him and know he was real, why is it not okay nowadays?
i don't believe they saw him. They just heard him. Also, people in the OT chose to listen to him before hearing him.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2014, 03:22:11 PM »
Are you saying your personal interpretation is more valid than what is in the Bible?

I'm saying that being cast away is the consequence of their choice. They chose to go where god is not. It's like you fist hurts when you hit the wall. Consequence.
Thinking that you are better than someone else is something you can relate to, right? Does it make you stupid? The angels weren't stupid.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2014, 03:25:26 PM »
And thus take eth away .  You're god is kind of like a kid and an ant farm.
http://www.asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safety-facts/road-crash-statistics.aspx
Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day.
What makes you think he is the one responsible for road crashes?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2014, 03:28:38 PM »
Do you think that having a baby is narcissism? In a way aren't you (and your partner) "creating" the baby?
The problem isn't the "creating" part.  The problem is in the "to praise him" part.
It's...weird that you mixed that up.
The point I was making is : You are having kids for a reason and that reason is not for them to praise you. God did the something similar with the universe.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2014, 03:30:14 PM »
Lukvance why do you believe in a cruel and vain god?
It is not MY belief that God is cruel and/or vain. It is YOURS.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2014, 02:15:14 AM »
Lukvance why do you believe in a cruel and vain god?
It is not MY belief that God is cruel and/or vain. It is YOURS.

You believe in hell you believe in worship.  That makes your god cruel and vain. 

What have I ever said that defines the god I believe in as cruel or vain? 

Sad you don't even realize how cruel and vain your god is. :'( :'( :'(  That's what makes you so dangerous!!!

« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 02:17:24 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2014, 10:12:45 AM »
I find it curious how Christians try to posit the existence of an utterly transcendent deity (First Cause, Unmoved Mover, Ground of All Being, infinitely intelligent, powerful, wise, and omnipresent, the ultimate supremely perfect manifestation of every worthy ideal, etc. and so forth), and then attribute to it the most shallow, base, and selfish human motives: power-lust, and an insatiable need for groveling and praises.  Neither of which is even compatible with the attributes they want their god to have.  "Big man in sky has really big club!  Wants praises and be king of all the humans!  Obey or GOD SMAAAASH!"  A baboon could understand that mentality.  That's the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything?  Really?!  Despotic monarchy is the Grand Unified Theory?

Compare that rudimentary lizard-brain level of "spirituality" with the "Machine Elves," alleged entities that people "encounter" while using DMT (dimethyltryptomine):

Quote
[Machine Elves] are dynamically contorting topological modules that are somehow distinct from the surrounding background, which is itself undergoing a continuous transformation. These entities remind me of the scene in the film version of The Wizard of Oz after the Munchkins come with a death certificate for the Witch of the East. They all have very squeaky voices and they sing a little song about being "absolutely and completely dead." The tryptamine Munchkins come, these hyperdimensional machine-elf entities, and they bathe one in love... saying, "Don't be alarmed. Remember, and do what we are doing." One of the interesting characteristics of DMT is that it sometimes inspires fear... A touch of terror gives the stamp of validity to the experience because it means, "This is real.”

The fractal elves seem to be reassuring, saying, "Don't worry, don't worry; do this, look at this." Meanwhile, one is completely "over there." ...The elves are saying, "Don't get a loop of wonder going that quenches your ability to understand. Try not to be so amazed. Try to focus and look at what we're doing." What they're doing is emitting sounds like music, like language. These sounds pass without any quantized moment of distinction... from things heard to things beheld. One hears and beholds a language of alien meaning that is conveying alien information that cannot be Englished.

They're like jeweled self-dribbling basketballs and there are many of them and they come pounding toward you and they will stop in front of you and vibrate, but then they do a very disconcerting thing, which is they jump into your body and then they jump back out again and the whole thing is going on in a high-speed mode where you're being presented with thousands of details per second and you can't get a hold on [them ...]

--Terrence McKenna, The Invisible Landscape Source.

Notice how they're not just a primitive human dominator archetype, how they're beyond easy human comprehension and categorization, how they exhibit a "mind-blowing" quality that's simply not present in the Biblical sky-monarch.  Whatever their actual reality-status (or lack thereof) might be, are they not much closer to what a genuinely transcendent entity would be like? 
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2014, 10:52:27 AM »
i don't believe they saw him. They just heard him. Also, people in the OT chose to listen to him before hearing him.



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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2014, 04:51:37 PM »
Do you think that having a baby is narcissism? In a way aren't you (and your partner) "creating" the baby?
The problem isn't the "creating" part.  The problem is in the "to praise him" part.
It's...weird that you mixed that up.
The point I was making is : You are having kids for a reason and that reason is not for them to praise you. God did the something similar with the universe.

Never in a million years would I have guessed that was the point you were going for.  Especially since this thread was about angels.  And god's purpose for creating them.  Which you said were created for the purpose of praising god.  Which now appears to be something you want to take back.

So just clear it up.  Lukvance, did god create the angels for the purpose of praising him?  Start with 'yes' or 'no', and then elaborate from there if you so wish.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man?
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2014, 06:23:32 PM »
I'm saying that being cast away is the consequence of their choice. They chose to go where god is not. It's like you fist hurts when you hit the wall. Consequence.
Thinking that you are better than someone else is something you can relate to, right? Does it make you stupid? The angels weren't stupid.

Thinking you are better than someone else makes you arrogant. Actually acting upon that assumption when you know you have no chance of winning is stupid.

See the difference?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.