Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 7726 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #638 on: May 29, 2014, 01:25:47 AM »
Slavery first , Lukvance. Then we can deal with how the bible treats women. Where in the bible does it say slavery is wrong and god wants everyone to free all slaves? The bible has lots of stuff about slavery, mainly showing how it should be done.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #639 on: May 29, 2014, 01:57:28 AM »
Slavery first , Lukvance. Then we can deal with how the bible treats women. Where in the bible does it say slavery is wrong and god wants everyone to free all slaves? The bible has lots of stuff about slavery, mainly showing how it should be done.
Read John 13:1–17 and tell us what you understand about God and his relation to slavery.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #640 on: May 29, 2014, 03:28:18 AM »
Slavery first , Lukvance. Then we can deal with how the bible treats women. Where in the bible does it say slavery is wrong and god wants everyone to free all slaves? The bible has lots of stuff about slavery, mainly showing how it should be done.
Read John 13:1–17 and tell us what you understand about God and his relation to slavery.

I only wish this was true - I really do. Yet, in fact, this says nothing about what thinks about slavery. What Jesus was doing in the 'story' is to show the disciples that they need to serve one another. The group didn't have slaves, didn't use slaves, so it isn't about slavery.

Can you think where Jesus taught anything about slavery? Paul didn't know anything as he wrote that slaves show work hard for their masters and never mentioned the fact that slavery was bad. If you are bored we could list all the instructions in the OT about slavery - the rules and regulations regarding it - and point out that these were in force in Jesus' day as well as Roman slaves. Yet what did Jesus denounce? Yes, the trade in animals for slaughter, needed to fulfil the rules in the Torah that were given by this god - you know the one who was supposed to be Jesus' father.

So don't try to argue with the question of slavery. Remember Jesus was with god when the instructions for the Torah were given to Moses. Jesus, at least according to your church was part of everything that god did so he must have known whether the OT actually happened as history and he never questioned it.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #641 on: May 29, 2014, 11:08:36 AM »
Why would God need to "walk up to the hospital and do surgery in front of everyone's eyes"? Who says that he absolutely must do that? you only.

No, I did not say god must do that.  You either did not understand my point, or you are trying to put words in my mouth.  Either way, your reply misses the mark.  My point was when you said god healed people, you have no way to know that it was god.  This is because you have defined god as being undetectable.  So, if god really did do it, you cannot tell. 

It's your word against theirs and the whole bunch of people that was affected by the kids miraculous remission.

Ah, so your evidence is that a bunch of people just believe it.  Exactly as I said.  You make my point for me.  Thank you. 

You may call it a "miraculous" remission, but that implies god did something.  "Mysterious" might be a better description, since you cannot know what caused it.
 
If you want to call a spoon a fork, go ahead, I won't stop you. It doesn't change the reality of the spoon. You will still be wrong.

The problem is you are calling it a spoon when there are no forks or spoons anywhere to be seen.

God will work through me means that he will propose to me to do or say something

How does this happen?  How do you know it is god?  Does he walk up to you and ask you?  Does he call you on the phone?  Does he speak to you through the car radio?  Please explain.

He won't force his will upon me either. Is it clearer?

No, it is not clear.



They are the factual story. The part where actual event took place.

Even if this were true, it has nothing to do with what I said.  I said, it was not the whole story.  You selected the gospels as your argument, but there are 62 other books in the bible.  Why do you exclude those?  I would guess it is because you know some of those other books contradict the argument you are making.

The only place where, if God was so evil and asked people to kill, God/Jesus would ask people to kill.

Not necessarily.  jesus said he did not come to change the law.  And the law included a lot of killing.  jesus did not change that.  Why not?  jesus also did not clarify that slavery was wrong.  Why not?  I would guess it is because you know some of those other books contradict the argument you are making.

 
Oh by the way who can tell me what is the 5th commandment that God gave us? That he actually ASKED us to do?

It says not to murder other jews.  It is interesting that is the 5th and not the first, no?  The first four are all about worshipping god.  And if you notice, god personally killed a lot of people for breaking one or more of those first four.  But he only every punished one or two people for breaking the 5th.  That tells you where his priorities are.  Killing is not a big deal to him.

After that yhwh listed a whole bunch of "crimes" for which jews were supposed to kill people.  Ridiculous things.  Unruly children should be stoned.  Picking up sticks on Saturday warranted death.  Wearing clothes of different fibers was so offensive that people had to be killed for it.  Etc, etc. The list goes on. 

Then, after all that, he commanded the jews to kill ALL the Midianites - men, women, little boys - and take the girls as sex slaves.  Then he commanded the jews to pretty much slaughter everyone in Canaan.

So, you are wrong.

And let me ask you, what is the 9th commandment? 


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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #642 on: May 29, 2014, 11:20:09 AM »
incidentally, guys, why just 10 commandments? There are 613 commandments in the Torah though just over half are about temple worship that cannot now happen as there is no Jerusalem temple.

Who gave permission for all the Torah to be ignored[1] but that these 10 commandments show be trotted out? The gentiles were to abstain from blood and foods offered to idols and that was set as the limit to their Torah observance.

Luk, keep up with your religion - Jesus cut the laws down to just 2.
 1. Peter and Paul in Jerusalem  see Acts 15
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #643 on: May 29, 2014, 01:53:53 PM »
I only wish this was true - I really do. Yet, in fact, this says nothing about what thinks about slavery. What Jesus was doing in the 'story' is to show the disciples that they need to serve one another. The group didn't have slaves, didn't use slaves, so it isn't about slavery.
First thing first, I will argue what I want to argue. You are making a mistake when you say that God is fine with slavery.
John 13:16 : "Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." You did not read it to the end apparently. I don't know how God could be more clear about the relation between the master and his slaves/servant. He even added "very truly I tell you" in front for you to realize how important what is coming after.

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Can you think where Jesus taught anything about slavery?
Yes! :)
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Paul didn't know anything as he wrote that slaves show work hard for their masters and never mentioned the fact that slavery was bad.
Because, you know Paul so intimately that you know what he knew and did not know?

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If you are bored we could list all the instructions in the OT about slavery - the rules and regulations regarding it - and point out that these were in force in Jesus' day as well as Roman slaves.
No need, however, thank you for the kind offering.  I don't think it will be relevant here since Jesus came in fact to rectify that.

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Yet what did Jesus denounce? Yes, the trade in animals for slaughter, needed to fulfil the rules in the Torah that were given by this god - you know the one who was supposed to be Jesus' father.
And slavery too! And women rights (remember John 8:7?) and...so many other things
Don't worry I understand that you want to show of you knowledge of the new testament and mock him at the same time but this is not helping.

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Remember Jesus was with god when the instructions for the Torah were given to Moses. Jesus, at least according to your church was part of everything that god did so he must have known whether the OT actually happened as history and he never questioned it.
I agree with you that Jesus was there when the instructions for the Torah were given to Moses... And he was there afterwards to explain to guys like you how wrongly they interpreted these laws.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #644 on: May 29, 2014, 04:00:26 PM »
I love the ret-conning on the slavery issue!

Slavery was a major part of every religious society, Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever. No religion ever ended slavery outright--slavery kept on going right along with devout slave owners forcing their slaves to practice their faith. Christian slave owners read the bible to their slaves.The millions of people enslaved by Christians between 800AD and 1800AD never got their prayers for freedom answered. Church leaders, priests and pastors owned slaves.  Either god did not care or he was fine with slavery.

Now that secular governments have all banned slavery, every religion is desperately trying to rewrite that horrible history. Slavery was not really that bad; slaves were just servants, like family members.[1] Or my religion actually was against slavery but people did not listen and god was busy. Sorry, no. Your religion never came out clearly and unequivocally against slavery. Your god, like all the gods before him, either did not care, or thought slavery was a fine way to run a society.

Did lightning bolts from the sky strike all slave owners dead and free any slaves? No. It was not that important.  Jesus did not go on and on about the evils of owning other human beings. It was not that important. No commandment said, "Thou shalt not buy, sell or own human beings and force them to work without pay." It was not that important. 

Every Christian-dominated society practiced legally sanctioned slavery from the beginning until the 19th century.  All major world powers--US, England, Spain, France, Portugal, etc. built their economies on the backs of slaves. (Incidentally, the Catholic colonies were some of the last to voluntarily end slavery.)

When the abolitionists (mainly weirdos, outcasts, Mennonites, Quakers and so forth) spoke against slavery, they could not quote much from the NT. They had to pull stuff from the OT about the persecution of the Israelites. Where are the clear anti-slavery commandments? Where are the godly punishments for owning slaves, any slaves, not just Jewish slaves?

Correct me if I am wrong, but all major religions allowed for the continuation of slavery after they were established. If we were to write a list of "commandments" for a society to live by today, we would definitely ban slavery, along with child molestation, rape and discrimination against people of different races. Modern constitutions and laws are way more advanced than any supposedly perfect  god-given ancient sacred text.

Yet another reason to doubt that any religion came from beyond the ordinary human society that invented it.
 1. People who say that sh!t never volunteer themselves to become slaves, I mean unpaid, unfree family members, themselves ...
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #645 on: May 29, 2014, 04:50:33 PM »

My point was when you said god healed people, you have no way to know that it was god.

Of course we know, we call that testimony.
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This is because you have defined god as being undetectable.  So, if god really did do it, you cannot tell.

You are the one making such a definition. I can detect God as easily as I can detect emotions. So if God did it we will be able to tell.
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Ah, so your evidence is that a bunch of people just believe it.  Exactly as I said.  You make my point for me.  Thank you.

"Just a bunch of people" is what you need to know what emotion you are feeling now? What was your point again : "when you said god healed people, you have no way to know that it was god"? How does this prove your point? It goes totally in the opposite direction.
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You may call it a "miraculous" remission, but that implies god did something.  "Mysterious" might be a better description, since you cannot know what caused it.

You are making a mistake because you base your affirmations on a false premise. We can know what caused it, prayer to God.
 
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The problem is you are calling it a spoon when there are no forks or spoons anywhere to be seen.

Haha nope. I am calling it the same way the people involved are calling it : "miracle" you are the one saying "no it's not miracle it's chance!" you're calling a spoon a fork. Go ahead but it is a mistake.

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God will work through me means that he will propose to me to do or say something
How does this happen?  How do you know it is god?  Does he walk up to you and ask you?  Does he call you on the phone?  Does he speak to you through the car radio?  Please explain.
You know when you realize that you have a feeling? Does the feeling walk up to you and ask you?  Does it call you on the phone?  Does it speak to you through the car radio? No. You just know it's there and (sometime) you know why. Same thing with God, you know what to say or do and you know why.
God will work through me means that he will propose to me to do or say something, he won't force his will upon me either. Is it clearer?
No, it is not clear. [/quote]
What do you not understand? It pretty simple. God tell something, me do it if me want to. God not forcing me to do anything.

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there are 62 other books in the bible.  Why do you exclude those?
"The gospels are the factual story. The part where actual events took place. The Old testament is mostly stories without actual events in it." What is so complicated to understand in that phrase?

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jesus said he did not come to change the law.  And the law included a lot of killing.  jesus did not change that.  Why not?
He did not change the law, he just corrected the twisted way people like you understood it.
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  jesus also did not clarify that slavery was wrong.  Why not?
Please read my previous post on that subject. You are wrong Jesus clearly state that slavery is wrong.
 
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It [the 5th commandment] says not to murder other jews.
Read it again. Here, let me copy paste it for you so you can underline for me where it talks about Jews :
Deuteronomy 5:17 "You must not murder anyone."[1]
Exodus 20:13 "You must not murder anyone."[2]


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It is interesting that is the 5th and not the first, no?
No. Obey the 4 first and you will never do the 5th. Heck, obey only the 1st and you won't ever do the other 9.
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And if you notice, god personally killed a lot of people for breaking one or more of those first four.  But he only every punished one or two people for breaking the 5th. That tells you where his priorities are.  Killing is not a big deal to him.

You are again wrong. God (in fact) never killed anyone.

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After that yhwh listed a whole bunch of "crimes" for which jews were supposed to kill people.  Ridiculous things.  Unruly children should be stoned.  Picking up sticks on Saturday warranted death.  Wearing clothes of different fibers was so offensive that people had to be killed for it.  Etc, etc. The list goes on. 
Then, after all that, he commanded the jews to kill ALL the Midianites - men, women, little boys - and take the girls as sex slaves.  Then he commanded the jews to pretty much slaughter everyone in Canaan.
Wrong again. Jesus was there to make you realize how much wrong you are to think such things.

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And let me ask you, what is the 9th commandment?
It can be simplified as "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"
Here is the "real one"
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.
Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."[3]
The ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another's goods
Christian theology has given concupiscence a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason.
 1. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%205:17&version=EXB
 2. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20%3A13&version=EXB
 3. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a9.htm
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #646 on: May 29, 2014, 05:03:44 PM »
incidentally, guys, why just 10 commandments? There are 613 commandments in the Torah though just over half are about temple worship that cannot now happen as there is no Jerusalem temple.
Who gave permission for all the Torah to be ignored[1] but that these 10 commandments show be trotted out? The gentiles were to abstain from blood and foods offered to idols and that was set as the limit to their Torah observance.
Luk, keep up with your religion - Jesus cut the laws down to just 2.
 1. Peter and Paul in Jerusalem  see Acts 15
What really is your question? You seem to know so much.
In response to the question about the first of the commandments, Jesus says:
"The first is, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength"
The second is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" There is no other commandment greater than these."
The 4 first commandment are summed up in the 1st sentence.
"You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet" and any other commandment, are summed up in the second sentence, (You shall love your neighbor as yourself). Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #647 on: May 29, 2014, 05:50:42 PM »
Slavery was a major part of every religious society, Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever. No religion ever ended slavery outright--slavery kept on going right along with devout slave owners forcing their slaves to practice their faith. Christian slave owners read the bible to their slaves.The millions of people enslaved by Christians between 800AD and 1800AD never got their prayers for freedom answered. Church leaders, priests and pastors owned slaves.  Either god did not care or he was fine with slavery.

Wake up. People make mistakes, not God. Could you back up the bolded sentence?
I don't think you are right about that. Christians were the first to free their slaves since the coming of Jesus : Christianity recognized marriage of sorts among slaves[1], freeing slaves was regarded as an act of charity[2]
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Your religion never came out clearly and unequivocally against slavery. Your god, like all the gods before him, either did not care, or thought slavery was a fine way to run a society.

You are wrong. You can read in the catechism (the thing we, Catholics, use to "come out clearly") : "The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian slave "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother, . . . both in the flesh and in the Lord."[3]
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Did lightning bolts from the sky strike all slave owners dead and free any slaves? No. It was not that important.

No. No lightning bolts from the sky. Do you think that's the only way to go? Kill kill kill!? :(
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Jesus did not go on and on about the evils of owning other human beings. It was not that important. No commandment said, "Thou shalt not buy, sell or own human beings and force them to work without pay." It was not that important.

On the contrary! You should read John 13:16 again before imposing us such non sense.
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Every Christian-dominated society practiced legally sanctioned slavery from the beginning until the 19th century.  All major world powers--US, England, Spain, France, Portugal, etc. built their economies on the backs of slaves.
Again, humans wrong doings, not God.
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  (Incidentally, the Catholic colonies were some of the last to voluntarily end slavery.)

What!? for real? How do you know that? (proof please)
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When the abolitionists (mainly weirdos, outcasts, Mennonites, Quakers and so forth) spoke against slavery, they could not quote much from the NT. They had to pull stuff from the OT about the persecution of the Israelites. Where are the clear anti-slavery commandments? Where are the godly punishments for owning slaves, any slaves, not just Jewish slaves?

Now you are just playing with us right? Maybe you should read John 13:16 again.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but all major religions allowed for the continuation of slavery after they were established.

You are wrong. It wasn't the religion, it was the people. The correct phrase would be "most people allowed for the continuation of slavery" would they be religious or not religious.
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Modern constitutions and laws are way more advanced than any supposedly perfect god-given ancient sacred text.

You are wrong. Prove it. (maybe in another post)
 1. Goodell, The American Slave Code. Pt. I Ch. VII
 2. http://historymedren.about.com/od/dailylifesociety/a/Chains.htm
 3. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm#2414
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #648 on: May 29, 2014, 05:54:32 PM »
"You are again wrong. God (in fact) never killed anyone."

Lukvance, before we move on, are you sure you want to go with this? Innocent people die of floods, wildfires, tsunamis, earthquakes, lightning strikes (just not of slave owners), rare diseases and freak accidents every day. If god is not in charge of that, who is? Do people create earthquakes?

I know. People cause earthquakes and tsunamis to happen by sin. That's why people say the earth moves....  ;)

Websites have listed all the people killed by god in the bible. Someone here can dig it up. Are you saying that there was no global flood, no destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, no plagues of Egypt, no killing of all the firstborn?

If you say yes, I agree with you. I am just trying to get some clarity on what you actually believe of the bible. You sound more and more like the new age Christians we have in the US, who say everyone (Muslims, atheists, Jehovah's Witnesses) is going to heaven, as long as they are nice.  Along with their dogs and kitty-cats. You only believe the nice "Jesus is love" parts and write off the other 75% as non-literal stories and myths.

You would be burned at the stake as a heretic by your fellow Catholics if you lived in 1300AD. Right beside me, the atheist.


Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #649 on: May 29, 2014, 06:11:40 PM »
Do you think no slaves prayed for slavery to end during the past couple thousand years? I would find that very hard to believe.

Off the top of my head, Brazil was one of the last countries in the Americas to end slavery. Let me look it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

This link shows a very piecemeal approach to ending slavery with non-Christian Japan ending it in 1200, way ahead of most of Europe. Various Christian communities condemned slavery from time to time, but abolition was not a general practice. So, god must have been listening very closely to the prayers of slaves in Japan. The slaves in the US would have to wait until the 1860's.

Okay, I take it back, I was wrong. Some of the Catholic countries ended slavery before many Protestant countries. Just not Brazil. The Middle East has been the slowest to end slavery. :(

Seems to me that religion does generally manage to coexist with slavery and can sometimes influence people to end it. God most definitely does not interfere in the free will of slaves to not be slaves. God often waits until the slave owners agree to give it up, then he jumps in and frees the slaves. Hurray, god.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #650 on: May 29, 2014, 09:33:23 PM »

My point was when you said god healed people, you have no way to know that it was god.

Of course we know, we call that testimony.

I was going to write a detailed reply, but upon further consideration, I have decided this conversation is too far gone.  You seem to have willfully and completely misunderstood almost everything I have said. Your english is not good enough, you are not smart enough and you are way too arrogant to ever get this conversation back on track.

So, I am going to respond to just a few factual things.



Read it again. Here, let me copy paste it for you so you can underline for me where it talks about Jews :
Deuteronomy 5:17 "You must not murder anyone."
Exodus 20:13 "You must not murder anyone."

Your quote is wrong.  The word is "murder" not "kill" and it does not say "anyone".  especially since god then told the hebrews to kill a lot of people.  Just like the rest of the commandments, it only applied to jews.


You are again wrong. God (in fact) never killed anyone.

You are wrong:
"But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death"
gen 38:7

"What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also"
gen 38:10


Wrong again. Jesus was there to make you realize how much wrong you are to think such things.

No.  You know I am right.  jesus was not in the old testament. 
Numbers 25:4
"The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord,"

The original language was more explicit.  he wanted their heads cut off and hung in the sun.[1]
where was jesus?

Numbers 25:16-17
"The Lord said to Moses,  “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them."
where was jesus?

numbers 31:1-2
"The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."
where was jesus?

numbers 31:7
"They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man."
where was jesus?

numbers 31:8
"The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children..."
where was jesus?

numbers 31:11
"They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,"
the people were "spoils".  and where was jesus?

numbers 31:17
"Now kill all the boys."
where was jesus?

numbers 31:17
"And kill every woman who has slept with a man"
where was jesus?

numbers 31:18
"but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
where was jesus? 


So much for "do not kill anyone".



It can be simplified as "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"

The one I was referring to is "Do not lie".[2]  Your lies make baby jesus cry.


 1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=25&t=KJV&ss=1
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_bear_false_witness_against_thy_neighbour
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #651 on: May 30, 2014, 12:00:41 AM »
LukeV if God had it right in the OT,with slavery,treatment of women,why the change of heart?  Why did God go from an angry vengeful god to a fun loving caring god. If he had it right the first time,and he must have had it right to KILL everyone. Why not get it right the first time?

 Christians are DELUSIONAL (as are all religions)

 If God has it right there is no need for religion to evolve as it has......look at the Muslim religion,no evolution,men still firmly in charge,living like its still the stone age.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 12:03:57 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #652 on: May 30, 2014, 04:30:09 AM »
incidentally, guys, why just 10 commandments? There are 613 commandments in the Torah though just over half are about temple worship that cannot now happen as there is no Jerusalem temple.
Who gave permission for all the Torah to be ignored[1] but that these 10 commandments show be trotted out? The gentiles were to abstain from blood and foods offered to idols and that was set as the limit to their Torah observance.
Luk, keep up with your religion - Jesus cut the laws down to just 2.
 1. Peter and Paul in Jerusalem  see Acts 15
What really is your question? You seem to know so much.
In response to the question about the first of the commandments, Jesus says:
"The first is, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength"
The second is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" There is no other commandment greater than these."
The 4 first commandment are summed up in the 1st sentence.
"You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet" and any other commandment, are summed up in the second sentence, (You shall love your neighbor as yourself). Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So why mention the 10?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #653 on: May 30, 2014, 07:33:43 AM »


I was going to write a detailed reply, but upon further consideration, I have decided this conversation is too far gone.  You seem to have willfully and completely misunderstood almost everything I have said. Your english is not good enough, you are not smart enough and you are way too arrogant to ever get this conversation back on track.


Or alternatively, the misinterpretations deliberate, the ignorance feigned, the arrogance not from what he purports. I think Nam was right, we have a troll here.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #654 on: May 30, 2014, 09:19:24 AM »
So why mention the 10?

Free will.  And math.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #655 on: May 30, 2014, 03:48:44 PM »
LukeV if God had it right in the OT,with slavery,treatment of women,why the change of heart?  Why did God go from an angry vengeful god to a fun loving caring god. If he had it right the first time,and he must have had it right to KILL everyone. Why not get it right the first time?

 Christians are DELUSIONAL (as are all religions)

 If God has it right there is no need for religion to evolve as it has......look at the Muslim religion,no evolution,men still firmly in charge,living like its still the stone age.

Yep. Islam will either have a big reformation and change to fit into the 21st century, or it will gradually fade away as a major belief.

Nostradamus cap on: I predict the former; some leaders will discover a new decoder ring and magically all the literal sura in the Quran will become metaphors. I also predict the time frame for that to happen:  soon after the oil runs out. When the Saudis have no valuable resources left, world leaders won't have to kiss the royal family's tuckus anymore. Everyone will be shocked, shocked I say, to suddenly notice that it is just another oppressive, brutal dictatorship: North Korea of Arabia.[1]

Unfortunately, reformations involving the religions of peace are rarely peaceful. Christianity's reformation was marked by schisms; persecuting, torturing and banishing heretical groups; long, bloody, destructive wars.[2]The major downside of setting off a reform movement is that one of the most tradition-bound Muslim countries, Pakistan, has nuclear weapons.

A major upside is that the reform struggle will not take nearly as long as the couple centuries it took in Europe. Nowadays, the world is so connected by communication that the reform movement will spread almost overnight. Fast forward to 2114 and Muslims will be as exciting as the Unitarians, with Qurans translated into Klingon, lesbian imams and mullahs declaring that the newfangled GMO bacon is perfectly halal.

Nostradamus cap off. ;D
 1. "What, you mean atheism is illegal, women can't drive and they execute gays there? Well, I never!"
 2. I have already warned Lukvance about this; during the medieval era, his own perfect and unchanging religion would have burned him at the stake for saying the OT is not the literal word of god.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 03:53:15 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #656 on: May 30, 2014, 04:49:09 PM »
Read it again. Here, let me copy paste it for you so you can underline for me where it talks about Jews :
Deuteronomy 5:17 "You must not murder anyone."
Exodus 20:13 "You must not murder anyone."
Your quote is wrong.  The word is "murder" not "kill" and it does not say "anyone".  especially since god then told the hebrews to kill a lot of people.  Just like the rest of the commandments, it only applied to jews.
Did you notice how you did not paste the source that I added next to them ON PURPOSE so you cannot tell me that I misquoted? Not cool man, not cool. I did not misquote, you simply misunderstood. You should know when you are making a mistake and you are making one now. I disagree, the 10 commandments was given to humanity, it's just that the people who followed this law called themselves "Jews" (I'm not sure if it was jews yet, maybe you made another mistake there too).
Why do you think it applies only to the jews? Is it written somewhere in the bible that "you shall apply this law but only among yourselves. And everyone else? f*** them!" (or something like that)?

Quote
You are again wrong. God (in fact) never killed anyone.
You are wrong:
"But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death"
gen 38:7
[...]
You are citing the old testament. Let me redirect you to a topic that might enlighten you : http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26572.msg608108.html#msg608108
It will help you understand how wrong you are to cite Old Testament stories as facts.

Quote
Wrong again. Jesus was there to make you realize how much wrong you are to think such things.

No.  You know I am right.  jesus was not in the old testament. 
Numbers 25:4
"The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord,"

The original language was more explicit.  he wanted their heads cut off and hung in the sun.[1]
Numbers 25:16-17
"The Lord said to Moses,  “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them."
where was jesus?
[...]
So much for "do not kill anyone".
 1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=25&t=KJV&ss=1
He wasn't born yet.
Do you believe that the stories in the Old testament are historical facts?

Quote
The one I was referring to is "Do not lie".[2]  Your lies make baby jesus cry.
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_bear_false_witness_against_thy_neighbour
Alright, that's it. Now I'm a liar? Prove your claim or apologize.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #657 on: May 30, 2014, 04:54:44 PM »
LukeV if God had it right in the OT,with slavery,treatment of women,why the change of heart?  Why did God go from an angry vengeful god to a fun loving caring god. If he had it right the first time,and he must have had it right to KILL everyone. Why not get it right the first time?

You are wrong. God did not have a change of heart. Do you believe that the stories in the Old testament are historical facts?

Quote
Christians are DELUSIONAL (as are all religions)
 If God has it right there is no need for religion to evolve as it has......look at the Muslim religion,no evolution,men still firmly in charge,living like its still the stone age.

Thank you for you opinion. I don't know how it help the discussion here but...hey it's yours.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #658 on: May 30, 2014, 04:58:01 PM »
So why mention the 10?

What do you mean?
If it's why did God gave his 10 commandments? It was to help us thrive.
If it's why did Jesus mention the 10 commandments? It was because they are really important.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #659 on: May 30, 2014, 05:15:37 PM »
So why mention the 10?

What do you mean?
If it's why did God gave his 10 commandments? It was to help us thrive.
If it's why did Jesus mention the 10 commandments? It was because they are really important.

But they are from the OT. How do you know they are meant to be factual, since other stuff in the OT is not? And why just those 10, when there are hundreds of commandments, rules and instructions in the OT? It can't be that god wanted to simplify things, because most people can't even keep track of the 10.

http://politicsisstupid.com/link/47145
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #660 on: May 30, 2014, 05:43:47 PM »
But they are from the OT. How do you know they are meant to be factual, since other stuff in the OT is not? And why just those 10, when there are hundreds of commandments, rules and instructions in the OT? It can't be that god wanted to simplify things, because most people can't even keep track of the 10.
They are to keep because of Jesus. Careful, it is the events (like God burning the laws into the tablets) that are not factual.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #661 on: May 30, 2014, 11:56:23 PM »
My point was when you said god healed people, you have no way to know that it was god.  This is because you have defined god as being undetectable.  So, if god really did do it, you cannot tell.
We cannot know anything unless we experience it. And even then if two people experienced the same "chilly" will not have the same response to it. Take evolution for instance we have some people who say it is real literally. Some people do not know which is the work of their imagination God or Evolution. As a human being we have the intellect which should remind us that this is our imagination at work and this is a real experience via our senses. Hopefully when we use it again we should know it. Otherwise we are a bunch of jerks.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #662 on: June 17, 2014, 09:49:52 AM »
If it appears free to you is really irrelevant.  You do not have free will if your answer is pre-determined.  If I am created and set on a path that results unquestionably  in me being a non believer, the end result is that I have no choice (no Free will only the perception of it)

No. My free will is of utmost importance for me. It is the main reason why I am Catholic and not any other religion.
Have you ever heard of alternate realities

Have I heard of alternate realities?  Yes.  I have also heard of aliens visiting the Mayans, and I have also heard the theory that god is a super being who feeds off the souls of docile unthinking cattle.  I have also heard that none of us exist and that we are only a story in the mind of a lone super being who dreams us into his reality , our perceived existence is only a dream.  I have no proof of any of them.. 

Just because someone can come up with an idea does not make it fact or even reasonable.  So it is your contention that there is an entire universe spawned from your choice in underware color today?  Another universe spawned where I took the bypass rather than come up through town.

Even in the alternate reality, I think the same applies.  So in one reality I burn in hell for choice A) and in another reality I live out eternity in heaven for choice B).  Both of those realities are fortold by god and therefore negates your free will. 


IF God knows all and created me he knew that I would act thus and conclude he was false and in reality B and therefore I had no choice.

Choose to believe you are an alien superbeing that is 5000 foot tall.  Choose to believe that the steel door in front of you is made of butter.  You can not really choose, you make obseservations, you weigh the evidence , all through your mind as programmed by life and experiences and you make a decision.  You decision based upon what you have seen brings you to a conclusion.

I can no more believe in the bible/god at this moment than you can believe you are a stick of butter.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #663 on: June 17, 2014, 10:11:23 AM »


I can no more believe in the bible/god at this moment than you can believe you are a stick of butter.

My belief is a little more flexible. I know I am not a stick of butter, I'm very very nearly certain that there isn't a Santa Claus....or the Judeo Christian God.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #664 on: June 17, 2014, 11:22:41 AM »
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.

An omnipotent creator entity that places restrictions on himself? Interesting.

So, according to your statement, your concept of "God" adheres to the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy? If yes, does he adhere to it in all cases?

Quote
If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.

Why would this necessarily be true? He has a nigh-infinite amount of atoms he can draw from throughout the entire universe to fashion a new limb from. I'm sure no one would miss him "borrowing" the necessary amount from, say, an uninhabited planet a couple million light years away.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #665 on: June 17, 2014, 11:48:49 AM »
An omnipotent creator entity that places restrictions on himself? Interesting.
So, according to your statement, your concept of "God" adheres to the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy? If yes, does he adhere to it in all cases?
No, I think that singularities exist in the universe. It's when the physical laws do not make sense anymore. (like the black holes)

Quote
Why would this necessarily be true? He has a nigh-infinite amount of atoms he can draw from throughout the entire universe to fashion a new limb from. I'm sure no one would miss him "borrowing" the necessary amount from, say, an uninhabited planet a couple million light years away.
That could be a possibility indeed. But I think that it would have consequences maybe outside of our comprehension.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #666 on: June 17, 2014, 12:20:50 PM »
Lukvance:

So please do tell how I am supposed to believe something I do not believe in?  any attempt to do so would appear to me as false.  I am a stick of butter, i am a stick of butter, I am a stick of butter... Nope i still do not believe I am a stick of butter.

God is real, god is real, god is real.  But as i say that I filter the statement through my mind and life experiences and conclude I am just saying a falsehood.