Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 8073 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #580 on: May 26, 2014, 08:00:15 PM »
And instead of just admitting that you can't provide the actual evidence you diverted the conversation to talking about "impossible standards".
I cannot provide more evidence than you could if you were to prove something of the same nature that you believe exist.

What "same nature"? I don't accept your claims. Do you not get that? All you keep doing is ASSERTING that "the immaterial" must exist (just like you just keep asserting that a God exists) ad hoc. And you have done so with no demonstrable evidence or sound reasoning to back it up whatsoever. So really, these arguments you keep making are really just diversions from the fact that you have absolutely no sound reason for believing these supernatural "immaterial" claims. Both of them are in the same boat. You haven't presented sufficient reason for thinking that either are real or actual ("God" or "the immaterial"). It's just more of your "Because I say so..." fallacies.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #581 on: May 26, 2014, 08:07:51 PM »
The point was about the value of testimonies.
Oh. They have a great value. It through them that you learn about emotions...and God

No, sorry wrong again. It simply is not the case that we only learn about emotions from testimony. We have physical demonstrable evidence of the biological mechanisms which drive human psychological states (as well as neuroscience). And emotional states are demonstrated by more than just personal testimony. You are attempting another false comparison because we do not have such evidence for an alleged invisible person who created the physical universe or magically heals people. All of the evidence demonstrates that we are a conglomeration of atoms and electro-chemical inter-workings of physical substrates. Your argument is fallacious because it attempts to go beyond that evidence by positing an assumption which we do not need in order to explain the reality of human emotion. And thus, Occam's Razor shaves off your extra assumption.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #582 on: May 26, 2014, 08:29:26 PM »
And instead of just admitting that you can't provide the actual evidence you diverted the conversation to talking about "impossible standards".
I cannot provide more evidence than you could if you were to prove something of the same nature that you believe exist.

What "same nature"? I don't accept your claims. Do you not get that? All you keep doing is ASSERTING that "the immaterial" must exist (just like you just keep asserting that a God exists) ad hoc. And you have done so with no demonstrable evidence or sound reasoning to back it up whatsoever. So really, these arguments you keep making are really just diversions from the fact that you have absolutely no sound reason for believing these supernatural "immaterial" claims. Both of them are in the same boat. You haven't presented sufficient reason for thinking that either are real or actual ("God" or "the immaterial"). It's just more of your "Because I say so..." fallacies.
I gave you as much evidence as possible. You don't want to recognize them.
I'm telling you, it's like you are asking for me to prove that 1+1= 2 without using numbers or mathematics. It's impossible.
You can't do it. I can't do it. No one can do it.
You're worth more than my time

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #583 on: May 26, 2014, 09:07:54 PM »
Interesting how the only time most Christian acknowledge that other groups are Christians is when they want the numbers to be high. According to your fastest growing religions source, the only way Christianity has more adherents than Islam is by including every single possible type of Christian (Orthodox, Anglicans, JW's, Mormons, etc.) If you only count Catholics, Islam has you beat already. You have to buddy up with the Mormons to get to #1.
Ever heard of Sunni? Shia? Sufism? Ahmadiyya? Ibadi? Quranism? They are the Catholics of Islam. Do you want to rephrase your previous assertion?

No!

to be fair I think Catholisism probably is the biggest sects in the world. It does have a 500 year advantage over islam and it had the advent of being spread by the sword all over South America.
The FUCKERS("Christians")killed somewhere in the number around 40 million aboriginals in that 500 years too!!!!
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #584 on: May 26, 2014, 09:09:52 PM »
First rebuttal. I wasn't trying to prove miracles existed.
Second rebuttal I already told you why I chose God.
I don't know what more to say...
You took up a few pages posting links to what you thought to be miracles
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #585 on: May 26, 2014, 09:58:58 PM »
You took up a few pages posting links to what you thought to be miracles
Good monkeys. Good!
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #586 on: May 27, 2014, 12:01:57 AM »
The FUCKERS("Christians")killed somewhere in the number around 40 million aboriginals in that 500 years too!!!!
People who follow God do not kill. If you love me follow my commandments. If you are going to be logical the question would be why re you claiming to be a Christian Jew or Muslim if you are not following God's commandments. But being an atheist you really do not want to ask that question do you. This is what the theists do. Put humanity back on track to commit more and more human acts. So who is whispering that there is no God in the shadows to make and create doubt in the followers??
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #587 on: May 27, 2014, 02:15:18 AM »
I would like you to read the following : "Why aren't my prayers answered?" You should find the answers to your question in there.

Fine - you watch the video below

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm

and then comment
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #588 on: May 27, 2014, 02:32:15 AM »
Fine - you watch the video below
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm
and then comment
First, the examples haven't been tested. Second. God won't act on people against their will. Third, God can act through you but not on physical objects. (beside in the rare cases of miracles) Fourth prayer, to be heard, must be said with a pure heart. Try it at home. You'll feel the difference.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #589 on: May 27, 2014, 03:14:53 AM »
Fine - you watch the video below
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm
and then comment
First, the examples haven't been tested. Second. God won't act on people against their will. Third, God can act through you but not on physical objects. (beside in the rare cases of miracles) Fourth prayer, to be heard, must be said with a pure heart. Try it at home. You'll feel the difference.

As an apologist for god you are no doing very well. Look, everyone knows that prayers seem to be either

1. Answered - something happens that more or less matches what they prayed for

OR

2. Not answered - in which case people make excuses as to why nothing happened

Now, what is quite clear is that prayer is sanctioned in the gospels and Jesus tells his disciples that whatever they as in his name the father will give it to them. The point of the video is to say that the same results happen whether one prays to a known deity or if one prays to a jug of milk. That's right - the same response.

You see when people say a prayer has been answered it can mean a number of things but usually it means that they prayed for something that was already likely to happen or at least something similar was likely to happen. It would also include cases where something unexpected happens and, because the chances of it happening were very low, it is seen as miraculous response to prayer whereas, in fact, it was still just chance[1]. To claim that a prayer has been answered we would need to show that the event was impossible to happen and show how a deity managed to pull it off, as he would have had to interfere with actual matter - a tough challenge[2].
 1. In the UK National Lottery the chances of getting all the number right is about 1 in 14 million, a frighteningly small chance, yet most weeks someone manages it. That's the sort of chances OI'm talking about.
 2. and one avoided by the Vatican who just chooses to pick unlikely events that can be related to people they want to promote to sainthood!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #590 on: May 27, 2014, 07:38:09 AM »
The FUCKERS("Christians")killed somewhere in the number around 40 million aboriginals in that 500 years too!!!!
People who follow God do not kill. If you love me follow my commandments. If you are going to be logical the question would be why re you claiming to be a Christian Jew or Muslim if you are not following God's commandments. But being an atheist you really do not want to ask that question do you. This is what the theists do. Put humanity back on track to commit more and more human acts. So who is whispering that there is no God in the shadows to make and create doubt in the followers??

People who follow god do not kill, except when told by their religious leaders that god told them to kill every last man woman and male child in a city, or when told to kill muslims by the pope, or kill people for working on sunday or being fags.  But other than that absolute moratorium on killing except for sassing mom and dad that requires killing.  The new testament seems to give a reprieve to some of that but,,, I think religious leaders can argue that both ways when it suits them.  I think some of the problem is in the work KILL  in "though shalt not kill", I have heard it claimed that the kill is really more accurately translated as "Thou Shalt not Murder", meaning you should not kill with out a good reason.  Leaders can now use this to justify killing in the name of god. 

Look at the history of Christianity in the new world.  Do you really believe that the murderous reign of terror the spanish layed down on much of the America's in the name of god was done by people who did not think they were following god?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #591 on: May 27, 2014, 08:07:21 AM »
If we are not careful we are getting to the 'One True Christiantm' argument. What is being argued is that those who have done killing were not true Christians because they  killed. This, of course, ignores the fact that it is highly probable that those who went on Crusades really thought they were doing the work of god. What those who took part wrote down certainly suggests this.

So we have a problem of how we define a Christian - is it

a. Some who follows all the rules of Christianity ( and hence does not kill people, war excepted)

OR

b. Someone who really believes his religion, really trusts its leader the pope, and follows the orders of the pope?

For the Crusades, I argue that the latter definition works best with the facts. We could argue that the actual fighters ought to have had better morals and refused to fight, but many were required by their lords to fight and had no choice. We also have to remember that morals were quite a bit different from today - slavery was fine with the church for example. Life was tough and short for most people and it is not fair to impose our morals on people who lived nearly 1,000 years ago.

However, the blame does fall on the popes of the day. They - leaders of the entire Western church and Christ's vicar- they should have known better and they should have known that killing was just plain wrong. If there was ever a group who saw worldly power as more important that keeping god's commandments, it was those popes.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #592 on: May 27, 2014, 09:36:53 AM »
Fine - you watch the video below
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm
and then comment
First, the examples haven't been tested. Second. God won't act on people against their will. Third, God can act through you but not on physical objects. (beside in the rare cases of miracles) Fourth prayer, to be heard, must be said with a pure heart. Try it at home. You'll feel the difference.

God already knows-- before we are even born: who will fall for the wrong religions, who will have the wrong kind of "will", who will need physical evidence of his existence, and who will be receptive to him based on reported miracles and testimony. The lucky winners!

So the last group are the ones that god favors, and the rest are just toast. Didn't  god know that ahead of time? If he is not going to waste his time saving people "against their will", why make all those people in the first place?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #593 on: May 27, 2014, 10:51:52 AM »
It gets worse, though, Nogodsforme!

Luk, think of all the souls your god implants into zygotes when well over 50% never even implant and are washed, unknown, down the loo. This god of your is so remarkably wasteful with souls in zygotes, all the children he lets die without ever knowing him and, of course, all the one mentioned above by Nogodsforme.

As is pointed out, god knows already, before a child is born what its fate will be and he knows who won't accept him based on the evidence yet he condemns them nontheless. He would only have to give a little help to the world to believe but, apparently, on a few generations ever got that. Call that moral?
 ,
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #594 on: May 27, 2014, 11:15:47 AM »
apparently, on a few generations ever got that.

And all within a limited geographical area, too.

I guess "God" prefers to play to (relatively) small audiences.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #595 on: May 27, 2014, 11:58:08 AM »
As an apologist for god you are no doing very well. Look, everyone knows that prayers seem to be either
1. Answered - something happens that more or less matches what they prayed for
OR
2. Not answered - in which case people make excuses as to why nothing happened
Isn't that the case with everything in the world? Not just prayer?

Quote
Now, what is quite clear is that prayer is sanctioned in the gospels and Jesus tells his disciples that whatever they as in his name the father will give it to them.
Yep!
Quote
The point of the video is to say that the same results happen whether one prays to a known deity or if one prays to a jug of milk. That's right - the same response.
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.
Quote
You see when people say a prayer has been answered it can mean a number of things but usually it means that they prayed for something that was already likely to happen or at least something similar was likely to happen.
Not in my case. Maybe in your case?
Quote
To claim that a prayer has been answered we would need to show that the event was impossible to happen and show how a deity managed to pull it off, as he would have had to interfere with actual matter - a tough challenge[1].
 1. and one avoided by the Vatican who just chooses to pick unlikely events that can be related to people they want to promote to sainthood!
You have some miracles that are not related to humans health.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #596 on: May 27, 2014, 12:12:56 PM »
God already knows-- before we are even born: who will fall for the wrong religions, who will have the wrong kind of "will", who will need physical evidence of his existence, and who will be receptive to him based on reported miracles and testimony. The lucky winners!

So the last group are the ones that god favors, and the rest are just toast. Didn't  god know that ahead of time? If he is not going to waste his time saving people "against their will", why make all those people in the first place?
Yes, God knows all realities. But you don't know! You are free to chose him or not.
God does not favors any group...beside us humans (as opposed to animals, plants and rocks)
You're worth more than my time

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #597 on: May 27, 2014, 12:17:08 PM »
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.

Perhaps a little more explanation of your point of view would help.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #598 on: May 27, 2014, 12:39:34 PM »
God already knows-- before we are even born: who will fall for the wrong religions, who will have the wrong kind of "will", who will need physical evidence of his existence, and who will be receptive to him based on reported miracles and testimony. The lucky winners!

So the last group are the ones that god favors, and the rest are just toast. Didn't  god know that ahead of time? If he is not going to waste his time saving people "against their will", why make all those people in the first place?
Yes, God knows all realities. But you don't know! You are free to chose him or not.
God does not favors any group...beside us humans (as opposed to animals, plants and rocks)

If it appears free to you is really irrelevant.  You do not have free will if your answer is pre-determined.  If I am created and set on a path that results unquestionably  in me being a non believer, the end result is that I have no choice (no Free will only the perception of it)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #599 on: May 27, 2014, 01:11:49 PM »
If it appears free to you is really irrelevant.  You do not have free will if your answer is pre-determined.  If I am created and set on a path that results unquestionably  in me being a non believer, the end result is that I have no choice (no Free will only the perception of it)

No. My free will is of utmost importance for me. It is the main reason why I am Catholic and not any other religion.
Have you ever heard of alternate realities?
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.

Perhaps a little more explanation of your point of view would help.
The same results does NOT happen whether one prays to God (faithfully) or if one prays to a jug of milk (faithfully)
You're worth more than my time

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #600 on: May 27, 2014, 01:27:42 PM »
If it appears free to you is really irrelevant.  You do not have free will if your answer is pre-determined.  If I am created and set on a path that results unquestionably  in me being a non believer, the end result is that I have no choice (no Free will only the perception of it)

No. My free will is of utmost importance for me. It is the main reason why I am Catholic and not any other religion.
Have you ever heard of alternate realities

Have I heard of alternate realities?  Yes.  I have also heard of aliens visiting the Mayans, and I have also heard the theory that god is a super being who feeds off the souls of docile unthinking cattle.  I have also heard that none of us exist and that we are only a story in the mind of a lone super being who dreams us into his reality , our perceived existence is only a dream.  I have no proof of any of them.. 

Just because someone can come up with an idea does not make it fact or even reasonable.  So it is your contention that there is an entire universe spawned from your choice in underware color today?  Another universe spawned where I took the bypass rather than come up through town.

Even in the alternate reality, I think the same applies.  So in one reality I burn in hell for choice A) and in another reality I live out eternity in heaven for choice B).  Both of those realities are fortold by god and therefore negates your free will. 


IF God knows all and created me he knew that I would act thus and conclude he was false and in reality B and therefore I had no choice.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #601 on: May 27, 2014, 01:35:27 PM »
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.

Perhaps a little more explanation of your point of view would help.
The same results does NOT happen whether one prays to God (faithfully) or if one prays to a jug of milk (faithfully)

Well, if you say so. Show us this is so. Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.

So, how about it?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #602 on: May 27, 2014, 01:48:04 PM »
Well, if you say so. Show us this is so. Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.

So, how about it?

He still needs to pray to his concept of "God" to get my telephone number... brb. Phone's ringing.










Wrong number. :angel:
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The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #603 on: May 27, 2014, 04:06:53 PM »
IF God knows all and created me he knew that I would act thus and conclude he was false and in reality B and therefore I had no choice.
Why? He knew you had a choice. A) I believe B) I don't believe. You can chose either. Even now! What prevent you to make the choice freely?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #604 on: May 27, 2014, 04:11:29 PM »
Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.
So, how about it?
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
You're worth more than my time

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #605 on: May 27, 2014, 04:30:36 PM »
Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.
So, how about it?
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?

Not in slightest, sorry. Your first statement, "God don't force his will into us" is something for which you have  nothing to go on except that someone made it up to account for problems with god not showing up.

Secondly, what are you saying? You are saying that you could not ask god to heal children with cancer because "I cannot force my will unto others using prayer." I am more or less speechless! Really I am! I just don't know what to say. I can't imagine many people in this entire world who would do anything they had in their power to help heal children with cancer and yet you say you can't do it! really? the children would only know they got better and the parents would only know that too, They would not know the cause of the healing which could arise, in each case, from natural processes - remissions in the medical terminology. Your god would not get into trouble for stopping free will and neither would you.

So, I can only think of a couple of reasons you won't try this -

1. Because you are, really cold hearted and callous towards children which I hope is not the case

OR

2. You know such a prayer won't work because you think prayer is really only for helping with thoughts and not for actual materiel things and yet your church thinks god heals people...

Of course, many of the parents and relatives of children with cancer will have been praying hard since the diagnosis and, in most cases, the result will be the child dies or the doctors manage to cure the disease through science. You could help these people with your prayers. Can you really refuse?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #606 on: May 27, 2014, 06:31:56 PM »
Your first statement, "God don't force his will into us" is something for which you have nothing to go on except that someone made it up to account for problems with god not showing up.
It is way more than you will ever have against it.

Quote
Secondly, what are you saying? You are saying that you could not ask god to heal children with cancer because "I cannot force my will unto others using prayer." I am more or less speechless! Really I am! I just don't know what to say.
Then don't say anything and move on.
Quote
you say you can't do it! really?
Yes, really.
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the children would only know they got better and the parents would only know that too, They would not know the cause of the healing which could arise, in each case, from natural processes - remissions in the medical terminology. Your god would not get into trouble for stopping free will and neither would you.
and the kid will grow up to be Hitler. Nice eh?
Hypothetical cases. Is that all you have? I have real cases that really happen in real life and kids who were cured of cancer because of God...real kids.

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So, I can only think of a couple of reasons you won't try this -
Really? Think more. Anyway the reason have already be given why I won't try it. If you want to invent other reasons, that's your problem. But they are just inventions, nothing real.

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You could help these people with your prayers. Can you really refuse?
Hey, you know what, I am helping them with my prayer. But not the way you want it. The only way I can.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #607 on: May 27, 2014, 06:42:14 PM »
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
If people can't understand this phrase...I don't know, ask me more question about it. I might be able to enlighten you. I know my English isn't that good but it is a pretty easy phrase to understand.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Nam

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #608 on: May 27, 2014, 08:41:21 PM »
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
If people can't understand this phrase...I don't know, ask me more question about it. I might be able to enlighten you. I know my English isn't that good but it is a pretty easy phrase to understand.

"doesn't" not "don't", moron.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.