Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 8178 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #348 on: May 18, 2014, 12:49:56 AM »
I'm also interested in why it's not a miracle that people DONT have cancer. Who gave cancer sufferers cancer in the first place?

It's a bit like Abe being told to sacrifice his son, and then being told: no it's all a joke.

(But wait a minute Abe is not a real person, because he is in the Old Testament... unless it's proven that he was a real person, and then the event actually happened.)
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #349 on: May 18, 2014, 12:56:55 AM »
I'm also interested in why it's not a miracle that people DONT have cancer. Who gave cancer sufferers cancer in the first place?

It's a bit like Abe being told to sacrifice his son, and then being told: no it's all a joke.

(But wait a minute Abe is not a real person, because he is in the Old Testament... unless it's proven that he was a real person, and then the event actually happened.)

The funnier part is that if Mr. Lukboy cannot rationally distinguish a miracle from a non-miracle (as he said elsewhere that God is "everything" and thus all must be miracle) then the term miracle doesn't have any meaning either. Again, it's just a placeholder for gullibility and ignorance.

"I can't explain how the cancer went away. So God did it!" - textbook argument from ignorance fallacy.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #350 on: May 18, 2014, 01:03:18 AM »
Is winning the lottery a miracle?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #351 on: May 18, 2014, 01:15:40 AM »
there is no way in your world of superstition to determine if the recovery was due to the cat shatting on the mat, prayer or a zillion other events ....is there luk.
You are right. Like there is no way to really know if my mother really loves me or if she is pressurized by standards in society to love me or that the cat sitting on the mat made me win the lottery last Sunday. Many things in our world are like that, you just have to live with it and grow up a little.
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Curious do you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible?
What do you mean by literal? I believe that the only event I'm sure of took place are those in the Gospel. I believe that Noah's flood story is not an actual fact. Does that answer your question?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #352 on: May 18, 2014, 01:19:56 AM »
Is winning the lottery a miracle?
It depends. Did you pray God before winning?  Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature? If so, yes it can be called a miracle.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #353 on: May 18, 2014, 01:25:34 AM »
So how do you go from there is no way to know to god did it?

You don't have to just live with it. if you are a slave then you have to live with what your master desires. if you ate free you can do more than just live with it.  sounds like YOU need to grow up.


what gives you the right to say the flood is not true but other bits are?
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #354 on: May 18, 2014, 01:26:45 AM »
Is winning the lottery a miracle?
It depends. Did you pray God before winning?  Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature? If so, yes it can be called a miracle.

How does it matter, whatsoever, if a person prays (or poops) before a specific rare event occurs? Again, you do know that correlation does not equal causation, don't you? And how exactly can you make the determination that an event cannot be "ascribable to human power or the laws of nature"??
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #355 on: May 18, 2014, 01:33:23 AM »
You must not read my posts very carefully. I asked you for demonstrable evidence of the "God" causing the cancer to go away, not of the cancer going away. If I wake up in the morning and my car is missing I could say Santa Claus stole it, but there would need to be actual demonstrable evidence of such a claim. That is what you need to present.

You forgot again the part when she prayed God, but that's ok.
The kind of evidence you ask for do not exist outside testimony. Let me refresh your memory (You must not read my posts very carefully) :
You told me to prove that miracle exist without using the testimony of others. Let me enlighten you. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.
[...]
And the truth is you know it is impossible without using testimonies that's why you never backed up your claims about Luck. You cannot prove that luck exist without testimonies.
Stop being stubborn and move on.

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Whether such claims effect you or not is entirely irrelevant to the question.
Maybe for you but for me it is the principal reason why I would believe others testimony or not.
For example :
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman. I don't know you, it doesn't impact me. I believe you.
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman and that I should pray him. I does impact me, I don't believe you.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #356 on: May 18, 2014, 01:34:14 AM »
I get it, if you pray and win the lottery its a miracle if you don't pray and win its not a miracle if you don't pray and do win its not a miracle if you pray not to win and you win its not a miracle if you don't pray and don't win its.....?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #357 on: May 18, 2014, 01:40:22 AM »
How does it matter, whatsoever, if a person prays (or poops) before a specific rare event occurs?

I matters in the sense that the result might be accredited to prayer (or poop) depending on the person.

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Again, you do know that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?
Yes (again)
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And how exactly can you make the determination that an event cannot be "ascribable to human power or the laws of nature"??
It depends on each situation.
Me floating in the air is not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.
Me floating in the air inside an indoor skydiving machine is ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #358 on: May 18, 2014, 01:42:39 AM »
So basically if suits you its a miracle if it doesn't its not.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #359 on: May 18, 2014, 01:43:23 AM »
I get it, if you pray and win the lottery its a miracle if you don't pray and win its not a miracle if you don't pray and do win its not a miracle if you pray not to win and you win its not a miracle if you don't pray and don't win its.....?
...ok, try again later. :)
Don't forget that very important part : Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #360 on: May 18, 2014, 01:46:27 AM »
So basically if suits you its a miracle if it doesn't its not.
Don't forget that very important part : Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature?
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #361 on: May 18, 2014, 01:47:32 AM »
People that win the lottery and pray is not ascribable to natural laws but winning and not praying is. ...can you comment on the rest of my post as well please.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #362 on: May 18, 2014, 01:49:11 AM »
Winning the lottery ascibable or not??

Yes or no.
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #363 on: May 18, 2014, 01:51:55 AM »
You forgot again the part when she prayed God, but that's ok.
The kind of evidence you ask for do not exist outside testimony. Let me refresh your memory (You must not read my posts very carefully) :

I don't care if someone "prayed", or pooped, or farted, or punched someone in the face. Correlation does not equal causation. So you are arguing irrationally again. This is called the Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc fallacy. FAIL.

Just because one event comes after another event, does not mean (in any way) that the first event caused the second event. You should know that.


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Whether such claims effect you or not is entirely irrelevant to the question.
Maybe for you but for me it is the principal reason why I would believe others testimony or not.
For example :
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman. I don't know you, it doesn't impact me. I believe you.
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman and that I should pray him. I does impact me, I don't believe you.

You just contradicted yourself. You admitted that if I told you I was cured by Para-Brahman you would not know (which means you would be agnostic about it and/or undecided). And then you turned right around and said you would believe that I was cured by the healer. That is irrational (not surprising with you). Second, and once again, it doesn't matter whatsoever if something impacts you, because a claim is either true or false regardless of it's impact on someone. So impact is irrelevant to the subject. You either accept someones testimony as true (i.e. - that it actually happened) or you do not.

You are practicing more intellectual hypocrisy by trying to insert "impact" as a caveat to believing whether something is true, because the only way you could actually show that you truly believe whether (for example) I was healed by Para-Brahman would be to actually act on that belief in accordance with it. Just saying you believe something doesn't mean that you actually do. Talk is cheap.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #364 on: May 18, 2014, 02:02:31 AM »
How does it matter, whatsoever, if a person prays (or poops) before a specific rare event occurs?

I matters in the sense that the result might be accredited to prayer (or poop) depending on the person.

So then demonstrating what causes specific events in the world is merely a matter of opinion for you? One persons opinion is just as good as any other (say in a murder case, a rape case, or what drugs are bad for our health)?


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Again, you do know that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?
Yes (again)

If you admit that correlation does not equal causation then stop using that fallacy in arguing that cancer going away was caused by a "God" (whatever that means). Ok?

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And how exactly can you make the determination that an event cannot be "ascribable to human power or the laws of nature"??


It depends on each situation.
Me floating in the air is not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.
Me floating in the air inside an indoor skydiving machine is ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.

This is an argument from incredulity fallacy. Have you floated in the air before? Even if you did, and you didn't have an explanation for it, this wouldn't in any way make your assertion that, "God did it" valid. It would still be a logically fallacious argument from ignorance/incredulity because you are attempting to explain one thing that you cannot explain by another thing that you cannot explain (aka - a mystery by a another mystery). FAIL.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #365 on: May 18, 2014, 02:12:27 AM »
So then demonstrating what causes specific events in the world is merely a matter of opinion for you?
Events that cannot be ascribable to human power or the laws of nature, yes.
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One persons opinion is just as good as any other (say in a murder case, a rape case, or what drugs are bad for our health)?
No.
Quote
If you admit that correlation does not equal causation then stop using that fallacy in arguing that cancer going away was caused by a "God" (whatever that means). Ok?
Ok. (she claimed it anyway and I believed her)
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #366 on: May 18, 2014, 02:20:15 AM »
So then demonstrating what causes specific events in the world is merely a matter of opinion for you?
Events that cannot be ascribable to human power or the laws of nature, yes.


This is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You haven't even begun to demonstrate how you can determine that a specific even cannot be ascribed to human power or the laws of nature. Like your other magic claims, it's just another one of your assumptions. The ancients used to attempt this same line of reasoning with lightening. "Zeus did it!" It failed for them and it fails for you for the same reason. It is irrational. So stop using it. Just because you personally do not have an explanation for something does not mean that there is not, or cannot, be one within the natural world. Admit when you are ignorant of the cause of an event.


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One persons opinion is just as good as any other (say in a murder case, a rape case, or what drugs are bad for our health)?
No.
Quote
If you admit that correlation does not equal causation then stop using that fallacy in arguing that cancer going away was caused by a "God" (whatever that means). Ok?
Ok. (she claimed it anyway and I believed her)

I don't care what "she claimed" or that you believed her. Those are completely aside from the point here. The point is, you simply have no rational grounds from drawing causation from a mere correlation. You do not know that "God" (whatever that means) caused a cancer to go into remission. And you are using an irrational argument (as I noted before, Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc) to prop up your belief in it. So the very foundation of your belief is irrational.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 02:28:40 AM by median »
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #367 on: May 18, 2014, 02:24:46 AM »
Luk winning lottery ascribable or not??
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #368 on: May 18, 2014, 02:29:37 AM »
Luk winning lottery ascribable or not??
What do you mean? Could you stop using the forum like a chat room?
Did you mean : If I win the lottery would that be a miracle? Noooo but I'd love to!
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #369 on: May 18, 2014, 02:32:31 AM »
I mean under your definition is winning the lottery a natural event.

how am i using this as a chat room?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #370 on: May 18, 2014, 02:39:12 AM »
I mean under your definition is winning the lottery a natural event.
how am i using this as a chat room?
Small messages. Not developing the point you wish to make. One line jokes.
I don't know if winning the lottery is a natural event. Or if its ascribable to human power. Why do you ask?
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #371 on: May 18, 2014, 02:42:58 AM »
I mean under your definition is winning the lottery a natural event.
how am i using this as a chat room?
Small messages. Not developing the point you wish to make. One line jokes.
I don't know if winning the lottery is a natural event. Or if its ascribable to human power. Why do you ask?

Because the bigger question is how you can differentiate what you call a "miracle" from a rare or unexplained event that is NOT a miracle.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #372 on: May 18, 2014, 02:45:55 AM »
He gets the bigger point, he is throwing up dust until he can figure a way around it or he can change the subject.

so luk you concede you don't know?
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #373 on: May 18, 2014, 02:49:12 AM »
He gets the bigger point, he is throwing up dust until he can figure a way around it or he can change the subject.

The burden of proof is on you, to prove that Luk knows that he has lost the argument.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline eh!

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #374 on: May 18, 2014, 03:05:28 AM »
 
I don't know if winning the lottery is a natural event. Or if its ascribable to human power. Why do you ask?
[/quote]


Seems you have little credibility to determine miracle from not miracle if you don't know the answer to ^
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:08:52 AM by eh! »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #375 on: May 18, 2014, 11:58:59 AM »
He gets the bigger point, he is throwing up dust until he can figure a way around it or he can change the subject.
so luk you concede you don't know?
Concede what?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #376 on: May 18, 2014, 12:04:32 PM »
how you can differentiate what you call a "miracle" from a rare or unexplained event that is NOT a miracle.
The prayers makes the difference. If I pray God before the event it is different than if I don't. Plus you have what we call the "fruits" from the miracle. It is like a ripple effect of good that comes from the persons concerned by the miracle. But this is for another discussion.
Did you guys had more question on Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Or are the answers I gave you, enough?
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