Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 8077 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #174 on: May 14, 2014, 09:09:28 AM »
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about.
I would describe it as a very natural reaction after being presented with someone as terminally stubborn as yourself. Your question (whatever it is) does not require an answer.

If I say to you, "Paint dries because the solvent evaporates off leaving behind a residue." You cannot then say, "That is not proof that paint dries." and then claim that paint never dries.

Luck is a description of a set of circumstances and has no existence of itself. You have to accept that. The English language is such that we do say, (see Magicmiles's post above) "You were lucky." but this does not make "luck" a real thing.

Nobody but you seems to believe in magical forces. I think you should explain why you do.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #175 on: May 14, 2014, 10:08:33 AM »
In my experience there is no such thing as luck.

You would not describe it as lucky if you were driving down the road and a 100 year oak tree fell where your car had been 1 second before? 

No amount of preparation helped you avoid the impact, no skill, you just were not hit because you were one second ahead of schedule.

I would say that was luck, just dumb luck.

Graybeard,

You do not believe the word that describes coincidental good fortune?  I do not see luck as there even being a question as to luck's existence.  Luck is a word that describes:

2. good fortune; advantage or success, considered as the result of chance: He had no luck finding work. 
3. a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person: She's had nothing but bad luck all year.

or are you just saying that there are no magical forces behind it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 10:16:27 AM by epidemic »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #176 on: May 14, 2014, 10:25:50 AM »
And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - asshole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

Median,

Dial it back a notch.  I understand these discussions are frustrating.  But let's please remember than name calling does not make a good argument. 

thanks


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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #177 on: May 14, 2014, 12:17:33 PM »
I think you are implying that luck is somehow guided by some hand and dealt out to certain people at certain moments.
No. That is not what I'm implying.
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I guess I would have to ask luk, how is luck different than the random convergence of coincidence and desired outcome?
For me, no diference. I thank you for your answers.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #178 on: May 14, 2014, 12:20:39 PM »
Luck is a description of a set of circumstances and has no existence of itself. You have to accept that. The English language is such that we do say, (see Magicmiles's post above) "You were lucky." but this does not make "luck" a real thing.
Then, what would make "luck" a "real thing"?

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Nobody but you seems to believe in magical forces. I think you should explain why you do.
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God. To explain why I believe in God...well this is not the place is it?
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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #179 on: May 14, 2014, 12:38:48 PM »
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God. To explain why I believe in God...well this is not the place is it?

Odd. I could never tell the difference between preforming a magic ritual or casting a spell from calling on the powers of Jehovah to do your bidding. Either way you are asking to borrow some divine power to accomplish a task you feel is worthy of the ritual, prayer, or incantation.

What is it that separates magic from prayer anyway?

Now I have the McDonalds song stuck in my head. "Do you believe in magic, and I hope you do, You will always have a friend wearing big red shoes."

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #180 on: May 14, 2014, 12:55:41 PM »
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God.

Your second sentence negates the first.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #181 on: May 14, 2014, 02:19:39 PM »
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God.
Your second sentence negates the first.
Ok...i'm listening. What could possibly prove that?
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #182 on: May 14, 2014, 02:40:38 PM »
Luk just likes the attention, most xtians would just call him a nut-job and ignore him. here people spend the the time and luk YOU ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN MY TIME..
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #183 on: May 14, 2014, 02:46:55 PM »
Luk just likes the attention, most xtians would just call him a nut-job and ignore him. here people spend the the time and luk YOU ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN MY TIME..
Said the guy who took his time to write this un-useful comment.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #184 on: May 14, 2014, 03:06:54 PM »
Ok...i'm listening. What could possibly prove that?

It would be a logical proof, would it not?
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #185 on: May 14, 2014, 03:11:06 PM »
Luk my responses to you have been motivated by pity.  everyone deserves respect but yr taking advantage. i am just more xtian than xtians.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #186 on: May 14, 2014, 03:12:53 PM »
Lukvance, why are you now asking about luck, when you have not adequately addressed the previous questions? Can you explain what is the point of that line of discussion before we waste a lot more time with it? Are you going to dance around like before and redefine terms until you get a description of "luck" that you can attribute to your god at work? Or what?

Please show that I am mistaken about you, and give us something real and not just pulled out of your a$$. I don't want to give up on you yet, because although you are a real pain in the tuckus, you do not seem like too bad of a guy-- for a theist.

If your past performance is indicative of your future behavior, we will not get any clear or informative answers from you.

PS I am not only female; I am the resident black dreadlocked commie mommy here at WWGHA.  :-*
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #187 on: May 14, 2014, 04:41:14 PM »
Lukvance, why are you now asking about luck, when you have not adequately addressed the previous questions? Can you explain what is the point of that line of discussion before we waste a lot more time with it? Are you going to dance around like before and redefine terms until you get a description of "luck" that you can attribute to your god at work? Or what?

Please show that I am mistaken about you, and give us something real and not just pulled out of your a$$. I don't want to give up on you yet, because although you are a real pain in the tuckus, you do not seem like too bad of a guy-- for a theist.

If your past performance is indicative of your future behavior, we will not get any clear or informative answers from you.

PS I am not only female; I am the resident black dreadlocked commie mommy here at WWGHA.  :-*
I am asking about luck because as you said so correctly yourself I "did not addressed the previous question" in a way it would please you. So I though , what is their way? So I asked the question then asked to back it up so I can get a feeling of what kind of backing up you are expecting from me.
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #188 on: May 14, 2014, 04:51:52 PM »
Its not about pleasing anyone. it has more to do with making sense which you have not done.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #189 on: May 14, 2014, 05:34:27 PM »
Resurrection of the dead seems to be one of those.
"Thou shalt not kill"
Ten plagues of Egypt.

Just a few possible examples.
What here is your belief and what is the truth. Or do you believe everything you read about God. At the end of the day it is you that have to make a judgement on truth and falsehood. What resonates true to you.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #190 on: May 14, 2014, 05:55:53 PM »
Lukvance, you refer to "their way" as if there is a special atheist way of describing reality and backing up claims. We do not want anything special from you. We want the same level of clear, basic explanation you would expect if you were ordering a meal at a restaurant, buying a pair of shoes or choosing a movie to watch.

When you go to see a movie or select a video, you expect that the previews, critical reviews, description of the plot, actors, etc. will be an accurate reflection of what the movie will show. You would not be pleased to pay money for a movie described everywhere as an sci-fi action film about superheroes, and get a foreign language costume drama set in 18th century France instead. That is the equivalent of what you are giving us.

You say you will give us one thing (like explain how love exists where there are no living beings, for example) and instead you give us a lot of different things, none of which are what you said you would do. And then you act as though we are being unreasonable when we keep asking you to do what you said you would.

Do you act like this at home, work or school? I cannot imagine life would go well for you if you do.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #191 on: May 14, 2014, 06:58:42 PM »
you give us a lot of different things
These are the things I would want to know before buying the product. Your standard is different from mine. I'm trying to learn yours.
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #192 on: May 14, 2014, 07:06:37 PM »

I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.

This is just another one of your irrational attempts at argumentation (this time the equivocation fallacy). I didn't ask you if there were things that people "call" miracles. I asked you to demonstrate your claim that "miracles occur". We're talking about actually demonstrating that a violation of the laws of known physics actually took place not what people can just CLAIM! Are you even capable of understanding the difference or are you really just that gullible to take someone else' word for it when claims to the supernatural or miraculous are made? "Well, they claimed it was a miracle" is not a demonstration that a miracle actually occurred. I'm sorry that your brain missed it but it's not surprising why.

Again, you need more than just hear-say (which is all you just provided here). The burden is still yours. 

As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Your "testimony" is not sufficient (just as a Muslim "testimony" or Mormon "testimony" would not be sufficient for you). You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here). Again, you are practicing hypocrisy and a double standard because you wouldn't accept these claims from religions that you think are false - all the while you are desperately trying to obfuscate and shift away the burden of proof. It's not working.

The burden still lies upon you to actually demonstrate your claims (not just make more claims, make hear-say, or give anecdote). For the 100th time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As it stands right now, it seems you don't even have ordinary evidence - let alone the mountains of it you would need for it to be overwhelming.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:10:00 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #193 on: May 14, 2014, 07:22:13 PM »
I am asking about luck because as you said so correctly yourself I "did not addressed the previous question" in a way it would please you. So I though , what is their way? So I asked the question then asked to back it up so I can get a feeling of what kind of backing up you are expecting from me.

I already told you what kind of backing up was expected of you (quite specifically), and apparently you completely ignored it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #194 on: May 14, 2014, 07:27:13 PM »
you give us a lot of different things
These are the things I would want to know before buying the product. Your standard is different from mine. I'm trying to learn yours.

I don't buy this for a second. Your standard is likely the same as ours (generally speaking)... except for one case: your assumed theology. In all other matters you likely practice healthy skepticism and would require ample amounts of evidence to justify extraordinary claims (such as if a salesman was at the door making similar type supernatural claims about a product). It's a double standard you are practicing - mixed with confirmation bias.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #195 on: May 14, 2014, 07:27:30 PM »

I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.

This is just another one of your irrational attempts at argumentation (this time the equivocation fallacy). I didn't ask you if there were things that people "call" miracles. I asked you to demonstrate your claim that "miracles occur". We're talking about actually demonstrating that a violation of the laws of known physics actually took place not what people can just CLAIM! Are you even capable of understanding the difference or are you really just that gullible to take someone else' word for it when claims to the supernatural or miraculous are made? "Well, they claimed it was a miracle" is not a demonstration that a miracle actually occurred. I'm sorry that your brain missed it but it's not surprising why.

Again, you need more than just hear-say (which is all you just provided here). The burden is still yours. 

As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Your "testimony" is not sufficient (just as a Muslim "testimony" or Mormon "testimony" would not be sufficient for you). You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here). Again, you are practicing hypocrisy and a double standard because you wouldn't accept these claims from religions that you think are false - all the while you are desperately trying to obfuscate and shift away the burden of proof. It's not working.

The burden still lies upon you to actually demonstrate your claims (not just make more claims, make hear-say, or give anecdote). For the 100th time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As it stands right now, it seems you don't even have ordinary evidence - let alone the mountains of it you would need for it to be overwhelming.
Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #196 on: May 14, 2014, 08:09:28 PM »
Now your just ignoring others and repeating yourself.


Spambot??
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #197 on: May 14, 2014, 08:12:01 PM »
Now your just ignoring others and repeating yourself.
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Aren't you a helpful fella. Look at you! :)
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #198 on: May 14, 2014, 08:21:33 PM »
Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.

This completely misses the point. You haven't provided any actual evidence.

-"Because they said it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is hear-say.
-"Because something strange happened and I can't explain it. So it's a miracle" is not evidence. It is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
-"Because I had an experience and I say it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is unreliable anecdote.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 08:24:31 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #199 on: May 14, 2014, 08:29:35 PM »
Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.
This completely misses the point. You haven't provided any actual evidence.
-"Because they said it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is hear-say.
-"Because something strange happened and I can't explain it. So it's a miracle" is not evidence. It is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
-"Because I had an experience and I say it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is unreliable anecdote.
I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #200 on: May 14, 2014, 08:45:28 PM »
If somebody saw a hand reach down from above with a sign saying "hey there! This is God", would that be a miracle? Or does it need to be witnessed by hundreds of people? Do you need to be able to demonstrate something for it to have happened?

Is the person that saw the giant hand from above justified in worshipping God from that point onwards based on what he saw? Or would he only be justified in doing so if hundreds of others saw what occurred?
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #201 on: May 14, 2014, 09:43:02 PM »
I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?

It is completely and wholly irrelevant as to whether or not I accept someone's definition of "luck". For one, because merely providing a definition for something (like one could for Santa Claus) does not in any way, shape, or form make said thing actual or real. And second, what most people refer to as luck (i.e. - "that which happens") is not a supernatural claim!!

Must we repeat ourselves a million times? You are making extraordinary claims and as such your extraordinary claims require far more evidence than hear-say, anecdote, or arguments from ignorance or incredulity. Is this really that difficult for you to grasp? Again, if a Muslim or Mormon started giving you the kinds of replies you keep attempting here you would likely reject such assertions (rightly), and that is exactly what you are (and will continue) to experience here.


No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #202 on: May 14, 2014, 09:48:57 PM »
I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?

It is completely and wholly irrelevant as to whether or not I accept someone's definition of "luck". For one, because merely providing a definition for something (like one could for Santa Claus) does not in any way, shape, or form make said thing actual or real. And second, what most people refer to as luck (i.e. - "that which happens") is not a supernatural claim!!
Must we repeat ourselves a million times? You are making extraordinary claims and as such your extraordinary claims require far more evidence than hear-say, anecdote, or arguments from ignorance or incredulity. Is this really that difficult for you to grasp? Again, if a Muslim or Mormon started giving you the kinds of replies you keep attempting here you would likely reject such assertions (rightly), and that is exactly what you are (and will continue) to experience here.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume
I am talking about the evidence that she brought. Where they enough? or do you feel that they are not evidence and that she should bring more to prove her claim?

Be patient, we are almost there.
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