Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 8345 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2014, 03:51:02 PM »
I will ask you to, instead of assuming thing about me like " think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime smiles upon us and acts in our favour"
I can only assume that your excellent command of English deserted you
Quote
or that "You have missed the point"
Which you have
Quote
or "In your theology, whether or not it is "bad" is irrelevant" Ask questions...do not draw conclusions on the little you know about my views...
That is not a “view” it is a conclusion from what you wrote. You may wish to give us your views[1]
Quote
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky)
You misunderstand. My point is people say they are lucky. It is a question of language. People use the word “luck” and its derivatives but they should not think that there is an actual thing called “luck”.

“Luck” is a description. It is similar to “blue” -> it does not have an existence other than as a convenient description.

I think I have demonstrated that “luck” of itself, does not exist.
Quote
Do you feel that your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Yes, no or other?
I am content that a reasonably intelligent person would be able to follow my explanation and that my explanation is accurate.

The thing is, I do not need to “prove” anything. I have explained something to you. At this point, the only thing you can say is, “I don’t understand.” (or you could show that my logic is wrong.)

As proof that I do not need to prove anything, the point has been laid out by Pianodwarf, a senior WWGHA member:

It's a burden of proof issue.  […] the one claiming that [something exists] […] bears a greater burden of proof than the [denier] because the one claiming [something exists] is making a claim that extends ontology, and such claims always carry a greater burden of proof than claims that an ontological extension does not exist. – Pianodwarf

You claim there is such a thing as luck: prove it, and define what it is and its nature.

You are good at answering questions with questions but you seem incapable of telling us what your views are. Do you have views? What are they? How do you rationalise them?

 1. If you have any
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #146 on: May 13, 2014, 04:08:48 PM »
I will ask you to, instead of assuming thing about me like " think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime smiles upon us and acts in our favour"
I can only assume that your excellent command of English deserted you
Quote
or that "You have missed the point"
Which you have
Quote
or "In your theology, whether or not it is "bad" is irrelevant" Ask questions...do not draw conclusions on the little you know about my views...
That is not a “view” it is a conclusion from what you wrote. You may wish to give us your views[1]
Quote
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky)
You misunderstand. My point is people say they are lucky. It is a question of language. People use the word “luck” and its derivatives but they should not think that there is an actual thing called “luck”.

“Luck” is a description. It is similar to “blue” -> it does not have an existence other than as a convenient description.

I think I have demonstrated that “luck” of itself, does not exist.
Quote
Do you feel that your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Yes, no or other?
I am content that a reasonably intelligent person would be able to follow my explanation and that my explanation is accurate.

The thing is, I do not need to “prove” anything. I have explained something to you. At this point, the only thing you can say is, “I don’t understand.” (or you could show that my logic is wrong.)

As proof that I do not need to prove anything, the point has been laid out by Pianodwarf, a senior WWGHA member:

It's a burden of proof issue.  […] the one claiming that [something exists] […] bears a greater burden of proof than the [denier] because the one claiming [something exists] is making a claim that extends ontology, and such claims always carry a greater burden of proof than claims that an ontological extension does not exist. – Pianodwarf

You claim there is such a thing as luck: prove it, and define what it is and its nature.

You are good at answering questions with questions but you seem incapable of telling us what your views are. Do you have views? What are they? How do you rationalise them?
 1. If you have any
I purposely did not state if I believe that there IS or is NOT such a thing as luck. I asked if someone believe there was such a thing so it would be that person who would state "luck exist" or "luck does not exist" and the burden of proof lied with them.
You claimed that luck did not exist. So I asked you to prove it, and (in my opinion) you did.
I then asked you if you were satisfied with the quality of proof you given us. And you said Yes.
I'm glad that all you need for proof of not existence of luck is saying "it does not exist because people don't understand the definition correctly" I am paraphrasing of course, how would you formulate the reason in one phrase?
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Offline JoeNobody

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2014, 04:44:05 PM »
The old man worked on his farm with his son. One day, a horse wandered onto his farm. The villagers came to him and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied "Perhaps."

Then, while his son was trying to break the horse, it threw him, and broke his leg. The villagers came and said, "How unlucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

Then the army came by and took every able bodied young man to fight in the war. The old man's son, having a broken leg, was left behind. The villagers came and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

...

I don't use the word "luck" to describe fortunate events. I remain unconvinced that "luck" (invisible, unknowable forces) exists. I am convinced that a confluence of events (some known; some unknown) can occur to produce desirable results.

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2014, 12:33:02 AM »

Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows. What your actions demonstrate to me is that you-do-not-care whether or not your beliefs are true. You just want to believe, what you want to believe, because you want to believe.

If you disagree, then stop obfuscating and actually provide the demonstrable extraordinary evidence required to justify your extraordinary claims - or...admit you cannot. Simply attempting to compare something like the linguistic concept of "luck" is just another one of your false analogies. References to human conventions and linguistic tools such as "luck" or "love" have no bearing on this discussion - and are really just an attempt to change the subject. You have claimed that "Yahweh" exists, actually manifests in the world, and does "miracles". And yet for some odd reason you think it's all-good if you just shift the burden of proof instead of actually providing the evidence. Do you see how dishonest this is? With your actions here you are basically showing that you can't meet the challenge and that you do-not-care to. Why should we even waste or time with someone like you? Are you even open to the possibility that your beliefs are in error? If so, then stop dodging.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 12:46:47 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #149 on: May 14, 2014, 12:36:52 AM »

Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows.
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2014, 12:49:51 AM »

Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows.
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)

This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 12:51:43 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #151 on: May 14, 2014, 12:59:51 AM »
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #152 on: May 14, 2014, 01:05:26 AM »
Luk, if you had a car crash, and were propelled out of the side window, because you didn't use your safety belt that morning, when usually you do. This action saved you, and you could see that the whole car was crumpled. Would you consider this good "luck".
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #153 on: May 14, 2014, 01:08:47 AM »
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.

Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #154 on: May 14, 2014, 01:11:26 AM »
The old man worked on his farm with his son. One day, a horse wandered onto his farm. The villagers came to him and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied "Perhaps."

Then, while his son was trying to break the horse, it threw him, and broke his leg. The villagers came and said, "How unlucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

Then the army came by and took every able bodied young man to fight in the war. The old man's son, having a broken leg, was left behind. The villagers came and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

I like that story. I'm going to give it the green thumbs up. You lucky bastard!


I don't use the word "luck" to describe fortunate events. I remain unconvinced that "luck" (invisible, unknowable forces) exists.

I've never heard luck described as any sort of force before.




 I am convinced that a confluence of events (some known; some unknown) can occur to produce desirable results.

Yes, and we call it 'luck', purely as a word to describe the occurrence in a way that is almost universally understood.
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #155 on: May 14, 2014, 01:13:34 AM »
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.

And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - asshole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

I stated that "luck" is just a term and I rejected your use of it. I also reject your bullshit attempt at some kind of dishonest "Gotcha" nonsense. That was the context by which I was using the term you used (which was irrational once again since that isn't the subject Mr. red herring). I know you don't like having the burden of proof (clearly you don't because of how desperate you are in avoiding providing the extraordinary evidence for these supernatural claims you keep making) but the burden is still yours regardless. If you have actually reliable, independently verifiable evidence then present it or just be honest and admit you can't. Is it really that hard?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:15:19 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #156 on: May 14, 2014, 01:18:30 AM »
It was pretty lame, Luk; even by your normal standards of lameness.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #157 on: May 14, 2014, 01:29:02 AM »
It was pretty lame, Luk; even by your normal standards of lameness.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.

Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #158 on: May 14, 2014, 01:32:33 AM »
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.

And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - asshole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

I stated that "luck" is just a term and I rejected your use of it. I also reject your bullshit attempt at some kind of dishonest "Gotcha" nonsense. That was the context by which I was using the term you used (which was irrational once again since that isn't the subject Mr. red herring). I know you don't like having the burden of proof (clearly you don't because of how desperate you are in avoiding providing the extraordinary evidence for these supernatural claims you keep making) but the burden is still yours regardless. If you have actually reliable, independently verifiable evidence then present it or just be honest and admit you can't. Is it really that hard?
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #159 on: May 14, 2014, 01:32:57 AM »

Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.

Do you not see how unbelievably hypocritical this is?? I asked you to backup your claims to the supernatural and you dodged them (by trying to change the subject). Then, you in your desperation veer off into trying to go on the offense demanding that others answer your red herring question. WOW. That level of dissonance and arrogance is astounding.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #160 on: May 14, 2014, 01:35:11 AM »
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.

You made claims to the supernatural and "God", in post #27 specifically, (trying to justify such beliefs by use of hear-say and anecdote) and somehow the burden is on me? No. You sir, need to re-read the exchange because it is you who said "I'm having trouble proving this..." and then proceeded to attempt to change the subject.

Miracles happen, even today.
He does manifest in the physical world.\
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:40:50 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #161 on: May 14, 2014, 01:48:42 AM »
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.

You made claims to the supernatural and "God", in post #27 specifically, (trying to justify such beliefs by use of hear-say and anecdote) and somehow the burden is on me? No. You sir, need to re-read the exchange because it is you who said "I'm having trouble proving this..." and then proceeded to attempt to change the subject.

Miracles happen, even today.
He does manifest in the physical world.\
I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.
As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Now, let me ask you again the same questions that was ask the same night these 2 assertions of mine where made.
Median do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #162 on: May 14, 2014, 01:58:38 AM »
Quote
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.

I answered you on page 3 of this thread.

I do not consider it a privilege to interact with you Luk. I'm not waiting on your replies.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #163 on: May 14, 2014, 02:07:39 AM »
Quote
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.

I answered you on page 3 of this thread.

I do not consider it a privilege to interact with you Luk. I'm not waiting on your replies.
Sorry, can't find it. Could you quote your answer?
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #164 on: May 14, 2014, 02:26:52 AM »
It appears to be the post after your question.
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #165 on: May 14, 2014, 02:36:32 AM »
"Luck exists in a subjective sense" could you back up that claim?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #166 on: May 14, 2014, 02:48:22 AM »
Luk, this is actually pretty clear. Luck is nothing more than a word which is commonly used to describe a piece of good or bad fortune. I seriously doubt anybody who uses the word intends anything further by its use.
Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2014, 03:20:54 AM »
MM good question, do you have an actual refutation or counter argument?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #168 on: May 14, 2014, 03:38:06 AM »
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me to refute.
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2014, 04:04:14 AM »
MM i do apologise i misread luks last post as yours.
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #170 on: May 14, 2014, 04:07:57 AM »
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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2014, 04:12:25 AM »
"Luck exists in a subjective sense" could you back up that claim?

So you found it, did you?

It doesn't exist with the same subjectivity as the colour red. It's not hardwired into our brains. It is a subjective opinion, based on one's cultural bias. If you'd care to answer the last question I asked about your car crash, I will show you how subjective it is.



Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2014, 07:07:06 AM »
luk,
I guess that the fact that luck does not seem to favor anyone for any particular reason is not good enough proof for you.
Luck appears to be completely random in nature and predictable by the laws of averages is not enough for you.
a guy playing roulette in vegas will run out of luck no matter how long his streak of luck has run.  Eventually if you play long enough your luck will run out.  Almost the exact way that the laws of statistics averages would predict.
Although these are not hard facts they lead you to a conclusion that makes luck look more like a convergence of averages and desired outcome.  Rather than a sentient being determining fate.
and of course I could turn the question around on you.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
and absolutely people do get lucky.  but luck does not appear to be something tangible predictable or guided.
I am not saying it is enough or not enough. I am asking if YOU feel that it is enough. That's it.

Well clearly I think it is enough, I am firmly convinced that luck is a random convergence of coincidence and desired outcome.  I believe the evidence clearly points that direction.  But you seem to have some reservations on my evidence and I am hoping you tell me/us why my proofs/evidence are not enough. 

I can take your ~"lucky guy" and scientifically evaluate his luck and I will find that he falls right into the bell curve with everyone else.  Scientifically I doubt you could present someone who you think is lucky and have them come up as abnormally lucky. 

When I drive through an intersection 1\10th of a second ahead of someone In a cement truck ran a red light hitting a family of 4 behind me killing 3 and leaving the 4th a 5 year old in a persistent vegetative state.  One could say I was lucky because that morning I decided to brush my teeth for two more strokes and rub my dogs head before leaving.

I think you are implying that luck is somehow guided by some hand and dealt out to certain people at certain moments.




I guess I would have to ask luk, how is luck different than the random convergence of coincidence and desired outcome?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:09:08 AM by epidemic »

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #173 on: May 14, 2014, 08:43:00 AM »
In my experience there is no such thing as luck.
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee