Why can't/wont god heal amputees?

[Lukvance]

No it does not mean that. Miracles happen, even today.

And you evidence is...?

Yes and I'm not one of those Christians who argue that God no longer does miracles.

He does manifest in the physical world.

Evidence please...

This is like saying that I don't fly because I am imaginary.

No it is not. We have millions of examples of people flying (by use of airplanes), which are demonstrable and can be confirmed today. Can you point to ONE confirmed example (not just a claim but a real example) of a "God" healing an amputee (as is alleged in the bible) which can be confirmed today, like we can with people flying?

There are more than 3000 saints and each of them need at least 2 acknowledge miracles.[1]
"panels of doctors and theologians, cardinals and bishops" are used for this declaration of posthumous miracle.[2]

1.	"In order to beatify a candidate, it must be shown that the person is responsible for a posthumous miracle." ; "In order for the candidate to be considered a saint, there must be proof of a second posthumous miracle." - How does someone become a saint?
2.	[wiki]Congregation for the Causes of Saints[/wiki]

[median]

There are more than 3000 saints and each of them need at least 2 acknowledge miracles.[1]
"panels of doctors and theologians, cardinals and bishops" are used for this declaration of posthumous miracle.[2]

1.	"In order to beatify a candidate, it must be shown that the person is responsible for a posthumous miracle." ; "In order for the candidate to be considered a saint, there must be proof of a second posthumous miracle." - How does someone become a saint?
2.	[wiki]Congregation for the Causes of Saints[/wiki]

Huh? I ask for evidence and you give more claims?? You can't be serious. If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient?? Just because a group of people get together and decide to say, "We attribute this unexplained happening as a miracle!!" doesn't mean it was a miracle. That's just being gullible.

So I ask for evidence and you come back with "because these people said so"??

Do you even know what evidence is? If so, provide it - not hear-say.

[Lukvance]

If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??

Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.

Do you even know what evidence is? If so, provide it - not hear-say.

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

[median]

If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??

Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.

So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY. A group of people got together and said, "It's a confirmed miracle!" and you jumped at it (instead of actually practicing the same kind of skepticism you would if a fast talking salesman was standing at your door making extraordinary claims and asking for money or life devotion).

[Lukvance]

If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??

Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.

So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.

And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY? Belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to claims?

[median]

If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??

Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.

So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.

And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY?

This is called a false analogy. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun and that people have been to space is DEMONSTRABLE. Furthermore, these are not extraordinary claims or appeals to the supernatural or magic.

Again, I asked you for actual evidence of these alleged "miracles" and you came back with hear-say (which is not evidence). Where is your intellectual integrity Christian?

[Lukvance]

If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??

Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.

So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.

And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY?

This is called a false analogy. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun and that people have been to space is DEMONSTRABLE. Furthermore, these are not extraordinary claims or appeals to the supernatural or magic.

Again, I asked you for actual evidence of these alleged "miracles" and you came back with hear-say (which is not evidence). Where is your intellectual integrity Christian?

I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?

[median]

 I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?

This is actually 100% false, and more dishonesty. You are drawing a false analogy between claims to the supernatural and those which are not. Furthermore, you merely assume that the only way anyone can demonstrate that the earth revolves around the sun (or other such demonstrable scientific phenomena) is by quoting someone, which is false. So you are arguing irrationally on two accounts. We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.

[Defiance]

If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??

Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.

So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.

And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY?

This is called a false analogy. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun and that people have been to space is DEMONSTRABLE. Furthermore, these are not extraordinary claims or appeals to the supernatural or magic.

Again, I asked you for actual evidence of these alleged "miracles" and you came back with hear-say (which is not evidence). Where is your intellectual integrity Christian?

I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?

HE can buy (Make even) his own telescope, instrumentation, and follow the operational definitions of people who claim to have said that the Earth revolves around the sun. He can make instruments that we will measure the movement of earth through space, and that will be in an orbit around the sun. Each. And. Every. Time.

His evidence can be gathered as observations and he can then tell everyone to make their own tools, make their own measurements and keep seeing for themselves. Over. And. Over.

The fact that Miracles are NOT consistent throws them under the lava because not everyone can see it for themselves.

EX: Some cancer patients are healed by God. Some die. God is supposed to love everyone equally, then why would he let one die? See that? One questions leads to 10 more, each that have no answers.

[eh!]

Do people like luk lack some part of their own brain that tells them they are just talking nonsense .i don't get it.

[Lukvance]

We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.

I did! follow the links The panel does not use only believers work to assess a miracle, they also use : reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. They are professionals! And you should give them the respect they deserve.

[median]

We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.

I did! follow the links The panel does not use only believers work to assess a miracle, they also use : reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. They are professionals! And you should give them the respect they deserve.

No, you didn't. I asked for evidence (such as the claim of a confirmed miracle and the actual evidence which is alleged to support it - just like could be done with the sun). And yet all you came back with was a Wiki article and a link from those who accept the claims (which rely upon arguments from ignorance/incredulity fallacies). I'm asking for evidence that can be verified just like one could verify the reality of the earth revolving around the sun for themselves. Extraordinary claims require evidence (not just hear-say). You should know that.

Please provide the actual reference documentation to a confirmed miracle.

EDIT: Btw, sick people getting better or rare events occurring (or even things not yet explained) are not sufficient to be deemed a confirmed "miracle". Those are just anecdotal arguments from ignorance. "I just can't see how it could have happened any other way than a miracle" is a textbook argument from incredulity fallacy - not evidence. People win the lottery all the time and it's rare - not evidence. People experience natural remission from cancer on rare occasion (not evidence of a miracle but ignorance). People experience close calls - nearly getting killed but don't (still not evidence of a miracle). You need actual evidence - such as a clear case where an amputee, or a person who was born with no limbs, magically grows back their limbs after receiving intercessory prayer.

[eh!]

So when do they predict the next miracle to happen, what will it be and where. i will be there with a camera and post it to you tube.


can they create a miracle at will per a design specification like we can build a rocket to land a man or woman on the moon.
what hypothesis did they test, what page on what peer reviewed journal.


demonstrate just one miracle and this forum will close and every person on the planet will worship the cause of the miracle all other religions would cease.


back up your claims or you a breaking one of the 10 commandments ...by telling lies.


come clean man you are atm a fraud, not a theist.

[Lukvance]

So when do they predict the next miracle to happen, what will it be and where. i will be there with a camera and post it to you tube.

Please provide the actual reference documentation to a confirmed miracle.

You two. Can we agree that I got robbed by a guy and that I cannot predict when the next time someone will get robbed?
Can we agree that the following miracle happened and that I cannot predict exactly when the next will be.
I had a girlfriend. Her sister was sick (cancer, terminal phase) and the doctor told her there wasn't anything more they could do. She had to wait. One day, while I was at her parents house, she came and told us the story on how God cured her.
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

[Defiance]

So when do they predict the next miracle to happen, what will it be and where. i will be there with a camera and post it to you tube.

Please provide the actual reference documentation to a confirmed miracle.

You two. Can we agree that I got robbed by a guy and that I cannot predict when the next time someone will get robbed?
Can we agree that the following miracle happened and that I cannot predict exactly when the next will be.
I had a girlfriend. Her sister was sick (cancer, terminal phase) and the doctor told her there wasn't anything more they could do. She had to wait. One day, while I was at her parents house, she came and told us the story on how God cured her.
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

She was sick, and she was with Doctors. Where do we need God in this?

[eh!]

Actually i am trained in medical radiation technology maintained teletherapy units, a PET scanner with it's own particle accelerator, prepared isotope drinks, calibrated gamma cameras and brachytherapy implants for years. saw a lot of treatments. cancers pretty much progressed as oncologists and radio therapists predicted.

i would like to see the ladies treatment plan thanks and i will assess it myself.

[Lukvance]

i would like to see the ladies treatment plan thanks and i will assess it myself.

I guessed that much and that is why I wrote:

I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.

And then went on with :

If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

[Lukvance]

She was sick, and she was with Doctors. Where do we need God in this?

The doctors could not cure her of her cancer. God could (and did).

[eh!]

Dude i seen many people die you can make whatever you want from the stats, the only thing that is true is that medical treatments puts the odds in your favour, prayer does nothing to progression of a cancer case and i want to slap the shit out of people like you who claim otherwise your kind are a menace. if prayer worked we would use it as a treatment tool you disgust me.

[Lukvance]

Dude i seen many people die you can make whatever you want from the stats, the only thing that is true is that medical treatments puts the odds in your favour, prayer does nothing to progression of a cancer case and i want to slap the shit out of people like you who claim otherwise your kind are a menace. if prayer worked we would use it as a treatment tool you disgust me.

Maybe you are not comprehending what a miracle is. It is not common. If it was, we wouldn't call it miracle we'd call it life. You might be not using prayer but I'm sure some of your colleague use it to help themselves and their patients. Try it yourself, look at the patients who pray and compare them to those who do not pray. Tell me if you see a difference in their remission speed.

[median]

You two. Can we agree that I got robbed by a guy and that I cannot predict when the next time someone will get robbed?
Can we agree that the following miracle happened and that I cannot predict exactly when the next will be.
I had a girlfriend. Her sister was sick (cancer, terminal phase) and the doctor told her there wasn't anything more they could do. She had to wait. One day, while I was at her parents house, she came and told us the story on how God cured her.
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

These are not evidences of miracles. They are anecdotal accounts of hear-say. "It was deemed by X person to be a miracle" is not evidence. It is you taking somebody else' word for claims to the supernatural. Are you bringing your A game here? You aren't even coming back with ordinary evidence - let alone extraordinary evidence which would justify believing a miracle occurred. These cases you keep posting are just placeholders for ignorance. "We personally can't explain how X thing happened, outside of our theology, so we're just going to say God did it." I'm sorry. That is just hypocrisy b/c you would not do that with other claims to the supernatural which contradict your theology and your presuppositions. When something cannot be explained sufficiently, then you should admit ignorance - instead of just asserting that your particular version of said deity did it, b/c that doesn't explain anything. It is an attempt to explain a mystery with an even bigger mystery.

You must not have read my previous response b/c I dealt with these kinds of anecdotes. We have lots of examples of people getting robbed. We do not have examples of confirmed "miracles" by some "God" thing. You keep trying to draw false analogies and it isn't working. And with the cancer thing, you do know that that door swings both ways, don't you? If you can use a particular case of a person suddenly and unexpectedly having a remission from cancer as evidence for a God, then I can use ALL examples of them NOT getting better (i.e. - them dying) as evidence AGAINST said deity. And in that case I win b/c I have more exmples of cancer patients dying. I'm sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too. But see, rare events of people getting better from cancers (or other health problems) are not evidence of a miracle from a deity, anymore than they are evidence of magic pink unicorns, pixies, are lucky leprechauns. You are just using "miracle" or "God" in place of your own ignorance of what really happened.

Again, please provide the evidence of an actual miracle (not hear-say or anecdote). We're talking about a specific case of, say, an amputee magically growing their limb back.

[Lukvance]

Again, please provide the evidence of an actual miracle (not hear-say or anecdote). We're talking about a specific case of, say, an amputee magically growing their limb back.

Let me pick one. What about a "Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes" person? She was cured. After praying God, not a magic pink unicorns, pixies or lucky leprechauns. God.
Now, I gave you the link to the report of the act. What else would you need?

Edit: I just read about the doctor who examined her : "Any doctors practicing in or visiting Lourdes may apply to become members of the Lourdes Medical Bureau. Additionally, nurses, physiotherapists, pharmacists and members of other allied health professions may apply to become members. Members are given (and invited to wear) a small but distinctive badge displaying a red cross on a white background surmounted by the word Credo ("I believe"). However, members of any religious affiliation or none are welcomed."
The Medical Bureau investigates the claim, by examining the patient, the casenotes, and any test results (which can include biopsies, X-rays, CT scans, blood test results, and so on). A full investigation requires that one of its members investigates every detail of the case in question, and immerses him/herself in the literature around that condition to ensure that up-to-date academic knowledge is applied to the decision. This investigator may also consult with other colleagues about the case.

[Lukvance]

For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:
The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as "incurable" with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)

[median]

Dude i seen many people die you can make whatever you want from the stats, the only thing that is true is that medical treatments puts the odds in your favour, prayer does nothing to progression of a cancer case and i want to slap the shit out of people like you who claim otherwise your kind are a menace. if prayer worked we would use it as a treatment tool you disgust me.

Maybe you are not comprehending what a miracle is. It is not common. If it was, we wouldn't call it miracle we'd call it life. You might be not using prayer but I'm sure some of your colleague use it to help themselves and their patients. Try it yourself, look at the patients who pray and compare them to those who do not pray. Tell me if you see a difference in their remission speed.

So, a miracle for you is just a rare event? That's it? If that's the case then there is no distinction between a miracle and a non-miracle - and thus the word has absolutely no meaning.

There is actually no significant difference whatsoever in scientific studies regarding prayer. People who received intercessory prayer actually did worse than those who received none, and in other cases did no better. The studies on prayer show absolutely no significance whatsoever in terms of people getting better. Those who received prayer didn't do any better. Now you can believe that prayer works, but you do so in spite of the evidence, not because of it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12082681/ns/health-heart_health/t/power-prayer-flunks-unusual-test/#.U273iPldUgw
http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/natural-medicine/alternative/prayer-healing1.htm

So much for this "loving" God doing anything. It's Santa Claus for grown ups.

[median]

For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:
The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as "incurable" with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)

Listen to yourself. You just so flippantly said the key word and yet skipped over it without even realizing what you were saying. INEXPLICABLE!

When something is inexplicable (meaning you don't know what happened), then you don't get to try to explain it by appealing to a "miracle" - because it is an argument from ignorance and you are contradicting yourself (saying on one hand that it's explainable, but then on the other hand trying to claim you've explained it). See this double standard you have?? 

[Lukvance]

So, a miracle for you is just a rare event? That's it? If that's the case then there is no distinction between a miracle and a non-miracle - and thus the word has absolutely no meaning.

No that's not it.
It must follow rules :

For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:
The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as "incurable" with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)

PLUS : CMIL is not entitled to pronounce a cure "miraculous"; this can only be done by the Church
Means that the church make sure that it was indeed God.

She was cured. After praying God, not a magic pink unicorns, pixies or lucky leprechauns. God.

[eh!]

How does god choose the miraclee?

Yr comments telling me to gopray makes me want to kick your dumb ass.


can't link but actual real experiments have been done.  the results are no different to no treatment ie random chance.


funny actual medical treatment does give a statistically significant improvement.


lourdes is an economic bonanza like all the other towns clamouring for saint hood so they can line their pockets by robbing the desperate.

[Lukvance]

Listen to yourself. You just so flippantly said the key word and yet skipped over it without even realizing what you were saying. INEXPLICABLE!

When something is inexplicable (meaning you don't know what happened), then you don't get to try to explain it by appealing to a "miracle" - because it is an argument from ignorance and you are contradicting yourself (saying on one hand that it's explainable, but then on the other hand trying to claim you've explained it). See this double standard you have?? 

Who is skipping words now? The article is clear : MEDICALLY inexplicable
There, you see? no more double standard.

[Lukvance]

How does god choose the miraclee?

Yr comments telling me to gopray makes me want to kick your dumb ass.


can't link but actual real experiments have been done.  the results are no different to no treatment ie random chance.


funny actual medical treatment does give a statistically significant improvement.


lourdes is an economic bonanza like all the other towns clamouring for saint hood so they can line their pockets by robbing the desperate.

said the guy who, when cornered in a discussion, threaten physically the other and insult him. Bravo!