Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 7842 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #725 on: June 23, 2014, 06:24:57 PM »
God " healing" cancers does not violate free will,does God not healing it violate free will?

Whatever god does-- or does not do, is in perfect alignment with free will. The Catholic Church has a magical godly free will miracle detecting machineTM and will show it to you if you have a priest costume and an extra couple thousand bucks for a trip to Lourdes. And a penis.

God always acts in concert with free will. Except when someone's free will would cause the universe to explode because it is something that god cannot do, although there is nothing that god cannot do.  At least until humans figure out how to do whatever it is that would have caused the universe to explode--cure leprosy without Jesus, travel at the speed of sound without magic, leave the earth's atmosphere without Jehovah, live a nice life without religion. Then it will not be a miracle anymore and will not have anything to do with god. Except that it does.  :-\

Haven't you been following Lukvance's clear, logically consistent and well-thought out arguments? Haven't you looked at all the scientific evidence he has presented in support of his position?

Yeah. Me neither. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #726 on: June 23, 2014, 06:40:07 PM »
If someone was not healed, then they were not deserving of it.

Your claim is a presupposition.

So if a murderer / rapist has their cancer go into remission then they deserve to have their prayers answered?

So if an infant child gets cancer and dies despite many family members praying for the child, the child did not deserve it?

Let me guess, you will try to explain these scenarios away with more presuppositions or some other logical fallacy.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 06:42:39 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #727 on: June 23, 2014, 11:19:46 PM »
If "miracles" actually alter the fabric of reality, then the Catholic Church should start keeping a database on how the universe was affected by any given miracle.  If it gets too far out of hand, we might have to start unsainting people and rolling back their miracles so that the Earth doesn't bounce off a rail on the pool table and sink the cue ball by mistake.

And inquiring minds want to know:  How could Jesus have come back from the dead without the resultant violation of physical reality annihilating everything from here to Tau Ceti?
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #728 on: June 23, 2014, 11:41:01 PM »
Is that the only way to heal amputees?
Of course not. But this is the one we are discussing here.
There are a lot of amputees out there who will tell you that God healed them.

Agreed. If suddenly amputees were healed, and the only logical explanation was an intervention by your specific god, then there would be no more atheists, and you would suddenly have nothing to do, which would be far more horrible a fate for mankind than mere amputees.

I see your point. Vividly. The last thing any thinking person would want is for the universe to stop revolving around you, Lukvance.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #729 on: June 24, 2014, 04:10:37 PM »
Because religious people like you are practicing confirmation bias and using irrational arguments to justify it.
It's like those term are created specially for the cases of miracle. Am I right?

No, they aren't. Confirmation bias is found in many subjects (new agers, quack salesman, astrology, Scientology, etc), as are irrational arguments. They are wrong for everyone to use including you.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #730 on: June 24, 2014, 04:12:56 PM »
Cancer sometimes gets better by itself.

Yes, we call it God. You call it spontaneous remission. The problem is that you can't explain how it spontaneously remissioned itself while we can explain it.

Merely CLAIMING "God did it" is not explaining it, sorry.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #731 on: June 25, 2014, 07:32:00 PM »
So God is not constrained by anything, correct?
Yes.
Quote
If so, couldn't God simply regrow a limb without negative consequences?
Nonsense. Could he simply create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it?
Quote
If he can't avoid the consequences, why not?
Why can't he avoid the consequence? For the same reason that he can't lift the rock, he created it that way.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #732 on: June 25, 2014, 07:47:45 PM »
So, your god can do anything, except what he cannot do. Right.  I can also do anything, except what I cannot do. I guess that makes me a god, too.

Lukvance, do you understand what a circular argument is?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #733 on: June 25, 2014, 07:53:19 PM »
So your claims of miracles you attribute to a God does not disrupt or have negative consequence,but regrowing a limb will,what is the difference? Aside from the fact that God providing evidence by healing an amputee would only disrupt the non-believers point of view.

 God cannot provide you with miracles,while not disrupting your free will,because you would no longer need faith to believe in him. The same could be said for the non-believer seeing a miracle of an amputee getting a limb from a god,it would just remove the doubt we have that the Deity exists.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #734 on: June 25, 2014, 08:04:32 PM »
Lukvance, do you understand what a circular argument is?
Yes.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #735 on: June 25, 2014, 08:14:15 PM »
Lukvance, do you understand what a circular argument is?
Yes.
Then stop using it and provide the people in this forum with something to back up your claims please.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #736 on: June 25, 2014, 08:15:20 PM »
So God is not constrained by anything, correct?
Yes.
Quote
If so, couldn't God simply regrow a limb without negative consequences?
Nonsense. Could he simply create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it?
Quote
If he can't avoid the consequences, why not?
Why can't he avoid the consequence? For the same reason that he can't lift the rock, he created it that way.

You just contradicted yourself.

Once again YOU ARE IRRATIONAL.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #737 on: June 26, 2014, 07:48:48 AM »
So God is not constrained by anything, correct?
Yes.

Quote
If so, couldn't God simply regrow a limb without negative consequences?

 Nonsense. Could he simply create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it?

You need to explain why your second answer does not contradict the first. 

Then you need to explain how the example of your second answer is the same the second question.  You gave an example of a paradox - an all powerful god trying to create something he cannot do.  But that was not what was given in the question.

Your answer is baloney.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #738 on: June 26, 2014, 11:42:14 AM »
I don't think there is more to explain. What exactly don't you understand in the fact that question like "can God..." will always be answered by YES and if it is not the reality you see then you question is a paradox like the rock.
YES God can create a Rock so heavy that he can't lift it.
YES God can simply regrow a limb without negative consequences.
Yes God can do ANYTHING. The reason why he doesn't do it is the same one I've been giving you over and over. Consequences!
Now If you have valuable question I will try my best to answer them.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #739 on: June 26, 2014, 11:54:15 AM »
I don't think there is more to explain. What exactly don't you understand in the fact that question like "can God..." will always be answered by YES and if it is not the reality you see then you question is a paradox like the rock.
YES God can create a Rock so heavy that he can't lift it.
YES God can simply regrow a limb without negative consequences.
Yes God can do ANYTHING. The reason why he doesn't do it is the same one I've been giving you over and over. Consequences!
Now If you have valuable question I will try my best to answer them.

I am staring at this post dumbfounded.  Completely and utterly dumbfounded.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #740 on: June 26, 2014, 11:54:25 AM »
I don't think there is more to explain. What exactly don't you understand in the fact that question like "can God..." will always be answered by YES and if it is not the reality you see then you question is a paradox like the rock.
YES God can create a Rock so heavy that he can't lift it.
YES God can simply regrow a limb without negative consequences.
Yes God can do ANYTHING. The reason why he doesn't do it is the same one I've been giving you over and over. Consequences!
Now If you have valuable question I will try my best to answer them.

You've just contradicted yourself...AGAIN.

If you're alleged all-powerful "God" can make a rock so heavy he can't pick it up, then it would mean that he is not all powerful!!!

-I'm all powerful!
-Can you pickup this rock?
-No...
-Then you're not all powerful, are you?
-Hmmm, guess not :/


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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #741 on: June 26, 2014, 11:57:15 AM »
I don't think there is more to explain. What exactly don't you understand in the fact that question like "can God..." will always be answered by YES and if it is not the reality you see then you question is a paradox like the rock.

I don't know if that is the stupidest thing you've said yet, but I will nominate it as a top candidate.

It is completely circular logic. 

YES God can create a Rock so heavy that he can't lift it.
YES God can simply regrow a limb without negative consequences.
Yes God can do ANYTHING. The reason why he doesn't do it is the same one I've been giving you over and over. Consequences!

"Consequences" isn't an answer.  What are the consequences of regrowing lost limbs?  What is so awful about them that he does not do it?

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Online Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #742 on: June 26, 2014, 12:11:37 PM »
"Consequences" isn't an answer.  What are the consequences of regrowing lost limbs?  What is so awful about them that he does not do it?
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.
Who knows what happen when the laws are not respected. Is it ever good?
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Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #743 on: June 26, 2014, 12:14:14 PM »
YES God can simply regrow a limb without negative consequences.
Yes God can do ANYTHING. The reason why he doesn't do it is the same one I've been giving you over and over. Consequences!

See your irrational logic? Let's see what the bible says in regards to your claim about the alleged "God" not healing amputees...

Mark 3

3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Negative consequences from an alleged "all-powerful" god that can do anything without negative consequences?? Get real dude. You are a complete and total bullshitter. Your alleged god violated it's own "laws" in the bible! What about the blind man? Dude stop your bullshit and get honest.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 12:15:57 PM by median »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #744 on: June 26, 2014, 12:15:22 PM »
Any answered prayer will NOW have consequence won't it? Even the smallest thing prayed for and given to the person praying should have a negative consequence on his/her free-will. Care to explain what the difference is to the prayee? Any prayer answered with a YES by God,should have a negative consequence.....or no prayer answered YES does....including healing an amputee.

 Luk,why do some prayers answered yes by God have no negative effect on free-will,but healing an amputee does?.........That would be valid proof for the existence of a god,something you don't really want,why?
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #745 on: June 26, 2014, 12:15:33 PM »
You've just contradicted yourself...AGAIN.

If you're alleged all-powerful "God" can make a rock so heavy he can't pick it up, then it would mean that he is not all powerful!!!

-I'm all powerful!
-Can you pickup this rock?
-No...
-Then you're not all powerful, are you?
-Hmmm, guess not :/
Here some links for you :
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/logical-truth-and-omnipotence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
I hope reading them will help you understand how what you just said goes against all your precious beliefs in logic.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #746 on: June 26, 2014, 12:19:23 PM »
You sir are an idiot >:( >:(
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Online One Above All

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #747 on: June 26, 2014, 12:21:52 PM »
Lukvance's "logic":
Why doesn't my god perform miracles? Because there are limitations!
Can my god do stuff without limitations? Of course he can!

Just report him for trolling, people. Anyone with an IQ over -infinity could tell he's a troll.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #748 on: June 26, 2014, 12:29:16 PM »
Who knows what happen when the laws are not respected. Is it ever good?

Yes.  If a law is arbitrary, inaccurate or immoral, then not respecting it can lead to great benefits.

In the case of judicial law, it can liberate people from discriminatory treatment or from cruel and unusual punishment

In the case of scientific law, it can correct errors and lead to a better understanding of a scientific principle.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #749 on: June 26, 2014, 12:30:09 PM »
See your irrational logic? Let's see what the bible says in regards to your claim about the alleged "God" not healing amputees...
Mark 3
3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand [...] and his hand was completely restored.[/b]
[...]
Negative consequences from an alleged "all-powerful" god that can do anything without negative consequences?? Get real dude.

That's funny, it is also a cure from a hand that was one of the first miracle of Lourdes. Coincidence?
Anyway, the guy in your example was not missing a limb.

Quote
You are a complete and total bullshitter. Your alleged god violated it's own "laws" in the bible! What about the blind man? Dude stop your bullshit and get honest.
Could you please refrain yourself from insulting me? It's really unpleasant.
You're worth more than my time

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #750 on: June 26, 2014, 12:40:58 PM »
You've just contradicted yourself...AGAIN.

If you're alleged all-powerful "God" can make a rock so heavy he can't pick it up, then it would mean that he is not all powerful!!!

-I'm all powerful!
-Can you pickup this rock?
-No...
-Then you're not all powerful, are you?
-Hmmm, guess not :/
Here some links for you :
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/logical-truth-and-omnipotence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
I hope reading them will help you understand how what you just said goes against all your precious beliefs in logic.

Neither of the articles you posted addresses the problem (and yes, I have read both). All they do (both Craig and Geisler) is equivocate on the term "all-powerful" and then make more CLAIMS - just like you always do.

Bill Craig:
"...the Christian should say that the necessary truths of logic (and perhaps math) just are representations of the way God's mind essentially thinks."

Setting aside the fact that this is just another arbitrary assertion with no backing, just like nearly every religious claim, I say great! If logic is "the way God's mind essentially thinks" then he can't be "all-powerful". So stopping using the term to refer to your alleged God. Your alleged god is limited by its nature and therefore CANNOT DO ANYTHING.

Wiki Article:
"Omnipotence, they say, does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature."

Ah yes, the infamous equivocation fallacy. I'm sorry, if logic applies (and you want to actually be rational) then you can't have your cake and eat it too. If your alleged "Yahweh" has a "nature" then he/she/it is LIMITED and cannot do anything (and it is therefore NOT ALL-POWERFUL). You don't get to just ASSERT that being all-powerful doesn't mean all-powerful and get away with it. In every other context such reasoning is irrational and is therefore invalid. I could say I'm "all-strong" and can pickup anything. But the second I admit that there is something I cannot pickup I am no longer "all-strong". Merely rationalizing by calling it a "paradox" doesn't solve the problem either (because anyone can do that and it's just as irrational).

Finally, Craig said something in his article that I found hilarious:

Quote
"Moreover, Descartes' position is incredible. It asks us to believe, for example, that God could have brought it about that He created all of us without His existing, that is to say, there is a possible world in which both God does not exist and He created all of us. This is simply nonsense."

HA! I love it. Craig correctly points out how irrational it is to hold a position which violates the laws of logic, and yet instead of admitting that his alleged god is not all-powerful (because this is exactly what logic entails) he instead (elsewhere) attempts to equivocate on the term "all-powerful". So he is the pot calling the kettle black - shunning irrational reasoning when it suits him and using it when it helps his confirmation bias. That is called sophistry.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 12:54:35 PM by median »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #751 on: June 26, 2014, 12:44:10 PM »
Could you please refrain yourself from insulting me? It's really unpleasant.

Could you stop posting without giving due thought and consideration to the posts that you're responding to?  It's really unpleasant.

I don't mean that as an insult, Lukvance.  I truly believe that you are not spending any time thinking about what is posted to you, and I truly believe that you do not spend any time thinking about the posts that you make.
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Offline Jag

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #753 on: June 27, 2014, 07:41:26 AM »
"Consequences" isn't an answer.  What are the consequences of regrowing lost limbs?  What is so awful about them that he does not do it?
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.
Who knows what happen when the laws are not respected. Is it ever good?

Another failure to answer the question while creating more question. 

So you are saying god cannot heal amputees because "consequences", but who knows what the consequences are?  Fail. 

And why would the guy who created the law have to respect the law?  That is the xian argument for god making people suffer, no?  "god created us so he can do whatever he wants to us." 

Luc, you are a very confused man.

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