Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 8447 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #696 on: June 20, 2014, 02:16:45 AM »
I don't understand. How is this an argument against "God does not heal amputees because of the consequences of this miracle"?
Lukvance:
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Lukvance,
My advice at
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26618.msg618984.html#msg618984 was: "You repeatedly refuse to address points by saying "It is your opinion" [...] Quite seriously, if you persist in using "it is your opinion" rather than giving a counter argument, I will have no choice but to advise that your posting rights are restricted."

Now do you understand?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 02:19:58 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #697 on: June 20, 2014, 01:54:22 PM »
I don't understand. How is this an argument against "God does not heal amputees because of the consequences of this miracle"?
Lukvance:
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How can I follow the direction if I DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM and CAN'T even ASK for explanation(s)?
Lukvance,
My advice at
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26618.msg618984.html#msg618984 was: "You repeatedly refuse to address points by saying "It is your opinion" [...] Quite seriously, if you persist in using "it is your opinion" rather than giving a counter argument, I will have no choice but to advise that your posting rights are restricted."

Now do you understand?

Yes, IF IT WAS THE CASE. But it is clearly not the case. I do not use "it is your opinion" instead of giving a counter argument.
I DON'T understand why do you say that? clearly, the "example" you chose to moderate wasn't such a case. This make me feel disrespected.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #698 on: June 20, 2014, 01:56:07 PM »
Not to get too pedantic or anything, but didn't you say that god did miracle healings? Just not growing back arms, etc.
Yes some healing events are considered as miracles. Why?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #699 on: June 20, 2014, 03:08:38 PM »
Luc

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #700 on: June 20, 2014, 11:03:47 PM »
Not to get too pedantic or anything, but didn't you say that god did miracle healings? Just not growing back arms, etc.
Yes some healing events are considered as miracles. Why?

Because you still have not addressed why some miracles are okay for god to do, but not growing back arms or legs. In other words, not a single clear, obvious, unambiguous, not possible to be faked in any way miracle has even been documented. Ever.

Cancer sometimes gets better by itself. Sometimes people with serious illnesses get better-- even a few people with AIDS have gotten better without treatment.[1]

But amputees don't ever grow back their limbs. If it happened, it would be a bona fide miraculous event. You could not easily fake that.

You could fake other healings. "I can't move my hand-- now I can!" A person can pretend to be paralyzed and then get up and walk. A person can pretend to be mute or blind or deaf or insane. But nobody can pretend to be an amputee. There are no psychosomatic amputees. That is why it is interesting that your god has decided that healing cancer is okay, but that healing an amputee would destroy the universe.

How about reversing other non-fakeable, non-self healing conditions like Down's syndrome or senile dementia? Would that also destroy the universe?

Lastly, you still have not addressed why, when humans discover how to treat these conditions, it does not destroy the universe.
 1. IIRC scientist were studying AIDS resistance among hard-core African prostitutes, not exactly the most devout group.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #701 on: June 21, 2014, 12:14:29 PM »
Not to get too pedantic or anything, but didn't you say that god did miracle healings? Just not growing back arms, etc.
Yes some healing events are considered as miracles. Why?

Because religious people like you are practicing confirmation bias and using irrational arguments to justify it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #702 on: June 23, 2014, 12:33:50 AM »
Because you still have not addressed why some miracles are okay for god to do, but not growing back arms or legs. In other words, not a single clear, obvious, unambiguous, not possible to be faked in any way miracle has even been documented. Ever.
That is where you are wrong. Miracles are documented in a way that it is clear, obvious, unambiguous, not possible to be faked. That is what any person who has been working with the process of miracle will "teach" you (since apparently you don't know about it yet)
Here is a good read to start : http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/24660240

Quote
How about reversing other non-fakeable, non-self healing conditions like Down's syndrome or senile dementia? Would that also destroy the universe?
I think there are some miracle for those I haven't look deep: http://101prayer.com/story1.html

Quote
Lastly, you still have not addressed why, when humans discover how to treat these conditions, it does not destroy the universe.
Humans discovered how to make limbs appear out of nowhere? i don't think so. My answer apply only to the people missing a limb.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #703 on: June 23, 2014, 12:34:51 AM »
Because religious people like you are practicing confirmation bias and using irrational arguments to justify it.
It's like those term are created specially for the cases of miracle. Am I right?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #704 on: June 23, 2014, 01:32:23 AM »
Cancer sometimes gets better by itself.

Yes, we call it God. You call it spontaneous remission. The problem is that you can't explain how it spontaneously remissioned itself while we can explain it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #705 on: June 23, 2014, 03:14:13 AM »
Ok we get it god doesn't heal amputees cos he doesn't want to break the laws of physics. in fact god only chooses to perform miracles on things that could and do happen without god. god only performs miracles randomly on random people leaving the terminally ill travel at great expense to catholic sanctioned places but it has nothing to do with the place or the water (lourdes). and statistically there is no difference ever demonstrated between same effect happening just in general population not at lourdes. as for the millions of weak frail people spending much dollars and personal risk not to get a miracle they can just suck on it.


my conclusion - god is useless, immoral attention whore that is indistinguishable from no god.


please dear god i pray to you right now strike me down dead you chicken shit child murderer.





oh shit my heart, oh my god.............all good i just farted.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 03:24:36 AM by eh! »
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #706 on: June 23, 2014, 08:14:54 AM »
Cancer sometimes gets better by itself.

Yes, we call it God. You call it spontaneous remission. The problem is that you can't explain how it spontaneously remissioned itself while we can explain it.

You can't really explain it though. You can say god did it but not explain why he did it in this particular circumstance or know how to repeat it.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #707 on: June 23, 2014, 08:33:55 AM »
Yes, we call it God. You call it spontaneous remission. The problem is that you can't explain how it spontaneously remissioned itself while we can explain it.

If I say the Cancer Faerie cured them, I have now "explained it" as well as you. 

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #708 on: June 23, 2014, 10:33:33 AM »
If I say the Cancer Faerie cured them, I have now "explained it" as well as you.

Please don't be silly. A cancer fairy would cure cancer because that's its job title. We know God does not heal (nor do we expect God to heal) every cancer patient.

Big difference.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #709 on: June 23, 2014, 10:45:14 AM »
Cancer sometimes gets better by itself.

Yes, we call it God. You call it spontaneous remission. The problem is that you can't explain how it spontaneously remissioned itself while we can explain it.
if this were true every person who is actually a Christian with a clean heart( as a Christian sees it) who prays to God to be cured of cancer would be. They would not perish,but hey maybe God was busy that day ..... No miracle for you.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #710 on: June 23, 2014, 10:49:10 AM »
if this were true every person who is actually a Christian with a clean heart( as a Christian sees it) who prays to God to be cured of cancer would be. They would not perish,but hey maybe God was busy that day ..... No miracle for you.

But that is how we tell the difference in an experiment. If someone was not healed, then they were not deserving of it. We have all seen cancer go into remission on its own. The truth is out there. It just gets filed under "No clue how it happened, but it happened."

If there is no God, how do you personally think cancer goes away on its own yet doesn't with chemo sometimes?

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #711 on: June 23, 2014, 10:50:51 AM »
If I say the Cancer Faerie cured them, I have now "explained it" as well as you.

Please don't be silly. A cancer fairy would cure cancer because that's its job title. We know God does not heal (nor do we expect God to heal) every cancer patient.

Big difference.
Why should your God be so selective?  Is God making Jesus a liar? If you are Christian and you pray for a cure and die,Jesus misrepresented himself and his father,you can move mountains with prayer you know.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #712 on: June 23, 2014, 10:53:10 AM »
if this were true every person who is actually a Christian with a clean heart( as a Christian sees it) who prays to God to be cured of cancer would be. They would not perish,but hey maybe God was busy that day ..... No miracle for you.

But that is how we tell the difference in an experiment. If someone was not healed, then they were not deserving of it. We have all seen cancer go into remission on its own. The truth is out there. It just gets filed under "No clue how it happened, but it happened."

If there is no God, how do you personally think cancer goes away on its own yet doesn't with chemo sometimes?
if a Christian is pure of heart and prays for healing,does God ignore him?,,,, maybe you should take a biology course or two.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #713 on: June 23, 2014, 11:08:30 AM »
Please don't be silly.

No sillier than you are.

A cancer fairy would cure cancer because that's its job title.

It's not a cancer faerie.  It is The Cancer Faerie.  It is not a job title.  It is a description. 

We know God does not heal (nor do we expect God to heal) every cancer patient.

Neither does The Cancer Faerie.  She is capricious, like god.  And sometimes she gives people cancer, just to test them or show them what they are capable of.  Sometimes she gives it to them just for the hell of it.  Because, you know, she's The Cancer Faerie.[1]  But in the end, it is all for the greater good.

Big difference.

No.  No difference at all, except in name.



If someone was not healed, then they were not deserving of it.

Why do "desserts" come into play?  As I understand, what we deserve has nothing to do with god's decisions on things.  It is all (supposedly) grace.

I am sure you do not realize just how full of baloney you are.  Allow me to help: you are overflowing.

 1. Think god in the book of Job.
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Offline JoeNobody

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #714 on: June 23, 2014, 01:46:23 PM »
Lastly, you still have not addressed why, when humans discover how to treat these conditions, it does not destroy the universe.
Humans discovered how to make limbs appear out of nowhere? i don't think so. My answer apply only to the people missing a limb.

Is that the only way to heal amputees?

BTW, you should look at extracellular matrix regeneration.

Offline JoeNobody

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #715 on: June 23, 2014, 01:50:14 PM »
I'm also curious about this notion that God is constrained by the laws of the universe.

Lukvance, who do you believe made the laws of nature?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #716 on: June 23, 2014, 03:40:29 PM »
I'm also curious about this notion that God is constrained by the laws of the universe.
Lukvance, who do you believe made the laws of nature?
God made the laws of nature. God is not constrained by anything.
If God where to heal the amputee the consequences from this would be much worse that not healing him.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #717 on: June 23, 2014, 03:41:29 PM »
Is that the only way to heal amputees?
Of course not. But this is the one we are discussing here.
There are a lot of amputees out there who will tell you that God healed them.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #718 on: June 23, 2014, 04:09:51 PM »
I'm also curious about this notion that God is constrained by the laws of the universe.
Lukvance, who do you believe made the laws of nature?
God made the laws of nature. God is not constrained by anything.
If God where to heal the amputee the consequences from this would be much worse that not healing him.
Please explain this statement ,why you believe it to be true?  God of the old world has no problem doing things that you could consider a disruption of free will,why is it a problem now?

 If God could disrupt free will in the past why not now? Do the miracles you describe not interfere with free will in any way?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #719 on: June 23, 2014, 04:46:13 PM »
Please explain this statement ,why you believe it to be true?  God of the old world has no problem doing things that you could consider a disruption of free will,why is it a problem now?
If God could disrupt free will in the past why not now? Do the miracles you describe not interfere with free will in any way?
Why do I believe that God made the universe? or why do I believe that God does not heal amputees because of the consequences it would have?
I don't think we know about the disruption of free will in the past. We don't know if there was or if there was no disruption.
For a miracle to occur it must be willed by the free will being involved.
For example : someone who saw his hand healed and did not will for it to be healed. In that case there is no miracle. This person healing wasn't God's doing.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #720 on: June 23, 2014, 04:54:19 PM »
Stop the dodge and answer the questin
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Offline JoeNobody

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #721 on: June 23, 2014, 05:37:36 PM »
I'm also curious about this notion that God is constrained by the laws of the universe.
Lukvance, who do you believe made the laws of nature?
God made the laws of nature. God is not constrained by anything.
If God where to heal the amputee the consequences from this would be much worse that not healing him.

So God is not constrained by anything, correct?

If so, couldn't God simply regrow a limb without negative consequences?

If he can't avoid the consequences, why not?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #722 on: June 23, 2014, 05:40:24 PM »
God made the laws of nature. God is not constrained by anything.
I'm just a little tired of you constantly making assertions like this without the slightest scrap of anything to back them up.  Especially when you contradict yourself immediately afterward.

Quote from: Lukvance
If God where to heal the amputee the consequences from this would be much worse that not healing him.
So your god is in fact constrained by these consequences you claim would come about because of him healing an amputee.  If he was not constrained by those consequences, then there would be no reason for him to refrain from healing amputees while granting miraculous healing to other people.

I don't think we know about the disruption of free will in the past. We don't know if there was or if there was no disruption.
So if you don't know if there ever was a disruption of "free will", how do you know it would come about if your god healed an amputee?

Quote from: Lukvance
For a miracle to occur it must be willed by the free will being involved.
Oh, really?  Kindly explain how this isn't "I don't know therefore magical free will and God must be involved".

Quote from: Lukvance
For example : someone who saw his hand healed and did not will for it to be healed. In that case there is no miracle. This person healing wasn't God's doing.
Do you even have the slightest clue of how ignorant you sound when you say things like this?  Do you truly think there is even a second that goes by when an amputee, or someone with a permanent injury, or who is afflicted by a long-term ailment, doesn't want to be healed?  Even years, decades afterward, I'm sure they still want to be healed, but they just get tired of waiting.

I had to wear thick glasses to correct my eyesight since I was six years old, until I got surgical correction about twenty years later (even then, it was a gift from my parents, as I didn't have the resources to pay for it and wouldn't have had them for some time).  Do you truly think that my eyesight could have magically been healed if I had just applied "free will" to the problem?  That if I had only prayed fervently enough often enough, your god might have eventually consented to fix my eyesight?

This is why all your talk about miracles rings false.  You don't even have a clue of what it would really take for a miracle, otherwise you wouldn't make up stuff like needing free will and all that nonsense.  I didn't get my eyesight fixed because of a miracle, I got my eyesight fixed because scientists figured out how to surgically implant lenses directly into the eye, and because my parents came into some extra money and decided to make sure I got something I'd been wanting ever since I had to start wearing glasses.  Even if they hadn't, I would probably have worked to earn the money to pay for the surgery myself, I hated wearing glasses that much.

So don't you tell me that people just need to apply "free will" and they can get a miracle.  Miracles don't happen because people wish for them, or because of magical "free will" or prayers to some god  They happen because people work to make them happen.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #723 on: June 23, 2014, 05:53:21 PM »
^^^^^Ooooooh, the universe will explode! You got new eyesight without getting permission from Lukvance's god!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #724 on: June 23, 2014, 06:08:48 PM »
God " healing" cancers does not violate free will,does God not healing it violate free will?
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