Author Topic: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?  (Read 7711 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6353
  • Darwins +747/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2014, 11:26:34 PM »
You standing assumption that we have any questions for you in the first place shows us where your ego is
Then tell me why did I create this thread. What triggered the need to create a new thread if it's not one question that has been asked to me (by epidemic)?

Now that you've proven my point by taking yourself too seriously, all we can do now is sit around watch.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2014, 11:27:59 PM »
PLUS : CMIL is not entitled to pronounce a cure "miraculous"; this can only be done by the Church
Means that the church make sure that it was indeed God.

Ah, so again you just take their word for it. You have no independent evidence by which to demonstrate a miracle has occurred. You just have hear-say. And you believe in these supernatural claims because you are practicing confirmation bias. You have a religious pre-commitment. Why pretend that your claims are on equal footing with demonstrable science when they are not?

Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2014, 11:30:11 PM »
Oh it was not a threat it is a deep desire. so back to your hypothesis based testing of miracles that are peer reviewed, did i miss the link? what journal was it in?
Signature goes here...

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2014, 11:32:29 PM »
Listen to yourself. You just so flippantly said the key word and yet skipped over it without even realizing what you were saying. INEXPLICABLE!

When something is inexplicable (meaning you don't know what happened), then you don't get to try to explain it by appealing to a "miracle" - because it is an argument from ignorance and you are contradicting yourself (saying on one hand that it's explainable, but then on the other hand trying to claim you've explained it). See this double standard you have?? 
Who is skipping words now? The article is clear : MEDICALLY inexplicable
There, you see? no more double standard.

This doesn't get you out of the problem, sorry. If something is medically inexplicable it doesn't give you (or anyone else) free license to claim magic. Again, you are trying to use "miracle" as a placeholder for your own ignorance. It's called The Argument From Incredulity Fallacy. Look it up because that is what you are doing and it is irrational. Natural remissions happen all the time. Rare occurrences happen all the time. This does not make them miracles. What it means is that we have not yet been able to explain them.

By your whack thinking, anytime we can't solve a murder right away we should jump to the supernatural in explaining it. FAIL.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.html
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2014, 11:35:40 PM »
Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Isn't that what you do with any bank?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2014, 11:38:16 PM »
Natural remissions happen all the time. Rare occurrences happen all the time. This does not make them miracles. What it means is that we have not yet been able to explain them.
I'm not telling you that you are wrong. If these natural remissions were not the result of prayer you would totally be right. But they are the result of prayer...that's why they are miracles.
You're worth more than my time

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2014, 11:41:37 PM »
Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Isn't that what you do with any bank?

Nope. I said magic potion. Are you going to keep obfuscating or actually address the points honestly?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2014, 11:44:42 PM »
Natural remissions happen all the time. Rare occurrences happen all the time. This does not make them miracles. What it means is that we have not yet been able to explain them.
I'm not telling you that you are wrong. If these natural remissions were not the result of prayer you would totally be right. But they are the result of prayer...that's why they are miracles.

But you don't know they are "the result of prayer". You are guessing - and being gullible regarding these supernatural claims. Correlation does not equal causation. You should know that. Again, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. It doesn't work. Just because two events happen one after the other it does not mean that one events caused the other. Someone can tap their feet together three times before they play the lottery and claim that their tapping made them win. But they would be making your same mistake. This is yet another irrational fallacy you are trying to prop up but it fails. You need to show a direct connection, not just a correlation.


http://www.miraclesceptic.com/lourdes.html#_FALSE_LOURDES_MIRACLES
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 11:49:00 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2014, 11:48:29 PM »
Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Isn't that what you do with any bank?
Nope. I said magic potion. Are you going to keep obfuscating or actually address the points honestly?
I know you said magic potion and salesman and door.
My question is related to a bank. They tell you your money is secure and you trust them. You don't go a visit their vault or ask for the specs of their buildings or...etc. They basically tells you "give us your money" and you say yes.
so again, you just take their word for it. You have no independent evidence by which to demonstrate they can hold your money safely. You just have hear-say. And you believe in these claims because you are practicing confirmation bias. You have a pre-commitment.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2014, 11:49:45 PM »
Median do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
You're worth more than my time

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2014, 11:56:15 PM »

My question is related to a bank. They tell you your money is secure and you trust them. You don't go a visit their vault or ask for the specs of their buildings or...etc. They basically tells you "give us your money" and you say yes.
so again, you just take their word for it. You have no independent evidence by which to demonstrate they can hold your money safely. You just have hear-say. And you believe in these claims because you are practicing confirmation bias. You have a pre-commitment.


No I do not just "take their word for it". You are, once again, drawing a false analogy between claims of the supernatural and claims that are not supernatural (as well as the false thinking that extraordinary non-demonstrable claims are on the same footing as ordinary demonstrable ones). You are engaging in irrational reasoning, and since I've already pointed it out at least twice now you are now practicing intellectual dishonesty.

We have tested and verified, and repeatable and demonstrable examples of the operation of banks (not pre-commitment - sorry!). I have been with my independently demonstrable bank (which are really just people) for over 20 years. I have actual demonstrable and sound repeatable physical evidence of the people who hold my funds at the bank and will render it to me upon my will. You do not have this with your alleged supernatural invisible "God". So once again, you are attempting to draw a false analogy (a logical fallacy).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2014, 12:18:28 AM »
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle
Or Those one

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.

Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2014, 12:52:25 AM »
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?

Not in an objective sense. Luck exists in a subjective sense, when we can't evaluate how the phenomena balances over a population which is looking for cases of "luck".

In the case of spontaneous remission of cancer, we almost have no figures on the rate, because doctors hate it, and they hate listening to stories about how their patient changed their hair style and took up acupuncture and ate indian foods. So, the cases are never published.
This is an alternative practitioner complaining about how doctors just don't want to know:
http://noetic.org/noetic/issue-seventeen-december/unexpected-remission/

http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/spring09/html/disc_remission.php

In order to prove that God was involved with remission, you have to show it's a different rate for different cultures who don't pray to God. If I got cancer, there would be someone praying for me, even though I'm an atheist. If I got better, that person would take credit for it.

There is weird shit in this world, but also a heap of people who just make stuff up and do hoaxes, because it's the easiest way to get loads of attention. God has to come out from behind "luck" and 1/100,000 cancer remission rates. In order to prove your sectarian Jesus/trinity claims, the rates need to be a lot bigger, and better reported, or you may well be barking up the wrong tree.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2014, 01:06:30 AM »
Hom the progression of the majority of cancers is to a large extent predictable . that's how treatments are planned. do you think planning is done randomly like a scatter gun?

every treatment plan is individual.


is it exact and perfect? Hell no but you don't want to kill the person to kill the cancer.


Teletherapy beams are precise to fractions of a millimetre and dose is delivered thru a non homogeneous body taking annoying things like spinal chord into account to miraculous levels of precision ...but it ain't a miracle.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 01:08:35 AM by eh! »
Signature goes here...

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2014, 01:15:07 AM »
Just to be clear and honest (no judgement or insults, please, we have enough of that)
What exactly are you expecting from me? Discussion while. What do you want to discuss?
You're worth more than my time

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2014, 01:20:33 AM »
Just to be clear and honest (no judgement or insults, please, we have enough of that)
What exactly are you expecting from me? Discussion while. What do you want to discuss?

I want you to actually backup your claims that you made earlier with actual demonstrable evidence - not hear-say, not anecdote, not obfuscation, not vague notions which are nowhere near extraordinary, but clear independently verifiable evidence (just like could be done with planetary motion or my bank). 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2014, 01:24:39 AM »
I just want you to face reality.
Signature goes here...

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2014, 01:25:54 AM »
I want you to actually backup your claims that you made earlier with actual demonstrable evidence - not hear-say, not anecdote, not obfuscation, not vague notions which are nowhere near extraordinary, but clear independently verifiable evidence (just like could be done with planetary motion or my bank). 
I claim many things. Witch one do you want me to back up?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2014, 01:29:12 AM »
I just want you to face reality.
What will make you say "Ok, now he faces reality"?
You're worth more than my time

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2014, 01:30:21 AM »
I claim many things. Witch one do you want me to back up?

Miracles happen, even today.
He [God] does manifest in the physical world.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2014, 01:36:42 AM »
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
If so :
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today?
If possible could you back up your answer?
You're worth more than my time

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2014, 01:45:25 AM »
When the mask drops and the scales fall from your eyes you won't need me to say anything.  in the meantime we are all trying to help you. consider us angels if you will but we are 100% human.
Signature goes here...

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2014, 01:49:29 AM »
When the mask drops and the scales fall from your eyes you won't need me to say anything.  in the meantime we are all trying to help you. consider us angels if you will but we are 100% human.
In this particular case. What are you expecting ME to say?
You're worth more than my time

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6353
  • Darwins +747/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2014, 02:25:34 AM »
post removed. I tried something and it didn't work. Life is like that sometimes.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2014, 02:30:05 AM »
^ The lawd moveth in mysterious ways.....
Signature goes here...

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2014, 03:26:32 AM »
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
If so :
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today?
If possible could you back up your answer?

This goes back to the "cloak and dagger" shit. Any sect can claim some "lucky" event validates their position. Using the erratic path of disease progression is (1) not very verifiable, (2) non sect specific (3) not distinguishable from normal luck.

Essentially, if we look at the evidence that God is supposedly supplying you, then he doesn't really want to be identified, or associated with any sect. If God really wants to be known, he can make the sky rain iguanas, but we are so far away from that level of proof, that it's "cloak and daggers".

If I throw a succession of sixes and win a board game, then this is called luck, but it's obviously not very lucky, and probably not from God. If I throw another 6, then is it from God? Does God only act through really lucky events, and risk showing himself, or does he only work through mundane manipulations? If I was God, I could achieve my purpose through mundane manipulations, without revealing things which were especially "lucky". If I wanted to really reveal myself, I could just turn up and speak to people. Why leave them to guess whether I did something, when I really didn't? Is God taking credit for cures that he didn't do?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6611
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2014, 05:35:27 AM »
Miracle of Lanciano Wiki

Here is your Miracle of Lanciano Wiki

Quote
In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around 700, a Basilian hieromonk was assigned to celebrate Mass in the small church of St. Longinus. Celebrating in the Latin Rite and using unleavened bread, the monk had doubts about the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.[1][2]

During the Mass, when he said the Words of Consecration ("This is my body. This is my blood"), with doubt in his soul, the priest is said to have seen the bread change into living flesh and the wine change into live blood which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size (the number supposedly corresponds to the number of wounds Christ suffered on the cross:

The first thing that the astute reader sees is that
there is no healing of amputees.
the event was 1400 years ago
there was no independent witnesses as to how in 700 AD the priest prepared the bread and wine.
there is nothing at all to say that what appeared was caused by a god.
the flesh and blood is quite clearly believed to be that of Christ - however, there is no evidence at all of this.
although, at the moment, a natural explanation has not been found, this does not mean that you can insert some fairytale of your own making.
The state of forensic science in 1970 is nowhere near as good as it is today
The sample is not kept securely.

And here http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/17746/did-the-miracle-of-lanciano-turn-bread-and-wine-into-flesh-and-blood
Quote
The only evidence for this transformation occurring is the long-ago testimony of a monk sometime near the year 700:

    During the 700th year of Our Lord [...] a monk of the Order of St. Basil was celebrating Holy Mass according to the Latin Rite. Although his name is unknown, it is reported in an ancient document that he was "... versed in the sciences of the world, but ignorant in that of God." (Cruz 1984, at p. 10)

With this being so long ago, and very little documentation surrounding the incident, I would treat descriptions of what happened as hearsay.

Philosopher David Hume explained:

    No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.

In this case the testimony's hearsay nature makes the likelihood of its falsehood quite high.

Meanwhile, science has a very solid understanding of matter and chemistry. Under our current understanding, such a transformation is not possible. The likelihood of that being so substantially incorrect that bread could transform to flesh and blood in the hands of a doubting priest is very, very low.

This hearsay account is not enough to be persuasive that a miracle occurred.
References

Joan Carroll Cruz. Relics. Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 1984.

You may also wish to look at: http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/07/a-eucharistic-miracle-or-just-disgusting/

and the quite funny "Miracle of the Bats' Piss" http://boingboing.net/2012/04/13/indian-skeptic-charged-with.html

So much for "miracles"
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 06:24:52 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Defiance

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
  • Darwins +26/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2014, 06:57:59 AM »
So basically the church is in charge of judging if it itself is lying or not, and the actual scientific community has no say in it?

Haha, nice one.

And here you go, about the spontaneous cancer recovery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission


(Link corrected,
GB Mod)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 12:54:10 PM by Graybeard »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.