Author Topic: Why theists get sad when someone dies?  (Read 2252 times)

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Offline Lectus

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Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« on: April 05, 2014, 10:23:12 AM »
Imagining that paradise is a perfect place full of joy, without any disease or suffering, they should vibrate of happiness when someone goes to paradise/heaven.

This life should be as short as possible when you have a much better place to go.

Do they deep inside know this is the only life?
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 10:26:14 AM »
Do they deep inside know this is the only life?

That would be my guess. When people are put under pressure, they show their true colors.
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2014, 03:00:48 PM »
I mean let's try and see another way.

People sometimes feel as if they failed the person who died, as if it might be their fault that they died, in some way.

However, I have a hard time believing that "even they know their belief is false". Who WANTS to have a false belief? Who wants to go around fully supporting and advertising their belief when they know it's wrong?

It may just be that they miss them, regardless of their belief that the dead person is somewhere else. Maybe it's just a biological drive, that we dont like seeing dying people, as it seems as threat to our survival as well.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2014, 04:16:13 PM »
Imagining that paradise is a perfect place full of joy, without any disease or suffering, they should vibrate of happiness when someone goes to paradise/heaven.

This life should be as short as possible when you have a much better place to go.

Do they deep inside know this is the only life?

Theists, like atheists, are human (believe it or not).  Therefore, when a friend or relative dies, it is natural to be sad. 

For some, belief in an afterlife is consoling and allows acceptance of the person's death easier to accept.  For others, the memories of the person is sufficient solace. 

I've attended traditional church services and "memorial" services where people shared their memories of the deceased.  Both had meaning to the participants. 

Not sure I've added anything to this discussion so will quit while behind.

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2014, 04:23:08 PM »
Theists, like atheists, are human (believe it or not).  Therefore, when a friend or relative dies, it is natural to be sad. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but I call bullshit. I've never been sad at a funeral. At least not for the deceased. I've been sad for the family (not me) of the deceased who were mourning (again, not me), but not the deceased himself/herself. In fact, I don't see death as much of a big deal as most people do. It is the end of all things. Even the Universe will die, be it a heat death or by returning to the singularity from whence it came. It is not rational to feel sad for it, IMO, seeing as how it's inevitable.[1]

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One
 1. Which is not to say that I don't feel sad for inevitable things. Nobody is 100% rational 100% of the time.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2014, 04:26:19 PM »
Theists, like atheists, are human (believe it or not).  Therefore, when a friend or relative dies, it is natural to be sad. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but I call bullshit. I've never been sad at a funeral. At least not for the deceased. I've been sad for the family (not me) of the deceased who were mourning (again, not me), but not the deceased himself/herself. In fact, I don't see death as much of a big deal as most people do. It is the end of all things. Even the Universe will die, be it a heat death or by returning to the singularity from whence it came. It is not rational to feel sad for it, IMO, seeing as how it's inevitable.[1]

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Honestly,

One
 1. Which is not to say that I don't feel sad for inevitable things. Nobody is 100% rational 100% of the time.

No offense taken. 

As always,

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2014, 04:37:34 PM »
No offense taken. 

...And your response to what I said would be...?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Since always,

One
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Dominic

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2014, 04:43:11 PM »
Imagining that paradise is a perfect place full of joy, without any disease or suffering, they should vibrate of happiness when someone goes to paradise/heaven.

This life should be as short as possible when you have a much better place to go.

Do they deep inside know this is the only life?

If we were perfect and knew our deceased relatives were in heaven then yes we should be extremely happy.

But being imperfect we selfishly want our relatives physically with us (not all of them but definitely the favourite ones) and so we miss them when they go.  It's a part of being human.

And then there is the occasional fear that our relative may have not made it to heaven or (for us Catholics) that they may be spending time in purgatory 'doing some time' for their misdeeds.  So not knowing exact details means it's not all beer and skittles for us left behind either.



Offline eh!

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2014, 04:59:34 PM »
I worked in an oncology ward, trust me theists in general will cling to every second of life they can be artificially propped up with courtesy of medical physics, chem and biol.


even the ones that resist/refuse treatment cos faith healing or accepting god plan will demand treatment in the later stages and desert their faith principles.


having said that in the final stages atheist are vulnerable. to conversion. due to predatory theists scaring them with thoughts of what will happen in the afterlife.


then there's the guys who will run happily to their deaths to hook up with the virgins they been promised for martydom.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2014, 05:11:46 PM »
Dom you catholics seem to flip flop a lot on the issue of hell and purgayory.   And heaven for that matter. do you think evangalicals, muslims, atheists.... etc can get to heaven, protetestants that kill catholics, Catholics. that kill protestants, priests that rape kids, leaders that know but do not report priests that rape kids, womsan that have abortions, catholics that provided safe passage to nazis? Can they all get to heaven. ask for forgiveness lol.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 05:17:14 PM by eh! »
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Offline Dominic

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 05:44:11 PM »
Dom you catholics seem to flip flop a lot on the issue of hell and purgayory.   And heaven for that matter. do you think evangalicals, muslims, atheists.... etc can get to heaven, protetestants that kill catholics, Catholics. that kill protestants, priests that rape kids, leaders that know but do not report priests that rape kids, womsan that have abortions, catholics that provided safe passage to nazis? Can they all get to heaven. ask for forgiveness lol.

Off topic.  PM me if you seriously want a response.

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 06:00:00 PM »
Actually i would prefer to start a new topic on catholic teachings of heaven hell purgartory and how get into them. throw in the idea of praying for forgiveness the role of confession and good old catholic guilt sprinkled with the relic and saint industry.. caching$$. Would you participate in such a thread?? It will be made just for you.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 07:03:28 PM »
Don't take this the wrong way, but I call bullshit. I've never been sad at a funeral. At least not for the deceased. I've been sad for the family (not me) of the deceased who were mourning (again, not me), but not the deceased himself/herself. In fact, I don't see death as much of a big deal as most people do. It is the end of all things. Even the Universe will die, be it a heat death or by returning to the singularity from whence it came. It is not rational to feel sad for it, IMO, seeing as how it's inevitable.
Then I take it you've never lost someone you're very close to.  Because it's pure agony to look at their dead body and to know that this person you really cared about, you'll never see them again.  Of the two grandparents I really cared about (out of six; my mom's parents divorced and remarried separately), I have one left.  When the other one died, several years back, and I saw her body at the funeral, I felt like I'd been stabbed (and this was without having really spent much time around her for several years, due to distance).  And it was worse once the memories started.  It still hurts even today, although it's not the trauma it was at first.  I'm not especially eager to find out how I'll react when it's one of my immediate family or close friends who dies.

Knowing that someone you care about will eventually die is nothing like confronting the reality of their death, and it's not something you can really be prepared for, even if you've lost someone before, because the circumstances differ.

Offline eh!

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 07:10:33 PM »
Dogs will mourn the loss of a pack member, proof of god?
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2014, 08:19:08 PM »
No offense taken. 

...And your response to what I said would be...?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

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One

My response to what you said is that you have expressed an opinion which works for you.  It seems silly to argue the point with something like "your opinion is wrong since it runs counter to my opinion" or "your opinion is wrong because I don't think you are in touch with your true feelings" or "your opinion is wrong.....[fill in the blank]". 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

BTW, I am truly flattered you are adding a closing signature to our exchanges. 
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Offline Jag

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2014, 09:29:01 AM »
Actually i would prefer to start a new topic on catholic teachings of heaven hell purgartory and how get into them. throw in the idea of praying for forgiveness the role of confession and good old catholic guilt sprinkled with the relic and saint industry.. caching$$. Would you participate in such a thread?? It will be made just for you.

I set aside my Catholic upbringing as a teenager, recognizing that there were parts of the theology that simply made no sense no matter how I tried to make them fit. I'd be interested in a thread on this topic. I don't think we've had a discussion on catholicism specifically since Maggie was hanging around...
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2014, 10:03:05 AM »
...
having said that in the final stages atheist are vulnerable. to conversion. due to predatory theists scaring them with thoughts of what will happen in the afterlife...

Do you have any evidence to support this? In my experience, it is not true, and I believe this is merely speculation on theist's part.
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2014, 10:57:38 AM »
I posted this awhile back:



    Tom, Dick, and Harry are true believers in a loving Creator of the universe and a Heaven that believers go to when they die. They all go out to lunch one day. In the middle of their lunch, Tom realizes that he forgot something in his car, which is parked across the street. As Tom attempts to cross the street, he gets run over by a bus and is so mangled that any observer would know he is dead. It's a gruesome sight. Dick and Harry were witnessing the entire event through the window that was near where they were sitting.

Dick: Oh, Lord!

Harry: I can't believe it!

    The initial excitement that these two men feel lasts for about fifteen or twenty minutes, though slowly waning. After that their conversation goes something like:

Dick: It's weird that the Creator of the universe made it so that some people's departure from this world appears so gruesome. It's so beautiful though.

Harry: Yeah. Little did we know, it was Tom's special day, today. Our time will come soon enough. This life is miniscule when compared to all eternity. I can't wait.



    This is how the conversation should go, if Dick and Harry's reality is that when you die, there is a much better place waiting for you.

    The best excuse that I can think of for "believers" mourning the dead is:

    They are going to really miss the deceased "believer" until they are reunited with him/her again. If that's the case, the older a believer is, the less they should mourn(on average). I have yet to see a statistic that confirms this. Nothing but downright hypocrisy, I say.
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2014, 01:33:24 PM »
Then I take it you've never lost someone you're very close to.
<snip>

Sure... It was just my great-aunt, her brother, and her son (though not in that order), the latter of whom I spent a lot of time with during my childhood.

My response to what you said is that you have expressed an opinion which works for you.  It seems silly to argue the point with something like "your opinion is wrong since it runs counter to my opinion" or "your opinion is wrong because I don't think you are in touch with your true feelings" or "your opinion is wrong.....[fill in the blank]". 

I won't lie; I was expecting you to claim my opinion/feeling was wrong based on your opinion/feeling, as most people do. However, I only looked forward to it because it would mean you would share your opinion, as jaimehlers did. In other words, I want your opinion.

As always,

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BTW, I am truly flattered you are adding a closing signature to our exchanges. 

The point is to show you (and others like you) how silly it is. Your name is on the left side of your post. Doing what you do is irrelevant and shows self-centeredness/narcissism.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2014, 03:13:14 PM »
...
having said that in the final stages atheist are vulnerable. to conversion. due to predatory theists scaring them with thoughts of what will happen in the afterlife...

Do you have any evidence to support this? In my experience, it is not true, and I believe this is merely speculation on theist's part.


yes, as i said, i worked in an oncology lab. watching people progress to death is a daily event.  just sayin people will say do anything when they KNOW there is nothing more that can be done. it is sad nothing more or less.

Small amendment to tone of reply
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 03:23:18 PM by Graybeard »
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2014, 06:14:22 PM »
I dunno, isn't saying that 'deep down, theists know there is no afterlife' tantamount to the theist saying 'deep down, atheists know there is a god'? I know how pissed off the latter statement makes me feel...

I have to agree with One. It's grief for those left behind, it's grief for your own loss, not grief for the person who is gone.

That being said, it doesn't make it any easier.

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2014, 09:11:14 PM »

Quote
My response to what you said is that you have expressed an opinion which works for you.  It seems silly to argue the point with something like "your opinion is wrong since it runs counter to my opinion" or "your opinion is wrong because I don't think you are in touch with your true feelings" or "your opinion is wrong.....[fill in the blank]". 

Quote
I won't lie; I was expecting you to claim my opinion/feeling was wrong based on your opinion/feeling, as most people do. However, I only looked forward to it because it would mean you would share your opinion, as jaimehlers did. In other words, I want your opinion.

We are all the sum of our experiences.  I may disagree with your opinion but that does not mean mine is superior or inferior.  In this case, I don't have a frame of reference to the idea it is irrational to feel sad since death is inevitable for all life as well as the known universe.  I cannot say I understand how you can be so seemingly detached about such an event.  But, just because I can't relate with your view doesn't mean it is wrong.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

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One

BTW, I am truly flattered you are adding a closing signature to our exchanges. 

The point is to show you (and others like you) how silly it is. Your name is on the left side of your post. Doing what you do is irrelevant and shows self-centeredness/narcissism.
[/quote]

Perhaps I am silly.  Never thought of it as self-centeredness / narcissism.  You may very well be right. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2014, 10:39:35 PM »
Don't worry OCG, I don't find your sign-off to be in any way pretentious, I actually find it quite old fashioned and charming.
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2014, 04:27:20 AM »
...
having said that in the final stages atheist are vulnerable. to conversion. due to predatory theists scaring them with thoughts of what will happen in the afterlife...

Do you have any evidence to support this? In my experience, it is not true, and I believe this is merely speculation on theist's part.

He has misinterpreted what he sees, or made it up. I have been in a situation where I did not expect to be alive the next morning. The last thing on my mind was fantasies about Hell or making up gods to pray to. If you don't believe them you won't make them up at the last minute. (Unless you are suffering from brain damage or senility, or are drugged, then you might, but it wouldn't really be you anymore.)
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2014, 04:45:11 AM »
Well actually i meant people in palliative care where doctors cease treatment and tell the patient to get their affairs in order. tthe various theists occupy and comfort them if allowed SOME patients in this position are vulnerable, some are angry, some just accept it and spend their little time preparing their loved ones for the inevitable.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2014, 06:45:03 AM »

And then there is the occasional fear that our relative may have not made it to heaven or (for us Catholics) that they may be spending time in purgatory 'doing some time' for their misdeeds.  So not knowing exact details means it's not all beer and skittles for us left behind either.

Another reason why religion is a disgrace to God.  Freedom from religion means freedom from fear of a wrathful God.

My cousin just lost her fiance.  She is afraid he went to hell because he was not a charitable man. :o  I consoled her by abolishing hell.  It does not exist anymore. :angel:

My dad was scared of hell because he was divorced and remarried.  When my mom died he insinuated she would go to hell.  I wanted to knock my father out.  Tell him if hell is real he'd be joining her.  My dad was a very self centered man.  When my brother died, a convicted child molester, he was sure he would go to heaven.   

My own experience with belief in an afterlife is that belief has caused me to want to go there many times and leave this place of suffering.  I have begged God many times to, "let me come home", I am still here but my heart's not in it most of the time.  I feel so helpless to make the change I want to see in the world and the suffering breaks my heart.  Not just my own but the entire world.  I don't know how to get it off my shoulders.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 06:54:16 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2014, 08:04:02 AM »
JB, you make a difference by posting here. People can read what you write, but you can't force people to be different.

One of the problems about believing in an afterlife is it can make people value this life less. I heard on the radio about a whole church full of Christians who committed suicide together.  I think it was in Korea.
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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2014, 08:15:46 AM »
Jb, u owe it to yrself to maintain man  and let this bitch play out. Don't let the airheads win. Strength bro.
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Offline Dominic

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Re: Why theists get sad when someone dies?
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2014, 09:07:35 AM »

And then there is the occasional fear that our relative may have not made it to heaven or (for us Catholics) that they may be spending time in purgatory 'doing some time' for their misdeeds.  So not knowing exact details means it's not all beer and skittles for us left behind either.

Another reason why religion is a disgrace to God.  Freedom from religion means freedom from fear of a wrathful God.


 jb

What do you think of this from C S Lewis -

I believe in Purgatory.

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the 'Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become.....

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

  - C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109