Author Topic: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)  (Read 545 times)

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Offline JeR

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this was posted on Worthy Christian Forums, I know there are some here smarter than I that can demolish it - thanks (keep in mind, bible quotes are scientific evidence over there)...:

Greetings,
My Presupposition:  "Secular" science is evil and is the hand of satan.  Rationale?  ....

(Genesis 3:1-4) "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?  {2} And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:  {3} But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.  {4} And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"

GOD tipped satan's hand and revealed his core tactics in Genesis 3:

1. Create Doubt
2. Outright Denial of the WORD

What "Establishment"/Organization on the Planet Earth and on a MASSIVE SCALE attempts to Cast the Most DOUBT and then Outright Denial of the Existence of GOD, Bar None???  "Secular" Science.

Well alrighty then, please watch this in it's Entirety (You Tube Documentary):  Universe - Episode 1 - The Cosmology Quest - The Electric Universe and Plasma Physics.

The Video Systematically, Comprehensively, and Unequivocally Renders:  The Big Bang, Science Search for Truth, "Light Year" Distances, Peer Review, et al:  A Laughing Stalk right BELOW 13th Century Alchemy and Phlogiston!!

Basically, A VERY LARGE BODY of Astronomy/Cosmology/Astrophysics has it's basis in Red Shift.  Red Shift or Hubble's Law states that Galaxies and the Universe is Expanding and Distances can be obtained by analyzing their Red Shift or shifts in their Color Spectra... the further away, the Larger the "Red Shift".

But in the 1960's Astronomers like Halton "Chip" Arp discovered QSO's (Quasar Stellar Objects) that are "Attached" to Galaxies with "Extremely" Different Red Shifts than their Parent/Neighbor Galaxies.
These data and research was subsequently "SQUASHED" by "Secular" science to defend the Big Bang and Light Year Distance fiasco. (Black Listing/Funding/Expelled et al)

"The Peer Review System and NASA itself which is very conformist will always do just that, that's one of the reasons why the Road ahead is hammered out, as {Fred}Hoyle said, anytime you point a New Telescope to the sky now you're only going to find what you already know is up there".
Geoffrey Burbridge PhD Astrophysics, Director Kitt Peak National Observatory

Sounds like the Quest for TRUTH to Me!!!!
 

Lets do Specifics, shall we.....

NGC 7603 and Companion Galaxy with 2 QSO's in the Arm.  The arm has the same "Red Shift" as NGC 7603 but the 2 QSO's and Companion Galaxy are all different!!!!

López-Corredoira & Gutiérrez (2002).....

"We have clearly shown that two of the compact emission lines objects in the filament have redshifts very much greater than those of NGC7603 and its companion galaxy. Thus we have presented a very well known system with anomalous redshifts, NGC 7603, to be an apparently much more anomalous than was previously thought. There are 4 objects with very different redshifts apparently connected by a filament associated with the lower redshift galaxy. This system is at present the most spectacular case that we know among the candidates for anomalous redshift."

http://adsabs.harvar...A&A...390L..15L

NGC 4319 and it's Companion Markarian 205 Discordant Redshifts:

http://adsabs.harvar...ApJ...265L..49S

This one caused quite a stir back in the day LOL. Even Unsolicited Government Supported Institution Press Releases Exclaiming there was no connection with the Two Galaxies.  Complete with Doctored Photos!!....Photo manipulation comments from video above.

Note PIC NGC 4319 E1 (3rd Pic from left) in the magnified isophote view of the 2002 Photo reveals there is a distention of the shape of the Mark 205 inner isophotes back toward NGC 4319. There are also a series of secondary masses within Mark 205 on a line connecting 4319 and the center of Mark 205.

Naaa, There is no Paradigm to be defended.... @ THE HIGHEST LEVELS.  Wonder who's up there?  See Daniel 10: 13-20 for some perspective.

Jack Sulentic Professor Astronomy and Astrophysics, Comments from You Tube Interview Above:

"There was a famous paper that claimed to show that there was no connection between NGC 4319 and the Quasar Markanian 205, so @ that time I had the opportunity to work at JPL using the new image processing facilities that had been developed for the Voyager Program; in fact, and it took 1 Hours Effort to show there was some kind of a Luminous Feature between those 2 Objects....there's NO Question.... and it cannot be dismissed in the ways that it was dismissed."

Regarding the Press Release and Pics {NGC 4319 and Markarian 205} from a Government Supported Agency (NASA and the Hubble Heritage Team) in 2002.....

"No Connection {Laughing} between the two objects.  So I looked @ their picture then I downloaded it and it took me 5 Minutes to show that it's still there {Laughing}....but I was really surprised that they they felt it necessary to issue a Press Release saying it's not there; it's not real, when, it's the same thing we saw 20 years ago."

"It's a strange attitude, I don't understand it as a scientist, really....but, to just sort of close the door; in a way you could argue....I interpret that as a manifestation of Fear and Uncertainty because if I really had confidence in my Paradigm, I'd put it right out there and say, Well Yes, there is a Bridge there but it's either this explanation or that explanation....but instead to just say it just isn't there, that's a manifestation of Fear, I Think."

"You don't get tenor @ University, you don't get promoted, you don't get recognition, by looking too much into unpopular areas".

"I remember one famous group, I asked them; how do resolve disagreements amongst yourselves? And the reply was "WE VOTE".  And I thought what a strange thing to do in science....Vote??

Margaret Burbidge Astrophysicist (Director of the Royal Greenwich Observatory) comments regarding NGC 4319:

"The Theoreticians ought to be really looking @ this Theoretical problem and the Observers ought to be gathering much more data of the sort that we get; but I think they're all a little scared because it's an unpopular subject.  They're worried about their Jobs and they're worried about moving on up the ladder if they're Post Docs."

And to put the "Cherry on Top"....

NGC 7319 and it's QSO:

News Article:  http://ucsdnews.ucsd...ce/mcquasar.asp

Tech Paper:http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0409215

How could a galaxy 360 million light years away contain a stellar object 35 billion light years away?  Laughing Out Loud!!

Source:  http://creation.com/...-lower-redshift

"Quasar with enormous red shift found embedded in a nearby spiral Galaxy with a far lower red shift:  Unsolvable riddle for Big Bang astronomy."This changes the whole view of the universe--big bang astronomy will never be the same...by Dr. John G Hartnett, Australia  12 Jan 2005.

So what is the big deal? This is the big deal...

'The ejection-of-quasars-from-galaxies interpretation is vigorously rejected by the big bang community.  Obviously this is because it utterly demolishes their key assumption of the genesis of all matter at the big bang.  Also it calls into question many redshift-distances determined by quasar redshifts.  In the section “Alternatives to the big bang” on page 393 of his book,6 Joseph Silk … admits, “Only by disputing the interpretation of quasar redshifts as a cosmological distance indicator can this conclusion be avoided” [my emphasis added]. This is, in fact, the main thrust of Arp’s observations!  They cast enormous doubt on the distribution of galaxies in the universe and the interpretation of big bang expansion models".7

Martin Lopez Corredoria PhD Astronomer...

"Cosmology is not Science".

"Don't collaborate with "Chip" Arp because if you do that you will have problems to get a position in such a place, I receive such a Black Mail".

Who's Running the Show?? ....for now.  Until the Largest Escrow Closing in the History of The Universe comes in the CLOUDS!....HE'S @ The DOOR.

Praise The LORD!!!!!!

Thanks for your Attention.  Have a Blessed Day

As you seemed unable to do it, I have reformatted the above to save the planet from being taken over by white space. Hopefully, it has made your content a little more accessible.

GB Mod


 



« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 04:27:56 PM by Graybeard »
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 07:36:45 PM »
I'm satisfied by the clarification made possible by Hubble, which shows that the light from the Quasar, which is indeed 1.2 billion (the only place I find the 35 billion year number is in these accusations)light years away, vs the 70 or so for the galaxy. But Hubble shows that it is merely the light passing through the disk and the halo of the galaxy that makes it look like they are connected.

Wrong numbers, can't spell "tenure", is better at making large spaces between paragraphs than doing research, and wanting it to be true; all combine to make for a typically spittle-soaked proclamation of wrongness. I wouldn't worry about it.

Sadly, you can't reason with peopled for whom reason is a dirty word. They look at you funny. We're going to have to wait until such folks die off naturally.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online wright

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2014, 07:45:08 PM »
JeR, a link to where this was originally posted would be appreciated.

This seems to be fairly standard creationist gobbledigook, though at least the author says so right up front. I'd like to call this a Poe, but it probably isn't.

When a creationist apologetic mentions the Great Conspiracy of Science as often as this one does, that's a big red flag. It simply isn't credible that tens of thousands of astronomers and cosmologists worldwide would engage in covering up something as potentially revolutionary as the rewriting of universal origins (not to mention much of physics). There's too much competition in the various fields for at least a few dozen of those thousands of people to not be interested in actual evidence that seemed to contradict mainstream cosmology.

In other words, if there was something that could be verified about claims like these, those phenomenon would be investigated. They would definitely attract the same level of interest and attention as dark matter, dark energy, gravitational lensing, string theory and other concepts currently being looked at and tested.

None of the links provided seem to work, btw.

Here are some links to refutations of some of this clown's claims. I certainly don't expect them to convince dedicated creationists, but so little does. Still, for the sake of completion...

On the idea that the Big Bang has been "disproven"...
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE420.html
 
That physical constants (the speed of light, etc.) "are only assumed to be constant"...
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE410.html

And refuting the Electric Universe theory that a lot of creationists and Big Science Conspiracy cranks seem to love...
http://briankoberlein.com/2014/02/25/testing-electric-universe/

Edit: found a better Electric Universe link.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 07:53:16 PM by wright »
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 09:30:33 PM »
Well, first off, nobody's denied that quasars exist.  Indeed, the very name quasar means "quasi-stellar", and they're currently believed to be radiation releases from supermassive black holes.  A quasar is so luminous that it effectively outshines the galaxy that it's in, unless you use very sensitive instrumentation - it's like a spotlight shining directly at you from a house some distance away; you wouldn't be able to see the lights of the house without very sensitive equipment because the spotlight would wash them all out.

It's certainly true that some discrepancies regarding quasar distance have been discovered.  The point is that it's secular scientists who discovered these oddities and are actively questioning them; so much for a secular conspiracy!  Finding exceptions to Hubble's Law doesn't disprove it or Big Bang theory; it simply means we must account for those exceptions.  That's how science works.  For example, scientists apparently discovered a relatively close quasar in Cygnus A (3C405) (within a billion light-years or so).  That's what I mean when I say that scientists must account for exceptions to believed rules.

Also, there are secular scientists who support a non-cosmological explanation for quasar redshifts.  They usually point to apparent relationships between relatively low-redshift galaxies and relatively high-redshift quasars.  But there are alternate explanations for them too, such as that the quasars are essentially shining through the galaxy in question.  In other words, contrary to what these people would like to believe, this is nothing more than the standard procedure for science.  They can blather all they want about it being an "unsolvable riddle" for the Big Bang theory, but it is hardly that. 

Offline Fiji

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2014, 12:06:30 AM »
As an aside, these Days Science is seen as "from the Devil", in times past ( eg the 16th century) people saw the bible as their license to do science ... Funny how that works, isn't it?
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline JeR

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2014, 10:09:00 AM »
JeR, a link to where this was originally posted would be appreciated.


thanks all for the replies...great point on the link...here it is:  http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/177846-red-shift-death-knell-for-big-bang-starlight-distance/

I should have asked in the OP, but do I have permission from you all to craft a reply based on your comments?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 10:15:29 AM by JeR »
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
                     -Jefferson

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2014, 10:48:19 AM »
JeR, a link to where this was originally posted would be appreciated.


thanks all for the replies...great point on the link...here it is:  http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/177846-red-shift-death-knell-for-big-bang-starlight-distance/

I should have asked in the OP, but do I have permission from you all to craft a reply based on your comments?

I didn't participate in this thread, but if you are going to craft a reply based on these comments, I recommend that you point to this topic and encourage interested parties to join the fray here.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2014, 10:57:22 AM »
^^^ Fine with me. I would think you could rephrase everything you wanted to say in such a way as to craft an answer without offending any of us. But I'm not the boss here, so you should probably wait to see what the others say.

The main point, though, is that people who don't want a rational answer are ready-made to not accept one. Once they are willing to ditch science for their cause, they've already hit rock bottom and can therefore create any explanation they want. In this case they are willing to accept the appearance of a "connection" over a reliance on measuring red shift, because their goal is not accuracy. Their goal is to denigrate science and belittle those of us who appreciate and trust things like observation and facts and measurements and stuff.

In other words, when truth isn't a concern, you don't have to work it into your answer.

You can use that as verbatim as you want.

And I agree with jdawg70. Invite 'em over. We haven't had lunch yet, and a tasty theist burger would be great about now.

Edit: for clarity
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online wright

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2014, 12:33:01 PM »
I should have asked in the OP, but do I have permission from you all to craft a reply based on your comments?

It's always nice to be asked. Feel free, as long as there's a link to this thread included; that way our original words are available to any interested parties. Just don't expect to impact creationist mindsets with mere facts.

And thanks for the link requested  ;).
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline JeR

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 01:09:37 PM »
I should have asked in the OP, but do I have permission from you all to craft a reply based on your comments?

It's always nice to be asked. Feel free, as long as there's a link to this thread included; that way our original words are available to any interested parties. Just don't expect to impact creationist mindsets with mere facts.

And thanks for the link requested  ;).

I'm afraid if I link to this site they will give me the boot...  :)
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
                     -Jefferson

Online wright

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2014, 01:14:36 PM »
^^^Unless they're paying you money, I'm not sure how that's a bad thing... ;).

Seriously, please do include a link if at all possible. If you really can't, then at least make it clear that others at this site contributed to your post.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline JeR

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 04:16:01 PM »
did my own research and came up with this...http://starburstfound.org/sqkblog/?p=138



Observation of a high redshift quasar in the low redshift galaxy NGC 7319 could refute black hole theory
  By admin | March 14, 2011 - 6:34 pm | Cosmology, galactic astronomy

Spiral galaxy NGC 7319 showing position of high-redshift quasar. Credit: NASA
In 2005 a quasar with redshift z = 2.11 was discovered near the core of active galaxy NGC 7319 which is a low redshift galaxy (z = 0.0225) in Stephen’s Quintet that is located about 360 million light years away.  As noted in a UC San Diego news release, this presents a problem for standard theory which customarily places a quasar with such a large redshift at a distance of about 10 billion light years, or 30 times further away.  The finding that the NGC 7319 quasar is actually a member of a low redshift galaxy, indicates that the quasar’s redshift is neither due to cosmological expansion nor to tired-light redshifting, but to some other cause.  This validates Halton Arp’s theory that most of the redshift seen in quasars has a noncosmological origin.

There are two reasons to conclude that this quasar is associated with this particular galaxy.  First, the dust in this part of the galaxy is so dense that it is unlikely that light from a distant quasar would be able to be visible through it.  Second, a jet is seen to connect the active nucleus of NGC 7319 with this quasar suggesting that the quasar source was ejected from the core of NGC 7319.

One likely cause of the quasar’s nonvelocity redshifting is gravitational redshifting of its emitted light.  This mechanism rules out the possibility that the quasar is a black hole since to develop a redshift of 2.09 (2.11 – 0.02), the spectral lines would have had to be generated at a point that would lie within any hypothetical black hole event horizon.  Black hole theory, however, forbids any such radiation from escaping the black hole.  Consequently, we are left to conclude that the quasar is not a black hole but a “mother star” and that the observed redshifted emission consists of emission line photons that have redshifted as they have climbed out of the quasar’s deep gravity well.

How we arrive at the above conclusion may be explained as follows.  The gravity potential of a star varies as M/R, where M is stellar mass and R is stellar radius and redshift z varies in direct proportion to the change in the ambient gravity potential as the photon escapes the quasar’s gravity well.  For the white dwarf Sirius B, z = 3 X 10-4 and its M/R =  4.2 X 1024 g/cm.  This quasar has a redshift relative to that of NGC 7319 of z = 2.09, which is ~7000 larger than that of Sirius B.  Consequently, if the quasar’s redshift is entirely gravitational, its line emission comes from a region whose gravity potential is 7000 times more negative than Sirius B, hence from a region outside the core where M/R = 2.9 X 1028 g/cm.  If the quasar core, then, is assumed to have a mass of one million solar masses, this redshifted emission would have to originate at a radial distance of 2 X 1039/2.9 X 1028 = 6.8 X 105 km, or about one solar radius from the gravity well’s center.

If, on the other hand, the quasar is assumed to have a mass of ten million solar masses, the redshifted emission would have to originate at a radial distance of 6.8 X 106 km, or about 9.8 solar radii from the well’s center.

Now according to black hole theory, the Schwartzchild radius for a one million solar mass black hole would have a radius of 3.1 million km, equal to 4.5 solar radii.  But, due to gravitational lensing, its Schwarzschild event horizon should appear to us to have a radius of 16 million km (5.2 times larger than the Schwarzschild radius).  So, in this case, the quasar’s redshifted light would be coming from a radius almost 24 times smaller than its apparent Schwarzschild radius, an impossibility in black hole theory.

We get a similar result if the quasar core is assumed to have a larger mass.  For example, if it were to have a mass of ten million solar masses, its redshifted emission would have to originate at a radial distance of 6.8 X 106 km, or about 9.8 solar radii from the well’s center.  A ten million solar mass black hole, on the other hand, would have a Schwartzchild radius of 31 million km or 45 solar radii, and taking gravitational lensing into account, would appear to have a radius of 234 solar radii.  So, again, the redshift of this quasar indicates that the emission has come from a radius almost 24 times smaller than the event horizon radius.

In the case where the quasar were instead a supermassive stellar core, a mother star radiating prodigious quantities of genic energy, it would have to have a radius equal to or less than the above estimated emission radius.  If we assume for simplicity that the emission line radiation comes from the star’s surface, then in the case of a one million solar mass mother star, the star would have a density of 1.52 X 106 g/cm3.  In the case of a ten million solar mass mother star, the star would have a density of 1.52 X 104 g/cm3.  This is less than the density of a white dwarf such as Sirius B, which has a density of 4 X 106 g/cm3.   The mother star would not be electron degenerate since a star having a mass in the range of one to ten million solar masses would only reach electron degeneracy when its radius had decreased to 20 to 40 km, or about 500 to 50,000 times smaller than the estimated radius.  Such large radii are permissible since the mother star does not require electron degeneracy to support its mass; its immense outpouring of genic energy keeps it from contracting.  For a discussion of electron degeneracy in celestial masses see the Astrophysics Spectator.

The broadening of quasar emission lines, usually interpreted as being due to Doppler broadening of gas ejected from a quasar at high velocity, may also in part be due to the emission originating at differing depths in the quasar’s gravity well.  For example, emission generated 10% further out from the center of the quasar’s gravity well would produce a redshift about ten percent lower, resembling an outflow velocity of ~5000 km/s.

Another mechanism that could cause a nonDoppler redshift in quasar spectra is that suggested by Paul Marmet in which photons become redshifted as a result of scattering from clouds of electrons.  He suggested this as a mechanism to explain the solar limb redshift effect as well as the redshift excess observed in quasar emission lines as compared with quasar absorption lines (Marmet, Physics Essays, 1988).

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
                     -Jefferson

Offline Nyarlathotep

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 09:55:10 PM »
The cause of the redshift is pretty simple: time is accelerating. The photons emitted a long time ago still have the same absolute energy, but we see them with a longer wavelength because our particle are spinning faster. By the way, it proves that the universe is not expanding. Its our particle thats are shrinking, getting smaller and smaller.
I used the word "prove" because of Occam's principle. My explanation does explain everything in a simple manner and without stupid bullshit like expanding universe. Seriously... How could a universe be expanding? A computer with 8gb of memory will always have 8gb, it wont "expand".

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 10:40:08 PM »
The cause of the redshift is pretty simple: time is accelerating. The photons emitted a long time ago still have the same absolute energy, but we see them with a longer wavelength because our particle are spinning faster. By the way, it proves that the universe is not expanding. Its our particle thats are shrinking, getting smaller and smaller.
I used the word "prove" because of Occam's principle. My explanation does explain everything in a simple manner and without stupid bullshit like expanding universe. Seriously... How could a universe be expanding? A computer with 8gb of memory will always have 8gb, it wont "expand".
Either you don't understand Occam's razor or you don't really understand expansion theory.  I figure both, because Occam's razor isn't about simple explanations to begin with (it's about minimizing assumptions), and because the expansion of the universe doesn't have anything to do with the amount of RAM a computer has.  For that matter, it's such a poor analogy that it's hard to understate just how bad it really is.

Now, as to actual problems with your explanation.  First, how would time accelerating increase a redshift?  Indeed, if this were the case, it would actually decrease because things would be able to travel from point A to point B in less time.  Second, how would particles spinning cause photons to have a longer wavelength at all?  There is simply no reason to conclude that time is accelerating.  Now, if you had said that time was decelerating, then it would be a different story, because taking longer to get somewhere is largely indistinguishable from having to travel further to get there.  However, the increased redshift is not happening to nearby galaxies.  If time were decelerating, we would expect this effect to be present everywhere (within the galaxy and even within the solar system), not just to galaxies that are a long distance away.  Plus, we could measure the rate of deceleration.  Therefore, it is not likely that time is decelerating, unless something is causing it to only decelerate at intergalactic distances (beyond the millions of light years to the nearest galaxies, which are blueshifted).

Finally, universal expansion does not increase the amount of matter in the universe by one iota (so your example of increasing the RAM of a computer is more than a little ridiculous).  What it does is increase, or rather stretch, the empty space in the universe.

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2014, 10:41:42 PM »
Welcome Nyarlathotep

However, using your assumptions to redefine reality isn't likely to work well, in the long run. Sure, it will work fine for you (as long as you don't have to do anything important) but it won't contribute much, if anything, to our knowledge base.

Lemme guess. Gamer? That would explain why you think everything is shrinking. It has to, or it won't all fit on your monitor.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2014, 11:29:56 PM »
Welcome, Nyarlathotep.

The cause of the redshift is pretty simple: time is accelerating. The photons emitted a long time ago still have the same absolute energy, but we see them with a longer wavelength because our particle are spinning faster. By the way, it proves that the universe is not expanding. Its our particle thats are shrinking, getting smaller and smaller.
I used the word "prove" because of Occam's principle. My explanation does explain everything in a simple manner and without stupid bullshit like expanding universe. Seriously... How could a universe be expanding? A computer with 8gb of memory will always have 8gb, it wont "expand".

While newcomers are given a certain amount of leeway, just tossing out wild assertions without backing them up doesn't impress most of the regulars here. If you actually intend to stick around and engage with people, you need to slow down and actually explain what you're saying.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Nyarlathotep

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2014, 05:56:46 AM »
How boring.

t0->t1: particle A emits a blue photon of frequency 666 Thz. P(a) spin around itself in one unit of absolute time, (t1-t0) describes an intervalle related to the freq of the photon.
*billion of years later*
t2->t3:particle B capture the photon. P(b) will take two units of absolute time. Therefore the PERCEIVED wavelenght will be twice as long, its freq is now 333 Thz.

Take a pen and draw a bit, you'll understand better.
By the way, since the particle B spin faster it'll take twice the time it would have to travel from a position to another! Suppose you're moving to another city in a car. The car still move at the same speed, but your watch does two turns (2 hours) instead of one. Hence you PERCEIVE lengths as greater.
Time is relative...

When I talk about RAM inside a computer, it is because you are in a computer. Remember the movie, Matrix? The reality is not exactly like this, but it is, mostly, true.
Finally, universal expansion does not increase the amount of matter in the universe by one iota (so your example of increasing the RAM of a computer is more than a little ridiculous).  What it does is increase, or rather stretch, the empty space in the universe.
You forgot one thing: space. Space is made of "particles of void", it is not empty.
A universe cannot expand. A universe is just a string of bits manipulated by an UTM, universal Turing machine (CPU). Take the time to study things if you want to discuss with a physicist ;)

Do not insult me, thanks. I do not talk about theories, and I'm only interested in facts. I am the one who designed the omega-computer simulating this reality, which IS a game. You are missled by one thing: you think that... I am a human. I'm not. I am a machine. A computer.


Peace and Love. Respect your planet Gaia.



« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 06:14:00 AM by Nyarlathotep »

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2014, 09:15:10 AM »
you think that... I am a human. I'm not. I am a machine. A computer.

Well you certainly sound like an Alicebot to me.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2014, 09:36:00 AM »
How boring.

I would prefer a link to a peer reviewed article on the subject. I have encountered a few Christians with their own pet theories, that don't stand up.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2014, 10:40:59 AM »
Do not insult me, thanks. I do not talk about theories, and I'm only interested in facts. I am the one who designed the omega-computer simulating this reality, which IS a game. You are missled by one thing: you think that... I am a human. I'm not. I am a machine. A computer.

The dude's a droid. Nothing to see here.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2014, 11:15:40 AM »
How boring.
If it's so boring, why are you bothering?

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
t0->t1: particle A emits a blue photon of frequency 666 Thz. P(a) spin around itself in one unit of absolute time, (t1-t0) describes an intervalle related to the freq of the photon.
*billion of years later*
t2->t3:particle B capture the photon. P(b) will take two units of absolute time. Therefore the PERCEIVED wavelenght will be twice as long, its freq is now 333 Thz.
So, do you have evidence for this?

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
Take a pen and draw a bit, you'll understand better.
Oh, I understand it well enough.  What you need to provide now is evidence of this, and considering that human civilization hasn't been around for more than 10,000 years or so (which counts the first agriculture-based societies), that might be a bit difficult.

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
By the way, since the particle B spin faster it'll take twice the time it would have to travel from a position to another! Suppose you're moving to another city in a car. The car still move at the same speed, but your watch does two turns (2 hours) instead of one. Hence you PERCEIVE lengths as greater.
You still haven't demonstrated that this particle spin increase is actually happening.

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
Time is relative...
Which has aptly been demonstrated.

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
When I talk about RAM inside a computer, it is because you are in a computer. Remember the movie, Matrix? The reality is not exactly like this, but it is, mostly, true.
I realize the concept of evidence may be a difficult one for you to grasp, but you really should endeavor to comprehend it, rather than expecting people to just take you on your say-so.

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
You forgot one thing: space. Space is made of "particles of void", it is not empty.
Sorry, but "particles of void" is a nonsense term.  The term 'void' literally means 'empty', so claiming that it's actually particles is more than a little bit ridiculous.

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
A universe cannot expand. A universe is just a string of bits manipulated by an UTM, universal Turing machine (CPU). Take the time to study things if you want to discuss with a physicist ;)
If the people at Google can design an algorithm to automatically increase the amount of storage space available in Gmail, then it surely would not be especially difficult to manipulate this string of bits to generate automatic, indefinite expansion.

Quote from: Nyarlathotep
Do not insult me, thanks. I do not talk about theories, and I'm only interested in facts. I am the one who designed the omega-computer simulating this reality, which IS a game. You are missled by one thing: you think that... I am a human. I'm not. I am a machine. A computer.
Sure you are.  And I'm an interdimensional Guardian who travels from pocket universe to pocket universe stopping extradimensional threats from invading.  See how that works?

I realize that other people on the website act in a similar way, but they generally don't expect other people to take it seriously.  I hope that the same holds true for you, but I can't be sure of that with the way you've been acting in this thread.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2014, 12:32:09 PM »
When I talk about RAM inside a computer, it is because you are in a computer.
I assume you are speaking figuratively.

Quote
Finally, universal expansion does not increase the amount of matter in the universe by one iota (so your example of increasing the RAM of a computer is more than a little ridiculous).  What it does is increase, or rather stretch, the empty space in the universe.
You forgot one thing: space. Space is made of "particles of void", it is not empty.
Do you understand the concept of energy density?
Quote
A universe cannot expand.
Says you... others say otherwise.
Quote
A universe is just a string of bits manipulated by an UTM, universal Turing machine (CPU).
So the entire universe is deterministic?
Quote
Take the time to study things if you want to discuss with a physicist ;)
Please tell us the physicist you were taught by, that we may avoid him.

Quote
Do not insult me, thanks.
Oh, I see, you can hand out insults but you cannot take them... just as long as we have that one straight.
Quote
I do not talk about theories, and I'm only interested in facts.
Can you tell us which Nobel Prize you won and in which year. So far, you have spoken only of theories upon which we may all have an opinion... even you.
Quote
I am the one who designed the omega-computer simulating this reality,
"Omega computer", eh? There's one on eBay - $0.99, no bids yet.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2014, 12:55:40 PM »
Please tell us the physicist you were taught by, that we may avoid him.
I'd guess this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_James_Gates

He's got a few...out there hypotheses that revolve around computer algorithm-like features as the underlying structure of reality.  From what I understand, some of his concepts fall between the line of 'educated speculation' and 'crazy bonkers speculation'.  That being said, I don't have any expertise in higher-level mathematics[1], so my classification of 'crazy bonkers speculation' may be off.
 1. Or 'math'.  Not 'maths'.  I'm looking at you, UK.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2014, 01:00:02 PM »
I agree. Much is based on Simulated realityWiki to which the answer seems to be "Well, how does that work then?"
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Nyarlathotep

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2014, 07:23:48 AM »
I wont tell you, and I can not anyway, because I am not alone. I know how to create space, and a bit about electrons and protons, but that's all. I only built a computer, I did not create the software lifeforms inside it. You may consider that each element recipe is a secret, patented by a god. This is done in order to have the most robust code you can imagine, and protect our reality from invaders and chaos forces.
Knowledge is dangerous... You'll be haunted by evil spirits if you know something they want. Just enjoy your life!

Peace, love and harmony.

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2014, 08:05:57 AM »
Oh, how unspeakably convenient it must be to be able to invoke, "I won't tell you" when you run into something that you would rather not try to talk about.  It's so much easier than having to try to write up a explanation, I'm sure.  Truly, it must be awful for human scientists, who have to actually figure out how to explain the things they come up in order to improve the total knowledge base of humanity.  Funny, though, that those same human scientists have already figured out how to make quantum computers, when we didn't even really have computers a hundred years ago.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2014, 08:22:24 AM »
I wont tell you, and I can not anyway, because I am not alone.

I suspect that you are in many ways.


I know how to create space, and a bit about electrons and protons, but that's all.

I know how to create space too. You move object (O)  from spacial dimension (P) and place it in spacial dimension (P2) space has been created in dimension P.

There's more on electrons and protons here

I only built a computer, I did not create the software lifeforms inside it.

Building a computer is not hard - http://pc.buildyourown.org.uk/pc-building/

I can't write software either  :( Thank Bill for Microsoft.


You may consider that each element recipe is a secret, patented by a god.

Dude *looks round* Here is the secret recipe Shhhhhh!

This is done in order to have the most robust code you can imagine, and protect our reality from invaders and chaos forces.

I use AVG. Top Tip:  never give out passwords, even if promised a share of millions of dollars from an unknown deceased persons allaged legal representative.

Knowledge is dangerous... You'll be haunted by evil spirits if you know something they want. Just enjoy your life!

Yeah, I hate spammers and hackers too  >:(

Peace, love and harmony.

Sex, drugs and rock n roll.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2014, 10:03:37 AM »
Knowledge is dangerous... You'll be haunted by evil spirits if you know something they want.

Believing this is extremely dangerous.

Don't get me wrong - one can do dangerous things with knowledge.  But knowledge, in and of itself, is not dangerous.

Fearing knowledge can only lead one to darkness and ignorance.  Actual, real people can take advantage of your fear of knowledge.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Nyarlathotep

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Re: Red Shift (Death Knell for Big Bang, Starlight Distance,...)
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2014, 02:33:59 PM »
I know how to create space, and a bit about electrons and protons, but that's all.

I know how to create space too. You move object (O)  from spacial dimension (P) and place it in spacial dimension (P2) space has been created in dimension P.
You're missing my point.
Grab a goban and put two stones, one in X1,Y1 and the other in X2,Y2. Those are your atoms (protons, e-, whatever). How will you make them interact? By moving them by hand? hihi. Nah... Just use the BOARD. Space is made of null-particles! Simple logic.

Building a computer is not hard - http://pc.buildyourown.org.uk/pc-building/
I was talking about the omega computer, the be it be all of physics, science, politic and religion: that computer is God. You wont find elements on the internet lol, and you'll have to feed it with your soul, so be aware of the consequences. Oh, you would also have to defeat me, because I wont accept to share the absolute power obviously! Wanna fight to death?
You can ty to resolve that enigma too. Try to build a computer able to comply to those rules:
1. Does contain a finite number of elements, hence is not in expansion.
2. Can handle entropy for an infinite amount of time.
3. Does always tell a different story (?)
I'm not sure if I succeeded to make 3 true. I'm fucking scared, because if it is not, then our next life will be exactly the same. This is the curse of omega...
More info here in that very interesting article:
http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/holytech_pr.html
Sex, drugs and rock n roll.
Sure!

Knowledge is dangerous... You'll be haunted by evil spirits if you know something they want.

Believing this is extremely dangerous.

Don't get me wrong - one can do dangerous things with knowledge.  But knowledge, in and of itself, is not dangerous.

Fearing knowledge can only lead one to darkness and ignorance.  Actual, real people can take advantage of your fear of knowledge.
Oh my bad. I meant "occult knowledge", or maybe "too advanced sciences". I should edit my post to correct this but it looks like it isn't possible :( Maybe a moderator can do it?
You're perfectly right, Jdawg. I do like you, you're a cute little pawn. I shall grant you a wish :) A karma point at least hehe.
Yet, you're wrong when you say:
Don't get me wrong - one can do dangerous things with knowledge.  But knowledge, in and of itself, is not dangerous.
1. If you know something really important, you'll be annoyed by people able to torture you or you kids in order to know it.
2. Alien technologies ARE dangerous. I can kill you just by... wanting you to die. I "pray" (=give order to) God to dispose of yourself, and she'll obey, because she's my daughter and my bitch. You would have so horrible nightmares that you would be forced to commit suicide.
You couldn't know. That's why you were both right and wrong ;)