Author Topic: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?  (Read 3090 times)

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2014, 03:01:15 AM »
So how are you going to pay back Jesus for him sacrificing himself in order for him to forgive you for his own self made problems?
Pretty much the same way you pay back you parents loan. You don't have to do exactly the same thing they did to repay your debt do you?

Are you going to answer the question or bat it back to me as if you're just going to mirror whatever I do in a completely unequal scenario?

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My parents aren't warped enough to pay a debt for me which I owe them, and then shut me out of their lives when I offer to actually pay them what I owe them.
So is God. Why do you think that God will shut you out of his life when you will try to pay him back?

Your theology comes across as very confusing. One minute you're telling me I need to accept Jesus' "sarcifice" in order to be forgiven, the next minute you're alluding to the point that if I don't accept this "sacrifice", then I can still be forgiven by taking on my own responsibilities and not rely on Jesus. Which is it?

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So I don't need to accept Jesus' sacrifice in order to be forgiven by god then?

Oh yes you need to. It's one of the condition to be able to access prayer or confession. Like you need to accept your parents sacrifice in order to repay your debt. If not, why would you have a debt?

You've responded to a point you have already responded to. Please go back and read my next response.

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When you're alive, you have the capacity to expect a debt to be paid back. However, for those 3 days they'll be short and it can be considered a sacrifice. When you compare this to god/Jesus being "dead", you expect that person to stay dead in order for the sacrifice to be fulfilled. When you realise that actually, he hasn't been dead because he's god, and will still be posting what he had for dinner on Facebook in 3 days, while still being ruler of North Korea the universe, the idea that it was a sacrifice kinda loses it's sting.... as if you'd been duped.
Ok, let's modify a little our parents/children story. Money is not close enough to what Jesus did.
Let's say that your Father jumped in front of the car then died after suffering for hours on the pavement, just to save you. Let's add that you were on the street right after he told you not to go, but you went anyway. If your father revive 3 days later, does that diminish his sacrifice? Will you stop trying to repay your debt because Hey "he just suffered some mere hours" and died but finally lived again (with the life insurance money nonetheless! haha)?

You can modify the story til the cows come home - it'll never be a fair comparison. My dad isn't all knowing and all powerful so doesn't know that he'll be alive again 3 days later. When he sacrifices his life, he's doing it with the expectation of staying dead. Jesus, knowing full well he'd be back walking around like nothing had happened, knew he wasn't staying dead. And anyway, even for those 3 days he wasn't dead - he was farting around in hell or whatever.

Like I said, you are never going to be able to make a comparison, simply because your god could never make a sacrifice - by definition.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2014, 03:32:25 AM »
Are you going to answer the question or bat it back to me as if you're just going to mirror whatever I do in a completely unequal scenario?

Methinks Lukvance doesn't know his Bible, much like the last French waffler, Jesuis.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2014, 10:32:51 AM »
Let's say that your Father jumped in front of the car then died after suffering for hours on the pavement, just to save you. Let's add that you were on the street right after he told you not to go, but you went anyway. If your father revive 3 days later, does that diminish his sacrifice?
Did he know he was going to be revived 3 days later?  Because if so, then yes, that does diminish his sacrifice relative to a sacrifice done under the assumption that he would not come back.

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Will you stop trying to repay your debt because Hey "he just suffered some mere hours" and died but finally lived again (with the life insurance money nonetheless! haha)?
Depends on the nature of the repaying of the debt I suppose.  If we established the debt repayment based upon the pretense that father made The Ultimate SacrificeTM, then I may very well stop payment due to the agreement being arrived at under false pretenses.  If the repayment of debt were based upon the father making a sacrifice that caused him great pain, well, I could see how being killed and resurrect could potentially be a rather painful process, so I'd be inclined to repay.

If we made no agreement for repayment of debt for the sacrifice, and instead his best friend comes to my house and tells me that 3 days ago my father jumped in front of a car to prevent it from crashing into the bank that I was in, thus saving my life by sacrificing his, though of course he did just come back to life a few hours ago, and now he wants my unquestioning loyalty and devout worship of him...well, let's just say I'd be a bit skeptical of that one personally.  Add to that that best friend's acquaintance tells me that not only does father want this unquestioning loyalty and devotion, but will torture me beyond my wildest nightmares if I fail to do so, and I'm just a tad more skeptical that father was involved in...anything as described by both best friend and best friend acquaintance.  But I digress.

I know the father is owed (seeing as how, apparently, this father does things for his children under the pretense that they will pay him back in some way), what do you think would be the most loving, compassionate response to the child failing to repay the debt:
a) Unquestioned forgiveness of the debt.
b) Eternal torture and suffering to 'make up' for not paying the debt.
c) No torture or suffering, but removing oneself completely from involvement in the offending child's life.
d) Denying the 'free' gifts that you give the other children.  Forever - as in, never, ever, giving this gift to the offending child.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #90 on: April 01, 2014, 04:46:52 PM »
Pretty much the same way you pay back you parents loan. You don't have to do exactly the same thing they did to repay your debt do you?
Are you going to answer the question or bat it back to me as if you're just going to mirror whatever I do in a completely unequal scenario?
Well, I like how the scenario are equal.
You say you give the money back to your parents. I say I give the "money" back to Jesus.
You say you work hard to earn that money. I say I work hard to earn that "money".
Since Jesus suffered for my sins, I will work hard to earn that, to make him proud, to prove to him that his suffering wasn't in vain. I hope you find here answer to the question you asked.

Do you have to do exactly the the same thing your father did to repay your debt?

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Your theology comes across as very confusing. One minute you're telling me I need to accept Jesus' "sarcifice" in order to be forgiven, the next minute you're alluding to the point that if I don't accept this "sacrifice", then I can still be forgiven by taking on my own responsibilities and not rely on Jesus. Which is it?
I'm sorry if this confuse You. Both are correct.
Like your father suffered on the pavement before dying. Jesus suffered under the cross before dying.
Your father already saved you from death (by pushing you out of the way). Jesus already saved you from your sins (by taking the cross for you).
You can ignore the fact that your father saved your life (for example by saying "I didn't need him! I was fine! plenty of time!") and still have your life "saved". You can ignore the fact that Jesus took the cross and still have your sins forgiven.
But, if you want to repay your debt (and I hope you do) to your father's sacrifice (witch is here whether you want it or not) you will have to accept his sacrifice. If you want to repay your debt to Jesus's sacrifice, you'll have to accept his sacrifice.

Why would you have a debt if you don't accept your father's sacrifice?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #91 on: April 01, 2014, 05:02:47 PM »
Did he know he was going to be revived 3 days later?  Because if so, then yes, that does diminish his sacrifice relative to a sacrifice done under the assumption that he would not come back.
Yes he did. But don't we forget, he suffered a lot before dying.

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If the repayment of debt were based upon the father making a sacrifice that caused him great pain, well, I could see how being killed and resurrect could potentially be a rather painful process, so I'd be inclined to repay.
We agree. Plus he suffered a lot before dying.

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I know the father is owed (seeing as how, apparently, this father does things for his children under the pretense that they will pay him back in some way)
No agreement for repayment of debt. I mean, the father did not expect the child to repay him when he jumped in front of the car. Jesus did not expect me to repay my debt when he took all my sins upon him. Does it mean that we should not repay the debt?

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what do you think would be the most loving, compassionate response to the child failing to repay the debt:
a) Unquestioned forgiveness of the debt.
b) Eternal torture and suffering to 'make up' for not paying the debt.
c) No torture or suffering, but removing oneself completely from involvement in the offending child's life.
d) Denying the 'free' gifts that you give the other children.  Forever - as in, never, ever, giving this gift to the offending child.
Definitely a) That is how I believe Jesus/God process.
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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2014, 05:28:34 PM »
People die every day that have suffered more than JC did on the cross. Sure, it was painful for him and all that (supposedly) but sickness (bone cancer for instance) and accident victims (people who get third degree burns over 90% of their body and survive a few days, again, for instance) are pegging the pain charts. But you probably don't give such human deaths a second thought, do you. Jc's impresses you, the rest are par for the course.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #93 on: April 01, 2014, 05:58:26 PM »
Sorry for jumping right in, but I believe his point was that Jesus was ALREADY in Heaven with God the Father and THEN he made the sacrifice and then went back to Heaven with God the Father.

It truly is a HUGE sacrifice to do something like that when you easily could've just said, "Hey I'm already in heaven with God the Father, why go through torturous pain at all?"

Jesus didn't have to come down from heaven, but he willingly chose to do it. Not many people will display that huge amount of selflessness.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #94 on: April 01, 2014, 07:06:11 PM »
People die every day that have suffered more than JC did on the cross. Sure, it was painful for him and all that (supposedly) but sickness (bone cancer for instance) and accident victims (people who get third degree burns over 90% of their body and survive a few days, again, for instance) are pegging the pain charts. But you probably don't give such human deaths a second thought, do you. Jc's impresses you, the rest are par for the course.
I really pray for their suffering to be the lowest possible.
I believe that Jesus suffering wasn't something any human could live. I will never know how great was his suffering.
But when I saw the movie The Passion Of The Christ (2004)" Precisely the slashing scene http://youtu.be/EjJNEsDJPFk?t=1m35s
It changed my perception on how much he suffered before. When you add to that the fact that he is an infinite being in a mortal vessel...to be closer to me, a mere human. My respect rose higher than ever before.
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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #95 on: April 01, 2014, 07:24:56 PM »
People die every day that have suffered more than JC did on the cross. Sure, it was painful for him and all that (supposedly) but sickness (bone cancer for instance) and accident victims (people who get third degree burns over 90% of their body and survive a few days, again, for instance) are pegging the pain charts. But you probably don't give such human deaths a second thought, do you. Jc's impresses you, the rest are par for the course.
I really pray for their suffering to be the lowest possible.
I believe that Jesus suffering wasn't something any human could live. I will never know how great was his suffering.
But when I saw the movie The Passion Of The Christ (2004)" Precisely the slashing scene http://youtu.be/EjJNEsDJPFk?t=1m35s
It changed my perception on how much he suffered before. When you add to that the fact that he is an infinite being in a mortal vessel...to be closer to me, a mere human. My respect rose higher than ever before.

Well, there's your answer! Between special effects and makeup, you could help make everyone religious.

Tens of thousands were crucified over the years. When we humans get good at something, we go all out. Of course we also used to roast people over fires by putting them in big sealed metal containers from which there was no escape, but it is so hard to see what's going on in a hot, dark container, so its a good thing they didn't use that one on JC. You'd be less impressed.

Keep in mind that there were very few ways to die painlessly back then, so they may have been less impressed at the time than you are now. I don't know that, but hey, we atheists should get to make stuff up too!
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline median

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #96 on: April 01, 2014, 07:30:52 PM »
Sorry for jumping right in, but I believe his point was that Jesus was ALREADY in Heaven with God the Father and THEN he made the sacrifice and then went back to Heaven with God the Father.

It truly is a HUGE sacrifice to do something like that when you easily could've just said, "Hey I'm already in heaven with God the Father, why go through torturous pain at all?"

Jesus didn't have to come down from heaven, but he willingly chose to do it. Not many people will display that huge amount of selflessness.

What sacrifice?! According to the story the guy didn't even die! He (allegedly) came back. There's no sacrifice there. He didn't actually lose anything.

Besides that, there's nothing moral about vicarious redemption. You can't "forgive" a robber for something he stole from someone you don't know. There is no third party redemption b/c such people are not involved or effected parties.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 07:32:34 PM by median »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #97 on: April 01, 2014, 07:40:25 PM »
Well, there's your answer! Between special effects and makeup, you could help make everyone religious.

Tens of thousands were crucified over the years. When we humans get good at something, we go all out. Of course we also used to roast people over fires by putting them in big sealed metal containers from which there was no escape, but it is so hard to see what's going on in a hot, dark container, so its a good thing they didn't use that one on JC. You'd be less impressed.

Keep in mind that there were very few ways to die painlessly back then, so they may have been less impressed at the time than you are now. I don't know that, but hey, we atheists should get to make stuff up too!
Yes, but you went a little fast over the fact that Jesus wasn't "just" human. Like your father or your child, he is not like any other kind of human, there is a blood bond between you two that you don't have with other. I'm sure that if you have to chose. You will chose someone you don't know to suffer instead of your own. (of course, in that example they are both guilty of the same thing)
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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2014, 08:10:14 PM »
Well, there's your answer! Between special effects and makeup, you could help make everyone religious.

Tens of thousands were crucified over the years. When we humans get good at something, we go all out. Of course we also used to roast people over fires by putting them in big sealed metal containers from which there was no escape, but it is so hard to see what's going on in a hot, dark container, so its a good thing they didn't use that one on JC. You'd be less impressed.

Keep in mind that there were very few ways to die painlessly back then, so they may have been less impressed at the time than you are now. I don't know that, but hey, we atheists should get to make stuff up too!
Yes, but you went a little fast over the fact that Jesus wasn't "just" human. Like your father or your child, he is not like any other kind of human, there is a blood bond between you two that you don't have with other. I'm sure that if you have to chose. You will chose someone you don't know to suffer instead of your own. (of course, in that example they are both guilty of the same thing)

But I could say something similar. Because you're overlooking the fact that JC wasn't "even" real.

If you want to be impressed that he suffered worse than me at my son's first piano recital, go ahead. I'd call it a tie at best, but I probably have too obvious an affection for Roman soldiers to make an unbiased decision.

But I tell you what. That pain they say he went through sure set things in motion. Whipping those gospels out a mere 40 or 50 or 60 years after he nailed it was impressive. And it shows me how much god loves procrastination. You can go ahead and delay your responses to my post if it will help you feel more pious.


Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2014, 09:30:26 PM »
Your father already saved you from death (by pushing you out of the way). Jesus already saved you from your sins (by taking the cross for you).
You can ignore the fact that your father saved your life (for example by saying "I didn't need him! I was fine! plenty of time!") and still have your life "saved". You can ignore the fact that Jesus took the cross and still have your sins forgiven.
But, if you want to repay your debt (and I hope you do) to your father's sacrifice (witch is here whether you want it or not) you will have to accept his sacrifice. If you want to repay your debt to Jesus's sacrifice, you'll have to accept his sacrifice.

Why would you have a debt if you don't accept your father's sacrifice?

That would be nice, but it's not terribly backed up by the gospels, or anything that the Bible says

http://www.openbible.info/topics/accepting_christ

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #100 on: April 02, 2014, 12:07:03 AM »
People die every day that have suffered more than JC did on the cross. Sure, it was painful for him and all that (supposedly) but sickness (bone cancer for instance) and accident victims (people who get third degree burns over 90% of their body and survive a few days, again, for instance) are pegging the pain charts. But you probably don't give such human deaths a second thought, do you. Jc's impresses you, the rest are par for the course.

Don't forget the other two guys hanging on their crosses. But who cares about them? They were criminals...well, so was Jesus but that's okay because he's allowed to break the law--whst's that saying? "Do as I say not as I do." What a hypocritical copout.

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2014, 02:04:16 AM »
Pretty much the same way you pay back you parents loan. You don't have to do exactly the same thing they did to repay your debt do you?
Are you going to answer the question or bat it back to me as if you're just going to mirror whatever I do in a completely unequal scenario?
Well, I like how the scenario are equal.
You say you give the money back to your parents. I say I give the "money" back to Jesus.
You say you work hard to earn that money. I say I work hard to earn that "money".
Since Jesus suffered for my sins, I will work hard to earn that, to make him proud, to prove to him that his suffering wasn't in vain. I hope you find here answer to the question you asked.

No, it doesn't tell me because they are not equal. Jesus is not a pay-day loan company, rather, he is closer to a protection racket. Your "debt" to Jesus isn't monetary, unless you are of the type who likes to put his hand on the screen and pick up the phone for a FedEx "miracle". So what is it that you are going to specifically do to prove to him that his "suffering" wasn't in vain, because as far as I can see, all you have to do is accept that he did it for you so you don't have to.

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Do you have to do exactlythe the same thing your father did to repay your debt?

Unless he charges me interest, yes. But so fucking what - this is not equal.

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Your theology comes across as very confusing. One minute you're telling me I need to accept Jesus' "sarcifice" in order to be forgiven, the next minute you're alluding to the point that if I don't accept this "sacrifice", then I can still be forgiven by taking on my own responsibilities and not rely on Jesus. Which is it?
I'm sorry if this confuse You. Both are correct.

They can't both be correct. If you can't keep consistent with your own theology, how on earth do you expect anyone else to even begin taking it seriously? All it looks like is someone desperately rummaging around for any old shit and throwing the first thing you come across as an answer. It comes across as random nonsense that is internally inconsistent.
 
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Like your father suffered on the pavement before dying. Jesus suffered under the cross before dying.
Your father already saved you from death (by pushing you out of the way). Jesus already saved you from your sins (by taking the cross for you).
You can ignore the fact that your father saved your life (for example by saying "I didn't need him! I was fine! plenty of time!") and still have your life "saved". You can ignore the fact that Jesus took the cross and still have your sins forgiven.
But, if you want to repay your debt (and I hope you do) to your father's sacrifice (witch is here whether you want it or not) you will have to accept his sacrifice. If you want to repay your debt to Jesus's sacrifice, you'll have to accept his sacrifice.

Why would you have a debt if you don't accept your father's sacrifice?

Did you even bother reading my last response?! To repeat, my dad in this ludicrous, unrealistic hypothetical scenario, isn't expecting to come back to life 3 days later. Jesus, however, is. Infact he knows he is. They are not analogous.... and can never be analogous because god and his Jesus avatar can not make a sacrifice.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2014, 05:25:15 AM »
Sorry for jumping right in, but I believe his point was that Jesus was ALREADY in Heaven with God the Father and THEN he made the sacrifice and then went back to Heaven with God the Father.

It truly is a HUGE sacrifice to do something like that when you easily could've just said, "Hey I'm already in heaven with God the Father, why go through torturous pain at all?"

Jesus didn't have to come down from heaven, but he willingly chose to do it. Not many people will display that huge amount of selflessness.

You are confusing selflessness with immoral stupidity. What kind of retard plays dead so that he can forgive things he made faulty? What kind of dickhead requires a blood "sacrifice" in order to be able to forgive things he made faulty? The Christian god, that's who.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #103 on: April 02, 2014, 07:09:55 AM »
Sorry for jumping right in

Why do you only apologise for jumping in on threads when there is another theist with views contrary to yours in the thread?

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It truly is a HUGE sacrifice to do something like that when you easily could've just said, "Hey I'm already in heaven with God the Father, why go through torturous pain at all?"

Jesus didn't have to come down from heaven, but he willingly chose to do it. Not many people will display that huge amount of selflessness.

I would do it, and I win self centered medals. How many people do you know would turn down the following offer:

Hey, how about go down to Earth for a few years, and become a worshipped God; have billions respect you, and then bail out the whole of humanity from eternal damnation. Just imagine being in heaven, with all those people burning in hell, while you sip cappuccinos. Then, after you've done it, come back to a heaven that you're already familiar with, and a comfy job with your dad.

Only a psychopath would turn down that offer.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #104 on: April 02, 2014, 08:22:31 AM »
Humans rules and {biblical} rules are all of the same.

From the Bill of Rights:
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted

From the Bible:
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Numbers 15:32-36
New King James Version (NKJV)

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.


So, no.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2014, 10:38:18 AM »
Did he know he was going to be revived 3 days later?  Because if so, then yes, that does diminish his sacrifice relative to a sacrifice done under the assumption that he would not come back.
Yes he did. But don't we forget, he suffered a lot before dying.
I didn't forget.  He suffered a lot before dying.  And then came back 3 days later.  He sacrificed less than someone who would have suffered a lot, died, and did not come back 3 days later.

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If the repayment of debt were based upon the father making a sacrifice that caused him great pain, well, I could see how being killed and resurrect could potentially be a rather painful process, so I'd be inclined to repay.
We agree. Plus he suffered a lot before dying.
Yes, he suffered a lot before dying.  My responses to you, clearly, have kept that in mind.

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I know the father is owed (seeing as how, apparently, this father does things for his children under the pretense that they will pay him back in some way)
No agreement for repayment of debt. I mean, the father did not expect the child to repay him when he jumped in front of the car.
Does the father keep reminding the child 'hey, I jumped in front of that car for you'?  Does the father ever say something like 'you'll get a really awesome reward, just pay me back for that one time I jumped in front of a car for you'?  Did the father write a book detailing how awesome he was for jumping in front of that car, pass that book around to a bunch of other people, and tell them to make sure to remind the child that the father jumped in front of the car for him/her?

Sorry, but this 'father' seems to be the kind of person to say that he doesn't expect to be repaid, but acts a whole lot like someone who does want to be repaid.

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Jesus did not expect me to repay my debt when he took all my sins upon him. Does it mean that we should not repay the debt?
Actually, that may very well be the case.  Have you ever done a favor for someone and they just don't shut up about it?  They keep barging into your life to remind you how thankful they are for your favor?

"Yeah, dude, I did you a huge favor.  I like you, after all.  But it's done - shut up and let's all move on with our lives".  Maybe that's why god doesn't do any miracles like 'healings' anymore - you people just wouldn't shut up and be grateful.  You kept bothering the man.  Give him some damn space and peace, will ya?

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what do you think would be the most loving, compassionate response to the child failing to repay the debt:
a) Unquestioned forgiveness of the debt.
b) Eternal torture and suffering to 'make up' for not paying the debt.
c) No torture or suffering, but removing oneself completely from involvement in the offending child's life.
d) Denying the 'free' gifts that you give the other children.  Forever - as in, never, ever, giving this gift to the offending child.
Definitely a) That is how I believe Jesus/God process.
Well okay then.  I do have one recommendation - have a sit down with the bishop of your archdioceses (I recall that you are Catholic) and discuss this view.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2014, 12:44:12 PM »
I really pray for their suffering to be the lowest possible.
I believe that Jesus suffering wasn't something any human could live. I will never know how great was his suffering.
Ask some of these people about it:
http://www.notorture.org/stories.php

See if you can still compare Jesus' torture over the span of a day (and subsequent resurrection after death) to repeated beatings over a 2 month period.  Or how about comparing it to being chained up and being repeatedly raped on a daily basis for a 9 month period?  That kinda sucks, right?

Look, I know you're supposed to glorify god/Jesus at every turn without thinking about it, but come on man...I get the story says that Jesus suffered quite a lot (before being killed and resurrected 3 days later), and sure, kudos for accepting that fate and all.

But to think that what he went through (you know, before being killed and subsequently resurrected from death 3 days later) is the pinnacle of potential suffering a human can go through is cruel and un-empathetic.

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But when I saw the movie The Passion Of The Christ (2004)" Precisely the slashing scene http://youtu.be/EjJNEsDJPFk?t=1m35s
It changed my perception on how much he suffered before. When you add to that the fact that he is an infinite being in a mortal vessel...to be closer to me, a mere human. My respect rose higher than ever before.
I don't get why your respect rose even higher.  If I am impressed that the strong can overcome a situation, I am typically somewhat less impressed when the significantly stronger can overcome a situation.  And when the infinitely strong overcomes a situation, I'm not at all impressed.  That should be par for the course.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2014, 01:00:04 PM »
As a nontrinitarian I would like to say something.  I don't think Jesus knew he would be resurrected.  I think he had faith he would be resurrected.  So the sacrifice was real.

And while I completely agree with the analogy of a forgiven debt perhaps a different anology could drive home the point.

What Jesus did was give us a priceless gift (life in union with God).  Once we receive it we must take care of it or we may destroy the gift.  In other words, don't run up another debt once the first has been forgiven.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2014, 01:34:32 PM »
That would be nice, but it's not terribly backed up by the gospels, or anything that the Bible says
http://www.openbible.info/topics/accepting_christ
It does not!  http://www.openbible.info/topics/forgive_sin (thank you for the link btw :) )
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2014, 04:18:32 PM »
No, it doesn't tell me because they are not equal. Jesus is not a pay-day loan company, rather, he is closer to a protection racket. Your "debt" to Jesus isn't monetary, unless you are of the type who likes to put his hand on the screen and pick up the phone for a FedEx "miracle". So what is it that you are going to specifically do to prove to him that his "suffering" wasn't in vain, because as far as I can see, all you have to do is accept that he did it for you so you don't have to.
Like you will live the rest of your life trying to repay the debt you have to your father who suffered on the pavement to save your life. I will live the rest of my life trying to repay my debt to Jesus who suffered on the cross to save me. One of the things I do is follow his teachings, do things I know he will like me to do for him. Like "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sin" 1 Peter 4:8

Do you have to do exactly the the same thing your father did to repay your debt? In the case of suffering to save your life, do you have also to wait for a car to almost run unto him to repay him?

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They can't both be correct.
Yes, they can.

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To repeat, my dad in this ludicrous, unrealistic hypothetical scenario, isn't expecting to come back to life 3 days later. Jesus, however, is. Infact he knows he is. They are not analogous.... and can never be analogous because god and his Jesus avatar can not make a sacrifice.
Is the fact that your father knows that he would resuscitate 3 days after make his suffering less meaningful?
Let's even say that he won't resuscitate let's say he just get hit by the car and break his leg, puncture his lung, break some ribs but will survive.
Like your father suffered on the pavement before going to the hospital. Jesus suffered under the cross before dying.
Your father already saved you from death (by pushing you out of the way). Jesus already saved you from your sins (by taking the cross for you).
You can ignore the fact that your father saved your life (for example by saying "I didn't need him! I was fine! plenty of time!") and still have your life "saved". You can ignore the fact that Jesus took the cross and still have your sins forgiven.
But, if you want to repay your debt (and I hope you do) to your father's sacrifice (witch is here whether you want it or not) you will have to accept his sacrifice. If you want to repay your debt to Jesus, you'll have to accept his sacrifice.

Why would you have a debt if you don't accept your father's sacrifice?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2014, 04:26:52 PM »
Humans rules and {biblical} rules are all of the same.
From the Bill of Rights:
[...]
From the Bible:
[...]

So, no.
I disagree. They may seem different when compared like that but what we meant by "{biblical} rules" was the contemporary rules. Rules interpreted from the Bible by men. The quote you give from the Bible are not rules meant for you. They where given in a certain context. I think we should read them in the context, don't you? (same goes with the rules from the bill of rights)
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2014, 06:30:35 PM »
Does the father keep reminding the child 'hey, I jumped in front of that car for you'?  Does the father ever say something like 'you'll get a really awesome reward, just pay me back for that one time I jumped in front of a car for you'?  Did the father write a book detailing how awesome he was for jumping in front of that car, pass that book around to a bunch of other people, and tell them to make sure to remind the child that the father jumped in front of the car for him/her?

Sorry, but this 'father' seems to be the kind of person to say that he doesn't expect to be repaid, but acts a whole lot like someone who does want to be repaid.
I agree with you, this father you described looks like someone who want to be repaid. Jesus is not this kind of father. He does not keep reminding you that he suffered for you, I'm the one reminding it to you. He didn't write the Bible, his disciple did. He does not expect you to repay him

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Have you ever done a favor for someone and they just don't shut up about it?  They keep barging into your life to remind you how thankful they are for your favor?

"Yeah, dude, I did you a huge favor.  I like you, after all.  But it's done - shut up and let's all move on with our lives".
I never had that kind of trouble. But I can easily imagine it. I would not say to the guy "stop thanking me" but "find another way to thank me, or better yet, go help others now, like I helped you."
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I do have one recommendation - have a sit down with the bishop of your archdioceses (I recall that you are Catholic) and discuss this view.
Thank you, I did that already with many priests and they all agreed with me. (maybe you should ask the one close to your place) It's one of the thing we have to deal with as Catholics. We are already forgiven. It does not mean we don't have to be thankful, that we must stop trying to repay the debt.

Ask some of these people about it:
http://www.notorture.org/stories.php

See if you can still compare Jesus' torture over the span of a day (and subsequent resurrection after death) to repeated beatings over a 2 month period.  Or how about comparing it to being chained up and being repeatedly raped on a daily basis for a 9 month period?  That kinda sucks, right?
Yes! That's horrible.  :(

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I get the story says that Jesus suffered quite a lot (before being killed and resurrected 3 days later), and sure, kudos for accepting that fate and all.
That's all I asked :)

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But to think that what he went through (you know, before being killed and subsequently resurrected from death 3 days later) is the pinnacle of potential suffering a human can go through is cruel and un-empathetic.

I totally agree with you. The cross is not he pinnacle of potential suffering a human can go through (even at that time). I'm just saying that I am thankful for his sacrifice and I hope that one day you will be too. (even if we don't have to)

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I don't get why your respect rose even higher.  If I am impressed that the strong can overcome a situation, I am typically somewhat less impressed when the significantly stronger can overcome a situation.  And when the infinitely strong overcomes a situation, I'm not at all impressed.  That should be par for the course.
The suffering I imagined wasn't as high than the one pictured.
One of the mystery is that Jesus was fully human AND fully God. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God the Son.
So yes he was infinitely strong but he was also at the same time infinitely weak.
Anyway, why the infinitely strong you picture would ever allow himself in this situation?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #112 on: April 02, 2014, 07:28:56 PM »
The quote you give from the Bible are not rules meant for you.

I agree. They were meant for a fearful superstitious band of bronze age goat herders. Just like the rest of the Bible. Just some people have become more civilized(atheists) and some have not (theists)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #113 on: April 02, 2014, 08:53:52 PM »
People die every day that have suffered more than JC did on the cross. Sure, it was painful for him and all that (supposedly) but sickness (bone cancer for instance) and accident victims (people who get third degree burns over 90% of their body and survive a few days, again, for instance) are pegging the pain charts. But you probably don't give such human deaths a second thought, do you. Jc's impresses you, the rest are par for the course.
I really pray for their suffering to be the lowest possible.
I believe that Jesus suffering wasn't something any human could live. I will never know how great was his suffering.
But when I saw the movie The Passion Of The Christ (2004)" Precisely the slashing scene http://youtu.be/EjJNEsDJPFk?t=1m35s
It changed my perception on how much he suffered before. When you add to that the fact that he is an infinite being in a mortal vessel...to be closer to me, a mere human. My respect rose higher than ever before.

You do know that's all fictional, don't you?

Why was he scourged at all? It's said in the Matt 27 that the Romans could find no sin in the man, so why did they extra-punish him?

The scourging story is put into the NT because Isaiah 53:5 says it happened. Romans crucified with rope, not nails. Yet, Isaiah/Psalm 22 says "pierced", so they had to change that. Isaiah 53 is not talking about Jesus, because the rest of it is wrong.

[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


If you believe the prophecy, it says that Jesus was ugly, and you will find no beauty in him. (Change your avatar, please) It says he was a man of sorrows, that is permanently depressed.

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When you add to that the fact that he is an infinite being in a mortal vessel...

So, he could turn the pain off, because he had yogic mind control. Where in the Passion narrative does it say he suffered any pain at all? You could just as easily spin it that way.

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I will never know how great was his suffering.

Exactly, so don't mention it.



Psalm 22: bogus translation, anyway.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 08:55:25 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2014, 09:09:18 PM »
Isaiah 53:10 provides an unpleasant explanation for why the Romans scourged Jesus. It's of the same ilk as God hardening Pharaoh's heart.

[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

It says that it "pleased" the Lord, to have his son beaten up.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2014, 02:48:48 AM »
No, it doesn't tell me because they are not equal. Jesus is not a pay-day loan company, rather, he is closer to a protection racket. Your "debt" to Jesus isn't monetary, unless you are of the type who likes to put his hand on the screen and pick up the phone for a FedEx "miracle". So what is it that you are going to specifically do to prove to him that his "suffering" wasn't in vain, because as far as I can see, all you have to do is accept that he did it for you so you don't have to.
Like you will live the rest of your life trying to repay the debt you have to your father who suffered on the pavement to save your life. I will live the rest of my life trying to repay my debt to Jesus who suffered on the cross to save me. One of the things I do is follow his teachings, do things I know he will like me to do for him. Like "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sin" 1 Peter 4:8

Do you have to do exactly the the same thing your father did to repay your debt? In the case of suffering to save your life, do you have also to wait for a car to almost run unto him to repay him?

I think we need to keep on track about which hypotheticals we are using in each scenario. Here, I have simply been discussing my parents paying a monetary debt for me, not as below, where you drew up the idea of my dad throwing himself into traffic. So, in the case of paying them back, yes I am doing exactly the same, unless, as I said before, they decide to charge me interest.

As for what I have bolded, why do you need to follow this teaching? I certainly don't need to follow this as I instintively worked it out for myself (minus the bit about sin). How come you need to be told?

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They can't both be correct.
Yes, they can.

If only life was this simple and things could be rebutted so readily without so much as a by your leave. Please, expand on how these mutually exclusive positions can co-exist together.

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To repeat, my dad in this ludicrous, unrealistic hypothetical scenario, isn't expecting to come back to life 3 days later. Jesus, however, is. Infact he knows he is. They are not analogous.... and can never be analogous because god and his Jesus avatar can not make a sacrifice.
Is the fact that your father knows that he would resuscitate 3 days after make his suffering less meaningful?
Let's even say that he won't resuscitate let's say he just get hit by the car and break his leg, puncture his lung, break some ribs but will survive.
Like your father suffered on the pavement before going to the hospital. Jesus suffered under the cross before dying.

I admit that the concept of suffering flew past me in my last response..... not that it makes much of a difference, because the suffering is part of the sacrifice. I don't know how many times I can say that these scenarios are not comparable. Jesus has a monumental advantage over my dad, that being he is all powerful. I know, I've heard this shit before, "Jesus chose to suffer even when he could stop himself suffering". Then he's an idiot. No-one, nowhere, would prolong their own suffering if they could stop it yet continue to help others........ not that I think Jesus is even helping others - he's forcing you to make a do or die decision about your eternal existence, akin to a mafia boss. The "suffering", the "sacrifice" is the, "Awww look at the poor Jesus putting himself up for such torment for me", to rope you in. It's a fucking con, because the reason he is doing it is to be able to forgive. He is warped. He is disturbed. I, and I dare say you, would just forgive and not have to "self harm" in order to persuade ourselves to forgive.
 
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Your father already saved you from death (by pushing you out of the way). Jesus already saved you from your sins (by taking the cross for you).

I have no reason to believe sin exists, a concept made up to try justify why the christian god has psychotic tendencies by projecting his own self made problems onto others and then blaming them for it.
 
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You can ignore the fact that your father saved your life (for example by saying "I didn't need him! I was fine! plenty of time!") and still have your life "saved". You can ignore the fact that Jesus took the cross and still have your sins forgiven.

My dad, in this silly scenario, I wouldn't ignore. Jesus on the other hand, I can and do ignore because he is a monumental nutjob who feels I should be grateful that he can forgive me for a problem he created because he allowed himself to sleep for 3 days.

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But, if you want to repay your debt (and I hope you do) to your father's sacrifice (witch is here whether you want it or not) you will have to accept his sacrifice. If you want to repay your debt to Jesus, you'll have to accept his sacrifice.

Really, you don't need to keep up with the dad analogy because it doesn't work.

Also, you're getting preachy. Please stop it. I don't owe Jesus/god anything because 1) I have no reason to believe god exists, and 2) even if I did believe this god existed his problem with humanity is all of his own making and he should take a long look in the mirror at how he totally fucked up his creation.......time and time again.

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Why would you have a debt if you don't accept your father's sacrifice?

As I've shown, this is irrelevant.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire