Author Topic: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?  (Read 2843 times)

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Offline Lectus

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Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« on: March 18, 2014, 08:37:14 AM »
Why does Bible God gives humans sexual hormones at the age of 12 and then send them to hell for practicing sex before marriage?

Marriage at the age of 12 is certainly a disaster.

Why didn't God think about this? Or is it just a proof that the Bible rules were written by men?
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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 08:39:20 AM »
Why does Bible God gives humans sexual hormones at the age of 12 ...

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 08:46:07 AM »
Ha! Good question. It seems to me that the Tree of Knowledge contained the hormone and the hormone then altered Adam and Eve's DNA and they grew organs capable of delivering those hormones.

As they, at the same time, became aware of themselves and had knowledge like God's, so God must have hormones too[1]. The only conclusion is that the ability to think goes along with the sex drive.

It's all a bit strange: Yahweh tells us to go forth and multiply, but the minute we start, he gets involved. More than that, there is no note of how Adam and Eve performed the wedding ceremony. In fact the Bible is silent upon this. I therefore suggest that as there is no guidance from Yahweh, all marriages are probably invalid until such time as He sees fit to tell us exactly how it should be done.
 1. We know Yahweh has hormones (see his choice of virgin bride) but he doesn't seem to get a chance to do much with them, which probably accounts for why he gets bad-tempered from time to time.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 08:48:03 AM by Graybeard »
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Online Mrjason

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 09:35:22 AM »
<snip>More than that, there is no note of how Adam and Eve performed the wedding ceremony.

Technically adam and eve were also produced out of wedlock

It's odd that Deuteronomy 23:2 says;

Quote
No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord

...as a & e were clearly allowed in the assembly of the lord despite not being produced by an "allowed" union.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 10:44:04 AM »
The quick answer to this is life expectancy. Where many people didn't  make 30, reproduction has to get going early if the results are going to be able to manage with the parents when the parents die. The society of the OT was a very different place from our own and the risks to people's health and their risks of death with hugely greater.

God, if he were to exist, really ought to fix this problem now we live that much longer, but as it is, with proper diet etc. girls are reaching menarche rather earlier than 12 these days making things potentially worse..
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Offline writerchick

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 08:23:51 AM »
HI, I'm new so someone may have, at one time, mentioned this. But since I have to contribute to the discussions, here goes...

Marriage as we know it is actually a man made legal contract. There's nothing divine about it. It was about family alliances and keeping bloodlines for royalty for property and titles. The Catholic church didn't make it a sacrament until 1215. And several centuries later before it had to be performed by a priest.  I told that to a Catholic friend and she denied it, until I told her if you don't believe me look it up. Sure enough, she came back and said, yeah, you're right.

So, it clearly shows that the marriage rules were written by men.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 08:45:06 AM »
HI, I'm new so someone may have, at one time, mentioned this. But since I have to contribute to the discussions, here goes...

Marriage as we know it is actually a man made legal contract. There's nothing divine about it. It was about family alliances and keeping bloodlines for royalty for property and titles. The Catholic church didn't make it a sacrament until 1215. And several centuries later before it had to be performed by a priest.  I told that to a Catholic friend and she denied it, until I told her if you don't believe me look it up. Sure enough, she came back and said, yeah, you're right.

So, it clearly shows that the marriage rules were written by men.

Interesting, so the Catholic church making marriage a sacrament was basically a power grab, flexing it's muscles and saying "this is mine, I own this, you gotta go through us to get some".

I think I might have found your source at theweek.com

Wikipedia doesn't really say much on the history of marriage besides the word didn't really start being used until the 12th and 13th centuries I think.  Although the words "husband" and "wife" might have been used well before the word "marriage".
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Online Add Homonym

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 09:00:36 AM »
Why does Bible God gives humans sexual hormones at the age of 12 and then send them to hell for practicing sex before marriage?

Marriage at the age of 12 is certainly a disaster.

That's why the legal age of marriage was 3.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Online Add Homonym

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 09:03:39 AM »
I think I might have found your source at theweek.com

There's an interesting type of dishonesty in that article.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 10:12:08 AM »
I think I might have found your source at theweek.com

There's an interesting type of dishonesty in that article.

Sorry, but would care to elaborate? I thought the article was fair reasonable.
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Offline writerchick

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2014, 10:25:48 AM »

I think I might have found your source at theweek.com

Wikipedia doesn't really say much on the history of marriage besides the word didn't really start being used until the 12th and 13th centuries I think.  Although the words "husband" and "wife" might have been used well before the word "marriage".

Actually I learned about it in Western Philosophy class in college. Something about St Augustine, I think.  Anyway, it was part of the Fourth Council of the Lateran
Canon #50 and a few after are on marriage: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 10:40:11 AM »

There's an interesting type of dishonesty in that article.

Sorry, but would care to elaborate? I thought the article was fair reasonable.

I'm curious myself what Add Homonym is refering to.    I myself don't like that there aren't more sources provided.  Even if something seems fairly reasonable it is always nice to have a few sources that might be more credible than a simple blog article stating things.


Actually I learned about it in Western Philosophy class in college. Something about St Augustine, I think.  Anyway, it was part of the Fourth Council of the Lateran
Canon #50 and a few after are on marriage: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

Ah, okay neat.  Now there is a good source.  Thanks!

And welcome to the WWGHA forums!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:43:30 AM by SevenPatch »
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Offline writerchick

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 11:15:21 AM »
Thanks for the welcome.

This is an interesting topic, as most all are, regarding Biblical rules. 
It is also no taking care of the normal, natural hormonal issues yourself either else you'll go to hell.  :?

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 01:36:21 PM »
It is also no taking care of the normal, natural hormonal issues yourself either else you'll go to hell.  :?

Well at least Yahweh wants you clean before you go to hell...

Quote
Lev 15:16 And if any man's seed go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 04:10:04 PM »
Rick! Rick! Check this out right.  We plant the seed.  Nature grows the seed.  Then we eat the seed.  We plant the seed.  Nature grows the seed.  Then we eat the seed.

Neil, shut up.  Shut up. Shut up Neil.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 04:48:45 PM »
I feel like Captain America. I don't get the reference. And I am wearing a blue spandex supersuit.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 04:54:16 PM »
I guess WriterChick answered the question perfectly. Is there a way to close the thread? Mark it as "answered"?

BTW Lectus, are killers answering to hormones? Should we not have make rules about killing?
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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 04:57:00 PM »
Why give humans free will and threaten them with Hell? Leverage. Blackmail. Fun. Pleasure. Basically things a sadistic god would do.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 05:21:32 PM »
I guess WriterChick answered the question perfectly. Is there a way to close the thread? Mark it as "answered"?

You may think so but it seems to me that it missed the mark. Saying, effectively that we should control our own urges is all very well and very laudable but it sure isn't going to work for everyone all the time. A creator who knows how to do the creating but and who wanted good people ought to have realised that in the design stage and worked it out how to get procreation without so much chance of humans sinning all the time. The fact is that we are like we are which leaves us with the choices of -

1. God as creator did a shoddy job, though our own body designs show us that

OR

2. Since there is not creator, what we have is what we are left with via evolution which is not perfect but it mostly works. Evolution is an impersonal process, of course, so doesn't haul us over the coals for what we do with our bodies so sin and hell have no meaning. of course humans collectively have morals which we ought to accept, probably, but that isn't like dropping into hell if we get we those wrong.

So, which is it, Lukvance?

Quote
BTW Lectus, are killers answering to hormones? Should we not have make rules about killing?

That's an interesting discussion there. I suspect that the sex drive is far mightier than the urge to kill people and that there is no specific hormonal system in that regard so the answer is no.   Of course we do have rules about killing but they treat those who are not insane as responsible for their own actions. 

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2014, 06:44:09 AM »
I feel like Captain America. I don't get the reference. And I am wearing a blue spandex supersuit.

I guess you mean my rambling irrelavent reference to a conversation between Neil and Rick?

It's from a 80's British sitcom created by Rik Mayall called The Young Ones.  It was mostly slapstick humor about 4 "loser" college students who get into crazy unbelievable situations.  In one of the episodes, an A-bomb crashes into their kitchen.  One of the characters tries to set the bomb off (Vivian, a punk anarchist who likes to destroy things) the whole episode while 2 others try to (unsuccessfully) blackmail England (Rick, the pathetically awkward wannabe-Marxist and Mike, the calm collected cool guy) and the 4th character tries to build a bomb shelter out of the kitchen table right next to the A-bomb (Neil, the mellow yet suicidal hippie).

My reference didn't really have anything to do with the conversation, I just thought of that scene because the word seed was used in the Bible verse that was quoted.  Though, perhaps, since the characters on the show might have been atheists (the topic of if they believed in a god never came up but the show often made fun of religion and god), I suppose I might have been poking fun at the absurd idea that atheists eat babies.

In any case, sorry for the obscure and unrelated reference.
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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2014, 12:01:22 PM »
I feel like Captain America. I don't get the reference. And I am wearing a blue spandex supersuit.

Sexy.

;)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2014, 01:47:40 PM »
The Young Ones sounds like the Goodies. I liked the Goodies, especially the episode where Tim the prissy patriot, Graeme the mad scientist and Bill the hippie were trapped in their apartment and were contemplating cannibalism within hours. ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2014, 03:57:33 PM »
The Young Ones sounds like the Goodies. I liked the Goodies, especially the episode where Tim the prissy patriot, Graeme the mad scientist and Bill the hippie were trapped in their apartment and were contemplating cannibalism within hours. ;D

I think you are correct!  :)  I never heard of The Goodies before, but looking at the wiki page, both shows appear to be very similar.  The Young Ones aired just after the Goodies was canceled so The Young Ones was probably playing to the same audience.

Interestingly, the background for each of the shows comedians are very different.  The comedians who made The Goodies all met at Cambridge and worked together on various radio and TV shows during the 1960's.  Four of the five characters in The Young Ones were played by actual stand up comedians who worked together at comedy clubs during the late 1970's. 

I wouldn't be surprised if The Goodies provided inspiration for Rik Mayall and the other comedians in the Young Ones.

Have you ever seen the movie Drop Dead Fred?  The guy who played the imaginary friend Fred is Rik Mayall.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 01:08:45 AM »
Why does Bible God gives humans sexual hormones at the age of 12 and then send them to hell for practicing sex before marriage?

Marriage at the age of 12 is certainly a disaster.

Why didn't God think about this? Or is it just a proof that the Bible rules were written by men?

I would like to show how wrong you are by doing this:

Why do parents bake cookies and then make rules for their children about not to eat cookies before dinner?

Eating cookies before dinner is certainly a disaster.

Why didn't men think about this? Or is it just proof that man's rules were written by monkeys?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2014, 02:36:24 PM »

A creator who knows how to do the creating but and who wanted good people ought to have realised that in the design stage and worked it out how to get procreation without so much chance of humans sinning all the time. The fact is that we are like we are which leaves us with the choices of -

1. God as creator did a shoddy job, though our own body designs show us that

OR

2. Since there is not creator, what we have is what we are left with via evolution which is not perfect but it mostly works. Evolution is an impersonal process, of course, so doesn't haul us over the coals for what we do with our bodies so sin and hell have no meaning. of course humans collectively have morals which we ought to accept, probably, but that isn't like dropping into hell if we get we those wrong.

So, which is it, Lukvance? 
I would like to give you a third option.
3. God in his perfection wanted us to be free. Free to listen to our body urges or to restrain ourselves.
Would you prefer to not be free?

are killers answering to hormones? Should we not have make rules about killing?
That's an interesting discussion there. I suspect that the sex drive is far mightier than the urge to kill people and that there is no specific hormonal system in that regard so the answer is no.   Of course we do have rules about killing but they treat those who are not insane as responsible for their own actions.
I beg to differ. But if you prefer, you could think of another hormonal induced conduct that the law prohibits. Should we not have make these rules?
If we agree on the making of the rules was a good thing, then making rules about sexual life should be a good thing too.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2014, 03:42:30 PM »
But rules should have a point. Are the harsh punishments for doing it in the wrong way reasonable? What is the point of rules that treat periods like a magical bad spell? Or that say touching your own body is evil? Or that say two women or two men getting it on is bad and should be treated like a crime?

And where are the {biblical} rules that say adults should not molest children or do it with people who do not consent? Where are the rules that say soldiers do not have the right to assault the women on the losing side after they win a war? Where are the prohibitions against multiple wives or women on the side?

We have numerous examples in the bible where stuff that most societies today consider wrong is allowed, encouraged and even rewarded; Abraham, Sarah and Hagar, for example.  No rule that says "don't make a baby with your slave when your wife can't have kids...."

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 04:22:33 PM »
Why does Bible God gives humans sexual hormones at the age of 12 and then send them to hell for practicing sex before marriage?

Marriage at the age of 12 is certainly a disaster.

Why didn't God think about this? Or is it just a proof that the Bible rules were written by men?

I would like to show how wrong you are by doing this:

Why do parents bake cookies and then make rules for their children about not to eat cookies before dinner?

Eating cookies before dinner is certainly a disaster.

Why didn't men think about this? Or is it just proof that man's rules were written by monkeys?

Unfortunately, parents should know if their children will listen to them or not about not eating the cookies, if the children don't listen, then the parents can put the cookies out of reach of the children.  Additionally, there is direct communication between the parents and children.

"God" and humans on the other hand is more like children living in a house all by themselves, never seeing their parents.  All the children got are a bunch of post-it notes on the fridge that may or may not say "don't eat cookies before dinner".  To the children, the post-it notes were probably written by children who lived thousands of years ago.  The cookies however are scattered all over the house and taste really good.  Apparently, if the children do eat the cookies, the parents will punish the child after he or she grew up, became an adult, lived many years and then died. 

So some questions remain.

Why do the parents avoid clearly and coherently communicating with the children?

Why did the parents leave cookies all over the house?

Why would the parents punish the child only after the child grows up and dies for eating the cookies?

Why doesn't the parent just create the cookies after dinner instead of toying with the "souls" of the children?
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Offline Lukvance

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Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 04:42:42 PM »
But rules should have a point. Are the harsh punishments for doing it in the wrong way reasonable?
Yes
Quote
What is the point of rules that treat periods like a magical bad spell?
I don't know what you are talking about.
Quote
Or that say touching your own body is evil? Or that say two women or two men getting it on is bad and should be treated like a crime?
"rules were written by men" The rules you seem to refer to are not contemporary.
Quote
And where are the {biblical} rules that say adults should not molest children or do it with people who do not consent? Where are the rules that say soldiers do not have the right to assault the women on the losing side after they win a war? Where are the prohibitions against multiple wives or women on the side?
Are those real questions!? I mean are you really aware of the law? Humans rules and {biblical} rules are all of the same. That's what WriterChick wanted to share with us.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why give hormones and then create rules about sexual life?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 04:48:30 PM »
So some questions remain.
1. Why do the parents avoid clearly and coherently communicating with the children?
2. Why did the parents leave cookies all over the house?
3. Why would the parents punish the child only after the child grows up and dies for eating the cookies?
4. Why doesn't the parent just create the cookies after dinner instead of toying with the "souls" of the children?

1. They do communicate, with those who listen. They don't force communication thou :(
2. Because cookies are great! If consumed properly.
3. Usually the child is not punished after death but right after eating the cookie.
4. Cookies are not created, they are bought :) you made a misstep there hehe. They bought it with everything else (dinner included).
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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