Author Topic: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...  (Read 616 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« on: March 17, 2014, 12:56:43 AM »
Something I just noticed, because my eyes usually glaze over during A&E debates, is that Adam and Eve actually met God, were created by God, and were told not to eat the fruit, and yet still had the "free will" to eat it, despite being told personally by God, that it would kill them. This tends to indicate that, Biblically, we will ALWAYS have free will, and it can never be taken away from us, unless God puts us in a strait jacket and puts electrodes into our heads. This is the same with "Lucifer", who knew of God; had a perfect intellect, and still had the free will to rebel, in the fictitious midrashic story.

We are also told that God would not like to be loved by people who had no free will, yet God thought it was perfectly OK to be loved by A&E, who not only were pointless idiots, but had perfect proof of His existence, and were arguably his pets.

Contrast this with the Christian position that: we aren't given any convincing evidence of God, because it would take away our free will. The instant corollary of this, is that the Bible is not convincing, because it would take away our free will. (Or another unlikely explanation, is that the Bible is already so convincing, that if we had a single drop more evidence, we would then be in a strait jacket, with electrodes in our heads.)(I don't see this.)

It's possible that A&E had a lot more free will than we do, but I don't see it. I think that I would still eat the fruit, if someone like Lucifer was hanging around.

What of the countless amazing prophecies in Daniel, Isaiah, and throughout the whole Bible? I still have my free will. Consider that if God actually made an almanac of convincing prophecies, involving supernovas, earthquakes and tsunamis, it would end up being convincing. This means that whatever is currently in the Bible is less convincing, and tacit proof that no Christian finds the Bible convincing, because if they did find it convincing, they would have to admit that they already have no free will, and thus would be no use to God, who only wants people who came to him of their own free will, which is wrong, because look at A&E.

Does that about cover it?
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 12:21:01 PM »
Very good point Add Homonym.

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit then why did they disobey "God"?  Was disobeying "God" not evil?  If it wasn't evil then why were Adam and Eve punished for not doing anything wrong?

Maybe Adam and Eve already knew about good and evil and simply ate regular not out of the ordinary fruit from a regular average tree which "God" lied about being the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  So in addition to the lie about dying, did "God" lie twice?

What is truly amazing, is that any religion starting with the book of Genesis has managed to survive the past few thousand years.  How does a person read the Genesis book in the Bible and not think it is complete absurdity.  I mean put aside all the things we know today through science, just the errors in logical thinking are absurd. 

I guess the low literacy rate the past few thousand years helped.
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Offline wright

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 01:12:03 PM »
^^^I think it's more that people prefer simple answers, particularly ones that play to their fears and other biases. Most religions teach that humanity is the special snowflake of creation, not a localized and temporary winner in the "Exploit That Niche Like There's No Tomorrow" sweepstakes.

I think religion's continued success is in part an acknowledgement of what people have observed since we began asking questions: the universe as a whole does not care about you. That's a pretty scary, bleak truth for a lot of folks to swallow; they prefer stories where humans have a special purpose from the creator of all things.

As to the OP, yeah. Genesis shows Biblegod as a petty, vindictive character. A dysfunctional human parent writ large.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 01:35:07 PM »
Why didn't god give us good information instead of free will. That would have been much more useful.

And what about the dying part would have made sense to them. What did the ply two people in a perfect world, the only two who had ever existed, know about death? They had seens/experienced zero death, and yet it was meted out as the ultimate punishment. It would be like me telling you that if you watch the next James Bond movie, your franglellium will endetrapulate. There is no information in that phrase. Because the words mean nothing. The word "die" could have no meaning in the minds of unenlightened ones who had never seen, experienced or even imagined such a thing. How would god even know what death was?

Unless he'd tried this before, since there were already angels, from who knows where. Maybe we here on earth have it better because he did a worse job the first time and he learned some stuff.

But he sure didn't learn much about effectively communicating his assumptions and expectations.

But if the big guy didn't provide charts and diagrams and powerpoint presentations about free will and death and possible repercussions, he did it wrong.

Don't these things qualify as plot holes, which would be completely consistent with bad fiction? I'm thinking yes.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 02:27:55 PM »
Well I'd have to agree that the bible is pretty poor evidence of the existence of god. It contains only what people at the time it was written already knew. God revealed nothing to them at all. That's so different to the state A and E were in - personal god chatting away to them and no worship required - that their state is quite irrelevant to us today.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Boots

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 02:52:09 PM »
You know what inanity really steams my cheese about the A&E story?  The fact that gawd put a guardian angle on the Tree of Life--AFTER they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.  How much trouble could have been avoided had the all-knowing creator put the guard on THE CORRECT TREE, at the CORRECT TIME?!?!
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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 03:15:53 PM »
One of the things I've noticed about the Christian doctrine of "free will" is that it's exactly backwards: we're supposed to have "free will" with regard to the question of whether or not Yahweh exists, but not with regard to the question of whether we're to worship him or not.  The question of Yahweh's existence is precisely the area where we don't have a choice: either he exists, or he doesn't.  Yet this is where we're supposed to exercise our "free will." 

Should we choose to believe in his existence, worship, becoming (the right sort of) Christian, etc. are supposed to follow automatically.  That's what all the dialing-of-everything-up-to-infinity is meant to accomplish.  Yahweh is infinitely powerful, the punishment for rejecting him infinitely horrible, the reward for obedience infinitely[1] awesome. 

In short, the Christian doctrine of "free will" sets out to make optional the things that aren't (what is real, or not?), and eliminate choice where it should exist (should we adopt this ideology/worship this god/obey this leader/accept this moral code?).  The result is to treat reality like a made-up story ("I don't wanna believe in fossils/peak oil and climate change/the failure of Supply Side economics!  It's all a liberal conspiracy!") and made-up stories as real ("Genesis says Adam and Eve rode around on cuddly vegetarian Tyrannosaurs 6,000 years ago!  I believe it!  That settles it!  So we need to teach it in school as science!").
 1. This bit is less clear in the Bible.  Jesus makes mention of "storing up treasures in Heaven," which presumably provide a better Heavenly experience than one would have without them.  OTOH, I imagine a clever investor could probably make up for a less than sterling start, given Eternity and an economy of some sort.  Unless maybe the "treasures" are like girl/boy scout badges, i.e. symbols of status, and all trade is forbidden.
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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 03:20:17 PM »
You know what inanity really steams my cheese about the A&E story?  The fact that gawd put a guardian angle on the Tree of Life--AFTER they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.  How much trouble could have been avoided had the all-knowing creator put the guard on THE CORRECT TREE, at the CORRECT TIME?!?!

Or alternatively: if only Adam and Eve had not so foolishly wasted time making garments out of fig leaves (Ever tried to sew anything through a leaf?  How long would making fig-leaf clothes take?), and ran to the Immortality Tree instead to complete their rise to Divinity?  Yahweh's response shows that this was a genuine threat that he couldn't undo with a snap of his fingers, any more than he could undo the results of the Fruit of Knowledge.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 03:25:46 PM »
You know what inanity really steams my cheese about the A&E story?  The fact that gawd put a guardian angle on the Tree of Life--AFTER they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.  How much trouble could have been avoided had the all-knowing creator put the guard on THE CORRECT TREE, at the CORRECT TIME?!?!

God could not do otherwise than what he did. Because god knew that A and E would eat from the tree, so he had to send in the serpent to set up this test, to show that they had free will to disobey, even though by disobeying they showed that they were flawed, although they were made perfect and had real physical knowledge of god's heavenly awesomeness.

But they would have somehow managed to outsmart the angel guards and gotten to the tree anyway because it was part of god's perfect plan for A and E to screw up, since Jesus was already waiting in the wings to swoop down and save all of humanity, well the 1/3 that would believe in him or rather the handful of that 1/3 that would get all the various god rules, regs and requirements correct.

And maybe the Jews, and unborn fetuses and newborns that die and people in remote regions who never heard of the one true god, and who went on with their lives worshipping demons who were also part of god's test to see who would use their free will to do the wrong thing even though they did not know that what they were doing was wrong. Unless they are gay.

Including of course the members of my own denomination who had the foresight to be born in the right country at the right time in history to the right parents who chose the correct church with the right leaders preaching from the right version of the bible and doing the interpretation of the text as originally intended by Jesus, god, the apostles, the disciples, the prophets, the medieval monks who translated the manuscripts and the politicians at the meetings who decided which parts of the bible should be included in the one version that was brought over to the country I was born in by the group of European colonizers who had the weapons and ruthlessness to conquer the people who already lived there and enslave them and force them to accept the one true loving and peaceful god. Or die.

That's why.

Easy peasy, right? Can't understand why you atheists insist on making everything so complicated.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 06:29:21 PM »
Except the stories in the bible that would actually exhibit our free will, all demonstrate the opposite:

For example, the Jesus character says that one of his followers will deny him three times, and the follower says no, he would never do that. Now, if one wanted to demonstrate free will, the story would end with Jesus being wrong, and the follower not denying him, but that's not what happens. In every story concerning the god predicting the future and making a prophesy, the prophesy comes true regardless of anyone's supposed free will. It comes true regardless of the stated free will intentions of those most invested in breaking the prophesy. It even works on the Satan character who is prophesied to do a bunch of stuff leading to armageddon. If the Satan character knows the prophesy, then all he has to do to break the prophesy and ruin the god's plans is sit on his hands. No antichrist, no armageddon. But Christians have to believe that the Satan character will do exactly what the prophesy says, because to do otherwise would suggest that the god can be wrong, and thus not omniscient.

Basically, the accuracy of prophesy contradicts the claims of free will.
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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 08:55:33 PM »
  Yahweh's response shows that this was a genuine threat that he couldn't undo with a snap of his fingers, any more than he could undo the results of the Fruit of Knowledge.

Proof that God can make a rock so large that he can't lift it. Staring us in the face all the time.
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 04:37:09 AM »
Just a quick question (being largely bible illiterate); where does it say that A&E had free will to start with?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 04:38:31 AM »
Except the stories in the bible that would actually exhibit our free will, all demonstrate the opposite:

For example, the Jesus character says that one of his followers will deny him three times, and the follower says no, he would never do that. Now, if one wanted to demonstrate free will, the story would end with Jesus being wrong, and the follower not denying him, but that's not what happens. In every story concerning the god predicting the future and making a prophesy, the prophesy comes true regardless of anyone's supposed free will. It comes true regardless of the stated free will intentions of those most invested in breaking the prophesy. It even works on the Satan character who is prophesied to do a bunch of stuff leading to armageddon. If the Satan character knows the prophesy, then all he has to do to break the prophesy and ruin the god's plans is sit on his hands. No antichrist, no armageddon. But Christians have to believe that the Satan character will do exactly what the prophesy says, because to do otherwise would suggest that the god can be wrong, and thus not omniscient.

Basically, the accuracy of prophesy contradicts the claims of free will.

I'm not so sure that argument really works. Look at how the stories are constructed. I call them stories because that is what they are - myths woven into stories. let's have a look at the Jesus and Peter episode you mention.

The author is at pains to point out who he thinks Jesus is - god himself - and when god makes predictions it is not because he's good at guessing but because he 'knows' what will happen. God is said to be omniscient and the author here is being quite clear that this applies to Jesus. Of course, there is another god character that is often ignored in the stories - the author. the author constructs the story, animates the characters for his own purpose. Here he portrays Jesus as god and then shows, decisively , that the prediction was right, confirming Jesus as having foreknowledge.

Of course, Peter, as a real character in the story could have free will and could be allowed to do anything he wanted, but of course he is the creation of the author and the story unfolds as it does because that's how the author wants it. Any other result would leave the story rather pointless.

As a final note, we ought to remember that the characters in the bible are, in the main, characters in a story not necessarily real historical figures. Even the most recent parts of the bible, the NT, have no identifiable characters from non-biblical sources (apart from the odd Roman figure) so the whole of the NT is the result of an author's mind - authors who are making a point by the characters doing a particular thing at a particular time. I don't see that, based on these stories we can argue for free will or the lack of it.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 07:47:06 AM »
Just a quick question (being largely bible illiterate); where does it say that A&E had free will to start with?

I noticed that SevenPatch conflated knowledge of good and evil with free will, but Christians would be off to a poor start, with their free will theories, if A&E did not have free will, because that would be an admission that God manipulated persons that had no free will, to eat a a fruit, and then blamed them for it. If they had no free will, then it would mean that Satan is the controller. If Satan is a controller, then humans can't be blamed consistently for ignoring Jesus. They like to say "It was your choice to burn in hell." However, the story does not present a description of the serpent putting brain probes into A&E. The serpent merely uses a sales pitch, to influence their reason.

Otherwise, as I think I stated, somewhere else, the Bible doesn't use the concept of free will, because it's irrelevant. The writers of the NT know it's irrelevant; that's why they invented Satan.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 08:01:57 AM »
Bookety mark
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2014, 08:04:37 AM »
The author is at pains to point out who he thinks Jesus is - god himself - and when god makes predictions it is not because he's good at guessing but because he 'knows' what will happen.

This is a different topic. I know people can debate ad nauseuntium that you can have free will, and still be predictable, but others say that if you can be predicted, then you don't have free will. I would typically say that if you can be predicted, then something is deterministic.

However, this thread is about how Christians re-purpose the idea of free will. It may be consistent from the A&E story, but they re-purpose it, to be an shoddy explanation of why God doesn't show himself.

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2014, 08:16:03 AM »
What about free will of the Pharaoh character in Exodus?  How many plagues/deaths could have been avoided if Yahweh hadn't "hardened the heart" of Pharaoh?

Pure silliness.
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Offline chibisan

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2014, 08:52:16 AM »
Is there free will in heaven?  If there is, then why is there no evil in heaven?  If there is free will and no evil in heaven, then why didn't god just create the earth that way?  Or if there is no free will and god requires free will to love his creation, then does he still love his creation in heaven?  I think the trickster gods of the Greeks were a much better explanation.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2014, 09:01:39 AM »
Is there free will in heaven?  If there is, then why is there no evil in heaven?  If there is free will and no evil in heaven, then why didn't god just create the earth that way?  Or if there is no free will and god requires free will to love his creation, then does he still love his creation in heaven?  I think the trickster gods of the Greeks were a much better explanation.

Welcome to the forum. chibisan.

So far as we can tell, heaven isn't so much a big unending party but rather the eternal glorification of god - and endless time of praising god and worshipping him. That doesn't leave much time for anyone to get up to anything naughty, deos it?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2014, 12:05:16 PM »
Just a quick question (being largely bible illiterate); where does it say that A&E had free will to start with?

The same place where the US Constitution says we have a "right to privacy."  :-)  I believe it doesn't state it outright, but has been interpreted as such.  (I welcome corrections)
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2014, 03:37:27 PM »
Well I'd have to agree that the bible is pretty poor evidence of the existence of god. It contains only what people at the time it was written already knew. God revealed nothing to them at all. That's so different to the state A and E were in - personal god chatting away to them and no worship required - that their state is quite irrelevant to us today.

The Hebrew slaves that witnessed the plagues of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, water from the rock still in a few days made an idol to worship.

I had a funny post on FB the other day of an arc full of holes.  The caption read I think we should not have brought the woodpecker.  :laugh:

The OP I can not agree more.  Thanks Add Homonym.

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Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline dloubet

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2014, 04:48:00 PM »
Wheels5894 wrote:
Quote
Any other result would leave the story rather pointless.

Granted, but it also clearly shows that no matter what a character decrees as his own stated intention, it is utterly irrelevant. How does the story support the idea of free will when one's stated -- free will -- intention to thwart a prophesy is rendered moot in the face of the prophesy.

In other words, the story says that if the god tells you what you are going to do, that's what you're going to do regardless of any free will efforts to do otherwise. If free will cannot be used to thwart a stated prophesy, then you're nothing but a puppet. The god could whisper to you a running commentary of what you're going to do next, and no matter how much you wanted to do otherwise, and prove the god wrong, you couldn't. The strings would be obvious. This is an inevitable consequence of the story.

Granted the story is not interpreted that way, but that's only because the readers don't think of the consequences of what they're reading. The authors didn't intend that interpretation either, but tough, that's the consequences of the events in the story. They probably weren't even thinking of the issue of free will when they wrote that, and in so doing, wrote a story that suggested there isn't any free will.

Oops.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2014, 04:52:40 PM »
Wheels5894 wrote:
Quote
So far as we can tell, heaven isn't so much a big unending party but rather the eternal glorification of god - and endless time of praising god and worshipping him. That doesn't leave much time for anyone to get up to anything naughty, deos it?

The question is then: What if one of the inhabitants of heaven used their free will to decide to stop praising and worshipping the god?

Denis Loubet

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2014, 05:29:55 PM »
Wheels5894 wrote:
Quote
So far as we can tell, heaven isn't so much a big unending party but rather the eternal glorification of god - and endless time of praising god and worshipping him. That doesn't leave much time for anyone to get up to anything naughty, deos it?

The question is then: What if one of the inhabitants of heaven used their free will to decide to stop praising and worshipping the god?

What, you mean like Lucifer? Who knows?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2014, 05:49:51 PM »
I agree with the premise here that any prophecy that comes true seems to negate free will.

Some of you may recall the big fracas that ensued when I asked a learned Catholic lady visitor if Mary could have refused to be impregnated with Jesus. She said I was being pornographic, and calling Mary a slut, when I was actually calling Jehovah a rapist. Because what else was it if Mary had no right of refusal, and god knew she was going to have to submit, because otherwise his plan should be messed up? Where is the free will in that?

Since Mary was a virgin, she had no chance to be a slut with anyone; she was a teen victim of godly rape. Did god have a backup virgin[1] in mind if Mary had said no? Or does god just show up and assume that Mary will say yes, because, why? Because he is so cool and groovy what with the robes and wings and all? Because he is the creator of the universe-- and therefore the scariest effing being she has ever seen? Talk about power imbalance. Talk about droit de seigneur.

As far as we know, she gave birth to Jesus and god went on his merry (heh) way. Few rounds of golf with Lucifer, few tsunamis to orchestrate. Not even a child support check from heaven. Did Joseph use his free willy to agree to this plan? Did god even pay Joseph the 50 sheckels or whatever?  Is god like, a male slag, Bill Clinton plus Mick Jagger plus Kobe Bryant plus Warren Beatty?

The Catholic person opined that Mary had been super specially selected before she was even born to be god's holy sperm recipient. Like that makes it better? God was a pre-pedophile? She did not even get a chance to say, okay, I'm an unborn fetus here, let me think about it first. So no free will.  :P :(
 1.  I'm trademarking that for a band name
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2014, 06:29:30 PM »
Is there free will in heaven?  If there is, then why is there no evil in heaven?  If there is free will and no evil in heaven, then why didn't god just create the earth that way?  Or if there is no free will and god requires free will to love his creation, then does he still love his creation in heaven?  I think the trickster gods of the Greeks were a much better explanation.

The free will in heaven thing is always a funny one. Ask some Christians about it and they'll tell you that there is no sin in heaven and that this is upheld by them choosing not to sin. BUZZ! Wrong!
If heaven is an eternal existence and it is possible for you to sin, then you will sin...... an infinite amount of times.

If it's not possible to sin then there is either no free will in heaven or you are not "you" in heaven. No, you'd just be another Jesus clone among an assembly line of other Jesus clones. God strips you of your individuality the moment you fall off this mortal coil and turns you into an unsinnable zombie against your will. Resistance is futile. You have been assimilated.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline johnrain

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2014, 12:53:21 AM »
I find it hard to believe that the first two humans would screw everything up for the rest of us. And they actually interacted with God. Why would they disobey him and allow themselves to be tricked by the serpent?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2014, 01:44:35 AM »
They probably weren't even thinking of the issue of free will when they wrote that, and in so doing, wrote a story that suggested there isn't any free will.

Oops.

I would suggest a modification of that.

The story of A&E shows how God allowed humans to embark on a quest to avoid the laws of nature. God then supplied a set of laws, which supposedly would bring humans back on track, except that humans could not competently follow the laws, given the difficulties of this new mal-adapted human existence, which the Bible says was deliberately created by God, by imposing "thorns and thistles" upon us. This could be reinterpreted that humans left their native low population state, and the forest destruction and agriculture caused invasive weeds. This is consistent with the Hebrew idea that God's laws are to stop natural pestilence, and increase human lifespan.

Where this idea goes seriously off the rails, is that Christianity is all about the individual, rather than the state of Israel. Failing to get Israel to behave properly, Paulism gave up on the hope that humans could ever pull together and create paradise by observing laws. God would have to reward individuals who worked against the crowd, and he would do it in an afterlife.

Having taken this step, it then becomes a virtue in Christianity, for the crowd to be a corrupt failure. This crowd is then said to be following free will. It's true that it is, but being a corrupt, overpopulated, mal-adapted crowd, it has no free will. Christianity could be said to be a unilateral individual's attempt to go against the crowd, no matter what the consequences. It's true that you have the free will to give all your money away, but gosh darn, something seems to stop you. The Pope could run around in a Pope mobile with no armoured walls on it, but gosh darn, it seems ever more pragmatic to have glass walls on it, even though it would show off his Christianity magnificently, if he was persecuted and died, or if he was shot at, and the bullet just crumpled on his forehead.

Quite obviously, the Pope has the free will to believe what's written in the Bible, but chooses not to. In other words, the Bible has not convinced the Pope on riskier issues.

Did you just notice that I took you down a path, with a massive contradiction? It took me all my lunch time to figure that one out.

Arguably, as individuals, we are compelled by mob rule to behave the way we do. Yet, this is our "free will" from A&E heritage. Then, I would get no arguments from Christians, when I say that it's my ultimate free will to give all my money way, and behave as a Christian should. But I would only do that, if I truly believed the Bible, and had my free will taken away.

The solution to this, is that if you follow the Bible because you believe it, then you have no free will. If you follow it out of "faith", even though you don't believe it, then you have free will.

The two conclusions are that (1) people who have faith and free will, don't believe the Bible, (2) those who do believe the Bible have no free will, and will go to Hell.

Obviously, the Pope has no faith, and doesn't believe the Bible. (Also, he has no free will, because he is constrained by mob rules.)

I think all conundrums have been solved. However, there may be group (3) who believe the Bible, and pretend they don't, so they can pretend they have faith.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Free will proves that the Bible is unconvincing ...
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2014, 06:15:48 AM »
Wheels5894 wrote:
Quote
What, you mean like Lucifer? Who knows?

That brings up an interesting point in that for the Lucifer story to be possible, it must also be possible for sin to occur in heaven. Lucifer is the proof of concept for sin in heaven.

The god doesn't like sin in heaven, and will cast it out when it occurs, but it apparently CAN occur!

So the theists who insist there can be no sin in heaven should have a problem with the whole Lucifer thing since it completely contradicts them.

Hmmm!
Denis Loubet