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Offline screwtape

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2014, 02:59:14 PM »
With respect to boots and wheels, the title of this thread is "The New 'Ask Skeptic' Thread". While your answers are academically accurate, neither of you is Skeptic.  Let's allow Skep to answer the questions put to him before we tackle it.  Thanks.   
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Offline JoeNobody

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2014, 05:19:51 PM »
I have some questions.

How important is it for a christian to remain humble?  Do you consider yourself humble? And, Do you think that you come across as such in your posts here?

Thank you.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2014, 08:30:44 PM »
I'm just sensing, since you seem to have been withdrawn for a while, that this thread, though probably well-intentioned, is also proving to be a bit too much.

A few people (two or three, anyway) have suggested one-on-one debates lately, I think. Why not take up one of those if you are feeling overwhelmed? Any really good points made by the"peanut gallery" (as it were) can be integrated into the debate if they are compelling enough. Or try the shelter. If I recall correctly, only three atheist posts are allowed at a time until the resident theist gets to address the questions posed.

I do think that as much as some people here get a bit frustrated with your posting style, many of them would actually be interested in hearing and debating some real points with you, but it gets to feeling like a game of keep-away, or monkey-in-the-middle or something, where points are being thrown back and forth, and just because someone gets the ball long enough to add their two cents doesn't mean it's ever going to actually get addressed. The ball just keeps flying, collecting more questions all the time and not stopping long enough in any one place to really discuss any single point.

Wouldn't you like to get a breather and be able to present your case where one thing at a time gets discussed? Or where you can present a well-thought-out rebuttal to something which you feel has been misunderstood? Or are you just all about playing some sort of whack-a-mole game wherein as long as you can hit back, you can feel as though you have won the point? Because that's really not the way discussions work in real life.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2014, 11:47:48 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

I am taking advantage of the Moderators saying it is OK for a theist to ask questions.

In Genesis 6:1-6 and Numbers 13:30-33 the Nephillim are mentioned.  Who do you think the Nephillim were and how did you come this conclusion?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Glad to have you in the discussion OCG!

But this is not something that falls under "Biblical problems," unless you can tell me there is some kind of problem with the Nephillim.
The Nephillim, in my opinion, are not a Biblical problem.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2014, 11:51:26 PM »
No, an orderly universe PROVES God. No physicist has an explanation for how the laws of physics came into being. The best they can say is, "That's just the way it is," which is coincidentally, the same reason we theists use for how God got there.

Our universe is not orderly.

There is more known about how the laws of physics came to be than you think.

I believe the universe is extremely orderly. It can only snow under certain conditions, rain under certain conditions, freeze under certain conditions, steam  under certain conditions, speed of light has a speed limit to it, DNA has instructions for processing sugar when DNA can not think by itself, etc etc etc.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2014, 11:57:12 PM »
Why did God give the commandment thou shalt not kill and then inspire Moses to command people to stone people to death?

I was under the impression that it does not fall under God's category of "killing," but instead under "punishment."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2014, 06:46:48 AM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

I am taking advantage of the Moderators saying it is OK for a theist to ask questions.

In Genesis 6:1-6 and Numbers 13:30-33 the Nephillim are mentioned.  Who do you think the Nephillim were and how did you come this conclusion?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Glad to have you in the discussion OCG!

But this is not something that falls under "Biblical problems," unless you can tell me there is some kind of problem with the Nephillim.
The Nephillim, in my opinion, are not a Biblical problem.
OCG asked you who you thought the Nephilim were. They are a problem as the translation of the term is disputed and their breeding with humans was one of the causes of the Flood.

They thus are important and their identity and Biblical role is a problem.

Please address the question.

GB Mod
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2014, 06:48:07 AM »
Why did God give the commandment thou shalt not kill and then inspire Moses to command people to stone people to death?

I was under the impression that it does not fall under God's category of "killing," but instead under "punishment."

Did the punishment inevitably end in death?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2014, 07:09:55 AM »
I believe the universe is extremely orderly. It can only snow under certain conditions, rain under certain conditions, freeze under certain conditions, steam  under certain conditions, speed of light has a speed limit to it, DNA has instructions for processing sugar when DNA can not think by itself, etc etc etc.

A limited number of conditions does not make the universe orderly. Think of the universe as a game of sport. There are fixed conditions when someone can hit a ball, run, score points etc, but the game is still chaotic, people still have their teeth knocked out, suffer injuries, and end up in hospital. The universe is chaotic like that, it will make your car breakdown, make you walk in the snow when the weatherman said it would be sunny, and kill you when you step in front of a car whose brakes don't work, that is if a random hurricane or flood doesn't kill you first.

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2014, 07:33:33 AM »
I believe the universe is extremely orderly. It can only snow under certain conditions, rain under certain conditions, freeze under certain conditions, steam  under certain conditions, speed of light has a speed limit to it, DNA has instructions for processing sugar when DNA can not think by itself, etc etc etc.

A limited number of conditions does not make the universe orderly. Think of the universe as a game of sport. There are fixed conditions when someone can hit a ball, run, score points etc, but the game is still chaotic, people still have their teeth knocked out, suffer injuries, and end up in hospital. The universe is chaotic like that, it will make your car breakdown, make you walk in the snow when the weatherman said it would be sunny, and kill you when you step in front of a car whose brakes don't work, that is if a random hurricane or flood doesn't kill you first.

This, of course, just begs for the theist to answer that the game (universe) was designed to be orderly, and anything else is a result of human error. Well, minus the hurricanes or floods, but those can always be explained away by "god's plan".

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2014, 07:56:45 AM »
The universe doesn't need human error to mess things up. There is a law of thermodynamics which says - if it can go wrong it will. Now that sounds like a thoughtful design for a god to put in the universe, or was that particular law Satan's invention after Yahweh lost control?

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2014, 07:58:04 AM »
....I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that......I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

Skeptic, I will remind you that we have a long-standing solution to this problem, which we call The Debate Room.  It allows two people to thoroughly examine a particular topic, without the critical time pressures or the problems of having multiple questions being asked in one thread.

I believe this solution has been put to you before, but I cannot recall what your reasons were for not wanting to go down this route.  From what you said above - wanting to respond in detail before you had umpteen other questions appear in the thread - it would seem that the debate room would be an ideal solution for your needs.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2014, 08:02:57 AM »
But this is not something that falls under "Biblical problems," unless you can tell me there is some kind of problem with the Nephillim.
The Nephillim, in my opinion, are not a Biblical problem.

Ohh? Really?

So GIANTS...yes...GIANTS! Are not an issue? At all?



How many of these do you see each day? Or heck, how many have been found as fossils?
If you say a numeral value higher than Zer0, get off the LSD.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2014, 08:08:03 AM »
Quote from Foxy Freedom

Quote
The universe doesn't need human error to mess things up. There is a law of thermodynamics which says - if it can go wrong it will. Now that sounds like a thoughtful design for a god to put in the universe, or was that particular law Satan's invention after Yahweh lost control?

I thought that was Murphy ;)

Anyway, sometimes it feels as though it hardly matters what we say because theists will always find a way to twist it to their own ends. As long as you call it a "law", they will claim that god designed it to work that way, even if that does mean chaotically. There are only two possible reasons for anything in their minds; either it was designed perfectly by god according to his plan, or it was corrupted due to sin.

Somehow, though, I've never heard a really good reason for god's perfect plan to include sin, though. Free will doesn't cut it, because if you subscribe to that, it simply means that sin was somehow part of the plan to begin with, so god can hardly be pissed about it.

How about that for a Biblical issue, Skeptic? I know it's been asked in many iterations before, but I don't recall ever hearing an answer. God created the garden, Adam and Eve, etc, perfect. What was his plan? Did his plan get messed up from the very start (since he must have known that giving them free will would inevitably lead to sin sooner or later)? If so, it wasn't much of a plan to begin with. Or did his plan include sin, the fall, and the subsequent events which would lead to Jesus' redemption? If so, then why would he be so angry about sin? Where would his plan have been without it?

edited to add the quote I was responding to
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 08:10:14 AM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline junebug72

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2014, 10:46:15 AM »
Why did God give the commandment thou shalt not kill and then inspire Moses to command people to stone people to death?

I was under the impression that it does not fall under God's category of "killing," but instead under "punishment."

You believe in a cruel God Skeptic.  That makes you a cruel man.  Why would God be cruel?  Why are you cruel?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline JoeNobody

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2014, 04:46:13 PM »
Quote from Foxy Freedom

Quote
The universe doesn't need human error to mess things up. There is a law of thermodynamics which says - if it can go wrong it will. Now that sounds like a thoughtful design for a god to put in the universe, or was that particular law Satan's invention after Yahweh lost control?

I thought that was Murphy ;)

Not according to TVTropes.org. (Warning! Extreme time sink)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MurphysLaw

What most people think of when they talk about Murphy's Law is actually

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinaglesLaw



Back to the topic at hand, I know Skeptic is on the moderated list, but I wondered if he even saw my questions.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2014, 05:15:22 PM »
^^^Yeah, thanks.

Just lost yet another half hour on this site, muzzily skipping from link to link like a sci-fi character with a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PuppeteerParasite.

Should be marked NSFW bigtime. The most referentially self-referential site on the interwebs, and that's saying something.

Wasn't there a sci fi story about an alien invasion force that used really cool and compelling-- but pointless-- scientific research as a distraction to keep smart people occupied so they were unable to discover the real truth-- that they were being invaded by an alien invasion force? Surely there's a TV Trope name for it.... Genius Diversion Division or Sucking Nerd Quicksand or Another Commie Metaphor or something?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2014, 06:45:12 PM »
Just lost yet another half hour on this site, muzzily skipping from link to link like a sci-fi character with a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PuppeteerParasite.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2014, 07:01:45 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

I am taking advantage of the Moderators saying it is OK for a theist to ask questions.

In Genesis 6:1-6 and Numbers 13:30-33 the Nephillim are mentioned.  Who do you think the Nephillim were and how did you come this conclusion?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Glad to have you in the discussion OCG!

But this is not something that falls under "Biblical problems," unless you can tell me there is some kind of problem with the Nephillim.
The Nephillim, in my opinion, are not a Biblical problem.

Let us try this again.  The question is two pronged.  You have explained you do not consider the Nephillim a Biblical problem.  Fair enough.  The second prong is how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2014, 07:09:34 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

In Revelation 13:18, the number of the second beast is 666.  Per a footnote in my NIV Bible, some of the earliest manuscripts read 616. 

Do you think 666 is correct or 616 and why?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2014, 04:23:08 AM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

In Revelation 13:18, the number of the second beast is 666.  Per a footnote in my NIV Bible, some of the earliest manuscripts read 616. 

Do you think 666 is correct or 616 and why?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

I think it's very interesting you are here in this thread when we haven't finished our conversation.  How Rude!  Talk about tucking your tail and running.  That is hard to respect.  Even more interesting that Skeptic or Jesuis has not attempted to enlighten me either.

You trolled my thread.  So anxious to spread the gospel to atheist but do not care about my soul.  Christians never have.

I won't let this go.  I feel very strongly about the dishonor religion brings to the name Jesus. This ignoring me crap ain't cutting it.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2014, 05:37:10 AM »
AA I was given the advice in another thread to engage Christians in their threads.  Was that not good advice? 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2014, 05:45:40 AM »
AA I was given the advice in another thread to engage Christians in their threads.  Was that not good advice?

The Christian in THIS thread is Skeptic, OCG is simply adding in.

If you want to discuss with him, make a new thread for that purpose, or engage in a debate.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2014, 06:54:34 AM »
I think it's very interesting you are here in this thread when we haven't finished our conversation.  How Rude!  Talk about tucking your tail and running.  That is hard to respect.  Even more interesting that Skeptic or Jesuis has not attempted to enlighten me either.

You trolled my thread.  So anxious to spread the gospel to atheist but do not care about my soul.  Christians never have.

I won't let this go.  I feel very strongly about the dishonor religion brings to the name Jesus. This ignoring me crap ain't cutting it.

JB,

This is off topic.  If you feel he's trolling you, please report the post.  Thanks.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2014, 10:43:17 AM »
I must recant the accusation of trolling.  I misunderstood the definition.  My deepest and most sincere apologies OCG.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2014, 07:38:51 PM »
I must recant the accusation of trolling.  I misunderstood the definition.  My deepest and most sincere apologies OCG.

No offense taken.  All is well between us Junebug.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

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Offline screwtape

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2014, 08:00:16 PM »
You should consider changing you screen name to "NiceChurchGuy"
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2014, 08:04:48 PM »
You should consider changing you screen name to "NiceChurchGuy"

Your kind words are truly appreciated.  I am so accustomed to being called "OCG" I'm not sure I would remember to respond if I saw a question directed to "NCG'.  :)

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline median

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2014, 01:19:20 AM »
Why did God give the commandment thou shalt not kill and then inspire Moses to command people to stone people to death?

I was under the impression that it does not fall under God's category of "killing," but instead under "punishment."

HA! Really? So, commanding men, women, and children (in the womb too) to be slaughtered, cut/sliced open, or horrifically run through with the sword until their heart stops beating and they are no longer alive is called "punishment" and is NOT killing?? Listen to yourself with this disgusting rationalization for your book you believe in. You don't have any sense of intellectual honesty, do you? That is clearly killing and you know damn well that it is. But you just can't admit it b/c if you did you would have to abandon your beliefs which you have invested in so heavily. WOW.

Vile.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan