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Offline skeptic54768

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The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« on: March 16, 2014, 01:30:46 AM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Graybeard

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2014, 07:25:25 AM »
"Biblical Problems" is a very wide subject, and you are likely with this thread to find yourself having kicked a hornets' nest[1]

The main Biblical problem is the lack of application of common sense and the lack of questioning of the truth of the statements in the Bible and the applicability of the advice[2] to modern life and morals. Most objectionable are the denials of known facts and the downright lies[3].

The Judeo-Christian god Yahweh does state that he is a jealous god and demands utter, unquestioning obedience and this leads to there being no difference between the devout Christian and the fundamentalist Muslims and Orthodox Jews.

Religion acts as a drug. Many people say "I can handle it." but there are sufficient numbers who cannot and not only live their lives in an irrational manner, but try to insist that others do too.

I cannot think of a state that has been ruled by the Church/priests that has actually gone on to its full potential. If we look at Iran, we have an example of an oil-rich state that, for no reason simply hates other states. You can make the point that North Korea, an allegedly atheist state does much the same, however, you need only look at the parallels between a theocracy and the god-like status of its past leaders to see that religion is an aid to this "utter obedience even in the face of common sense." attitude.

Look at Old Church Guy - he is perfectly reasonable - he can "handle religion" but you do not have to look too far to see the way that religion is used as a vehicle for justifying prejudice and violent excess.

The Bible can be taken as supporting too many lunatics -> that is its problem.
 1. ...and by the way, I agree that on WWGHA the defence of god is a full-time job. Simply having time to read all the responses is a challenge.
 2. which is not seen as 'advice' but a command
 3. YECs, Creationists
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 07:27:21 AM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline junebug72

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2014, 08:02:27 AM »
Yes GB a hornets nest indeed. 

If you don't want to be bombarded you should post in the shelter and chose maybe to start with the book of Genesis and work your way through the bible like that.

Good Luck,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2014, 08:11:00 AM »
I won't be participating in this thread, mostly because my interest in religious fiction is minimal, but I do suggest, Skep, that if you don't want to be overwhelmed, you get more specific at the very beginning and choose the topic or topics you want to talk about in the bible. Otherwise all 63 books of the bible are available for mocking and thrashing and there is no way you can keep up with that.

We have our favorites: anything silly in genesis, anything exodus, the myriad and varied Jesus stories and of course the humor in revelation. So if you're hoping that we talk about psalms or Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz or your god opening up the earth and having it swallow Korah and his followers (great story, that), you should bring up such preferences yourself rather than hoping that god will guide us to talk about the things you want to talk about. Because that isn't likely to happen.

Short version: If you don't want to get overwhelmed, pick the subject yourself. Otherwise you'll be on defense 24/7, and as you know, that's never fun.

Be glad I'm out of this. I'd end up talking about the how unlikely it is that Shamgar killed 600 warriors with a cattle prod. But as a moviegoer, I've watched Arnold and Sly slay by the thousands, so I probably wouldn't be able to put up a very convincing argument.

Anyway, take my advice or prepare to be overwhelmed again. Unless that is your intent. In which case, never mind.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2014, 08:21:15 AM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists.

Bollox.

I was planning to write a post on 10 thorny question for Christians. I thought I would do some research to see if anyone else had come up with some good lists. I came across this one.

http://voices.yahoo.com/top-50-questions-christians-cant-answer-5456379.html?cat=72

Most of the points are pretty hum-drum, until I hit 20 and 21. Then I had to admire his presentation.

Quote
20 - Why would you trust 'God's plan' given his track record of many failures?

21 - A disciple of Christ, Thomas, was a skeptic. He walked with Jesus during his time on earth and physically witnessed with his own eyes certain miracles performed by him such as raising Lazarus from the dead and so forth. However, after the crucifixion, Jesus supposedly rose three days later and Thomas did not believe it was truly him despite being told, prior to the incident by Jesus, that he would rise again in three days. Thomas required physical proof. Jesus allowed him to touch him and feel the wounds in his body to offer that proof to Thomas. Why doesn't god extend the same proof to humans alive today? Those that doubt his existence are no different than Thomas, requiring physical proof and he was a disciple of Jesus himself. If Thomas had been born one generation later, or even living today, he would have burned in hell for all eternity because he would not believe for the lack of physical proof. Paul was born after the death and ascension of Christ. Throughout his life, he did not believe that Jesus was the son of God and even went out of his way to persecute and murder Christians thinking that their religion was a dangerous belief system to practice. Lo and behold a flash of light came out of the sky and Jesus Christ himself appeared to Paul explaining to him that he is actually the one true god. Jesus told him that he was persecuting the followers of the only true faith. From that point on, Paul was a converted Christian. Again, if God was willing to go out of his way to physically prove to Paul that he actually exists, why is this not done today? Why isn't God willing to show those that doubt today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be any different than Thomas and Paul?

Number 40 was also a good one.

Quote
40 - God allowed Jesus to be tempted as a human by Satan in the wilderness of the desert. Again, if God and Jesus are the same entity, then what kind of sense does it make for God to allow himself to be tempted by Satan in the wilderness to see if he would give in to the temptation? In addition to that, if he were all-knowing, he would have already known the outcome and, therefore, could have avoided the whole thing all together.

None of the points are Biblically based theology problems, but they are good.

I guess what I'm saying, is, Skep: you may be able to waffle on, but you can't actually solve any of these weird problems, because all of them arise because Christianity is an evolving ad-hoc story, of transparent wrongness. You say it's the most beautiful religion in the world, but it has Jesus saying to the Sadducees that God is the God of the living, by using a linguistic con trick, because there was previously no afterlife.

That's not beautiful.


Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2014, 09:13:56 AM »
I don't have a problem with the bible...     it's kind of useless in the 21 century.
 
I can't believe how many trees give up their lives freely for a book.  you would think they would rather be a home for the poor.   &)

we need more tree huggers, not bible thumpers.   
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2014, 09:56:52 AM »
One of my favourites of the moment is Job, I love the craziness!! So, please explain why biblegod thinks that snow and hail are kept in storehouses?

Job 38

The Lord Speaks

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
    or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
    for days of war and battle?


In fact to make it easier for us to understand, if you think it should be interpreted another way, then please write your own Job 38:22 for us in your own words as if you were writing the bible.

If you decide to quote the KJV, then please explain what the 'treasures' of snow and hail are?
And maybe explain which bible version I should trust?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 10:04:00 AM by Ron Jeremy »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 10:59:23 AM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists.

Bollox.

I was planning to write a post on 10 thorny question for Christians. I thought I would do some research to see if anyone else had come up with some good lists. I came across this one.

http://voices.yahoo.com/top-50-questions-christians-cant-answer-5456379.html?cat=72

Most of the points are pretty hum-drum, until I hit 20 and 21. Then I had to admire his presentation.

Quote
20 - Why would you trust 'God's plan' given his track record of many failures?

21 - A disciple of Christ, Thomas, was a skeptic. He walked with Jesus during his time on earth and physically witnessed with his own eyes certain miracles performed by him such as raising Lazarus from the dead and so forth. However, after the crucifixion, Jesus supposedly rose three days later and Thomas did not believe it was truly him despite being told, prior to the incident by Jesus, that he would rise again in three days. Thomas required physical proof. Jesus allowed him to touch him and feel the wounds in his body to offer that proof to Thomas. Why doesn't god extend the same proof to humans alive today? Those that doubt his existence are no different than Thomas, requiring physical proof and he was a disciple of Jesus himself. If Thomas had been born one generation later, or even living today, he would have burned in hell for all eternity because he would not believe for the lack of physical proof. Paul was born after the death and ascension of Christ. Throughout his life, he did not believe that Jesus was the son of God and even went out of his way to persecute and murder Christians thinking that their religion was a dangerous belief system to practice. Lo and behold a flash of light came out of the sky and Jesus Christ himself appeared to Paul explaining to him that he is actually the one true god. Jesus told him that he was persecuting the followers of the only true faith. From that point on, Paul was a converted Christian. Again, if God was willing to go out of his way to physically prove to Paul that he actually exists, why is this not done today? Why isn't God willing to show those that doubt today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be any different than Thomas and Paul?

Number 40 was also a good one.

Quote
40 - God allowed Jesus to be tempted as a human by Satan in the wilderness of the desert. Again, if God and Jesus are the same entity, then what kind of sense does it make for God to allow himself to be tempted by Satan in the wilderness to see if he would give in to the temptation? In addition to that, if he were all-knowing, he would have already known the outcome and, therefore, could have avoided the whole thing all together.

None of the points are Biblically based theology problems, but they are good.

I guess what I'm saying, is, Skep: you may be able to waffle on, but you can't actually solve any of these weird problems, because all of them arise because Christianity is an evolving ad-hoc story, of transparent wrongness. You say it's the most beautiful religion in the world, but it has Jesus saying to the Sadducees that God is the God of the living, by using a linguistic con trick, because there was previously no afterlife.

That's not beautiful.

I noticed on that link that you provided, all of those questions were answered if you scroll down to the comments.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 11:06:29 AM »
The Judeo-Christian god Yahweh does state that he is a jealous god and demands utter, unquestioning obedience and this leads to there being no difference between the devout Christian and the fundamentalist Muslims and Orthodox Jews.

There are 2 kinds of jealous though: good kind and bad kind. God is the good kind of jealous. For example, if your son was getting along with someone else's dad better than you and was always asking to hang out with his friend and his friend's dad, you will feel jealous that you own son doesn't want to hang out with you. This is the good kind of jealous.

The bad kind of jealous would be you being single and not having a son and you see a father playing with his son in the park and you get angry and jealous because you want a son. That is the bad kind of jealous.

Religion acts as a drug. Many people say "I can handle it." but there are sufficient numbers who cannot and not only live their lives in an irrational manner, but try to insist that others do too.

Yes, some people use the religion as an excuse for terrible things.

I cannot think of a state that has been ruled by the Church/priests that has actually gone on to its full potential. If we look at Iran, we have an example of an oil-rich state that, for no reason simply hates other states. You can make the point that North Korea, an allegedly atheist state does much the same, however, you need only look at the parallels between a theocracy and the god-like status of its past leaders to see that religion is an aid to this "utter obedience even in the face of common sense." attitude.

But Christians started building hospitals. Christians started science in order to study God's ordered universe. The Greeks and pagans thought that gods could transform themselves into animals, so they didn't bother studying the laws of nature because they thought they could change on a whim. "Is that a cow or a god? Who knows and who cares?" You can't do science that way. You can only do it in an orderly universe with laws.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 01:17:57 PM »

I noticed on that link that you provided, all of those questions were answered if you scroll down to the comments.

I am merely asking, not commenting. Not all of the answers agreed with each other. Which ones did you find to be absolutely correct?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 01:23:10 PM »
There are 2 kinds of jealous though: good kind and bad kind. God is the good kind of jealous.
I cannot understand why you say that - I really cannot. Even God would call you an idiot for saying that. It could be that you have never heard of various massacres instigated by Yahweh because people did not worship him; it could be that His express commands to worship him or be killed have passed you by.

Basically, you are wrong. There is one kind of "jealous" and it is always negative. Yahweh is psychophysically jealous.
Yes, some people use the religion as an excuse for terrible things.

What do you mean "as an excuse"?! God tells them to do it. Do you want a few genocidal quotes from the OT or a list of things that will happen to unbelievers come Armageddon?

But Christians started building hospitals.
Egyptians and the Chinese had them in pre-Christian times. These are the works of man, not of gods.
Quote
Christians started science in order to study God's ordered universe.
This very similar to a lie. There was no real science back in the day. You either proved God was right, or you were burned at a stake by loving Christians. In non-Christian lands, maths and science flourished - Arabia and China.
Quote
The Greeks and pagans thought that gods could transform themselves into animals,
And Yahweh has taking snakes and donkeys. He has magical horses and weird creatures in Revelations. What is your point?
Quote
so they didn't bother studying the laws of nature because they thought they could change on a whim. "Is that a cow or a god? Who knows and who cares?" You can't do science that way. You can only do it in an orderly universe with laws.
An orderly universe denies God. If the universe is orderly, it has order and God can do nothing but obey the laws, otherwise it is not orderly. Can you actually imagine what would happen if he "Stopped the sun in the sky."?  The best you can say is that God made it and then left.

How many plane makers build in systems to account for God doing something to the aircraft?

I despair! I had hopes that this thread would at least show that you were not as stubbornly obtuse as earlier ones have. Your ignorance, misquoting, irrational conclusions and general lack of any critical thinking mark you out as a person who believes in a magical, invisible man in the sky who has done nothing since the beginning of time, By your not knowing what He has said and done, and making the most ridiculous excuses (not explanations) for Yahweh's intransigence, you define yourself as someone who would rather believe in magic than reality.



 
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 02:01:43 PM »

I noticed on that link that you provided, all of those questions were answered if you scroll down to the comments.

I am merely asking, not commenting. Not all of the answers agreed with each other. Which ones did you find to be absolutely correct?

Yes. I scrolled through all the comments there (and the answers to the questions are only comments by the people reading the article, not some scholarly rebuttal). Of all, I believe, seventy-something responses, only two actually mentioned the specific Thomas question. One (which had quite a lot of standard Christian apologetics) simply glosssed over it with a "Bingo- great question". And the other offered something vague about how no one is going to burn without being given a choice. Which he didn't explain how, and I don't know if it's something you agree with or not, so maybe you can enlighten us.
However, immediately after this was the answer to the next question with "Christians who deny evolution are idiots". Which I know you don't believe, so obviously this guy is not a "true Christian", and his insights should not be taken as necessarily correct.

So, again, as Parking Places asks, can you, as one of the few Christians out there who is not being deceived by demons, give us your own take on these questions?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 02:29:31 PM »
I cannot understand why you say that - I really cannot. Even God would call you an idiot for saying that. It could be that you have never heard of various massacres instigated by Yahweh because people did not worship him; it could be that His express commands to worship him or be killed have passed you by.

Yahweh is the father who gets jealous when people aren't giving him his proper due. Did you miss my analogy to the human father?

Or for a different example, a man who gets jealous when he finds out his wife cheated on him because they are supposed to belong to each other. A man who gets jealous simply because a girl he liked (but wasn't his girlfriend) had sex with another man is the bad kind of jealousy because you don't belong to each other.

We all belong to Yahweh as his children and owe Him his proper respect and dues.


What do you mean "as an excuse"?! God tells them to do it. Do you want a few genocidal quotes from the OT or a list of things that will happen to unbelievers come Armageddon?

Yes, but the unbelievers have the choice of accepting Jesus during the tribulation or rejecting him. Rejection of Jesus has severe consequences, just like rejection of a law has severe consequences (jail).

This very similar to a lie. There was no real science back in the day. You either proved God was right, or you were burned at a stake by loving Christians. In non-Christian lands, maths and science flourished - Arabia and China.

But it wasn't until Christians came along to really study it that it began flourishing.

And Yahweh has taking snakes and donkeys. He has magical horses and weird creatures in Revelations. What is your point?

That is different from donkeys being gods themselves.

An orderly universe denies God. If the universe is orderly, it has order and God can do nothing but obey the laws, otherwise it is not orderly. Can you actually imagine what would happen if he "Stopped the sun in the sky."?  The best you can say is that God made it and then left.

How many plane makers build in systems to account for God doing something to the aircraft?

No, an orderly universe PROVES God. No physicist has an explanation for how the laws of physics came into being. The best they can say is, "That's just the way it is," which is coincidentally, the same reason we theists use for how God got there.

It appears we are not so different after all, which is what I've been saying all along. The only difference between us is the rejection and acceptance of Jesus. Everything else is pretty much the same reasoning.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 04:25:32 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

See, you've already started off on the wrong foot with this wording you are using. You talk about biblical passages that we "find troubling". This shows that you completely misunderstand the situation altogether. There is nothing "troubling" about it. The biblical passages which reference claims to the supernatural or miraculous, and the ones pertaining to the alleged deity Yahweh sanctioning vile acts (along with many other nonsense claims), are quite clear to me...and they are plainly irrational or unsupported. They do not "trouble" me - as if you could somehow just RE-INTERPRET the passages (aka - spin or rationalize them in your favor) and then I will accept them. NOPE! That isn't the scenario here at all. Would you accept such tactics if a Muslim tried them on you? "Oh my friend, please tell me the verses in the Holy Koran that you 'find troubling' and I will clarify them for you [hidden premise: then you can accept them as true, right?]. What's actually troubling is that you are gullible enough to have accepted believing these claims, at the outset, and now refuse to be open to criticism, critical thinking, or correction. What's troubling is that you can't, and won't, be reasoned with.

Your ancient old book makes claims to the supernatural and/or miraculous and since you haven't demonstrated absolutely ANY of these claims to be true we see no reason for accepting such claims (just like you do not accept claims from other holy books, even ones that predate your religion). Make no mistake, I am not "troubled" by your bible. I simply find it's claims in error, false, contradictory, and/or immoral/disgusting (just like you probably see the Koran and Hadith in similar ways). Again, what troubles me is you. Your bible doesn't effect me. But you (and people like you) do.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 04:28:08 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 04:55:20 PM »

There are 2 kinds of jealous though: good kind and bad kind. God is the good kind of jealous....

There it is folks, for all to see. The continuation of religious spin and rationalization right before our eyes. It's a perpetual opening of the door to a hypocritical double standard. For every counterexample a reasonable/rational person can demonstrate (where it is clearly shown that this alleged "God" is violating it's own rules, and clearly NOT moral or "godlike") the Christian must spin the text to say that (no matter what the subject) their view is correct and will-not-be-shown-in-error. So, flying in the face of ALL evidence to the contrary, the Christian WILL not be reasoned with (not that he cannot, but that he WILL not). They absolutely must defend their theological outset assumptions due to their emotional, social, and/or financial investment regardless of intellectual cost.

-Is slavery morally wrong? [INSERT CHRISTIAN DOUBLE STANDARD HERE]
-Is murder morally wrong? [INSERT CHRISTIAN DOUBLE STANDARD HERE]
-Is infanticide morally wrong? [INSERT CHRISTIAN DOUBLE STANDARD HERE]
-Is human sacrifice morally wrong? [INSERT CHRISTIAN DOUBLE STANDARD HERE]
-Is lying morally wrong? [INSERT CHRISTIAN DOUBLE STANDARD HERE]


...and on and on it goes.

So basically, this alleged "God" thing can violate it's own rules but then Christians want to argue that this God is the standard of our morality - it's the rotten double layer cake standard of wanting to have one's cake while eating it too. This is why we say that if you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people. You have abandoned reason for your precommitment to theology and that is the heart of the problem.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2014, 07:04:25 PM »
The Judeo-Christian god Yahweh does state that he is a jealous god and demands utter, unquestioning obedience and this leads to there being no difference between the devout Christian and the fundamentalist Muslims and Orthodox Jews.

There are 2 kinds of jealous though: good kind and bad kind. God is the good kind of jealous. For example, if your son was getting along with someone else's dad better than you and was always asking to hang out with his friend and his friend's dad, you will feel jealous that you own son doesn't want to hang out with you. This is the good kind of jealous.

The bad kind of jealous would be you being single and not having a son and you see a father playing with his son in the park and you get angry and jealous because you want a son. That is the bad kind of jealous.

Religion acts as a drug. Many people say "I can handle it." but there are sufficient numbers who cannot and not only live their lives in an irrational manner, but try to insist that others do too.

Yes, some people use the religion as an excuse for terrible things.

I cannot think of a state that has been ruled by the Church/priests that has actually gone on to its full potential. If we look at Iran, we have an example of an oil-rich state that, for no reason simply hates other states. You can make the point that North Korea, an allegedly atheist state does much the same, however, you need only look at the parallels between a theocracy and the god-like status of its past leaders to see that religion is an aid to this "utter obedience even in the face of common sense." attitude.

But Christians started building hospitals. Christians started science in order to study God's ordered universe. The Greeks and pagans thought that gods could transform themselves into animals, so they didn't bother studying the laws of nature because they thought they could change on a whim. "Is that a cow or a god? Who knows and who cares?" You can't do science that way. You can only do it in an orderly universe with laws.

If you want to defend Yahweh's character, I just started a thread about Yahweh's human weaknesses. These are not just emotional but his limitations of knowledge and limitations of presence in Genesis for example. No theist has taken up the challenge of this thread yet, because it is so difficult to deny that Yahweh is just an imaginary human, with powers, like Superman, only less moral.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26488.msg605738.html#msg605738

Hospitals and charity can be used as expressions of power to impose beliefs on people. It is not surprising that Christians do that or that they use modern technology to impose beliefs on less developed areas of the world.

Christians started modern science in Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries because they hoped to find an orderly universe which agreed with their ideas of a unified design by a single designer. This idea is partly from Genesis where Yahweh imposes order on a pre-existing chaos. The problem with Genesis is that there are two different accounts of creation, neither match reality, and neither are inspired by Yahweh, but are simply versions of a common creation myth in the ancient near east. This leads to a more general problem with the bible, that the ideas in it are borrowed from other religions and just given a different historical context. This applies to both the OT and the NT. The ideas cannot be called inspired by a god in any way.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2014, 10:10:30 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

Is it OK for a theist to ask questions?

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2014, 11:09:21 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

As I state in my smite to your OP, you remind me of teenage girls. I always see topics by teenage girls at this one website who always feel they have the answers on specific questions when in actuality they're just attention whores. They want people to listen to their nonsense online because no one will listen to their nonsense offline or mostly everyone ignores them offline because they keep to themselves based on some abuse they went through. People try not to say anything negative to them because they believe they went through this "abuse" but 99% of the time they are making it up because they, like you, are an attention whore.

It's pitifully sad on their part and yours because on their: there actually are/were abuse and they're pretending it happened to them; you, well, I think you're an "act" to. I am not saying you're not religious or anything what I am saying is your fellow crackpots don't pay you the amount of attention you want so you seek it at places like this.

-Nam
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 11:11:01 PM by Nam »
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2014, 11:33:29 PM »
I noticed on that link that you provided, all of those questions were answered if you scroll down to the comments.

You don't understand the difference between "answering" and being convincing. None of the answers are convincing.

In the case where he answers:

40. To be human.

This can also be solved more consistently with the original text coming from a Jesus who was always seen as human. It shows the story evolving, even with later writers covering it up. There is no place in the NT, where Jesus openly states that he has come to the world to experience it as a human, with no connection to God. It's forensic proof that the NT writers have been evolving the intent of Jesus.

20. Because He's never failed. Getting nailed to a cross counted as a planned victory.

He has failed. The answerer simply fails to admit that God failed all through Genesis. This is not a convincing answer. He gets nailed to a cross, and future writers evolve it into a sacrifice. This is consistent with Jesus being a man who makes a mistake, and not having any power to influence the results.

21. Nice question. But bear in mind what they did; they wrote the manual, as it were, one the Scriptures, the other spread the word as a deciple. He had to show Himself to them in order to engineer the basis upon which all of us can follow Him. Let me insist, NO ONE's going to burn and EVEYONE's going to have a choice. Most of us don't get to see Him because it is better we get to chose. Seeing a splended horror like that would bully us into following Him. Paul executed Christians before God thrust Himself upon Him.

The above is complete crap. It states that Thomas did it, because he knew he was an instrument who was going to spread the Bible, rather than some guy who just doubted. The text is either to polemic the sect of Thomas, or convince the reader, using contrived details; an event that never happened. (Thomas is not a name) Then the answerer tried to convince me that it's better for me to have "free will", even though "free will" is not mentioned in the entire Bible, just like Jesus experiencing humanity is not stated. It's all crap that later philosophers invented, to explain why God can't show himself - oh, except in some fake texts.




You are trying my patience, already.

Are you operating under the premise that you have a lurker audience, or do you think you will convert one of us? What evidence do you have for either case?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 11:39:59 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2014, 04:38:58 AM »
Why did God give the commandment thou shalt not kill and then inspire Moses to command people to stone people to death?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Backspace

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2014, 08:27:42 AM »
Skeptic, you should have taken the advice offered at the beginning of this thread to be more specific in your quest to explain/define your religion/beliefs.  You're already defending yourself on multiple fronts, which you wanted to avoid.

How about a "do-over" where you narrow your focus to a specific point?  ;)
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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2014, 08:40:17 AM »
Yahweh is the father who gets jealous when people aren't giving him his proper due. Did you miss my analogy to the human father? Or for a different example, a man who gets jealous when he finds out his wife cheated on him because they are supposed to belong to each other. A man who gets jealous simply because a girl he liked (but wasn't his girlfriend) had sex with another man is the bad kind of jealousy because you don't belong to each other.
No, not at all, but I saw it as the psychopathic human father who kills his wife and children and never questions his own motives. These people are either taken off to Squirrel Farms or locked up for life.

But you seem to think this is praiseworthy?
Quote
We all belong to Yahweh as his children and owe Him his proper respect and dues.
No. No we do not. Yahweh is your invisible friend. You think he is real. I don't and even if I did I would not worship some Middle Eastern god of war.

What do you mean "as an excuse"?! God tells them to do it. Do you want a few genocidal quotes from the OT or a list of things that will happen to unbelievers come Armageddon?

Yes, but the unbelievers have the choice of accepting Jesus during the tribulation or rejecting him. Rejection of Jesus has severe consequences, just like rejection of a law has severe consequences (jail).[/quote]

I hope you see the difference between jail and death followed by eternal, inhumane torture.

Why is it such a big deal to worship any god? Why does it matter? (And don't give me any crap about an after-life. I have spoken to dead bodies and they have never said a word,)

This very similar to a lie. There was no real science back in the day. You either proved God was right, or you were burned at a stake by loving Christians. In non-Christian lands, maths and science flourished - Arabia and China.

But it wasn't until Christians came along to really study it that it began flourishing.[/quote]
Are you homeschooled?

Hospitals were primitive in Christian times as the Church forbade dissection of the dead. It was not until the Enlightenment (i.e. the time when the Churchs' posers diminished, that real science could start. Even into the late 18th century, hospitals were basically places of death with quack medicine and brutal surgery.

The advances were made in anaesthetics and hygiene following the discoveries of Priestly (Nitrous Oxide), germ theory (Pasteur) and Carbolic Acid (Lister). Pasteur's work was rubbished by ignorant Christians.

Please do not post on this board things that are untrue and deeply ignorant. We do not want your ignorance and superstition.

Quote
And Yahweh has taking snakes and donkeys. He has magical horses and weird creatures in Revelations. What is your point?

That is different from donkeys being gods themselves.

What is the matter with you? Why cannot you see the obvious? Why do you post the first excuse that enters your mind? What is the difference between a cat that is a god and an invisible being that is a god?

Quote
No, an orderly universe PROVES God. No physicist has an explanation for how the laws of physics came into being.
Yes they can but first there was matter and then there were laws. Laws do not exist on their own. Laws apply to things.
Quote
The best they can say is, "That's just the way it is,"
You simply are too uneducated to understand, aren't you. They do not say this. Their answer is perfect. It is explained by internal forces within an atom.
Quote
which is coincidentally, the same reason we theists use for how God got there.

No. "You theists" say, "An invisible something magicked us into existence."

How silly is that?

Quote
It appears we are not so different after all
Either you have understood nothing or are insulting me. I am nothing like you at all and, you are nothing like anyone I know.
Quote
The only difference between us is the rejection and acceptance of Jesus. Everything else is pretty much the same reasoning.
No. You do not reason. You state lies and ignorance as if they were the truth. You know nothing about how anything works and explain it all by saying "God did it." You know nothing of history and invent it by making it up similar to what Iron Age peasants thought was an explanation.

A Christian Lesson for skeptic

Let me give you a lesson given first by Saint Augustine (A.D. 354-430) in his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim) this provides excellent advice for all Christians who are faced with the task of interpreting Scripture in the light of scientific knowledge. This translation is by J. H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41.

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience.

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2014, 12:59:19 PM »
No, an orderly universe PROVES God. No physicist has an explanation for how the laws of physics came into being. The best they can say is, "That's just the way it is," which is coincidentally, the same reason we theists use for how God got there.

Our universe is not orderly.

There is more known about how the laws of physics came to be than you think.
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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2014, 04:29:52 AM »
There is more known about how the laws of physics came to be than you think.

1. possible conceptions of gods, due to the universe existing
2. proof that Yawnweh exists
3. proof that Yawnweh was the creator

I don't think we should go there, when there is such fertile ground in between, which Skep can't see, because he has a cognitive disorder; perhaps encephalitis. I'm talking in between this red text, because it's like a cone of silence. Everyone else on the forum can read this, but Skep can't.
4. proof that Yawnweh is the only god
5. proof that we are supposed to worship that god
6. proof that their personal interpretation of doctrines is correct, to allow pointfull worship
7. let's worship Yawnweh.
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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2014, 08:51:44 AM »

Is it OK for a theist to ask questions?

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Of course.

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RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2014, 10:11:25 AM »

Is it OK for a theist to ask questions?

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Of course.

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sorry.  I would have answered that, but I thought OCG was goofing around.

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2014, 12:13:00 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

I am taking advantage of the Moderators saying it is OK for a theist to ask questions.

In Genesis 6:1-6 and Numbers 13:30-33 the Nephillim are mentioned.  Who do you think the Nephillim were and how did you come this conclusion?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2014, 01:19:45 PM »
It has occurred to me that some of the stuff I say to the atheists may be hurtful and rude, and even offend some of the atheists. I would like to apologize for this. I am sorry.

Reading over the posts again, it appears I "rush" to get a post in before the thread starts becoming swamped with more responses. As a result, the quality is diminished and I get asked 3 more questions on top of that.

i was thinking about leaving the board altogether and moving on to another message board, but I decided to give myself one more chance to see if I have a discussion with you guys and do better on my end. Remember, I do not want the thread going out of control with 15 people writing 15 questions and then me being yelled at that I can't keep up.

I propose starting a discussion about "Biblical problems" that atheists find troubling. This way we won't get sidetracked with people asking me questions about the historicity of Jesus, certain types of denominations, Fundamentalism, or immaterialism. Let's focus on simple Biblical problems for now. Once this topic has been discussed thoroughly, then I can start a new topic in this same thread about something else related to Christianity. I want to give everyone a chance to throw me their worst sinkers, sliders, and knuckleballs.

So, let's get the ball rolling with "Biblical Problems."

I am taking advantage of the Moderators saying it is OK for a theist to ask questions.

In Genesis 6:1-6 and Numbers 13:30-33 the Nephilim are mentioned.  Who do you think the Nephilim were and how did you come this conclusion?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Interesting question, given the lack of use of the word in the OT. There are only 2 uses of NephilimWiki and we don't even quite understand the Hebrew root of the word or exactly what it means. Though BDB uses the word 'giant' it is also quite possible that it could means something rather different. Personally, I'd say we just don't know and that we may never know what the word means and just what the pericopae are really about.

If it does indeed mean 'giants' then it would appear to be a folk tale - probably from other than Hebrew sources.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: The New "Ask Skeptic" Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2014, 01:28:54 PM »

In Genesis 6:1-6 and Numbers 13:30-33 the Nephillim are mentioned.  Who do you think the Nephillim were and how did you come this conclusion?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Oh!  Oh!  I know, I know!  (or, Blizzard Entertainment knows)

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Nephalem

[/thread derail]
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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