Author Topic: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge  (Read 1516 times)

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Offline hickdive

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2014, 11:55:38 PM »
I think all you non-believers had better watch out. He's got a list and He's checking it twice. He's going to find out who's naughty or nice.
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2014, 02:02:26 AM »
While I certainly see what you are trying to do, it is not the same thing as belief in God.

Do you? Do you honestly see what I'm trying to do? Do you see what I've done?

You may be right that there is no definitive way to 100% prove that Santa doesn't exist, but this means that you believe Santa is not real. You probably believe a lot of things are not real. That is fine.

Well gee, thanks for your, er, approval.

I just find it shocking and odd that the atheists don't just call it a belief. There's always all these word games and semantics to get out of saying that it is a belief.

Try to see it from the theistic point of view for a better understanding.

"I just find it shocking and odd that the a-Santa Clausists don't just call it a belief"

Skep, I simply took YOUR OP, word-for-word, and changed the word 'atheist' for a-Santa Clausist each time it appeared. Both Yaweh and Santa Claus are fictional characters. Tell me, how is your fictional character any more real than mine? Why does your fictional character get special consideration? Why is your definition of an atheist not the same as my definition of an a-Santa Clausist?

Do you have a non-belief in your non-belief of Santa? Can you not see how stupid that sounds?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2014, 03:31:07 AM »
You may be right that there is no definitive way to 100% prove that Santa doesn't exist, but this means that you believe Santa is not real. You probably believe a lot of things are not real. That is fine.

Ha ha. I wondered if he'd do this one. It was going to be Option D on my list, but I didn't do it, because it's not funny enough.

Skep, the PREMISE is that she believes in Santa, like a little child. Jesus told us to be like little children, and they all believe in Santa.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2014, 04:34:58 AM »
Why do you hate Santa so much Skep? Is it because He didn't bring you the presents you asked for as a child? Is that why you've chosen to not believe in Him anymore? Why not just ask Him again, but this time with sincerity in your heart - He's always listening and He cares for every person on the whole planet.

Fall on your knees and beg forgiveness for all that hate you've held in your heart for so long, and I am sure He will forgive you immediately. It's that simple. You just need to have faith.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2014, 07:54:18 AM »
Figured this would have been brought up by now...

From http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~dufour/HUMOR/Santas.html :

Quote
1) No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen.

2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total - 378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at least one good child in each.

3) Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we will accept), we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75-1/2 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc.

This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man- made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour.

4) The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload - not even counting the weight of the sleigh - to 353,430 tons. Again, for comparison - this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth.

5) 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flame almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.

In conclusion - If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2014, 08:09:28 AM »
That's a lot of fun but I am sorry to say we have to challenge the facts in the article. I feel it makes too many assumptions which are unproven and which limit Santa only to our human way of doing things.

1.Obviously, Santa is not a human but superbeing - an ordinary human could not possibly do the job Santa has to do on Xmas eve. Thus is neither reasonable  or sensible to limit Santa to ordinary laws of physics which he, almost certainly, is free from. For example, as a superbeing he may well be able to appear and do his stuff in multiple houses at the same time which would reduce the task.

2. The whole question of time is a difficult one but I wonder is, actually, Santa can manage some form of time dilation whereby the period of time when he has to make his deliveries is extended to allow him the time he needs. Anyone can remember, that as a child, there was interminable waiting for presents on Xmas eve.

3. As I mentioned in a previous post it is unlikely that Santa works alone - even if it appears so in the picture. The fact is that no one has seen him at work with a sleigh and reindeer so that we actually don't know how he works. We do know, though, that he has lots and lots of helpers who do shopping on his behalf and place presents in living rooms on his behalf too. Again the effect is to reduce the time it takes for his job to be done.

So, with multiple deliveries by Santa, time dilation to give more time for the job and finally an army of helpers who work for him, I see no reason not to believe in Santa - in fact all the evidence points to his existence (and one gets a sack of soot if one doesn't believe too!)
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2014, 08:26:40 AM »
Ho ho ho jdawg70! Just because you don't understand Santa doesn't mean he doesn't exist! Have you looked everywhere in the North Pole? Let me explain your silly questions;

Santa can get round every child because ...*magic*... and his reindeer can easily handle the weight of the sleigh because of ...*magic*.... Now I see you questioned how reindeer can fly; well that's just Santa Reality 101. I'll explain exactly how they do it. You see they can fly because ...*magic*..., simple when it's explained, eh?

You asked how the reindeer and sleigh can survive the heat generated? Well Santa uses ...*magic*... which explains that issue. Centrifugal force isn't a problem because scientists have calculated it wrong. I don't have time to look it up now, but it is wrong. And Santa doesn't weigh 250 pounds, his weight is symbolic.

You've also made the mistake of thinking that Santa is alive in the sense that we are alive. Santa is neither alive nor dead, he inhabits a realm both outside and inside our own. He is three; Santa Claus, Saint Nicholas and Father Christmas, for did Santa Claus not send his only begotten son Saint Nicholas to the world to distribute gifts?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2014, 08:37:02 AM »
You know, posting on this thread has actually explained to me how theists think! My post post above; when you're not restricted by reality, you can make any thing happen! As long as I refuse to accept reality has limits, I could actually start to believe in Santa. I've read before comments about theists having a loose grip on reality, but only now, writing here, can I start to see it. Is it that atheists have a firm barrier between reality and unreality while theists like Skeptic have nothing more than a tiny toy sized fence between reality and unreality? To them reality and unreality blend, anything is indeed possible?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2014, 08:50:54 AM »

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2014, 08:54:12 AM »
Good point, Ron! There is this problem of a connect between unreality and reality. If we discount religion, then all our choices and beliefs are based on what we can see and what we can know - or rather that can be known by humans more generally (I haven'r checked relativity personally but it is true apparently!)

Religious belief requires that there is something other than the material universe in which we find ourselves which I am sure, to come people is a very comforting thing. In fact, though, it is as much make-believe are Hogwarts! the only way one can make sense of the idea of a god and a heaven is to conceive of them in ways to avoid the obvious objections that are made by science and common sense. Thus IDers tend to explain that whilst life on earth is very complex - so complex to have developed on its own without intervention - the 'designer' / god is actually very simple so would not need designing. Then there is always the idea that this god thingy is eternal and thus did not need creating though, frankly, that sounds hogwash! I think believers really do go overboard in creating ideas to explain the inexplicable to justify their faith.

As for Santa, well we have evidence of him in the presents on Xmas day. What more evidence is needed? For a god there is no evidence, no contact... just an ancient books whose writers we don't know and even when they wrote. Santa wins hands down!

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2014, 09:16:53 AM »
You know, posting on this thread has actually explained to me how theists think! My post post above; when you're not restricted by reality, you can make any thing happen! As long as I refuse to accept reality has limits, I could actually start to believe in Santa. I've read before comments about theists having a loose grip on reality, but only now, writing here, can I start to see it. Is it that atheists have a firm barrier between reality and unreality while theists like Skeptic have nothing more than a tiny toy sized fence between reality and unreality? To them reality and unreality blend, anything is indeed possible?

the (psychological) difference between religion and santa belief is that the adults promoting the santa myth expect it to have a shelf life as they themselves have been exposed to this myth and have eventually seen through it. This being the case they do not actively try to sustain the santa belief in their children when it begins to falter.

The majority of religious believers never recover from their delusion and so successive generation of believers actively reinforce god beliefs as they have no reason to think that there is a built in obsolescence in this "faith". It is part of their reality much as santa was part of their reality as a child. With no active discouragement or even passive discouragement why would someone stop believing in something that they take as fact?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2014, 09:20:32 AM »
1.Obviously, Santa is not a human but superbeing - an ordinary human could not possibly do the job Santa has to do on Xmas eve. Thus is neither reasonable  or sensible to limit Santa to ordinary laws of physics which he, almost certainly, is free from. For example, as a superbeing he may well be able to appear and do his stuff in multiple houses at the same time which would reduce the task.

Ah.  Conceded.

Quote
2. The whole question of time is a difficult one but I wonder is, actually, Santa can manage some form of time dilation whereby the period of time when he has to make his deliveries is extended to allow him the time he needs. Anyone can remember, that as a child, there was interminable waiting for presents on Xmas eve.

Point taken.  Conceded.

Quote
3. As I mentioned in a previous post it is unlikely that Santa works alone - even if it appears so in the picture. The fact is that no one has seen him at work with a sleigh and reindeer so that we actually don't know how he works. We do know, though, that he has lots and lots of helpers who do shopping on his behalf and place presents in living rooms on his behalf too. Again the effect is to reduce the time it takes for his job to be done.

Hang on a sec - now we're getting a little crazy here.  Santa has...actual helpers?  This is blasphemyNo where in the Word of Claus does it state that he has any helpers.  It may appear that way, but that's only because of our limited understanding of him.  These 'helpers' that you speak of are Santa himself - simultaneously independent of his being and one of his being:

"For there are three that bear the presents of the children, the Santa, the Elvin, and the Red Nose: and these three are one."

You, sir, are being confused by a demon.

Quote
So, with multiple deliveries by Santa, time dilation to give more time for the job and finally an army of helpers who work for him, I see no reason not to believe in Santa - in fact all the evidence points to his existence (and one gets a sack of soot if one doesn't believe too!)

This 'army of helpers' bit is just the Easter Bunnian demonic doctrine.

You've also made the mistake of thinking that Santa is alive in the sense that we are alive. Santa is neither alive nor dead, he inhabits a realm both outside and inside our own. He is three; Santa Claus, Saint Nicholas and Father Christmas, for did Santa Claus not send his only begotten son Saint Nicholas to the world to distribute gifts?

Saint Nicholas?  Father Christmas?

More demonic doctrine.  I think this one comes from either the heretical Book of Yes Virginia or, more likely, a mis-translation of the Letters of Jack Frost to the South Poleians.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2014, 09:27:32 AM »
I think we've now got enough Santa factions to start a war.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2014, 09:52:30 AM »
While I certainly see what you are trying to do, it is not the same thing as belief in God.
Oh?  Please elaborate.

Quote from: skeptic54768
You may be right that there is no definitive way to 100% prove that Santa doesn't exist, but this means that you believe Santa is not real. You probably believe a lot of things are not real. That is fine.
This is the same argument you posted in the other thread.  But there's flaws in your logic.  First off, what about a person who had never heard of Santa to begin with?  It would be silly to claim they had a positive belief in Santa not existing when they'd never heard of him to begin with.  Second, things that exist don't need belief in them to exist.  Electrons and black holes existed long before anyone had even hypothesized that they might exist.  The only time it matters if you believe in something is when it doesn't already exist.  For example, Darth Vader did not exist before George Lucas dreamed him up and made him a character in Star Wars.  But even so, people don't have to believe in him for him to continue being a character in Star Wars - and no amount of belief could empower him to do things outside the realm of fantasy.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I just find it shocking and odd that the atheists don't just call it a belief. There's always all these word games and semantics to get out of saying that it is a belief.
As Add Homonym likes to say, it's the came category of 'belief' that shoe gnomes don't come and move my shoes around either.  I don't consider those things beliefs in the sense of "I believe X doesn't happen", though, because there are other (simpler, more rational) explanations for why my shoes might have moved than to 'believe' that tiny gnomes come and move my shoes around while I'm asleep in bed.  Or, more accurately, for me to believe that those tiny gnomes I just thought up don't exist.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Try to see it from the theistic point of view for a better understanding.
Maybe you should try looking at things from a non-theistic point of view for once?  I mean, it sounds like you're the one having trouble understanding things.  I don't have any trouble understanding why you want people to believe in your god and the things you care about; you have an emotional investment in those things and you want other people to share in it.  I, too, have an emotional investment in things.  The difference between us is that while I want to share my investment in those things with other people, I don't need them to validate my own investment the way you seem to.

Look, if you need to believe in a god, that's fine.  If you need to share your belief in that god, that's also fine.  Knock yourself out.  But you should not act like it's a matter of life or death that other people believe in it.  Not without evidence that you can share with other people, anyway.

----

By the way, my family has a tradition of a specific elf which watches our house for Santa.  Anyone else have that?

Offline median

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2014, 10:53:35 AM »

So let me see if I have this correctly. You hold the possibility that there could be a God, but you don't believe there is a God? You are not saying God isn't real?

But, this opens the door to asking, "Why don't atheists pray?" If God could be real according to you, then why not pray? If you refuse to pray, then you are admitting that you believe there is no God.

Do you ask Unicorns for help when you're in trouble or need to fly somewhere? Do you go out searching for Bigfoots all over the world? Do you seek out aliens in the sky whenever possible because it might be possible that they are real? You don't, do you? So this first line of reasoning is absurd and hypocritical. You keep acting like the default position should be that we just believe every extraordinary/miraculous claim until it's proven false. FAIL! That is the path to falsehood and it is unreliable. It's called being gullible, but of course you practice that method selectively (only with your religion) and not with the other alleged miraculous claims that are out there. You have a double standard.

Second, there is no requirement for me to "pray" ever single day in order to allow for a mere possibility of some "thing" called "god" out there (though I'm quite certain that Yahweh is imaginary and fake). There might be space aliens but I don't see you deliberately donating to organizations that believe in them and are searching for them. Just b/c I don't pray to your imaginary friend "Yahweh" doesn't at all mean that I have eliminated a mere possibility of some alleged "god" thing out there (whatever the heck that might mean). You keep acting like the only options are Yahweh or nothing. But those are not the only two logical possibilities! Just like unicorns, fairies, and Santa there is (strictly speaking) a mere logical possibility that Krishna could be the real deity, and yours the fake one! Or it could be that all the deities are man-made, and not the other way around.

As I said before, you cannot eliminate the mere logical possibility of a big foot (nor can I eliminate a mere logical possibility of some-thing called "god") - just like we cannot eliminate the possibility of magic pink flying pixie monkeys living on the backside of the former planet Pluto!! How about schmarbelfarbens or blarks, can you prove they don't exist?? Wait, you say you don't know what those refer to? Exactly!! And that is what I say when you attempt to use the word "God". But the time to believe something (tentatively btw) is after sufficient evidence has come in, not before! You keep acting like if you can demonstrate that "some-thing" is merely possible that it must be likely. NOPE! Santa Claus is possible too (logically speaking) b/c for all you know there is a magic man who flies around and gives some presents to kids somewhere. Just b/c you haven't seen a Santa doesn't mean Santa isn't real. This is what others have been trying to show you. The honest position is to disbelieve an extraordinary claim (withhold judgment and lack belief) until sufficient evidence has been presented, and you haven't even come anywhere near that.

The problem is that even though some-thing might be logically possible it doesn't mean at all that 1) it has even been coherently defined (which you haven't even attempted to do with this term "god") and 2) that it is somehow statistically plausible or likely, and since you have no data set by which to determine the prior probability of this "god" thing (be it Zeus god, Allah god, Krishna god, Horus, god, Isis god, Mithra god, Yahweh god, or any other imaginary man-made deity etc) you really don't have any rational grounds for saying this "thing" you believe in is anything more than just a figment of your imagination (just like Santa Claus for kids).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 11:14:29 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2014, 11:51:55 AM »
Flying reindeer? Don't be absurd, everyone knows reindeer don't fly.

No, you see santa's sleigh has a warp drive.  What it does is warps or bends spacetime in front of and behind the sleigh.  This warped spacetime causes the sleigh to move at faster than light speed so most (if not all) of that 31 hours is spent by Santa sneaking into houses.  Really, it is almost as if the sleigh and reindeer are not even moving, spacetime moves them and they don't even feel the effect's of moving faster than light.

Of course both the sleigh and Santa's suit are equipped with advanced invisibility cloak technology, in fact MIT is finally catching up to Santa's technology.

Getting into homes without anyone knowing is not difficult when you consider the advance scouting network of elves in disguise.  Why else do you think the human population has skyrocketed in the last century?  What did you think fertilizer and mass transportation systems were the cause?  HA! Don't make me laugh.  The actual cause is that as the human population grew moderately and spread through out the world, elves had to increase in numbers too.  There are probably 500 million elves in the world, keeping tabs on all the homes where deliveries are to be made.

In addition to the scouting network, Santa hacks all of the security networks to get any security system codes necessary to walk right in through the front door.  If that doesn't work, Santa is equipped with many tools to help him gain access quickly and quietly including night vision goggles and equipment that silently unlocks doors or windows.  There is no way Santa's fat ass could fit in chimney's.  You might wonder about animals detecting Santa, well he has a solution to that as well besides being good with animals.  Sometimes Santa gives animals food to keep them occupied or the advance scouting team will mildly drug the animals to keep them calm.

There is even a backup plan in case Santa runs behind schedule, the scouting team of elves are prepped and ready to make the deliveries if necessary. 
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 11:54:56 AM by SevenPatch »
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Boots

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2014, 03:15:46 PM »
I think we've now got enough Santa factions to start a war.

You're all wrong anyway.  I'm an Orthodox follower of Sinterklaas!!  Your "Santa Clause" is just a poor imitation of the original.  Bow and worship, fools.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2014, 04:27:04 PM »
But, this opens the door to asking, "Why don't atheists pray?" If God could be real according to you, then why not pray?

For the same reason I still don't write letters to Santa Claus.  I can't rule out the existence of Santa Claus with 100% certainty.  I could probably be 99.999999999% certain, but I'll probably never be 100% certain.

So if I use your logic, why not write letters to Santa Claus?

Why not look for Easter Bunny eggs?

Why not put any teeth that come out of your mouth under your pillow at night?

Why not check under your bed before you go to sleep just to make sure there are no monsters under there?

Why not check in your closet to make sure the Bogeyman isn't in there?

If you spill some salt, why not throw a pinch of salt over your left shoulder just in case?

Why not knock on wood to avoid tempting fate?

Why not avoid stepping on cracks in order to not break your mother's back?

Why not go out of your way to avoid having a black cat cross your path?

Why would you ever tempt Bloody Mary by standing in front of a mirror with running water, the lights off and say Bloody Mary three times?

Why not pray to other gods?

_________________

The last question is interesting.  I assume the response will be, well the ten commandments says something about not having any other gods before YHWH.  Why not I wonder.  Do those other gods exist or not?  If they do and YHWH isn't answering prayers in a timely fashion, why not see if some other god is available?  Who knows, maybe YHWH contracts prayer answring to other gods now and didn't let us know.

If you refuse to pray, then you are admitting that you believe there is no God.

Who refuses to pray?  I guess some atheists may say they refuse to pray.

Seems silly to me to refuse to pray.  From my point of view, prayer is at best a type of meditation or relaxing exercise and at worst completely meaningless and a waste of time. 

It also depends on what you mean by prayer.  There are times when people say bow your heads for a moment of silence (for someone who is sick or died).  Is having a moment of silence out of respect considered prayer?  I don't think so, I think about the hardship or sacrifice that the person went through or is going through. 

One of my coworkers has a son who has serious medical problems and when we discuss how his son is doing I will sometimes comfort him by letting him know that his son is in my thoughts.  It is true, his son is in my thoughts and I hope his son gets better and wish I could do more to help but I can't, I'm not a doctor.   Is that considered praying?  I'm not praying to a god when I do this, instead I am just concerned about a fellow human being. 

What I do now compared to what I did when I was a Christian is very different.  I didn't pray much when I was a Christian but when I did, most of the time it was to ask for wisdom, guidance or help for others.  Prayers for wisdom or guidance seemed to often work but help for others was fairly inconclusive.  Comparing results of the few instances that when I did pray with the times that I did not revealed that to me that it didn't matter if I prayed or not.

I don't refuse to pray.  I simply have no use for asking for something from something else I do not believe exists.

The same is true for Santa Claus.  I do not believe Santa Claus exists, so I do not write letters to Santa.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline natlegend

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2014, 10:08:23 PM »
I think we've now got enough Santa factions to start a war.

You're all wrong anyway.  I'm an Orthodox follower of Sinterklaas!!  Your "Santa Clause" is just a poor imitation of the original.  Bow and worship, fools.

I myself worship the correct and vengeful Santa...



The rest of you are going to die horribly!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2014, 10:30:17 PM »
Santa knows where you live! Repent! Muhahahaha
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2014, 10:39:36 PM »
As Add Homonym likes to say, it's the came category of 'belief' that shoe gnomes don't come and move my shoes around either.

I had no idea that I liked to say that. I'm thinking that the antiSanta has taken my love of it away, and my memories of it, as well.

You know, for every present that comes out of nowhere, there must be a present that disappears, due to the conservation of presents law.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2014, 11:02:34 PM »
If you refuse to pray, then you are admitting that you believe there is no God.

Who refuses to pray?  I guess some atheists may say they refuse to pray.

It's amazing he can get two things wrong, simultaneously.

I've seen other fundies do this as well, but I'm not sure enough of whether they are trolling, like Skep, to declare my belief that it is a structural brain problem.

There are steps that need to be proven

1. possible conceptions of gods, due to the universe existing
2. proof that Yawnweh exists
3. proof that Yawnweh was the creator
4. proof that Yawnweh is the only god
5. proof that we are supposed to worship that god
6. proof that their personal interpretation of doctrines is correct, to allow pointfull worship

7. let's worship Yawnweh.

The steps in red are totally invisible to Skep.

I theorize that due to their invisibility, I can secrete words and insults into them, and he will not see the insults, because he can only see points 1 and 7. It's like he has been hypnotised by Derren Brown, and thinks that when you count from 1 to 10, you go 1,7,8,9,10.

Let's test the hypothesis, to see if it works.

1. possible conceptions of gods, due to the universe existing
2. proof that Yawnweh exists
3. proof that Yawnweh was the creator
SKEP HAS TWO HORNS, STICKING OUT FROM HIS HEAD, AND HE IS TEH BEAST, SPECIFIED IN RELATIONS 36:19
4. proof that Yawnweh is the only god
5. proof that we are supposed to worship that god
JESUS SAID WE SHOULD ALL HAVE OUR TEETH DONE TO LOOK PEARLY WHITE, SO WE CAN BE IN POSTERS
6. proof that their personal interpretation of doctrines is correct, to allow pointfull worship

7. let's worship Yawnweh.

He cannot see what I have written in blue, because to see it would deprive him of his ability to carry on trolling.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 11:08:09 PM by Add Homonym »
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2014, 12:11:09 AM »
I think all you non-believers had better watch out. He's got a list and He's checking it twice. He's going to find out who's naughty or nice.

Oh crap! He's coming to town, isn't he!

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2014, 12:41:34 AM »
You know, posting on this thread has actually explained to me how theists think! My post post above; when you're not restricted by reality, you can make any thing happen! As long as I refuse to accept reality has limits, I could actually start to believe in Santa. I've read before comments about theists having a loose grip on reality, but only now, writing here, can I start to see it. Is it that atheists have a firm barrier between reality and unreality while theists like Skeptic have nothing more than a tiny toy sized fence between reality and unreality? To them reality and unreality blend, anything is indeed possible?

the (psychological) difference between religion and santa belief is that the adults promoting the santa myth expect it to have a shelf life as they themselves have been exposed to this myth and have eventually seen through it. This being the case they do not actively try to sustain the santa belief in their children when it begins to falter.

The majority of religious believers never recover from their delusion and so successive generation of believers actively reinforce god beliefs as they have no reason to think that there is a built in obsolescence in this "faith". It is part of their reality much as santa was part of their reality as a child. With no active discouragement or even passive discouragement why would someone stop believing in something that they take as fact?

The bold is something I find very insulting. Do all atheists feel as though theists are delusional? Atheists have even admitted that God could be real.

I know I may have said stuff in the past that you guys thought was insulting, but this doesn't mean it's OK to insult me. Forgiveness is supposed to be higher than revenge.

Can you see (from a theistic point of view) how being called delusional is hurtful and insulting?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2014, 12:53:21 AM »
One of my coworkers has a son who has serious medical problems and when we discuss how his son is doing I will sometimes comfort him by letting him know that his son is in my thoughts.  It is true, his son is in my thoughts and I hope his son gets better and wish I could do more to help but I can't, I'm not a doctor.   Is that considered praying?  I'm not praying to a god when I do this, instead I am just concerned about a fellow human being. 

That is something I have always found confusing. With things like medical problems and death and diseases, why would I want to believe that death is the end?

We can all agree that God or no God can neither be proven 100% so since nobody knows for sure, why would you choose the belief that offers nothing? If someone dies, they are just dead vs someone dying and going to heaven. Why would you rather believe they are "dead and gone forever" instead of believing they are in a better place?

In my personal opinion, I feel like it's more heartless to choose to believe in the "dead and gone forever" option.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2014, 01:01:50 AM »
I had a book given to me showing the 5 proofs of Santa, based off the old ontological and teleological proofs for god. Can't find it right now, but this site had a pretty good write up of them that I posted below. Link

Quote
The Santalogical Argument

Santa Claus is by definition the greatest gift giver conceivable.
An actual gift giver is by definition greater than an imaginary gift giver.
If an actual gift giver is greater than an imaginary one, then the greatest gift giver must be an actual one and not imaginary.
But (per premise 1) no gift giver can be conceptually greater than Santa Claus.
Therefore, Santa Claus exists.

The Christmasological Argument
Either the universe had a beginning or has always existed.
...
Therefore Santa Claus exists.

Argument from Christmas Miracles
Miraculous events have been documented to occur at and around Christmas (by multiple eyewitnesses and even mechanical recording devices that never lie, like TV cameras).
...
Therefore Santa Claus exists.

I read these arguments, chuckled a bit, then scrolled down to the comments. I agree with the "Anonymous" poster who was saying that if you give Santa the properties of a non-contingent being, then you have proven a non-contingent being exists regardless of the name you give to it.

"A rose by any other name is still a rose" is the famous quote.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 06:27:41 AM by Graybeard »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline natlegend

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2014, 04:19:11 AM »
There are steps that need to be proven

1. possible conceptions of gods, due to the universe existing
2. proof that Yawnweh exists
3. proof that Yawnweh was the creator
4. proof that Yawnweh is the only god
5. proof that we are supposed to worship that god
6. proof that their personal interpretation of doctrines is correct, to allow pointfull worship

7. let's worship Yawnweh.

The steps in red are totally invisible to Skep.

I theorize that due to their invisibility, I can secrete words and insults into them, and he will not see the insults, because he can only see points 1 and 7. It's like he has been hypnotised by Derren Brown, and thinks that when you count from 1 to 10, you go 1,7,8,9,10.

Let's test the hypothesis, to see if it works.

1. possible conceptions of gods, due to the universe existing
2. proof that Yawnweh exists
3. proof that Yawnweh was the creator
SKEP HAS TWO HORNS, STICKING OUT FROM HIS HEAD, AND HE IS TEH BEAST, SPECIFIED IN RELATIONS 36:19
4. proof that Yawnweh is the only god
5. proof that we are supposed to worship that god
JESUS SAID WE SHOULD ALL HAVE OUR TEETH DONE TO LOOK PEARLY WHITE, SO WE CAN BE IN POSTERS
6. proof that their personal interpretation of doctrines is correct, to allow pointfull worship

7. let's worship Yawnweh.

He cannot see what I have written in blue, because to see it would deprive him of his ability to carry on trolling.


'Yawnweh'... lol

Notice how Skep has abandoned this thread like it's lava. Too hard, Skep? Boy, you must really hate Santa. What has he done to you to deserve such hatred? Or is it simply that you can now see the ridiculousness of your 'challenge' and are hoping that it will all just 'go away'?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2014, 04:25:20 AM »
I think all you non-believers had better watch out. He's got a list and He's checking it twice. He's going to find out who's naughty or nice.
Oh crap! He's coming to town, isn't he!

I personally find the 'he sees you when you're sleeping' bit extremely creepy and disturbing... but at least he won't be sending me to burn for all eternity. Coal these days has its uses, not the least of which is it is useable as a fuel source. Coal/hell - they don't even compare. I know which I'd prefer, it's a no-brainer.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Prove there is no Santa Claus - a challenge
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2014, 04:28:49 AM »
Oh and Skep, just to flog that dead horse a little more, you're yet to prove that Santa doesn't exist. Which means, following your own 'logic', that He does indeed exist, but that you have chosen to not believe in Him.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.