Author Topic: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets  (Read 4480 times)

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #116 on: October 10, 2014, 11:07:29 AM »
Imagine if a small man were attached to your liver, and if disconnected he would die.  I am sure some men would agree to let him stay attached and that is fine.  That is their choice.  But would it not be absurd to argue he had right to your liver?  Accepting that argument, you could conclude that the general populace could be drafted into organ donation, against their will.

I wondered that?   If I the father of a baby was a perfect liver match for my newborn son, could I be compelled against my will to surrender part of my liver to keep him alive?  Why or why not?

I will probably survive the operation, my child will probably live longer because of it,   Can I be compelled to do it as right to lifers propose to compel a woman to carry to term.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #117 on: October 10, 2014, 11:20:58 AM »
^ sort of the point of the book My Sister's Keeper.  A man and woman had a daughter who was sick and in need of a transplant.  So they had another kid solely for the purpose of being a donor.  The second kid got a lawyer because, wtf.

Of course, it is a novel, and thus, fiction, but still makes a good point.

crap.  I just read a true story recently about a guy who was sick and in need of an organ, but his brother would not volunteer, so the sick one sued the other, to compell him to donate.  Ultimately, he lost.  I cannot find it now and google is killing me.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #118 on: October 10, 2014, 11:39:46 AM »
Imagine if a small man were attached to your liver, and if disconnected he would die.  I am sure some men would agree to let him stay attached and that is fine.  That is their choice.  But would it not be absurd to argue he had right to your liver?  Accepting that argument, you could conclude that the general populace could be drafted into organ donation, against their will.

i think that's a stretch... a better analogy would be - imagine a small man temporarily attached to your liver, he is attached because of a decision you made, (set aside the small percentage of rape and incest victims) and he will die if you detach him before such & such a date... after said date you're free to leave him forever... you can see the situation becomes a bit murkier...

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2014, 11:47:13 AM »
Imagine if a small man were attached to your liver, and if disconnected he would die.  I am sure some men would agree to let him stay attached and that is fine.  That is their choice.  But would it not be absurd to argue he had right to your liver?  Accepting that argument, you could conclude that the general populace could be drafted into organ donation, against their will.

i think that's a stretch... a better analogy would be - imagine a small man temporarily attached to your liver, he is attached because of a decision you made, (set aside the small percentage of rape and incest victims) and he will die if you detach him before such & such a date... after said date you're free to leave him forever... you can see the situation becomes a bit murkier...

Not disconnecting the man and allowing said date to arrive could kill you. In addition, you are not free to leave the man forever, unless you want to become a social pariah.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #120 on: October 10, 2014, 12:19:36 PM »
Imagine if a small man were attached to your liver, and if disconnected he would die.  I am sure some men would agree to let him stay attached and that is fine.  That is their choice.  But would it not be absurd to argue he had right to your liver?  Accepting that argument, you could conclude that the general populace could be drafted into organ donation, against their will.

i think that's a stretch... a better analogy would be - imagine a small man temporarily attached to your liver, he is attached because of a decision you made, (set aside the small percentage of rape and incest victims) and he will die if you detach him before such & such a date... after said date you're free to leave him forever... you can see the situation becomes a bit murkier...

Not disconnecting the man and allowing said date to arrive could kill you. In addition, you are not free to leave the man forever, unless you want to become a social pariah.
Wanna keep trying?

ok, set aside the small percentage of rape victims, incest victims and pregnant women who would probably die as a result of child birth... but i think we all agree that the vast majority of abortions are carried out for reasons that are not due to health, rape or incest.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

and furthermore, what do you mean "become a social pariah" by leaving the (once attached to your liver) little man...? let's say you give the man up to be adopted by someone who wants the little man... are women who give their children up for adoption considered "social pariahs"...?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #121 on: October 10, 2014, 02:04:54 PM »
ok, set aside the small percentage of rape victims, incest victims and pregnant women who would probably die as a result of child birth...

And the ones who used birth control and were unlucky enough to have it fail. As for the ones who "would probably die", depending on how you define "probably", it could very well be all of them. Childbirth is always painful and always potentially deadly.

but i think we all agree that the vast majority of abortions are carried out for reasons that are not due to health, rape or incest.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

The ones carried out, yes. How about the ones that are denied?

and furthermore, what do you mean "become a social pariah" by leaving the (once attached to your liver) little man...? let's say you give the man up to be adopted by someone who wants the little man... are women who give their children up for adoption considered "social pariahs"...?

You're asking if having sex (naughty, naughty women!), becoming pregnant (if they didn't want to get pregnant, their bodies would have taken care of it!), having a child (see previous), and dumping them at an adoption agency (to be raised by the hardworking taxpayers of the world) will make someone a social pariah? Nah... I'm sure it won't.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #122 on: October 10, 2014, 03:28:32 PM »
You're asking if having sex (naughty, naughty women!), becoming pregnant (if they didn't want to get pregnant, their bodies would have taken care of it!), having a child (see previous), and dumping them at an adoption agency (to be raised by the hardworking taxpayers of the world) will make someone a social pariah? Nah... I'm sure it won't.

MOD, I NEED A MOD OVER HERE (and i know you're watching because it says so on my avatar!!!)  this comment by OAA is flamebait... ^^^THIS is trolling, and not very interesting or humorous trolling either.  pay attention mods, do not be biased in your use of the "we're watching you" meter... see, these are the things you can learn from watching my posts.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #123 on: October 10, 2014, 04:06:54 PM »
imagine a small man temporarily attached to your liver

but financially dependent for about the next 22 years.

he is attached because of a decision you made

but it was not a given that he would be attached.  I lost a game of chance.  Had I won, he would not have been attached.

he will die if you detach him before such & such a date

Like I said, other people might be fine with having him there.  But that still does not make my liver his liver.

you can see the situation becomes a bit murkier...

not really.  None of the changes you made to the analogy cede rights to my liver to someone else.  In the end, it is still my liver.  And if I get tired of shlepping around a guy, who is tiring me out, straining my liver (and other organs) and causing me to gain weight, I am not obligated to keep the little guy connected.  As I said, in the end, it is still my liver, not his.

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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #124 on: October 10, 2014, 04:34:54 PM »
but financially dependent for about the next 22 years.

but not if you sign away your "little man rights" and let the little man be adopted by another loving family...

not really.  None of the changes you made to the analogy cede rights to my liver to someone else.  In the end, it is still my liver.  And if I get tired of shlepping around a guy, who is tiring me out, straining my liver (and other organs) and causing me to gain weight, I am not obligated to keep the little guy connected.  As I said, in the end, it is still my liver, not his.

fair enough... i get what you're saying.  but we're men, and it may be easy for us to say... meh, just get it outta here... i changed my mind, (or whatever).  but for women, being pregnant is nothing like having a little man attached to your liver... for example, i might enjoy having a little man attached to my liver, especially if by being attached he could help suck up some of the alcohol i routinely pour down my gullet.  but i don't need to tell you that women are different.  women feel different when they're pregnant, just the idea of being pregnant is a game changer for most women.  so again, i'm not sure celebrating the decision to get an abortion as 'all fun and games' is the right message to send...
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #125 on: October 10, 2014, 05:57:55 PM »
MOD, I NEED A MOD OVER HERE (and i know you're watching because it says so on my avatar!!!)  this comment by OAA is flamebait... ^^^THIS is trolling, and not very interesting or humorous trolling either.  pay attention mods, do not be biased in your use of the "we're watching you" meter... see, these are the things you can learn from watching my posts.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #126 on: October 10, 2014, 07:37:48 PM »
And let's also be up front about this - third trimester abortions make up an infinitesimal fraction of all abortions and are pretty much exclusively done because the fetus is severely abnormal or because of health issues for the woman.  So I'm not at all panicked about a theoretical horde of women who are 9 months pregnant rushing out for abortions.  Nor do I think that would be a routine affair.  That is an absurd and unrealistic hypothetical concocted by people who fetishize the fetus.

I think the vast majority of women do not want others to know they are pregnant, so waiting until the third trimester lets that rabbit out of the hat (if not sooner). Getting an abortion in the third trimester would be rare by default.

I also feel an important limit would be to limit the harassment of clinic staff and patients by so-called "pro-lifers".  I feel the "pro-lifers" who do that ought to be treated as what they are - domestic terrorists.  I think they should be video taped, followed home, have their names, addresses and work places posted on the internet and have wanted posters with their faces on them platered around their community.  They should mind their own damn business, or be made social parriahs.

Yeah, these people have to stand in a public for this shit and since it would be newsworthy we don't have to obtain their permission to publish their images.

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Offline albeto

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #127 on: October 11, 2014, 08:35:53 PM »
fair enough... i get what you're saying.  but we're men, and it may be easy for us to say... meh, just get it outta here... i changed my mind, (or whatever).  but for women, being pregnant is nothing like having a little man attached to your liver... for example, i might enjoy having a little man attached to my liver, especially if by being attached he could help suck up some of the alcohol i routinely pour down my gullet.  but i don't need to tell you that women are different.  women feel different when they're pregnant, just the idea of being pregnant is a game changer for most women.  so again, i'm not sure celebrating the decision to get an abortion as 'all fun and games' is the right message to send...

A video that dispels the lie that abortions are inherently traumatic and result in a lifetime of guilt and depression is hardly promoting abortion as "all fun and games." That argument would be silly if so many women weren't callously and deceptively conditioned to feel that way in the first place, or lied about expecting it. Not all women welcome pregnancy, and not all men are emotionally unmoved enough to not recognize their game has significantly changed to know their wives/girlfriends/lovers are pregnant. The analogy of a little man doesn't work for me any more than an analogy of a wart does. A fetus is in constant development, much like a child is. As there is no one point we can conclude objectively and factually that a boy is now a man, there is no point in fetal development we can conclude a few cells is now a wee baby waiting to be born. Don't make the mistake of thinking all women think of the developing fetus as a wee baby waiting to be born, and never a development in process whose termination is a good idea under circumstances to which you may never be aware.

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #128 on: October 13, 2014, 11:43:25 AM »
Imagine if a small man were attached to your liver, and if disconnected he would die.  I am sure some men would agree to let him stay attached and that is fine.  That is their choice.  But would it not be absurd to argue he had right to your liver?  Accepting that argument, you could conclude that the general populace could be drafted into organ donation, against their will.

i think that's a stretch... a better analogy would be - imagine a small man temporarily attached to your liver, he is attached because of a decision you made, (set aside the small percentage of rape and incest victims) and he will die if you detach him before such & such a date... after said date you're free to leave him forever... you can see the situation becomes a bit murkier...

Not disconnecting the man and allowing said date to arrive could kill you. In addition, you are not free to leave the man forever, unless you want to become a social pariah.
Wanna keep trying?

ok, set aside the small percentage of rape victims, incest victims and pregnant women who would probably die as a result of child birth... but i think we all agree that the vast majority of abortions are carried out for reasons that are not due to health, rape or incest.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

and furthermore, what do you mean "become a social pariah" by leaving the (once attached to your liver) little man...? let's say you give the man up to be adopted by someone who wants the little man... are women who give their children up for adoption considered "social pariahs"...?

o.k., alright, alright, alrighty.

listen up fellow wwgha posters... do you see the post above.  i posted a response noting that rape victims, incest victims and situations where the health of the pregnant woman was at stake made up a very small percentage of (the reasons for) abortion.  i back up this claim with the hard facts: http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

the facts are 0.5% of abortions are a result of incest.  1% a result of rape, and 12% a result of physical health problems.  So my claim that these reason make up a very small percent of the reasons women get abortions is truth, backed up by fact.

so can anyone tell me why OAA thought it necessary to give me a -darwin point for this comment with the explanation of (reason), and i quote:  "Rape and incest victims are NOT a "small" percentage"...

anyone...?  when the fact is that rape and incest victims make up less than 2% of overall abortions...?

this is why this site is a joke.  i have jaimehlers telling me it's "unprecedented" that i've racked up so many -darwin points so quickly to which i say, WOW what a shocker when i get them for posting facts.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #129 on: October 13, 2014, 12:45:06 PM »
so can anyone tell me why OAA thought it necessary to give me a -darwin point for this comment

maybe he's a bad sport?
It could be no one likes you. 
Or, could it be he gave you the smite before you posted your link?  Let's look.

smite given: October 10, 2014, 11:48:34 AM
post with link posted:  Reply #120 on: October 10, 2014, 12:19:36 PM

So, you were smote approximately an hour and a half before you posted your evidence.  That's probably why. I think you confused which post of yours received the smite. 118 got the smite.

But whatever the reason, quit whining about it.  Karma is irrelevant and no one loves a whiner.

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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #130 on: October 13, 2014, 01:15:54 PM »
so can anyone tell me why OAA thought it necessary to give me a -darwin point for this comment

maybe he's a bad sport?
It could be no one likes you. 
Or, could it be he gave you the smite before you posted your link?  Let's look.

smite given: October 10, 2014, 11:48:34 AM
post with link posted:  Reply #120 on: October 10, 2014, 12:19:36 PM

So, you were smote approximately an hour and a half before you posted your evidence.  That's probably why. I think you confused which post of yours received the smite. 118 got the smite.

But whatever the reason, quit whining about it.  Karma is irrelevant and no one loves a whiner.

fair enough.  if he did in fact give me the smite prior to my post with the referenced link, so be it.  however, if someone is going to smite someone else with a reason that is verifiable, perhaps it would be wise to "verify" said reason... not that i would expect OAA to have the wherewithal to do so...
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #131 on: October 13, 2014, 01:20:49 PM »
however, if someone is going to smite someone else with a reason that is verifiable, perhaps it would be wise to "verify" said reason...

I quite agree.  Maybe he will acknowledge your correction with a balancing Darwin? 
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #132 on: October 13, 2014, 01:32:09 PM »
however, if someone is going to smite someone else with a reason that is verifiable, perhaps it would be wise to "verify" said reason...

I quite agree.  Maybe he will acknowledge your correction with a balancing Darwin? 

I would, if I agreed with the "very small" categorization. 13.5% (health issues+rape+incest) is hardly "very small". It's over 1 out of every 8 women. Using this very same "logic", then world hunger in developing countries isn't so bad. It's "just" 15% of their combined population.[1]
 1. Source: http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm#Number_of_hungry_people_in_the_world
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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #133 on: October 13, 2014, 01:37:56 PM »
I often wonder if people who think these are insignificant numbers would take the same position if the woman in question were their wife, sister, mother, girlfriend, or another close female, as opposed to a nameless, faceless woman on whom they feel comfortable passing harsh judgments.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #134 on: October 13, 2014, 02:29:59 PM »
I often wonder if people who think these are insignificant numbers would take the same position if the woman in question were their wife, sister, mother, girlfriend, or another close female, as opposed to a nameless, faceless woman on whom they feel comfortable passing harsh judgments.

ain't nobody passing judgement around here... couple of things... the OAA smite in question only qualifies rape victims and incest victims.  go ahead, check out the smite.  so OAA is being a little disingenuous with his 13.5% comment.  to be fair though, i did include health issues in my original comment... so the question becomes, is 13.5% out of 100% very small...? or perhaps it's just "small", or "kinda small", or maybe it's extremely huge?  who the fuck knows...?  hey OAA... any thoughts on this...?
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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2014, 05:38:40 PM »
^^^You quoted my post in an effort make your point, but my remark wasn't about the smite you're still complaining about. You neglected to address my post at all, even though you quoted it in it's entirety.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #136 on: October 13, 2014, 05:42:29 PM »
<snip>

My thoughts:
Those statistics only apply to abortions that were carried out. They don't talk about abortions that were needed/wanted, but denied/impossible to acquire. With the current legislation and mindset, abortions are becoming increasingly difficult for women to procure, no matter the reason.
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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #137 on: October 15, 2014, 12:57:02 AM »

You're asking if having sex (naughty, naughty women!), becoming pregnant (if they didn't want to get pregnant, their bodies would have taken care of it!), having a child (see previous), and dumping them at an adoption agency (to be raised by the hardworking taxpayers of the world) will make someone a social pariah? Nah... I'm sure it won't.

I seem to recall reading that the Spartans allowed infanticide up to a year after birth, if the baby was physically deformed. They would generally leave the baby on the rocks by the shore where it would get swept out to sea. I have to wonder if there were societal pressures in this regard. How deformed would it have to be? Would mothers (and/or fathers) be shamed by leaving a specimen that was simply not perfect?

What does it take to become a social pariah? Today, there is no scarlet A, but there are "forced birthers" (I like that term) that crowd a clinic and verbally harass even those who are only there for a pap smear.[1]

I also seem to recall that someone mentioned the idea (earlier in this thread) that there could be a good argument for eliminating certain teenagers, since their brains are not fully formed. I am prepared to make this argument, but I have my doubts that anyone would take it seriously.[2] I went through adolescence some years ago, and there may have been people that wanted to kill me, but I survived and apparently, most of you did too. But so how far could we take it? Is anyone up for a discussion of the pros/cons of whether to allow termination of life after birth and where to draw the lines regarding age/risk/species? When does it become socially acceptable to flush the baby alligator that has gotten too big?

If religion were eliminated from the face of the earth, could science and public policy justify infanticide for some time period after birth? Medical ethicists could have a field day...

I think this is why the U.S. Supreme Court came up with the trimester idea. As I understand the Roe v. Wade decision, in the first trimester, all abortions are the choice of the mother. In the last trimester, all abortions are forbidden (except possibly when there are extenuating circumstances), and the middle trimester is reserved to the states to regulate.

Unfortunately, religious fundamentalists are not satisfied with this middle ground. They want to eliminate all abortions, for any reason. (Which is why I like the term "forced birther". Some people have no compassion for the teenager who made a choice that was incomprehensible to them, so they discount its value. Yo, forced birthers, ever done anything you regretted later?)

Of course, not everyone is religious fundamentalist. There are those musteline Xians who want to interpret. Let's call the ones who will allow for abortion in cases of rape/incest/health in the first or second trimester "pro-life". They only force birth when they judge the woman to be unchaste.

I want to suggest that "pro-choice" believers have an opportunity to weigh in on the idea that the choice could be made after she sees what comes out.

When is it OK to eliminate a downs child? From all I have seen, the people born with downs syndrome are the most beautiful perfect people on the planet, with no cynicism or judgmentalness. Would that everybody were like them. I think it is a bummer that they live shorter lives than the rest of us.

But not all of us are Sarah Palin. 

What I mean is that not everybody has the capability to raise a child with special needs.[3] Half the people in the United States today have an IQ of 100 or below.[4]

And not all kids get parents. I would have a lot more sympathy for the so-called "pro-life" movement if there were not children abandoned to orphanages and foster homes. Forcing birth seems to me to be a cardinal sin (One Above All: could you include that in your liturgy?) against nature if nothing else because not all persons are going to survive, and the best human born to unavailable parents is not going to improve the human race (forgive me as I get Darwinistic) as much as a supposedly lesser human born to parents that care about his/her survival (whether the parents be homosexual, Muslim, or (god forbid) atheist).

So can we debate whether there is a point at which infanticide makes sense? 
 1. As far as you know. I have no direct evidence either way, and doubt that any exists, but I cannot imagine an abortion clinic protest that differentiated between clients of Planned Parenthood who were there for a medical checkup from those that wanted to discuss/plan/have an abortion
 2. But see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_juvenile_offenders_executed_in_the_United_States_since_1976
 3. Whether the child have downs, autism, cystic fibrosis, etc.
 4. Some might argue that Americans are dumber than others around the world. But what does IQ really mean? http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=682488
"Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist."
Epicurus

Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #138 on: October 15, 2014, 02:16:57 AM »
One Above All: could you include that in your liturgy?

Dunno what you mean by this.

So can we debate whether there is a point at which infanticide makes sense? 

Killing someone never "makes sense". Best case-scenario, it's justified (someone's own life was in danger, killing one person saved more, and so on). That's my stance.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #139 on: October 27, 2014, 11:20:40 AM »
a couple of good arguments.

1. according to the bible, life does not begin at conception, but at breathing.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/19/1285933/-Bible-Life-Begins-at-Breath-Not-Conception

2. other biblical arguments for abortion
http://americablog.com/2014/10/god-pro-choice.html

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