Author Topic: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity  (Read 594 times)

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Offline Lectus

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Is simply horrible. Agree?

The Bible God wants humans to decide between having an eternity in heaven or hell, WITHOUT SEEING, with limited brain. That's very bad justice system.

That's like going up to a 5 years old kid and saying: I dare you decide between blessing and curse.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 07:09:01 AM »
Is simply horrible. Agree?

The Bible God wants humans to decide between having an eternity in heaven or hell, WITHOUT SEEING, with limited brain. That's very bad justice system.

That's like going up to a 5 years old kid and saying: I dare you decide between blessing and curse.

Another interesting point.  Not sure I fully understand it though. 

Slow but trainable,

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Offline Lectus

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 08:34:33 AM »
Another interesting point.  Not sure I fully understand it though.

Simply, humans can't decide about eternity in a life of maximum of 100 years.

Our limited brains can't grasp eternity. That's why it's unfair.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline penfold

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 08:49:58 AM »
Your life has a limit but knowledge has none. If you use what is limited to pursue what has no limit, you will be in danger. If you understand this and still strive for knowledge, you will be in danger for certain! If you do good, stay away from fame. If you do evil, stay away from punishments. Follow the middle; go by what is constant, and you can stay in one piece, keep yourself alive, look after your parents, and live out your years.

- Chuang Tzu, Ch 3 (trans. Watson)
"Goodness is about what you do. Not who you pray to." - Terry Pratchett

Offline Backspace

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 08:51:40 AM »
Faith brother.  It's all about the faith.[1]
 1. Belief that is not based on proof/Dictionary.com
There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
-- Bernie Katz

Offline Lectus

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 08:56:26 AM »
Faith brother.  It's all about the faith.[1]
 1. Belief that is not based on proof/Dictionary.com

Ok. But then God puts powerful spiritual creatures like Satan to tempt you all the time. Humans are only flesh creatures who can't see the spiritual enemies.

Then we have sex hormones tempting us to sin all the time too. And millions of other traps during life time.

A tiny mistake can send your soul to hell FOREVER. And without a chance of ever getting out of there. If you're born Chinese, sorry, God didn't intend you to meet Jesus.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline Backspace

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2014, 09:11:36 AM »
Ok. But then God puts powerful spiritual creatures like Satan to tempt you all the time. Humans are only flesh creatures who can't see the spiritual enemies.

Then we have sex hormones tempting us to sin all the time too. And millions of other traps during life time.

A tiny mistake can send your soul to hell FOREVER. And without a chance of ever getting out of there. If you're born Chinese, sorry, God didn't intend you to meet Jesus.

Welcome to the world of Christianity (and other such organized religions)
There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 09:50:29 AM »
You're not expecting the bible to be wrong and make sense too, are you, Lec?  ;)

If the content in the bible was both well-structured and universally pertinent, I might pay a little more attention to it. But it is haphazard, the way reality is haphazard, and it is a human invention  (a poor one, obviously) that believers have to make up even more stuff about just to pretend it makes sense. That we limited humans can find so many unanswered questions in the text points away from an eternal character with no limits being involved.

Living "forever" or however they worded it biblically basically means "follow this, and you ain't gonna die", and that's about the more detail that was necessary a few thousand years ago. There was no particular reason to go beyond the suggested reading, either by the authors or anyone else, because once your standards are so low that you'll accept the bible as a complete source for your religion, you've demonstrated that you don't really need any information anyway.

For each believer, especially within christianity, personally divining what the divine dude meant when he said this or that is way too common, because, though I don't know what god's middle name was, it certainly wasn't Clarity. If it was just us atheists asking questions, then I might be on shaky ground here. But with tens of thousands of christian denominations running around denying that there are tens of thousands of christian denominations, something besides comprehension is going on here. And not being clear on the ramifications of eternity is a relatively minor hole in the story.
What I lack in sophistication I make up for with other shortcomings.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2014, 10:37:52 AM »
Good point, PP. the way I see it, we are not even clear today just what counts as a sin and  what doesn't. Even 'sexual' activity is fraught with doubt. For example, slavery was approved of in the bible and practised in various countries until some good people put a stop to it. Now the churches are anti-slavery despite their bibles. Is the same going to happen with gay relationships, family planning, abortion? These may not be god's laws and they may be the idea of celibate men - who knows? This clarity is what we lack when it comes to sins.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2014, 12:07:20 PM »
Another interesting point.  Not sure I fully understand it though.

Simply, humans can't decide about eternity in a life of maximum of 100 years.

Our limited brains can't grasp eternity. That's why it's unfair.

I see your point, now.

We as humans do seem prone to try putting boundaries on infinity. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline johnrain

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 12:58:08 AM »
If God is Omiscient but All Loving, why would he create some people He knows won't love him; which means he created them just to send them to hell for all eternity.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 04:52:44 AM »
If God is Omiscient but All Loving, why would he create some people He knows won't love him; which means he created them just to send them to hell for all eternity.

How did you reach the conclusion God created some people He knows will not love Him?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline wheels5894

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2014, 05:17:33 AM »
If God is Omiscient but All Loving, why would he create some people He knows won't love him; which means he created them just to send them to hell for all eternity.

How did you reach the conclusion God created some people He knows will not love Him?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

An omniscient god , by definition, knows everything, He therefore knows, even before a person is conceived, whether that person is going to be in heaven or hell after they die. If such a god allows the conception of persons whom he knows are going to hell, that seems pretty mean to say the least.

Of course this can be extended. If god created everything, why dis he bother with extinct species like dinosaurs - creatures he knew would die out?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 05:23:02 AM »
If God is Omiscient but All Loving, why would he create some people He knows won't love him; which means he created them just to send them to hell for all eternity.

How did you reach the conclusion God created some people He knows will not love Him?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

An omniscient god , by definition, knows everything, He therefore knows, even before a person is conceived, whether that person is going to be in heaven or hell after they die. If such a god allows the conception of persons whom he knows are going to hell, that seems pretty mean to say the least.

Of course this can be extended. If god created everything, why dis he bother with extinct species like dinosaurs - creatures he knew would die out?

Egad! 

God is a Calvinist????????????

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2014, 05:41:53 AM »
An omniscient god , by definition, knows everything, He therefore knows, even before a person is conceived, whether that person is going to be in heaven or hell after they die. If such a god allows the conception of persons whom he knows are going to hell, that seems pretty mean to say the least.

Egad! 

God is a Calvinist????????????

That, or every action he takes, he takes in just the hope that it is for the best.  Without foreknowledge, he cannot say for sure if his plan will succeed, or is in fact the best plan for everyone.

Its far more reasonable to assert Yahweh can NOT see the future - it makes decisions like the Tree, or the fall of Lucifer, a lot more understandable.  But it does, of course, remove any suggestion that god knows best.  He could still be wrong.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: The idea that a limited human being can decide about eternity
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 05:46:47 AM »
An omniscient god , by definition, knows everything, He therefore knows, even before a person is conceived, whether that person is going to be in heaven or hell after they die. If such a god allows the conception of persons whom he knows are going to hell, that seems pretty mean to say the least.

Egad! 

God is a Calvinist????????????

That, or every action he takes, he takes in just the hope that it is for the best.  Without foreknowledge, he cannot say for sure if his plan will succeed, or is in fact the best plan for everyone.

Its far more reasonable to assert Yahweh can NOT see the future - it makes decisions like the Tree, or the fall of Lucifer, a lot more understandable.  But it does, of course, remove any suggestion that god knows best.  He could still be wrong.

Interesting point.  This reminds me of an old Gnostic teaching that the known universe was created by an inferior god.  Jesus provided a way to learn of the superior god and, thus, circumvent Yahweh.  Once you joined the Gnostic group one would be enlightened to this superior god.

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama