Author Topic: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?  (Read 328 times)

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Offline Grendel

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How does that have any relevance to religious/atheist terms and conversation? You want a pat on the back that "you don't know" whether the easter bunny exists? You're above the fray because "you don't know" and hold out that there is a possibility that leprechauns are riding in the teapot circling Mars? And you want a pat on the back for this admission?

I'll never understand "atheists" who jump up and down defending people's right to enter a theological conversation with the outright pap of "Oh I'm an agnostic". 

Is there a single atheist on this board who wouldn't go with the verifiable proof if it became available? Isn't that what makes us atheists? The whole facts and logic thing? So an agnostic says they're agnostic because they acknowledge that a higher power may be a possibility (or may not be). That's basically different from any other human on the planet how? How is that a characterization that says ANYTHING?
This 'free will' nonsense didn't seem to bother your god when it set up the sting operation in the Garden of Eden with two magic trees and a Talking Snake™

Offline Mooby

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2014, 08:32:41 PM »
Agnosticism does not mean tacitly acknowledging that one might be wrong.  Saying that one would reconsider their position if given incontrovertible evidence to the contrary is not agnosticism.  That's simply intellectual honesty.

Agnosticism is a belief about knowledge.  Or, more accurately, it is a category of beliefs about knowledge, as agnosticism comes in a few different flavors.  It's not even on the same axis as theism/atheism; it's on the gnosticism/agnosticism axis.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Nam

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2014, 08:54:39 PM »
OP,

Who'd you believe more: the one who says, "I don't know" who doesn't need or is relatively required to provide evidence or the one that says, "I do know" and only can provide evidence with an extreme bias or evidence that is never enough to the opposition?

 Frankly, I'm of the camp, "I don't care" yet lean toward atheism yet since "I don't care" evidence isn't ever necessary.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Grendel

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2014, 09:23:34 PM »
It's not even on the same axis as theism/atheism; it's on the gnosticism/agnosticism axis.

EXACTLY. Yet it is now used in general conversation (and here on this site where I expect better) to be smack dab on the axis of theism/atheism, as if it's somehow relevant or enlightening to anything.
This 'free will' nonsense didn't seem to bother your god when it set up the sting operation in the Garden of Eden with two magic trees and a Talking Snake™

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2014, 09:45:52 PM »
Think you could provide some evidence of that, Grendel?

Offline Grendel

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2014, 10:57:54 PM »
Think you could provide some evidence of that, Grendel?
evidence of what?
This 'free will' nonsense didn't seem to bother your god when it set up the sting operation in the Garden of Eden with two magic trees and a Talking Snake™

Offline One Above All

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 01:44:26 AM »
Think you could provide some evidence of that, Grendel?
evidence of what?

That atheists (or self-proclaimed "agnostics", whatever that means) use the term "agnostic" regarding belief, as if it were relevant.
Now, jaimehlers, I don't recall the exact thread, but I've seen atheists do this. In fact, I've had to "reeducate" some of them regarding what "agnostic" truly means. I believe I used the example of the car. Basically, if someone asks you what brand your car is, you don't tell them it's red or that it has an engine. You tell them the brand. So why would you tell someone that you're not sure if a god(s) exist(s) when they asked you if you believed in it/them?
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 03:05:00 AM »
Agnosticism is being used as a special case with regards to atheism in order to correct the (deliberate) misrepresentation of atheism by theists in order to gain a level playing field, that most really know to be false.. You know the stuff - the "your disbelief is a belief" malarckey, which conveniently only seems to be applicable to atheism and no other disbeliefs. That's how this agnostic label really took off the ground, when, as Grendel has said, it isn't needed.

On the other foot, while the use of the label seems to be an obvious default for all, it's still correct to use it if you are agnostic. It's not like it's being used incorrectly (by those who know what it means in each given context). To those of us who do see it as obvious, we just reply, "Well, duh!", but then others, such as theists, just don't get the difference (sometimes deliberately) between not believing in the existence of gods and believing that no gods exist.

I suppose, a bit like claiming your an atheist, the idea of having to say your an agnostic shouldn't be required. To me, the atheist "fight" is there to negate its own purpose, so perhaps that can be extended to agnosticism.... with regards to atheism at least.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Mooby

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 07:37:25 AM »
EXACTLY. Yet it is now used in general conversation (and here on this site where I expect better) to be smack dab on the axis of theism/atheism, as if it's somehow relevant or enlightening to anything.
One's place on the knowledge scale can have a large impact on how the religious scale is expressed.  For instance, my agnosticism shapes my theism quite a bit, and it is often relevant in discussions (because discussions often get into knowledge claims.)
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: "You don't know," Mr. Agnostic? What, do you want a cookie?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 07:51:44 AM »
"I don't know" about any god like thing
"I know it is not" about all proposed deities other than the Deistic one.

It is not difficult to figure out, and a silly point to split hairs over, IMNSHO.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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