Author Topic: Vaccines and austism  (Read 1007 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2014, 08:46:37 PM »
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/some-nyc-schools-show-dismal-vaccination-rates.html

Quote
School immunization data for the 2012-13 school year obtained by Daily Intelligencer from the New York State Department of Health shows that some 245 New York City private schools fell short of the 95 percent vaccination rate which experts say prevents measles from spreading — an effect known as "herd immunity." Of those schools, 125 had rates below 90 percent, and 37 fell below 70 percent. The nine private schools with the lowest rates — between 41.5 percent and 18.4 percent — were so underimmunized that if any one of them somehow seceded and became a Sealand-style micro-nation, it would literally have had the worst measles vaccination rate in the world, according to WHO numbers.


And NY is the most stringent state in terms of vaccination immunity. 

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2014, 03:13:43 AM »
I take it USA schools aren't the same as Portuguese ones, in the sense that some vaccinations are obligatory if you want to go to school.
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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2014, 12:31:28 PM »
vaccines used to be required in the US. I don't know what the hell has happened. :(
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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2014, 12:37:19 PM »
vaccines used to be required in the US. I don't know what the hell has happened. :(

Republicans.

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Online One Above All

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2014, 12:58:04 PM »
Republicans.

Well, that explains several things wrong with the USA. Weird, huh?

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2014, 06:21:03 PM »
vaccines used to be required in the US. I don't know what the hell has happened. :(

This ^

In the good ole days, if you showed up for school without papers proving you had the required immunizations, you were sent home and told you couldn't enter the school building until you go the shots.    Period.

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Offline Mooby

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2014, 04:50:54 PM »
vaccines used to be required in the US. I don't know what the hell has happened. :(
They still are, at least at all the public schools around here.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2014, 08:47:18 PM »
Apparently several states have relaxed the requirements and charter schools - being private - threw out the rules altogether.  Plus all the "hoem skulers" have no requirements on them whatsoever. 

So the are the modern plague rats.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2014, 09:09:51 PM »
It's really very very simple. All the pharmaceutical companies have to do is discontinue all use of Thimerosal in their vaccines and publicly announce that they have done so and voila! No more reason for people to fear vaccines. But that will never happen because of money.

Quote
...experts argue that banning thimerosal could increase the cost of vaccines for developing nations by anywhere from two to five times and make transporting and storing vaccines that much more difficult as well.  The bottom line: Kids could die.

http://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/blogs/un-considers-banning-thimerosal-from-vaccines

I find it very odd that Mercury can be argued to save lives in this situation but heaven forbid a pregnant woman eat fish.

Quote
Mercury is a contaminant found in fish that can affect brain development and the nervous system. The FDA has released guidelines for children, women who are pregnant and women who are trying to become pregnant. These guidelines state that no more than 12 oz of low mercury fish should be consumed weekly. "Highest" mercury fish should be avoided and "high" mercury fish should be kept to only three 6-oz servings per month.

http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/fishmercury.htm

Hey...but it's necessary to inject it into kids after they are born because that save big pharma money.

It's a conundrum.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 09:12:24 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2014, 09:24:30 PM »
It's really very very simple... But that will never happen because of money.

1. Why abandon a useful chemical to placate weirdos when the chemical is not actually a problem?

2. Your own link indicated it was not only about money, let alone pharma profits, but also about storage and shelf life:

Quote
...experts argue that banning thimerosal could increase the cost of vaccines for developing nations by anywhere from two to five times and make transporting and storing vaccines that much more difficult as well.  The bottom line: Kids could die.


I find it very odd that Mercury can be argued to save lives in this situation but heaven forbid a pregnant woman eat fish.

Because mercury is not the same as thimerosal, just as sodium is not the same as salt.  Pure sodium burns explosively in the atmosphere or in water.  Elements behave differently when combined in molecules.  Just because it has mercury in it does not mean it will be metabolized the same way.


Hey...but it's necessary to inject it into kids after they are born because that save big pharma money.

You are mistaken, Jay.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2014, 09:36:44 PM »
It's really very very simple. All the pharmaceutical companies have to do is discontinue all use of Thimerosal in their vaccines and publicly announce that they have done so and voila! No more reason for people to fear vaccines. But that will never happen because of money.

Quote
...experts argue that banning thimerosal could increase the cost of vaccines for developing nations by anywhere from two to five times and make transporting and storing vaccines that much more difficult as well.  The bottom line: Kids could die.

http://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/blogs/un-considers-banning-thimerosal-from-vaccines

I find it very odd that Mercury can be argued to save lives in this situation but heaven forbid a pregnant woman eat fish.

Quote
Mercury is a contaminant found in fish that can affect brain development and the nervous system. The FDA has released guidelines for children, women who are pregnant and women who are trying to become pregnant. These guidelines state that no more than 12 oz of low mercury fish should be consumed weekly. "Highest" mercury fish should be avoided and "high" mercury fish should be kept to only three 6-oz servings per month.

http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/fishmercury.htm

Hey...but it's necessary to inject it into kids after they are born because that save big pharma money.

It's a conundrum.

A. they took the Thimerosal out when this big controversy started. It caused the price of vaccines to be higher. Because it couldn't be distributed the same way. The Thimerosal was used to keep the vaccine from being contaminated as needles were inserted through rubber stoppers and the dose needed was drawn out. As I understand it, they now have to ship the stuff in individual doses to prevent contamination.

And it isn't regular mercury. It is a bit different. Still potent and stuff in larger amounts, and still used in a few select vaccines, it isn't an issue for most shots given to children any more. But fear being fear, people are still afraid of it because its a big word that they, if they study real hard, can learn to pronounce.

When I was a kid, my parents put Merthiolate on my cuts and scrapes all the time. Same thing. Bigger amounts. I lived. And it is absorbed through the skin readily, so being applied externally isn't the reason I lived. I lived because the vaccine alarmist weren't around to scare my parents.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2014, 10:29:09 PM »
A. they took the Thimerosal out when this big controversy started.

Then why does the controversy still continue? What's supposedly causing the autism now?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2014, 11:28:10 PM »
A. they took the Thimerosal out when this big controversy started.

Then why does the controversy still continue? What's supposedly causing the autism now?

I wish I could answer that, but the opponents aren't using actual information, nor rational thought processes. Mass hysteria is not a good place to go looking for logical reasons.

People need to feel like they are in control of at least a few things in their lives, and I guess imagining that your kid won't become autistic because you've avoided vaccines is one way to pretend that you're doing good as a parent.

The irony is that it may well be something in the environment that is effecting unborns in the 2nd trimester is causing the problem (I read that somewhere recently). Autism is being diagnosed at rates far, far higher than ten or twenty or thirty years ago, so something has changed. But since very few are interested in what the actual problem is, research is going slow.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2014, 09:20:10 AM »
It's really very very simple. All the pharmaceutical companies have to do is discontinue all use of Thimerosal in their vaccines and publicly announce that they have done so and voila! No more reason for people to fear vaccines. But that will never happen because of money.
They did that in the US and most of Europe 15 years ago.  The article you linked to talked about developing nations, whose vaccines still have thiomersal in them.  Thiomersal is also still used in some versions of the flu shot.

I find it very odd that Mercury can be argued to save lives in this situation but heaven forbid a pregnant woman eat fish.
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Chemical bonding matters in chemistry.  Fish can concentrate mercury into methylmercury, which is very toxic to humans.  The preservative used in vaccines is thiomersal, which has never been shown to be toxic to humans for the doses used in vaccines.  Those are two very different things.

Then why does the controversy still continue? What's supposedly causing the autism now?
Thiomersal.  Or aluminum.  Or "too many vaccines."
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2014, 12:21:04 PM »
You are mistaken, Jay.

Yep. I found an entry on the CDC website explaining the difference between Methylmercury and Ethylmercury. Seems I have been using an argument from ignorance. I also hadn't realized that the U.S. and Europe had discontinued the use of Thimerasol. However, I was correct in that it's use was to extend shelf life and make it easier to store making it less expensive to manufacture...I just let my distrust of large corporations who cut corners at the expense of either the environment or our own personal safety dictate my views on this subject.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2014, 12:28:19 PM »

Thiomersal.  Or aluminum.  Or "too many vaccines."

There are no other theories about what might be causing the increase in autism or what causes autism?
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2014, 01:19:39 PM »
Not that I'm aware.  There are probs a couple other wild theories out there but you'll have to ask an anti-vaccer for them.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2014, 03:31:33 PM »

Thiomersal.  Or aluminum.  Or "too many vaccines."

There are no other theories about what might be causing the increase in autism or what causes autism?
Here's a list of the usual suspects:

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Autistic-spectrum-disorder/Pages/Causes.aspx

I missed where there was an increase. Is there any indication that it is an increase or simply greater number of diagnoses? i.e. borderline OK is now borderline autism.

This seems to indicate that there is no increase in the UK: http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/10/e003219.short
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 03:39:23 PM by Graybeard »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2014, 09:00:22 AM »
Yep. I found an entry on the CDC website...

good for you to for not being defensive and for pursuing answers further.

However, I was correct in that it's use was to extend shelf life and make it easier to store making it less expensive to manufacture...I just let my distrust of large corporations who cut corners at the expense of either the environment or our own personal safety dictate my views on this subject.

Sure.  I get that.  I too am highly distrustful (paranoid?) of large corporations and their seemingly complete lack of care or regard for humans.  But sometimes - admittedly not very often - what is good for a corporation is also good for consumers.  I think this is one case where it seems to be so.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:01:30 PM by screwtape »
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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2014, 11:09:59 AM »
There are no other theories about what might be causing the increase in autism or what causes autism?

Has anyone been able to rule out a simple increase in rate of diagnosis?  I'm pretty sure that the recorded incidence of Schizophrenia increased as we better learned how to diagnose it, too.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2014, 04:34:31 PM »
There are no other theories about what might be causing the increase in autism or what causes autism?

Has anyone been able to rule out a simple increase in rate of diagnosis?  I'm pretty sure that the recorded incidence of Schizophrenia increased as we better learned how to diagnose it, too.

I'd almost wager a bet that that has a lot to do with it. Are child psychologists experiencing the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon?

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Offline Mooby

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2014, 04:51:25 PM »
Has anyone been able to rule out a simple increase in rate of diagnosis?  I'm pretty sure that the recorded incidence of Schizophrenia increased as we better learned how to diagnose it, too.
Since the 1980s or so there has been better awareness, earlier screenings, and widening of the diagnostic criteria to make it easier to diagnose.  Some reports say there is still an increase even with all these factors, but that hasn't really been confirmed so at best it's murky.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2014, 07:29:30 AM »
Prose with links supporting vaccination.
http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/25/parents-you-are-being-lied-to/

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Dear parents,

You are being lied to. The people who claim to be acting in the best interests of your children are putting their health and even lives at risk.

...(continues)
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2014, 07:33:11 AM »
Dr Bob Sears, promoter of BS, plague spreader, charlatan, idiot.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2014/03/23/worried-about-measles-dont-call-dr-bob-sears/

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Dr. Bob Sears once wrote a non-evidence-based book about vaccines, urging parents to adopt “Dr. Bob’s Alternative Vaccine Schedule (TM?)” but at the least, to please purchase his book. Thousands of people, presumably terrified at the prospect of protecting their children against debilitating or fatal infectious disease on an evidence-based schedule, purchased the book and, one infers, followed its advice for “alternative” or “selective” schedules.

It’s a gambit that’s been called “cashing in on fear,” and it’s been hugely successful for “Dr. Bob.” Fear sells for Sears. Fear does not care about an evidence base.

...(continues)
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2014, 11:01:34 AM »
another reason why anti-vaxers are loathsome people who are a threat to civilization
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/07/vitamin-k-injection-infants-safety

Quote
In May, the Tennessean reported on a truly shocking medical problem. Seven infants, aged between seven and 20 weeks old, had arrived at Vanderbilt University's Monroe Carell Jr. Children's Hospital over the past eight months with a condition called "vitamin K deficiency bleeding," or VKDB. This rare disorder occurs because human infants do not have enough vitamin K, a blood coagulant, in their systems. Infants who develop VKDB can bleed in various parts of their bodies, including bleeding into the brain. This can cause brain damage or even death.

...
"There's a lot of overlap with that anti-vaccine mentality," says Jones. Indeed, reporting on the Vanderbilt VKDB cases, the Tennessean explained that "Vanderbilt doctors believe incidences are on the rise because of the anti-vaccine movement."
...
continues

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2014, 11:09:34 AM »
another reason why anti-vaxers are loathsome people who are a threat to civilization
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/07/vitamin-k-injection-infants-safety
<snip>

...Those people are retarded, right? They suffer from a mental disability of some sort. No way anyone is that dumb without some kind of nervous system impairment. A vitamin is harmful? Better not take vitamin C then; scurvy is good for you!
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2014, 12:04:59 PM »
They don't see it as a vitamin - vitamins are things you eat, not things you're injected with.  If it's an injection, it must be a vaccine of some kind, and therefore potentially dangerous unless proven otherwise.