Author Topic: Vaccines and austism  (Read 981 times)

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Offline Chronos

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Vaccines and austism
« on: March 04, 2014, 10:00:20 PM »

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline wright

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2014, 10:22:28 PM »
A good presentation of the facts. Sadly it won't convince everyone, but it's still worth doing.

The anti-vaccine crowd astounds, infuriates and wearies me. One of the most incredible advances to improve the human condition worldwide in the last 200 years, and some people are ignorant enough to reject it. Even see it as a bad thing.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2014, 07:02:51 AM »
Dumb and getting dumber:

Effective Messages in Vaccine Promotion: A Randomized Trial

Quote
RESULTS: None of the interventions increased parental intent to vaccinate a future child. Refuting claims of an MMR/autism link successfully reduced misperceptions that vaccines cause autism but nonetheless decreased intent to vaccinate among parents who had the least favorable vaccine attitudes. In addition, images of sick children increased expressed belief in a vaccine/autism link and a dramatic narrative about an infant in danger increased self-reported belief in serious vaccine side effects.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 04:00:43 PM »
There are none as blind as them who will not see.

Autism: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Excessive-Numbers-of-Neurons-Found-in-Autistic-Brain-234170.shtml

and there is something that causes this. It is unlikely to be post-natal.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 05:07:29 PM »
  My favorite reply from non-vaccinaters is "My children aren't vaccinated and they haven't gotten sick". Yeah, maybe that's because all the other children are vaccinated.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 05:14:56 PM »
  My favorite reply from non-vaccinaters is "My children aren't vaccinated and they haven't gotten sick". Yeah, maybe that's because all the other children are vaccinated.

I'm not vaccinated against the flu[1], and I've never gotten sick from it, even though others did. I just kick ass. ;D
 1. Apparently, the first time I was, I got very sick due to an allergic reaction to one of the components of the vaccine.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 05:25:58 PM »
I'll never understand this. The one "study" the showed a link was full of crap, and the doctor that published is now barred from practicing medicine because it was so bad.

The diseases we get inoculated against used to kill people. And still do, when folks aren't inoculated. And the little kids getting sick aren't allowed to choose between being juts fine and being sick enough to possibly die. The parents involved should force-fed smallpox toxins.

Toss in, just for the heck of it, the babies too young to inoculate (and hence vulnerable to outbreaks of any given disease) and the people who simply cannot get inoculations for health reasons (I forget what those reasons are, but they are legitimate) and you end up with innocents on all fronts being affected. And the guilty parties (parents) area too busy patting each other on their backs for being so frickin' brilliant to take the time to see the error of their ways.

The problem is now considered a legitimate health problem. But if the solution is to give errant parents brain serums via vaccination, that won't work. In that case, hopefully a hammer to the head will do the trick.

And One, research has shown that people exposed to the flu get affected in different ways. And some never show any symptoms. However, they can still infect others around them. I have never knowingly had the flu either, but if this study is correct, I have had it, I just didn't know it. Which is wonderful, except I may have infected others unknowingly.  For that reason, everyone should get flu shots.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online One Above All

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2014, 05:29:50 PM »
And One, research has shown that people exposed to the flu get affected in different ways. And some never show any symptoms. However, they can still infect others around them. I have never knowingly had the flu either, but if this study is correct, I have had it, I just didn't know it. Which is wonderful, except I may have infected others unknowingly.  For that reason, everyone should get flu shots.

As I explained, I had an adverse reaction (pretty severe one too, if my mom is to be trusted) to the vaccine. However, I am considering giving the vaccine another try (seeing as how I am an adult and can choose for myself). I'd rather not risk getting sick from something if I can avoid it... most of the time.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 05:30:39 PM »
I'm allergic to some vaccinations. Wo me.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Traveler

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 09:30:23 PM »
One, the flu vaccine is different each year, inoculating only for specific flu strains. When I was undergoing chemo, It was suggested that I get the flu and pneumonia shots, but they said I absolutely HAD to get the killed virus rather than the live vaccine. Some vaccines have egg in them, which some people are allergic to. Basically, one can't assume that this years vaccine is the same as last. I'd talk to your doctor if you're interested. I've only had severe flu once, and it is COMPLETELY different from the mild stuff the average person calls a flu. I pretty much wanted to die.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 08:08:13 AM »
I'm not vaccinated against the flu[1], and I've never gotten sick from it, even though others did. I just kick ass. ;D
 1. Apparently, the first time I was, I got very sick due to an allergic reaction to one of the components of the vaccine.

In the late 1970s I was vaccinated for the flu 3 years in a row and I got the flu 3 years in a row. Once I stopped getting the flu vaccine, I stopped getting the flu. Since 1980 I have only had the flu once -- circa 2003 -- and I had it bad. So far, my average is much better without the vaccine.

Perhaps flu vaccines have improved since the 1970s. I'm very reluctant to give them a personal test.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Online One Above All

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2014, 08:12:30 AM »
One, the flu vaccine is different each year, inoculating only for specific flu strains.

I am well aware of how vaccines work. I actually wrote an essay about vaccines (or, more precisely, vaccination) for one of my classes just last week.

When I was undergoing chemo, It was suggested that I get the flu and pneumonia shots, but they said I absolutely HAD to get the killed virus rather than the live vaccine.
<snip>
I've only had severe flu once, and it is COMPLETELY different from the mild stuff the average person calls a flu. I pretty much wanted to die.

Which is exactly why I want to give it another try. I'd rather not risk a premature death.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2014, 04:32:00 PM »
In the late 1970s I was vaccinated for the flu 3 years in a row and I got the flu 3 years in a row. Once I stopped getting the flu vaccine, I stopped getting the flu.
So you're saying that it took 3 years to kick in?
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2014, 07:20:42 AM »
In the late 1970s I was vaccinated for the flu 3 years in a row and I got the flu 3 years in a row. Once I stopped getting the flu vaccine, I stopped getting the flu.
So you're saying that it took 3 years to kick in?

Within 2-3 weeks after each flu vaccine, I got the flu.
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Online Fiji

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2014, 01:51:16 PM »
On average, there are some 4 or 5 new flu's every year. It's logistically impossible to put all of the into vaccines. Flu strains originate where poultry, pigs and humans live in close proximity. East Asia is such a place. So scientists make an educated guess as to which flu's will make it 'over here'. Now, as I am Belgian, my 'over here' is different form (for instance) magicmiles' or Chronos'. Besides the three flu's that did go into the vaccine Chronos got there were also one or two flu's floating around that Chronos had no defence against. This could explain getting sick shortly after getting vaccinated. Pure dumb bad luck.
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Offline wright

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2014, 02:17:13 PM »
Sorry you've had such bad luck with flu vaccines, Chronos. My experience is the opposite: when I started living on my own and didn't get flu shots (being a horrible procrastinator), I got the bug annually. When I finally found the motivation to get vaccinated, I stopped getting horribly sick every Fall / Winter.

I occasionally get colds, but haven't had anything more serious for the last five years. Some of that is probably luck, as Fiji points out, but I see vaccination as a way of tipping the odds in my favor.

It's infuriating to think of the ancestors who buried child after child, baby after baby, so that their more fortunate descendants would have the privilege of denying modern medicine. It really, really gets to me sometimes.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 02:25:57 PM by wright »
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2014, 07:22:34 AM »
Within 2-3 weeks after each flu vaccine, I got the flu.
Coincidence. The flu vaccine can't give you the flu. Also, the vaccine does not protect from colds or stomach flus, which many people mistake for the flu.

Part of the problem with the flu vaccine is nowhere near enough people get vaccinated to establish herd immunity, so we're only getting a partial benefit from it. I think the issue lies in the fact that getting everyone to do something yearly is harder than getting them to do it once, and the public misconception that the flu is not a serious illness.
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Online Fiji

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2014, 12:22:06 PM »
aye, the stuff usually referred to as stomach flu is almost always bacterial while THE flu is viral. The two are entirely unrelated. In fact, you'd be less wrong calling an elephant 'jellyfish'.
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Online albeto

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2014, 03:56:29 PM »
I'll never understand this. The one "study" the showed a link was full of crap, and the doctor that published is now barred from practicing medicine because it was so bad.

I do. Too well. This is really hot in the homeschool world, mostly because of the fundy woo-lovers who have been taught to be skeptical of scientific claims and rely on personal experiences as the most accurate reflection of explaining reality. Add to that the "trust" factor of other moms who "get it," who refuse to be treated like ignoramouses by doctors (a real problem, especially for mothers with kids who aren't obviously challenged, but don't quite fit in as expected), who want to feel like their intellectual strengths are useful beyond scheduling playdates and finding the best value for feeding a family of seven. There's a strong little community within the homeschool community that eschews conventional information because it doesn't make sense and doesn't conform to expectations, personal experience, or anecdotal stories. Evidence from a peer review journal will never convince them certain events were coincidental and not causal.

It's not just homeschoolers, btw, but ignorance of what the scientific method really is, what it does, and the value of rational, evidence-based critical thinking. US citizens are paying for the privilege of surrounding the younger generation in a bubble of ignorance in spite of evidence. Taxpayers in 14 states will bankroll nearly $1 billion this year in tuition for private schools, including hundreds of religious schools that teach Earth is less than 10,000 years old, Adam and Eve strolled the garden with dinosaurs, and much of modern biology, geology and cosmology is a web of lies.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 07:06:02 PM »
I am not vaccinated for the flu, and i only get sick about once a year.

I guess Aussies have worse things going around to get sick with?
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Offline Nam

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2014, 10:18:22 PM »
I am not vaccinated for the flu, and i only get sick about once a year.

I guess Aussies have worse things going around to get sick with?

I know--you're Australian, that's awful enough but at least you're not a kiwi, eh?

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2014, 11:11:20 PM »
I have never personally experienced any negative effects from getting a flu shot. I did get caught up in the whole thimerosal craze that swept the nation and become very concerned about my 18 month old daughter who received a flu shot. I thought that was way too young and I also asked the nurse if the shot contained thimerosal...she gave me a real nasty look then told me no...turns out thimerosal had been banned in TN as a preservative in flu vaccines. However, that didn't stop me from getting paranoid when my daughter stopped laughing and refused to look me in the eyes.

6 years later... she has a keen sense of humor[1]I am convinced that she is probably the smartest one in the family and we have regular staring contests.

But still, injecting mercury into the body can't be a good thing.
 1. albeit somewhat mischievous
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 11:13:01 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2014, 03:24:31 AM »
I know--you're Australian, that's awful enough but at least you're not a kiwi, eh?

;)

-Nam

**** off, were full ;D.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2014, 03:28:18 AM »
There's a strong little community within the homeschool community that eschews conventional information because it doesn't make sense and doesn't conform to expectations, personal experience, or anecdotal stories. Evidence from a peer review journal will never convince them certain events were coincidental and not causal. It's not just homeschoolers, btw, but ignorance of what the scientific method really is, what it does, and the value of rational, evidence-based critical thinking.

While I agree with the general point, I can't help having a certain degree of sympathy.

In a blast from the past, here is what I said in my very first post on the original WWGHA forum, all the way back in December 2006.....(it was actually in response to a point someone had made along the lines of "I know Christianity is bunk, but I sometimes still worry about hell")

- - - - -

In the UK, we have a vaccine called the MMR, which has been "linked" with giving children autism.  One doctor looked at 12 children whose parents had basically asked him "prove a link".  He also had been working on a new vaccine that would have made him a fortune had the MMR been discredited.  Most stories were along the lines of "my baby was fine - but then 8 months (or 5 months, or 12 months) after getting his MMR he became autistic".  The tabloid press worked the story up.  Vaccination rates dropped to levels where they might be a measles epidemic.  However, if you actually LOOKED, there was no credible evidence of any link whatsoever - just interested parties, hysteria, and fear.

And then it came time to have my little girl vaccinated.  She means the absolute world to me.  My brain was 100% certain it was safe to give her the MMR.

But I was still afraid.  As I said to the doctor - "my head is convinced, my gut is not".  Despite being as sure as sure could be, and backed up with the evidence, I was still afraid.  The months of screaming in the press, and the thought that "what if I hurt my little girl?", it all made me fear.  Even the solid fact that if I did NOT vaccinate her she would have a definite (though small) chance of death, sterility, or blindness if she caught measles did not help.  The baseless superstition had gotten into me and it hurt.

That's what it feels like to be raised Christian (however woolly) and then try to de-faith yourself.  All the logic in the world can't silence that little voice screaming "BUT WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG?!?".

So I wish you all the best, and promise you that the voices slowly fade.

...and I gave my daughter the vaccine.  And she's fine.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2014, 05:36:25 PM »
aye, the stuff usually referred to as stomach flu is almost always bacterial while THE flu is viral. The two are entirely unrelated. In fact, you'd be less wrong calling an elephant 'jellyfish'.
Actually, the majority of stomach flu cases are caused by viruses.  Just not the flu virus.

I am not vaccinated for the flu, and i only get sick about once a year.
It's not so much about whether you personally get the flu as it is about getting the flu out of circulation.
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Offline wright

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2014, 07:20:37 PM »

In the UK, we have a vaccine called the MMR, which has been "linked" with giving children autism.  One doctor looked at 12 children whose parents had basically asked him "prove a link".  He also had been working on a new vaccine that would have made him a fortune had the MMR been discredited.  Most stories were along the lines of "my baby was fine - but then 8 months (or 5 months, or 12 months) after getting his MMR he became autistic".  The tabloid press worked the story up.  Vaccination rates dropped to levels where they might be a measles epidemic.  However, if you actually LOOKED, there was no credible evidence of any link whatsoever - just interested parties, hysteria, and fear.

Andrew Wakefield is a sad, evil person. It's a shame he's largely escaped the consequences of doing so much harm. For completeness' sake, here's a link:http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-hero-andrew-wakefield-scientific-fraud/


Quote
And then it came time to have my little girl vaccinated.  She means the absolute world to me.  My brain was 100% certain it was safe to give her the MMR.

But I was still afraid.  As I said to the doctor - "my head is convinced, my gut is not".  Despite being as sure as sure could be, and backed up with the evidence, I was still afraid.  The months of screaming in the press, and the thought that "what if I hurt my little girl?", it all made me fear.  Even the solid fact that if I did NOT vaccinate her she would have a definite (though small) chance of death, sterility, or blindness if she caught measles did not help.  The baseless superstition had gotten into me and it hurt.

That's what it feels like to be raised Christian (however woolly) and then try to de-faith yourself.  All the logic in the world can't silence that little voice screaming "BUT WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG?!?".

So I wish you all the best, and promise you that the voices slowly fade.

...and I gave my daughter the vaccine.  And she's fine.

[slow clap]
You were a good parent and did the best you could for your child, letting reason guide you instead of fear. Well done.

And as an ex-Christian, I too sometimes hear that little voice. But then, I've been hearing voices in my head for decades and the Christian one is far from the loudest  :P.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2014, 04:13:45 AM »
New research, presented online as of yesterday, shows new evidence of autism beginning in the womb:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1307491?query=featured_home
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2014, 03:44:52 PM »
That's not too surprising, autism never really seemed to me like something that was triggered by events during infancy.  Though that would explain why autism doesn't seem to have a genetic component.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Vaccines and austism
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2014, 10:09:35 PM »
That's not too surprising, autism never really seemed to me like something that was triggered by events during infancy.  Though that would explain why autism doesn't seem to have a genetic component.

Yeah, same here.
It would need to be some major shit to mess up someones mind like that.
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