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Offline Nam

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #377 on: March 22, 2014, 04:27:42 PM »
Jesuis,

 This is your problem:

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They have not imagined it or created out of thin air as atheists claim they have. They say so in their books today.

What theists claim in their books do not make it automatically factual/truthful. You make it seem as if they claim it that's the conclusion. That is not the conclusion.

Theists claiming to know their God doesn't mean their god is therefore real. Atheists claiming that their god isn't real based on that is also not evidence that it isn't real. One comes to the conclusion by studying the facts submitted by the theist--not just claiming they know god because they wrote a book and the book says so; or stating the book is wrong because "they" say so.

So, you can't say: theists know god, instead you can state: theists claim they know god. Big difference and one you seem to not be able to grasp.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #378 on: March 22, 2014, 07:06:51 PM »
I'm glad you have a better understanding, but science isn't about semantics.  More specifically, it's intentionally precise - you don't want people to be confused as to what you mean.  That's a big part of the reason why your attempts to define theist and atheist differently than common parlance keep failing in such a big way.  You mean them one way, but the people you're talking to understand them another way.  More to the point, you come across like a religious devotee, which makes your attempts to describe your beliefs as if they're scientific fall totally flat.

Ok I understand - And I am trying to keep it very simple and very narrow. The word Theist the word life and the word consciousness the word truth and the word love and what it means to the self conscious - us.

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Very simply, if you want to promote what you believe as if it's scientific, you need to show scientific evidence to support it.  Diaries and the like don't really count - they're useful, but you can't verify that what's written in the diary actually took place, nor can you show that the things that they write about have an independent existence.
It is a self aware process. Consciousness is in the individual. How do you know whether you are being good to someone or bad to them? It is not the document it is in the observation. Writing it down makes you document it. That is your observation resulting in "Father forgive me for I have sinned". It is your observation, it your determination to do better to become more aware and stop sinning. However that is if you are understanding the process of self realisation. 

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In scientific methodology, stuff gets checked repeatedly.  Basically, one person does an experiment, then other people do the same experiment to see if they get the same results, and so on and so forth.  That's why science puts so much stock into reproducible experiments; if you can't reproduce what someone else does, how can you possibly tell whether their results are valid?  You would just have to take their word for it (which is essentially what you're pushing), which collapses the whole framework that science is built on.
That is also what theists say - people have their conscious awareness - they should be aware of the negative influences being direct at them or from in their mind and not engage its illusions. Far too many want to judge the others in that experiment but not themselves. They should not kill, lie cheat, covet etc -- they should all see why their minds are doing these things and observe it and prevent the hurt that it will inflict on another - they should use their intellect for a higher purpose as they observes what is causing and promoting suffering in action and reaction. This repetitive problem creates more and disharmony in the environment and every individual should be aware what God and the theists are saying -- "be aware" of your self - you will reap what you sow - it is the law of the eternal consciousness!! There is someone going on in the human mind bringing suffering and chaos to all life.

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Diaries are useful in a subjective sense, but you can't use them to prove that something really happened.  It's like keeping a dream diary - you can become more and more aware of your dreams, but you can't ever show that those dreams were real.
We are talking about an individuals thought words and deeds - born out of the present moment - it is a science of the self for him to progress if he says he wants to know God. If he is lying on his own experiment he does not really want to know God he might be trying to impress someone else. Dreams are not being discussed as conscious awareness.
The interaction with another human being is recorded only to establish the truth of the nature of the individual observing him/herself and making changes to what is observed to become a better human being. Conscious good intentional thoughts words and deeds create a better working environment for all.

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Another point you seem to have missed is that if someone is coming to Earth, it's possible to go to the same place more than once (a specific city would be recognizable as the same city whether it's summer or winter, although it would look different), and it's possible for multiple people to go to that same place.  Yet as far as I know, nobody who's done this astral traveling (or whatever you call it) has managed to encounter a single other person or realistically gone to the same place more than once.  That means their experiences are more like lucid dreaming than them actually going somewhere.
Where are the works of these astral travellers you know? Maybe we should ask for the documents from those that teach the method openly and have them of their students. Paul Twitchell went against protocols. Chances are there are lots of documents with the teacher.

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This is the problem and it has always been the problem.  You refuse to provide evidence to support your assertions, and you expect people to just read through books written by people who make grandiose claims but can't provide any real evidence either.  So why should anyone care?  It sounds like just another religious belief, complete with unverifiable stories which seem to support the whole idea.
I am not the holder of all the info. But the evidence is there that people go within. They pass through the single or third eye located between the eye brows. This place has a well know and documented experience. If thine eye be single thy whole body shall be full of light. It might sound mystical and wooish but it is the same experience for all going through this inner door way of the body at this point. Theists say silenced mind and a perfect teacher can get one into the higher realms where they can witness the same things be taught in the same classrooms. That is not the problem for the followers it is our problem for not doing the science or for not wanting to know perhaps because to go within requires us to be moral and ethical. I am sure if we were in such a class we would have done the experiment. We too would have known the same truths.

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That is not what I mean by publishing.  Scientists publish papers describing their experiments and whatnot in journals which are read and reviewed by their peers and which are also open to the general public.  The point being that other scientists in the same field can review what they did, repeat the experiments, publish comments and criticism, and so on. 
Exactly but I would have no way of interpreting these journals. Only people trained in science can appreciate these works that are written. I just accept that they have done this and this is the work. I do not understand most of it. I have not been trained to, nor do I have any interest. But it exists. Same with the Theists, Their work with their students are determined by the students making the effort, keeping a record, fine tuning themselves. It is that fine tuning that allows their attention to become focused at the third eye with no mind intervention.

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No doubt you'll claim that this is exactly like what advocates of Eck do, but it really isn't.  First off, they're promoting a religious belief - you have to believe for it to work.  Second, there's no realistic way to verify what someone else comes up with; they could easily claim they just went somewhere else in the "astral plane" or whatever it is, and nobody could disprove it.  There would be no way to falsify anyone's specific results.  And third, you have to rely on purely subjective perceptions, when those subjective perceptions are notoriously unreliable (as evidenced by the unreliability of eyewitness testimony).
I'm not a spokesman for Eckankar nor anyone else. I am saying there is a method and there is a process that allows one to go into a higher realm. It is not some mind woo for the consciously aware it can be to some doing this with their mind illusion for the uncontrolled mind can create all sorts of harry potter fictional characters - so if it is a mental process then one can imagine whatever they want and make it real - but for it to be the science of the self aware it must be done over a fully conscious and fully aware self observing their minds - it is the minds nature to delude the consciousness.

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What does that have to do with anything?

The authority or teacher of the class where the science experiment is being done must already know what needs to be achieved at each step in the experiment or it is not the experiment that the students are investigating.

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I'm not your student, so don't treat me like it. 
I was talking about your humanism, not your studentship.

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The reason I made that comment is because you're throwing around similar terms yourself, and it isn't doing you any good.  If you want people to take you seriously, you have to treat them seriously, and you really haven't been treating anyone here seriously since you first started posting.  It gets frustrating.  I had to take a break because I was getting too annoyed with you.
You are only human. I take my breaks too. I am offended very little. Perhaps too stupid to recoginse how important it is for you and others to convince me on how right you are.   For that please forgive me.

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No, I mean, unless someone believes that their methods work, they won't work for them.  The gurus get the methods passed down to them from 'god' and then pass it on to believers.  Meaning, if someone isn't a believer, it won't work for them.
I have no idea where you get this information from.  IMO such a teacher although exists would have no real authority. Every human being is taught about this world by the people in it. It is their determination to know something that sets them on a path to find the answers to that inner question. Every one that knows about God is taught by another how to know scientifically through the awareness of the self. A truthful  Master Disciple relationship. When they claim divine intervention we should be very wary of this weirdness. Not that people do not have divine interventions but they are not the authority on earth. For such they will say "There cometh one who is far more worthy than I am", because each teacher is adding more awareness to the pot of the students and not taking away. When Jesus said in my fathers kingdom there are many mansions he was talking about the various dimensions. But few understood this and he did not get to teach his followers everything. The religious and dogmatic of the day killed him out before his wisdom could have been fully given out.

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What makes you think these teachers know 'god' in the first place?
I am only aware of what they write. The parallels when it come to why they are trying to raise mankind's awareness becomes obvious. God.

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  You've been asked this and asked this and asked this, and you've never really even acknowledged it.
Maybe people do not recognise or understand or even like what I have said. but I have said.

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You define theist and atheist in your own way and aren't even willing to admit that other people define it differently, at least not as far as I've seen. 
I know how they define it. It results with no progression. What has anyone changed with these definitions of theirs when it comes to understanding the theists? Nothing!  - the situation is getting worse. Theism has an authority and atheism has no authority. One knows because of an authority and one does not because it is without direction. It makes sense.

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The fact of the matter is that you believe in what these teachers say, and you believe in the god they preach about, whereas the people here do not do either.
An authority would be nice change rather than listening forever to the garbage of a bunch of headless chickens.

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So you're seen as a liar by most of the people here because you keep claiming to be an atheist even though you clearly have a religious belief in Eck.
Nonsense. I agreed with add hom that paul twitchell did lie about who his Masters were in his book - simply for money and fame. The law of God is thou shall not lie. Why have you missed this crucial point? I have got another of his books to read.

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It would be like someone claiming to be an atheist but promoting the religious doctrine of Christianity.
Well Jesus was an atheist to the Jews. I am an atheists to most Christians and an atheist to most Hindus or Buddhists because I say to them I want to question Buddha or Jesus or Mahavira about their work. As soon as I find someone trust worthy of teaching me about God then I might consider it if he can answer my questions. These guys are dead  so I am an atheists to those that are fixated on the dead teacher. - I am not closed minded though I need to weigh up all the evidence. What I am presenting is the core of that evidence. Consciousness and life. Its what theists promote. My title that theists know and I an atheist don't allows me to examine the real world the real people in it and find out who really knows and who does not. Atheists on here reject that that is even possible. That in my opinion is dogmatic and rigid. It is asking me to deny what is evidence worthy of investigative questioning in a scientific way.

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This may be difficult for you to understand, but when a person makes a claim, it's their responsibility to support it with evidence. 
By what reasoning or why do you think I would find this difficult to understand? I insist atheist prove theists are liars that life does not come from God that consciousness is not part of the all conscious. So long as they are lying or ignoring what the theists are saying it does not bode well for them as being scientific level minded or intelligent. It just proves they are ignoring the method of knowing -- usually the moral ethical compassionate way of living. That is not a good rock to build a foundation on. it will crumble in time to the more consciously aware.

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There are simply too many people who make claims like yours without evidence to have it any other way.
The world is filled with liars. That does not mean I have to be one or agree with them, there is enough on here, in the work place; in the banks; in the politics; in the teaching professions; and the the documentaries provided as proof for this thing or the other. It makes me wonder why someone like a theist would want to be a honest person when all are liars seeking some selfish interest. For the love of God is the only thought.

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  If a person isn't willing to provide evidence, or is unable to, then they have no right to expect anyone else to take them seriously.
Every human being is conscious -- it is how they expand that conscious awareness -- ----- is embedded in their consciousness the ability to turn the other cheek or is it sprouting an eye for and eye. It is about what is going on in them that reveals to me who they are. That is the evidence of the consciousness on other conscious beings.

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  In short, if you want the people here to take you seriously, then you need to provide scientific evidence which supports what you're claiming.  Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.
Consciousness is already with them. Life is already with them. Theists say God is realized with these things nothing else. This is the evidence. There is no other evidence but that of the self aware.

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You've been making claims since the very first day you got here.  "Theists know God, atheists don't" is a claim, for example, and that's hardly the only one.  What people here have been trying to do is to get you to provide evidence to support what you're saying.
There is a reasoning for that title. There was a notion that man created God out of thin air. I was saying he did not. It is taught to man by man and as man evolves he becomes more humane or less depending on if he was influenced by a teacher or not - the more aware is influenced and educated on how to be more aware. Gandhi neurons or observing a teacher allows him to evolve like the the teacher.
Christians follow Christ, not the volcano god, Buddhists follow Buddha not some earth goddess, Sikhs follow Nanak not some God of thunder. Atheists are mixing up reality with fiction. That nonsense and unscientific deduction has to stop.
Man teaches man. We need to pin down the men. They are the theists - those who know.

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No, it is not documented.  This is the thing that you just don't seem to get.  Just because you're willing to accept that these people somehow know 'god' doesn't mean they actually do, and it doesn't relieve you (and them) of the responsibility to prove it.
Well you can ditch all the works from pre history to the present day but you cannot ditch the living teacher of the day. And that is what it is really. The present is real and we have to take that into account before accessing history. But it is not how you gel - you imagine a scenario of the past and build on it. Which is a load of old cobblers since the truth is being created now and that ends up as history.

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Writings in a religious book do not serve as evidence that the original writer somehow knew 'god'.  You need to understand this, Jesuis.
I do. That is why I say life and consciousness is already in you with you and aware of your intents. You do not have to go anywhere but to yourself to know which direction you are heading in. These things are only intellectual entertainment. Do you understand this point? The only truths is what you actually thing say and do. That is your karma.

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Humans are really good at figuring out patterns, even patterns that don't actually mean anything.  People see images in clouds all the time; or they see a pattern and assume that some intelligence was responsible, then make up stories about that intelligence when they don't even know whether it's real or not.
A pattern of a man teaching about God - a religion forming around his teachings. The point of this pattern is a theist who knows God through his conscious awareness and lives that life he asks other to live so that they too can know the same truths.

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Simply put, I'm just too much of a skeptic to take your word, or anyone's word, for it, unless I already know and trust them very well, and sometimes not even then.

Well that is just like me -- but I'm not closed that there is no God. Theists say there is. I am on a journey maybe I will find a theist one day. But can a gnostic atheist say such a thing? Wouldn't that be dogmatic relative to the wisdom of the theist one who knows God?.

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It has nothing to do with atheism, and everything to do with the fact that you keep making claims that you won't support and keep expecting other people to just jump right in and take your word for it by going and reading all the books that you think prove your case.  There are way too many people in this world who will try to take advantage of the credulousness of others, or even just want to promote their own credulousness as fact.  I've fallen for a few schemes like that myself, but not many - and it's only because I'm a skeptic and don't take their word for it.
Listen -- you have to first think most people know that parents, teachers, politicians, lawyers, police enforcers, doctors, etc. - do not really know every thing. But some are convinced they can learn something from another or that they can teach another a little more than what they know. This humanity exists across the world and we are all part of its working. See how some people get upset when they try to teach me something that they know is good for me. That is how theists feel when they try to teach people something that they know is good for them but they are being killed or ridiculed for it.

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That means you and your belief, too.  If you aren't willing to give enough of a damn to provide the evidence you need to support what you believe, then you have no business expecting anyone else to give enough of a damn to care about what you believe and are trying to promote. 

I cannot give you what you already have.

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The only reason I'm still responding is because I've learned to cultivate a huge amount of patience when dealing with other people.
And you think that is not what I do too????? You just have me -- I have everyone else on here. I doubt you have that much patience. But please stick around. I might learn something.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #379 on: March 22, 2014, 07:12:13 PM »
I am trying to shine a light in the dark tunnel so to speak.  That not all atheist are dogmatic or rigid.

There you have it folks!  All we have to do is believe we know "God" exists with NO FUCKING evidence whatsoever and we won't be dogmatic or rigid.

/end thread.

I'm done with your brand of incompetence jesuis.

OK But no one has asked you "believe" -- only to be "aware" of what you think say and do. Once that is cleared up you can feel free you run around with your head in the sky saying I am not believer. But you are accountable for your own thoughts words and deeds. It is as simple as that. You reap what you sow.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:28:26 PM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #380 on: March 22, 2014, 07:22:53 PM »
Jesuis,
 This is your problem:

What theists claim in their books do not make it automatically factual/truthful. You make it seem as if they claim it that's the conclusion. That is not the conclusion.

Theists claiming to know their God doesn't mean their god is therefore real. Atheists claiming that their god isn't real based on that is also not evidence that it isn't real. One comes to the conclusion by studying the facts submitted by the theist--not just claiming they know god because they wrote a book and the book says so; or stating the book is wrong because "they" say so.

So, you can't say: theists know god, instead you can state: theists claim they know god. Big difference and one you seem to not be able to grasp.

-Nam

I can - but you can't- you claim that God is made up -- you will now have to prove to the "living theist" and his followers how you "know" he is making it up? When he knows he is teaching his students how to know and they are confirming his methods are real and true because they follow the instructions.

That is a problem for the real person in the real world -- it is not made up stuff;  and now your imaginary stance becomes clearer -  your claim appears false.
Here lies your problem.
Have you questioned the Theist,
Have you gathered the data from the theist,
Have you documented any of their students.

If no then your claim about a reality is unfounded.

Which theists that know God you have questioned?
How many students have you got their experiences from?
How many have failed the class and have you investigated why there failures and successes.

So long as you have no answers to these where are you going with the truth.

Maybe you are just trying effortlessly to convince me of a non truth? And I am not buying it.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:28:56 PM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Nam

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #381 on: March 22, 2014, 07:52:35 PM »
I can - but you can't-

Evidence?

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…you claim that God is made up

An atheist, as an atheist, makes no such claim. All they do "claim" is a non-belief in god/s, that's it. If an atheist chooses to go further than that than that is on the individual atheist and not on all of them. One atheist does not represent all other atheists. If an atheist makes such a claim then they have to back it up with evidence; if not, then, just like the theist it is their opinion rather than factual. You're making the claim that theists know god because they wrote books about god therefore they know god--that is your opinion that you state as fact without evidence to back it up.

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-- you will now have to prove to the "living theist" and his followers how you "know" he is making it up? When he knows he is teaching his students how to know and they are confirming his methods are real and true because they follow the instructions.

Again: this is an opinion based on unsubstantiated presumptions on your part. You saying it does not make it true; whether you believe it, or not.

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That is a problem for the real person in the real world -- it is not made up stuff;  and now your imaginary stance becomes clearer -  your claim appears false.

Nonsense.

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Here lies your problem.
Have you questioned the Theist,
Have you gathered the data from the theist,
Have you documented any of their students.

If no then your claim about a reality is unfounded.

Which theists that know God you have questioned?
How many students have you got their experiences from?
How many have failed the class and have you investigated why there failures and successes.

So long as you have no answers to these where are you going with the truth.

Maybe you are just trying effortlessly to convince me of a non truth? And I am not buying it.


You're not buying it because you are a theist.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #382 on: March 22, 2014, 07:56:14 PM »
OK, since "evidence" can mean just about anything. How-a-bout we request that you say you have seen the Eck stream, remote viewed something, been to the Akashic library yourself.

Until you say you have experience in the matter, how can we differentiate you from a sucker, who just reads sci-fi and thinks it's real?
None of this matters does it? This desire is from the mind. What theists want is that people overcome the desire of mind. They want them to control the mind so that they can find God. Otherwise the mind will take them all over the place as desire rises in it. Since it is the mind that has free will that laws ensure it is held accountable. The consciously aware is aware of the mind and its dictates, and rejects anything that thwarts its prime directive. God.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #383 on: March 22, 2014, 07:58:11 PM »
Ok I understand - And I am trying to keep it very simple and very narrow. The word Theist the word life and the word consciousness the word truth and the word love and what it means to the self conscious - us.

Stop trying to keep it simple. That approach isn't working.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #384 on: March 22, 2014, 08:17:33 PM »
None of this matters does it? This desire is from the mind. What theists want is that people overcome the desire of mind. They want them to control the mind so that they can find God. Otherwise the mind will take them all over the place as desire rises in it. Since it is the mind that has free will that laws ensure it is held accountable. The consciously aware is aware of the mind and its dictates, and rejects anything that thwarts its prime directive. God.

This is new age bullshit. And religious bullshit. None of my desires need laws to control them. Because none of my desires are that out of bounds. I don't desire riches, women in violent ways, power, control, too big a house, too fast a car, too expensive a meal. I'm not running around lusting after everything everyone else has. I'm at peace with myself in every way I know. Yes, my mind occasionally goes out of control and suggest that I buy a candy bar, but other than that, it is not the source of any of my anguish.

And the anguish I do have? Where does it come from? From the religious and a the quasi-religious and the pseudo-religious, and their claims of knowing everything and a their insistence that I do stuff their way or I'm in deep doo-doo. My anguish comes from the haughtiness and righteousness and power-seeking religious folk who's total lack of consciousness causes them to desire to steal my life and reform it into something they can control.

Whether they are sitting in a cave humming "Ommm" or standing behind a pulpit and pretending to know everything, the religious prove over and over that they have nothing to offer but their egos, and said egos are not welcome on my planet.

You are lauding my enemy and calling me wrong. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #385 on: March 22, 2014, 08:19:12 PM »
Evidence?
I provided the books. You haven't - oh but we did that already - it is not evidence - I understand. But what is your evidence. Theists say the evidence is consciousness and life - wherever you put your attention you will see God did it. That would be life or consciousness. If your consciousness is there observing the object you should know what consciousness is. But you insist you don't. So we are at a stalemate.

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An atheist, as an atheist, makes no such claim. All they do "claim" is a non-belief in god/s, that's it.
Exactly. Theists main concern is that life comes from God and all life is conscious. They did not dream that up. They know by a process of observation and conscious awareness. It is your counter statement that is relative to them.  What do you know about the observer?

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If an atheist chooses to go further than that than that is on the individual atheist and not on all of them. One atheist does not represent all other atheists. If an atheist makes such a claim then they have to back it up with evidence; if not, then, just like the theist it is their opinion rather than factual. You're making the claim that theists know god because they wrote books about god therefore they know god--that is your opinion that you state as fact without evidence to back it up.
No my opinion is that they do not lie. God said thou shall not lie. It is in their books. They say they know. I have no claim to your opinion or theirs. The title Theists know and atheists don't states exactly what each says. I doubt you are lying or they are lying. I do not believe one over the other I understand both are being truthful statements. I understand both are being truthful because that is what I understand from what they say.

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Again: this is an opinion based on unsubstantiated presumptions on your part. You saying it does not make it true; whether you believe it, or not.

That is your opinion not mine based on what I wrote. What could I say that would clarify it for you?

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Nonsense.
self explanatory I presume.

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You're not buying it because you are a theist.
-Nam
That is your opinion. I know I do not know God since only theists do. But your claim to know what I know is always quite interesting. Your powers of ESP never go unnoticed.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #386 on: March 22, 2014, 08:20:40 PM »
Ok I understand - And I am trying to keep it very simple and very narrow. The word Theist the word life and the word consciousness the word truth and the word love and what it means to the self conscious - us.

Stop trying to keep it simple. That approach isn't working.
This thread is supposed to be only about consciousness. .. Theists say they know what it is .. atheists say??
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #387 on: March 22, 2014, 08:29:12 PM »
This is new age bullshit. And religious bullshit. None of my desires need laws to control them. Because none of my desires are that out of bounds. I don't desire riches, women in violent ways, power, control, too big a house, too fast a car, too expensive a meal. I'm not running around lusting after everything everyone else has. I'm at peace with myself in every way I know. Yes, my mind occasionally goes out of control and suggest that I buy a candy bar, but other than that, it is not the source of any of my anguish.

And the anguish I do have? Where does it come from? From the religious and a the quasi-religious and the pseudo-religious, and their claims of knowing everything and a their insistence that I do stuff their way or I'm in deep doo-doo. My anguish comes from the haughtiness and righteousness and power-seeking religious folk who's total lack of consciousness causes them to desire to steal my life and reform it into something they can control.

Whether they are sitting in a cave humming "Ommm" or standing behind a pulpit and pretending to know everything, the religious prove over and over that they have nothing to offer but their egos, and said egos are not welcome on my planet.

You are lauding my enemy and calling me wrong. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
God is not your enemy - it is part of you and is always aware.  Desire on the other hand comes from the mind. The problem with desire is that it does not want to know God. And direct your attention to everything else but God. I am not saying that the religious will help you find God, I doubt they can, but they help put the attention in the right direction. The theist is the cause of religion because of what he teaches, but religion becomes political and gets in the way of the message of the theists. Jesus does not need a pulpit to tell his followers what they need to do to know God. They just need to follow what he does to know. Be aware.  Don't follow that thought does not lead them to God or it leads to hurting other people or life. So long as one is aware of this. The consciousness keeps expanding, ignoring the mind and its attempts to distract it. That's what Buddha created in the Eight fold path to enlightenment.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #388 on: March 22, 2014, 08:37:00 PM »
Jesuis, one of the problems with talking to you about this is that you don't really understand what you're talking about all that well.  So you're coming across exactly like a person who's excited about something but can't explain it sufficiently well, and your efforts are only causing people to get frustrated with you.  Especially since you keep using terminology like 'atheist' and 'theist' in ways other than which most people understand them, and ignoring attempts to correct you.

Let me ask you something.  Is it the message you're trying to communicate that's important, or the specific terms that you use?  If the former, then you should have no problem compromising with us on it so that you stop confusing people with the way you describe things.  If the latter, then I don't see the point in you discussing it, because that's pedantic and you're just going to end up arguing with people nonstop who aren't willing to accept your terminology because it conflicts with their own.

Offline Nam

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #389 on: March 22, 2014, 08:46:51 PM »
I provided the books.

By your own words they would not be evidence because you said that they wrote a book saying they know god, therefore they know god. That doesn't mean they know god just because they say they do in a book[1].

Do they provide non-biased evidence and sources or a lot of conjecture, speculation, and opinions?

And why should any of us read the book? If we read it do you think we'd agree with you? Or open to that possibility?

If you think you say it enough times do you believe we'll relent and agree with you?

Do you believe that coming here, referencing books is evidence of you being right and everyone else being wrong?

What if i referenced a book that says, "Theists do not know god", would you then believe that because someone wrote a book, perhaps teaches it to other people, that theists do not in fact know god because they wrote a book, teaches it to people, because he says so?

Do you understand how ridiculous you sound when you say that?

Or, in all reality of you being here you are in fact a troll?

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You haven't- oh but we did that already - it is not evidence - I understand. But what is your evidence.

I am not claiming anything. One, or a few atheists do not represent all atheists. Get that through your skull.

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Theists say the evidence is consciousness and life - wherever you put your attention you will see God did it. That would be life or consciousness. If your consciousness is there observing the object you should know what consciousness is. But you insist you don't. So we are at a stalemate.

I haven't "insisted" anything of the sort. Where did I specifically insist that? Tell me?

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Exactly. Theists main concern is that life comes from God and all life is conscious. They did not dream that up. They know by a process of observation and conscious awareness. It is your counter statement that is relative to them.  What do you know about the observer?

What do you know about making sense?

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No my opinion is that they do not lie. God said thou shall not lie. It is in their books.

The books they wrote, that they can interpret to their meaning.

It is also in their books not to steal, not to commit adultery, not to kill and a bevy of other things; is it of your opinion that they do none of those things because it's in their books? How demented are you, seriously?

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They say they know. I have no claim to your opinion or theirs. The title Theists know and atheists don't states exactly what each says. I doubt you are lying or they are lying. I do not believe one over the other I understand both are being truthful statements. I understand both are being truthful because that is what I understand from what they say.

So you believe everything everyone says all the time because they say it? That's idiotic.

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That is your opinion.

No, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. All one do is read all your posts and everyone[2] will come to the conclusion you are a theist.

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I know I do not know God since only theists do.

That is an opinion: that only theists know god. How about deists--deists aren't necessarily theists but they say they know god. Also, not all theistic religions even have gods so, do those theists know god? And just because someone says they know something, does that automatically mean they do?

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But your claim to know what I know is always quite interesting. Your powers of ESP never go unnoticed.


And your power to define words to mean whatever you want them to is also quite interesting...no...not really.

-Nam
 1. or anywhere else for that matter
 2. but you apparently
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 08:48:46 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #390 on: March 22, 2014, 08:52:23 PM »
I have already told you once before and I have already given you a link that you seem unable or unwilling to follow:
Consciousness is a by-product of evolution.
Evolution requires life to exist. Consciousness creates life's existence and sustains it for a predetermined time in a form. Theists of the past have said 8.4millions species. Scientists today have said 8.7approx. give or take 0.3

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When you look at history and the founders of religion, none of them knew any of this. They did not know it as dissection of human bodies was not allowed for religious reasons. They never thought to experiment. The observed common traits and, where they could not explain certain behaviours, they said, “God did it.”
How do you know that? Human have always been inquisitive about the body. We have gone down two paths of research -- one of spirituality through conscious awareness and the other through laws that govern matter and what makes it matter.

We are at the cusp or fringes of quantum theory and string theory. Consciousness is beyond that of matter mind and illusion. If you could see the human body from the surface of a higgs bozon particle then you might have a different perspective on life where it comes from and what is its true purpose. You might even confirm a lot of what the theits have been saying and the woo words would be clear as muck.

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We have moved on from this point. We have done the right thing. The god of the gaps has retreated. We know what consciousness is and why it came about.
No you have not done the right thing - not according to the theists. You presume you know. First you assume life was whatever green slime and then it evolves whatever according to some idea. But that has no proof yet and can be changed once you understand different thing about quantum fields. You can say you know but the truth is you don't.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #391 on: March 22, 2014, 08:58:53 PM »
God is not your enemy - it is part of you and is always aware.  Desire on the other hand comes from the mind. The problem with desire is that it does not want to know God. And direct your attention to everything else but God. I am not saying that the religious will help you find God, I doubt they can, but they help put the attention in the right direction. The theist is the cause of religion because of what he teaches, but religion becomes political and gets in the way of the message of the theists. Jesus does not need a pulpit to tell his followers what they need to do to know God. They just need to follow what he does to know. Be aware.  Don't follow that thought does not lead them to God or it leads to hurting other people or life. So long as one is aware of this. The consciousness keeps expanding, ignoring the mind and its attempts to distract it. That's what Buddha created in the Eight fold path to enlightenment.

You do understand that we religious people can survive without a god. Just as religious people can. The only difference being that we know that none exist.

There is no god to find. Do you understand those words? And consciousness, while a fairly pleasant sensation, is not any substitute for this non-existent god. One can learn plenty without resorting to the lies, errors, flaws and/or stupidity of religion. At least I can.

If you need tons of very wrong information to make sense of yourself and the world, you're doing it wrong.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Nam

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #392 on: March 22, 2014, 09:00:04 PM »
I understand Jesuis perfectly well; I noted this when he first got here then put him on my ignore.

See, in his mind, he believes everything about the Bible, perhaps even other religious texts that he deems to be about a specific god. But, in his heart, like our hearts, he doesn't feel this god that he so admires and obviously so many others (theists) know; they've written books, songs, poems, films, painted pictures to revel in this majestic being that Jesuis only hopes to be a part of but sadly, in his heart, like ours, he doesn't feel this god. So, he must be an atheist because only theists know god. He attempts to understand why we don't know god so he can not do those things and learn from it so he can finally become the theist he dreams of being so he can feel god, too.

That's it. But the thing is: there are theists who do not know any god and they're still theists. Jesuis exclaims he's not one of those people because they're actually atheists who don't know they are.

He's not confusing me; he's trolling this website solely to get a personal satisfaction so he can know god. We are fodder to him. A means to an end.

-Nam
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 09:01:51 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #393 on: March 22, 2014, 09:09:24 PM »
Jesuis, one of the problems with talking to you about this is that you don't really understand what you're talking about all that well.  So you're coming across exactly like a person who's excited about something but can't explain it sufficiently well, and your efforts are only causing people to get frustrated with you.  Especially since you keep using terminology like 'atheist' and 'theist' in ways other than which most people understand them, and ignoring attempts to correct you.

Let me ask you something.  Is it the message you're trying to communicate that's important, or the specific terms that you use?  If the former, then you should have no problem compromising with us on it so that you stop confusing people with the way you describe things.  If the latter, then I don't see the point in you discussing it, because that's pedantic and you're just going to end up arguing with people nonstop who aren't willing to accept your terminology because it conflicts with their own.
I understand. -- It makes sense when I first came on here. But I couldn't come up with an appropriate word.
So what do you want to use that would ensure that people know when they hear it that it means we who do not know who or what God is but its opposite word indicates or implies that someone does.??
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #394 on: March 22, 2014, 09:13:26 PM »
I understand Jesuis perfectly well; I noted this when he first got here then put him on my ignore.

See, in his mind, he believes everything about the Bible, perhaps even other religious texts that he deems to be about a specific god. But, in his heart, like our hearts, he doesn't feel this god that he so admires and obviously so many others (theists) know; they've written books, songs, poems, films, painted pictures to revel in this majestic being that Jesuis only hopes to be a part of but sadly, in his heart, like ours, he doesn't feel this god. So, he must be an atheist because only theists know god. He attempts to understand why we don't know god so he can not do those things and learn from it so he can finally become the theist he dreams of being so he can feel god, too.

That's it. But the thing is: there are theists who do not know any god and they're still theists. Jesuis exclaims he's not one of those people because they're actually atheists who don't know they are.

He's not confusing me; he's trolling this website solely to get a personal satisfaction so he can know god. We are fodder to him. A means to an end.

-Nam
You must have taken some path to becoming an atheist. One day you will tell me what is it you observed.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #395 on: March 22, 2014, 09:22:56 PM »
I would suggest you state a scientific position to one of his sentences in a large post, and don't bother answering any of his woo. The thread will then die rapidly.

(It's what Skeppo and he do.)
I am coming to Australia. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth. Any suggestions come to your consciousness that is worthy of seeing off the beaten track.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Nam

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #396 on: March 22, 2014, 09:25:54 PM »
You must have taken some path to becoming an atheist. One day you will tell me what is it you observed.

Non-denial.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #397 on: March 22, 2014, 10:58:27 PM »
Quote from: Jesuis
Lets discuss the seeing aspect of consciousness. Does seeing stop when we close our eye lids? What evidence do you have that you are still seeing the darkness? Are you still conscious of seeing? What is it that is conscious?
Yes, seeing does stop, however, the figurative use of the verb to see is used to mean "understand." and can be used in such constructions as "I can see in my mind..." This does not mean that there are "eyes in your mind."
No! Because if you see blackness you see a colour black. If you see blue or yellow or something - you see. right ? Is that seeing in your minds eye?
Can you be aware of your thinking and can you be aware when your thinking stops. Are you conscious of thinking, seeing and imagining?

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You are confusing  seeing and sight. Is this intentional?
The mechanism for seeing is not only with the eyes. Do you see black when you close your eyes? Can a blind person see something? So no I am not confusing sight with seeing.

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You cannot “consciously” try to see something if there is no light. Eyes operate in light and require light such that the verb “to see” may be used meaningfully.
Now you are just being silly. Everyone has been in a very dark room and have been consciously trying to see something.

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I do not think that you understand the concept of abstract nouns. These are nouns we use for intangible things; things that have no existence "of themselves". They are often "feelings[1]". Concrete nouns are those that are tangible: cat, book, table, etc."

A lot of people think that abstract nouns are "mysterious" things that do have a tangible existence: they are not mysterious and do not have a tangible existence.

I hope this helps.
 1. another abstract noun.
Oh! I guess I forgot all about the hooksamclooksum.


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Can you give any examples or name these "scientists"? I don't think you can. I think you have simply made this up. A lot of people you know think you are mad. (That's an example of unattributed authority. You prove that the statement is wrong. - See the difficulty?)

Richard Dawkins says there is no God. Every Theist who knows there is one will disagree.

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I take as my example L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology, who said, "If you want to make real money, invent a religion." Of course, we do not know if any of the teachers were mentally ill or simply fraudsters, but we suspect they were one or the other or both.
But who is his teacher, what is the morality practices who is the teacher?

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This is called Sensory deprivationWiki and is illegal as a method of interrogation. It quickly causes the subject to have deluded and irrational thoughts. It is not recommended.
I am not talking about that. A dead person has a brain too. A brain is not consciousness. Sensory deprivation is a medical term relative to the senses. Some people go into sensory deprivation chambers willingly.

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Please see the article on Sensory deprivationWiki. You seem to be redefining "consciousness". If you start inventing meanings for words then you cannot communicate with normal people.
You are asking us to accept something that you do not understand. It would be madness for us to agree.
(I appear as well: )

I did a wiki on consciousness. I think you are missing my point and leaning more to neuroscience.

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What is " higher conscious awareness"? How do you know they had it? How do you know they were not simply imagining things> Mentally ill but plausible?
If thine eye be single thy whole body shall be full of light.

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Can you tell us more about how we test for " higher conscious awareness"?
There are openings in the body that allows us to experience or be conscious of the world around us via the senses through some network via that the nervous system which culminates in the brain and its function. Theists call this body consciousness. Higher consciousness is achieved when the senses are not given much attention. Meditation. 
Higher Conscious awareness is knowing where we are focusing our Attention. We have been only trained to focus into the world but our repeated indulgences is from the mind and its desires.  Our mind becomes addicted to the sensory reactions. Sometimes the mind is so engaged in its imagination like reading a novel or watching a movie and sometimes its engaged in the intellect when we are working out complex problems or investigating something that requires detail sequential facts. Higher conscious awareness is achieved when we focus our attention on the inner light. "If thine eye be single".  This is the science of the theists.

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Or is this more of "My words mean what I want them to mean. I don;t know what it means but neither do you."?
Well it is words that you try to redefine with time as you try to make more and more sense of the works of the theists. They have an ability to see things from a different angle and they keep pushing us to do more investigation. They are able to provide a humane solution to increase the conscious awareness of others.

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How do we know that what they see is at all accurate?
Because the experiences are all the same. When you close your eyes do you see darkness. Spirituality starts when the mind stops sending you distracting thoughts. You have to be aware of these occurrences on mind and its nature of illusion.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 12:33:23 AM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #398 on: March 22, 2014, 11:22:56 PM »
I did a wiki on consciousness. I think you are missing my point and leaning more to neuroscience.

Your highly inflated expertise aside, yes, we are missing your point. Mostly because your definition of point (babble on and on and pretend having knowledge about something undefined) is somewhat lacking.

You probably also did a wiki on urination and now lay claim to starting wikipeedia.

What is it that you are lusting after here? Because you surely aren't doing anything consciousness-based. You have to be awake for that.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #399 on: March 23, 2014, 12:11:23 AM »
I'm glad you have a better understanding, but science isn't about semantics.  More specifically, it's intentionally precise - you don't want people to be confused as to what you mean.  That's a big part of the reason why your attempts to define theist and atheist differently than common parlance keep failing in such a big way.  You mean them one way, but the people you're talking to understand them another way.  More to the point, you come across like a religious devotee, which makes your attempts to describe your beliefs as if they're scientific fall totally flat.

Ok I understand - And I am trying to keep it very simple and very narrow. The word Theist the word life and the word consciousness the word truth and the word love and what it means to the self conscious - us.

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Very simply, if you want to promote what you believe as if it's scientific, you need to show scientific evidence to support it.  Diaries and the like don't really count - they're useful, but you can't verify that what's written in the diary actually took place, nor can you show that the things that they write about have an independent existence.
It is a self aware process. Consciousness is in the individual. How do you know whether you are being good to someone or bad to them? It is not the document it is in the observation. Writing it down makes you document it. That is your observation resulting in "Father forgive me for I have sinned". It is your observation, it your determination to do better to become more aware and stop sinning. However that is if you are understanding the process of self realisation. 

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In scientific methodology, stuff gets checked repeatedly.  Basically, one person does an experiment, then other people do the same experiment to see if they get the same results, and so on and so forth.  That's why science puts so much stock into reproducible experiments; if you can't reproduce what someone else does, how can you possibly tell whether their results are valid?  You would just have to take their word for it (which is essentially what you're pushing), which collapses the whole framework that science is built on.
That is also what theists say - people have their conscious awareness - they should be aware of the negative influences being direct at them or from in their mind and not engage its illusions. Far too many want to judge the others in that experiment but not themselves. They should not kill, lie cheat, covet etc -- they should all see why their minds are doing these things and observe it and prevent the hurt that it will inflict on another - they should use their intellect for a higher purpose as they observes what is causing and promoting suffering in action and reaction. This repetitive problem creates more and disharmony in the environment and every individual should be aware what God and the theists are saying -- "be aware" of your self - you will reap what you sow - it is the law of the eternal consciousness!! There is someone going on in the human mind bringing suffering and chaos to all life.

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Diaries are useful in a subjective sense, but you can't use them to prove that something really happened.  It's like keeping a dream diary - you can become more and more aware of your dreams, but you can't ever show that those dreams were real.
We are talking about an individuals thought words and deeds - born out of the present moment - it is a science of the self for him to progress if he says he wants to know God. If he is lying on his own experiment he does not really want to know God he might be trying to impress someone else. Dreams are not being discussed as conscious awareness.
The interaction with another human being is recorded only to establish the truth of the nature of the individual observing him/herself and making changes to what is observed to become a better human being. Conscious good intentional thoughts words and deeds create a better working environment for all.

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Another point you seem to have missed is that if someone is coming to Earth, it's possible to go to the same place more than once (a specific city would be recognizable as the same city whether it's summer or winter, although it would look different), and it's possible for multiple people to go to that same place.  Yet as far as I know, nobody who's done this astral traveling (or whatever you call it) has managed to encounter a single other person or realistically gone to the same place more than once.  That means their experiences are more like lucid dreaming than them actually going somewhere.
Where are the works of these astral travellers you know? Maybe we should ask for the documents from those that teach the method openly and have them of their students. Paul Twitchell went against protocols. Chances are there are lots of documents with the teacher.

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This is the problem and it has always been the problem.  You refuse to provide evidence to support your assertions, and you expect people to just read through books written by people who make grandiose claims but can't provide any real evidence either.  So why should anyone care?  It sounds like just another religious belief, complete with unverifiable stories which seem to support the whole idea.
I am not the holder of all the info. But the evidence is there that people go within. They pass through the single or third eye located between the eye brows. This place has a well know and documented experience. If thine eye be single thy whole body shall be full of light. It might sound mystical and wooish but it is the same experience for all going through this inner door way of the body at this point. Theists say silenced mind and a perfect teacher can get one into the higher realms where they can witness the same things be taught in the same classrooms. That is not the problem for the followers it is our problem for not doing the science or for not wanting to know perhaps because to go within requires us to be moral and ethical. I am sure if we were in such a class we would have done the experiment. We too would have known the same truths.

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That is not what I mean by publishing.  Scientists publish papers describing their experiments and whatnot in journals which are read and reviewed by their peers and which are also open to the general public.  The point being that other scientists in the same field can review what they did, repeat the experiments, publish comments and criticism, and so on. 
Exactly but I would have no way of interpreting these journals. Only people trained in science can appreciate these works that are written. I just accept that they have done this and this is the work. I do not understand most of it. I have not been trained to, nor do I have any interest. But it exists. Same with the Theists, Their work with their students are determined by the students making the effort, keeping a record, fine tuning themselves. It is that fine tuning that allows their attention to become focused at the third eye with no mind intervention.

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No doubt you'll claim that this is exactly like what advocates of Eck do, but it really isn't.  First off, they're promoting a religious belief - you have to believe for it to work.  Second, there's no realistic way to verify what someone else comes up with; they could easily claim they just went somewhere else in the "astral plane" or whatever it is, and nobody could disprove it.  There would be no way to falsify anyone's specific results.  And third, you have to rely on purely subjective perceptions, when those subjective perceptions are notoriously unreliable (as evidenced by the unreliability of eyewitness testimony).
I'm not a spokesman for Eckankar nor anyone else. I am saying there is a method and there is a process that allows one to go into a higher realm. It is not some mind woo for the consciously aware it can be to some doing this with their mind illusion for the uncontrolled mind can create all sorts of harry potter fictional characters - so if it is a mental process then one can imagine whatever they want and make it real - but for it to be the science of the self aware it must be done over a fully conscious and fully aware self observing their minds - it is the minds nature to delude the consciousness.

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What does that have to do with anything?

The authority or teacher of the class where the science experiment is being done must already know what needs to be achieved at each step in the experiment or it is not the experiment that the students are investigating.

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I'm not your student, so don't treat me like it. 
I was talking about your humanism, not your studentship.

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The reason I made that comment is because you're throwing around similar terms yourself, and it isn't doing you any good.  If you want people to take you seriously, you have to treat them seriously, and you really haven't been treating anyone here seriously since you first started posting.  It gets frustrating.  I had to take a break because I was getting too annoyed with you.
You are only human. I take my breaks too. I am offended very little. Perhaps too stupid to recoginse how important it is for you and others to convince me on how right you are.   For that please forgive me.

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No, I mean, unless someone believes that their methods work, they won't work for them.  The gurus get the methods passed down to them from 'god' and then pass it on to believers.  Meaning, if someone isn't a believer, it won't work for them.
I have no idea where you get this information from.  IMO such a teacher although exists would have no real authority. Every human being is taught about this world by the people in it. It is their determination to know something that sets them on a path to find the answers to that inner question. Every one that knows about God is taught by another how to know scientifically through the awareness of the self. A truthful  Master Disciple relationship. When they claim divine intervention we should be very wary of this weirdness. Not that people do not have divine interventions but they are not the authority on earth. For such they will say "There cometh one who is far more worthy than I am", because each teacher is adding more awareness to the pot of the students and not taking away. When Jesus said in my fathers kingdom there are many mansions he was talking about the various dimensions. But few understood this and he did not get to teach his followers everything. The religious and dogmatic of the day killed him out before his wisdom could have been fully given out.

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What makes you think these teachers know 'god' in the first place?
I am only aware of what they write. The parallels when it come to why they are trying to raise mankind's awareness becomes obvious. God.

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  You've been asked this and asked this and asked this, and you've never really even acknowledged it.
Maybe people do not recognise or understand or even like what I have said. but I have said.

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You define theist and atheist in your own way and aren't even willing to admit that other people define it differently, at least not as far as I've seen. 
I know how they define it. It results with no progression. What has anyone changed with these definitions of theirs when it comes to understanding the theists? Nothing!  - the situation is getting worse. Theism has an authority and atheism has no authority. One knows because of an authority and one does not because it is without direction. It makes sense.

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The fact of the matter is that you believe in what these teachers say, and you believe in the god they preach about, whereas the people here do not do either.
An authority would be nice change rather than listening forever to the garbage of a bunch of headless chickens.

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So you're seen as a liar by most of the people here because you keep claiming to be an atheist even though you clearly have a religious belief in Eck.
Nonsense. I agreed with add hom that paul twitchell did lie about who his Masters were in his book - simply for money and fame. The law of God is thou shall not lie. Why have you missed this crucial point? I have got another of his books to read.

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It would be like someone claiming to be an atheist but promoting the religious doctrine of Christianity.
Well Jesus was an atheist to the Jews. I am an atheists to most Christians and an atheist to most Hindus or Buddhists because I say to them I want to question Buddha or Jesus or Mahavira about their work. As soon as I find someone trust worthy of teaching me about God then I might consider it if he can answer my questions. These guys are dead  so I am an atheists to those that are fixated on the dead teacher. - I am not closed minded though I need to weigh up all the evidence. What I am presenting is the core of that evidence. Consciousness and life. Its what theists promote. My title that theists know and I an atheist don't allows me to examine the real world the real people in it and find out who really knows and who does not. Atheists on here reject that that is even possible. That in my opinion is dogmatic and rigid. It is asking me to deny what is evidence worthy of investigative questioning in a scientific way.

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This may be difficult for you to understand, but when a person makes a claim, it's their responsibility to support it with evidence. 
By what reasoning or why do you think I would find this difficult to understand? I insist atheist prove theists are liars that life does not come from God that consciousness is not part of the all conscious. So long as they are lying or ignoring what the theists are saying it does not bode well for them as being scientific level minded or intelligent. It just proves they are ignoring the method of knowing -- usually the moral ethical compassionate way of living. That is not a good rock to build a foundation on. it will crumble in time to the more consciously aware.

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There are simply too many people who make claims like yours without evidence to have it any other way.
The world is filled with liars. That does not mean I have to be one or agree with them, there is enough on here, in the work place; in the banks; in the politics; in the teaching professions; and the the documentaries provided as proof for this thing or the other. It makes me wonder why someone like a theist would want to be a honest person when all are liars seeking some selfish interest. For the love of God is the only thought.

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  If a person isn't willing to provide evidence, or is unable to, then they have no right to expect anyone else to take them seriously.
Every human being is conscious -- it is how they expand that conscious awareness -- ----- is embedded in their consciousness the ability to turn the other cheek or is it sprouting an eye for and eye. It is about what is going on in them that reveals to me who they are. That is the evidence of the consciousness on other conscious beings.

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  In short, if you want the people here to take you seriously, then you need to provide scientific evidence which supports what you're claiming.  Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.
Consciousness is already with them. Life is already with them. Theists say God is realized with these things nothing else. This is the evidence. There is no other evidence but that of the self aware.

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You've been making claims since the very first day you got here.  "Theists know God, atheists don't" is a claim, for example, and that's hardly the only one.  What people here have been trying to do is to get you to provide evidence to support what you're saying.
There is a reasoning for that title. There was a notion that man created God out of thin air. I was saying he did not. It is taught to man by man and as man evolves he becomes more humane or less depending on if he was influenced by a teacher or not - the more aware is influenced and educated on how to be more aware. Gandhi neurons or observing a teacher allows him to evolve like the the teacher.
Christians follow Christ, not the volcano god, Buddhists follow Buddha not some earth goddess, Sikhs follow Nanak not some God of thunder. Atheists are mixing up reality with fiction. That nonsense and unscientific deduction has to stop.
Man teaches man. We need to pin down the men. They are the theists - those who know.

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No, it is not documented.  This is the thing that you just don't seem to get.  Just because you're willing to accept that these people somehow know 'god' doesn't mean they actually do, and it doesn't relieve you (and them) of the responsibility to prove it.
Well you can ditch all the works from pre history to the present day but you cannot ditch the living teacher of the day. And that is what it is really. The present is real and we have to take that into account before accessing history. But it is not how you gel - you imagine a scenario of the past and build on it. Which is a load of old cobblers since the truth is being created now and that ends up as history.

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Writings in a religious book do not serve as evidence that the original writer somehow knew 'god'.  You need to understand this, Jesuis.
I do. That is why I say life and consciousness is already in you with you and aware of your intents. You do not have to go anywhere but to yourself to know which direction you are heading in. These things are only intellectual entertainment. Do you understand this point? The only truths is what you actually thing say and do. That is your karma.

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Humans are really good at figuring out patterns, even patterns that don't actually mean anything.  People see images in clouds all the time; or they see a pattern and assume that some intelligence was responsible, then make up stories about that intelligence when they don't even know whether it's real or not.
A pattern of a man teaching about God - a religion forming around his teachings. The point of this pattern is a theist who knows God through his conscious awareness and lives that life he asks other to live so that they too can know the same truths.

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Simply put, I'm just too much of a skeptic to take your word, or anyone's word, for it, unless I already know and trust them very well, and sometimes not even then.

Well that is just like me -- but I'm not closed that there is no God. Theists say there is. I am on a journey maybe I will find a theist one day. But can a gnostic atheist say such a thing? Wouldn't that be dogmatic relative to the wisdom of the theist one who knows God?.

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It has nothing to do with atheism, and everything to do with the fact that you keep making claims that you won't support and keep expecting other people to just jump right in and take your word for it by going and reading all the books that you think prove your case.  There are way too many people in this world who will try to take advantage of the credulousness of others, or even just want to promote their own credulousness as fact.  I've fallen for a few schemes like that myself, but not many - and it's only because I'm a skeptic and don't take their word for it.
Listen -- you have to first think most people know that parents, teachers, politicians, lawyers, police enforcers, doctors, etc. - do not really know every thing. But some are convinced they can learn something from another or that they can teach another a little more than what they know. This humanity exists across the world and we are all part of its working. See how some people get upset when they try to teach me something that they know is good for me. That is how theists feel when they try to teach people something that they know is good for them but they are being killed or ridiculed for it.

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That means you and your belief, too.  If you aren't willing to give enough of a damn to provide the evidence you need to support what you believe, then you have no business expecting anyone else to give enough of a damn to care about what you believe and are trying to promote. 

I cannot give you what you already have.

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The only reason I'm still responding is because I've learned to cultivate a huge amount of patience when dealing with other people.
And you think that is not what I do too????? You just have me -- I have everyone else on here. I doubt you have that much patience. But please stick around. I might learn something.

Jesus fucking Christ on a bicycle.

I just ripped this statement off a Kirpal worshipper's site
http://spiritualfreedomsatsang.org/1/post/2012/09/the-light-of-kirpal-singh-part-1-of-10.html

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  It was also during Kirpal’s childhood that he made the decision to be a strict vegetarian, announcing to his parents that he didn’t want his “body to be a graveyard”.  He also developed a well-defined sense of what was spiritually appropriate and what wasn’t.  For instance, Kirpal had “paranormal” talents such as transvision, precognition, healing, etc.   Yet he was anything but enamored with them (and, in fact, often yearned for a normal boyhood).  He intuitively knew that such abilities were of a psychic nature, a distraction from God and, as such, to be generally avoided.  All that mattered to him was being an obedient instrument of Divine Love.  Kirpal commented on this many years later when he wrote,

     “Miracles, spiritual healings, psychic phenomena, fortune-telling, akashic records and worldly desires are all to be left aside, for these are positive hindrances on the Path.  The entire energy is to be conserved for internal progress.

I think it's really great that Kirpal Singh could have gone to the Akashic records to find a cure for malaria, but ... gosh... didn't. What he came back with are excuses, which are the same type of excuses as Christian excuses for why God doesn't show himself.

Has Jesuis, the PhD Librarian, stated that he has seen anything claimed by the cult of Singh? I can't be bothered reading his brainwashed preaching, to find out.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #400 on: March 23, 2014, 12:18:23 AM »
Can we not quote long ass texts, please. I'm on a phone. If I can keep from doing it, so can you.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #401 on: March 23, 2014, 12:22:23 AM »
You must have taken some path to becoming an atheist. One day you will tell me what is it you observed.

I observed the total shit of the believer.

Being, originally, from the New Age cult, I was given a smorgasbord of things to believe, which incidentally, are still believed by most of the people around me, because I live in a hippy drop-out area. I found out that the beliefs could all be debunked by simple means, and yet people still didn't want to put the effort in, to understand that it was all lies. They genuinely prefer lies. From time to time, I go on genuine quests, to see if someone knows any genuine truths. However, all I encounter is more liars, and more questions; more delusions.

What is it about you and Skeptic, that you can't understand what an atheist is, even though you claim to be an expert on the subject?



Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #402 on: March 23, 2014, 12:24:16 AM »
Can we not quote long ass texts, please. I'm on a phone. If I can keep from doing it, so can you.

-Nam

Sorry, but I did it deliberately. I want to acknowledge that I didn't read all that shit. I read the first few paragraphs of sanctimonious preaching, but then declined to buy into it. If I had merely not quoted it, he would assume that I was neutral on the subject of his blathering.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #403 on: March 23, 2014, 12:34:20 AM »
What is it that you are lusting after here?

I still think he's writing a book. He will most likely claim that he did all this for "research", to find out about atheists. However, he had to create an atheist that wasn't there, in order to have his profound arguments against him.
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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #404 on: March 23, 2014, 01:07:57 AM »
Hey guys, I just went to the Akashic records; the vault of everything that can be known in the universe, and I now know the cure for HIV, malaria, Parkinsons, Alzheimer's, cancer, depression, diabetes, heart disease and tooth decay.

But I'm not going to tell you any of it, because I can't be bothered. It would be a distraction to you, and you are generally better off dying from these diseases, because it will force you to come to terms with the vibrancy of life, if you all die slow, agonizing deaths.

Tapping into the Eck music stream will allow you to heal all these diseases, anyway. So, I'm just motivating you. (*audience laughs sycophantically*)

I'm not even interested in telling you one of the cures, to substantiate any of my claims. I'd far rather you just adored me for being able to do all these awesome things.

Even though I myself, am now surfing the Eck stream on a daily basis, I could cure my own terminal disease, but choose not to, because I want to show you how humble I am. (*audience sighs with sheer inspiration*)

The message I want to leave you with, is that I am totally awesome. (*audience claps*)
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #405 on: March 23, 2014, 01:13:22 AM »
I observed the total shit of the believer.

What is it about you and Skeptic, that you can't understand what an atheist is, even though you claim to be an expert on the subject?
I have no idea about Skeptic - but as a human being I have seen many things humane and inhumane. I also understand that theists are teaching their disciples to live a more humane life, a more consciously aware life, whereby atheists are simply dropouts of religion in the pursuit of no moral authority even of themselves.

If society is to advance or evolve it is for the more humane interaction and theists have already said what mankind has to do. Thou shall not kill, not steal, not covet, not lie etc - I see nothing humane in your approach - if atheism is defined by you or others as devoid of the authority of the consciously aware or the awareness of someone with higher moral lives to emulate through Gandhi neurons then where are you heading with this.  Theists have already cornered that path of the human psyche through the conscious awareness agenda through leadership by example through the authority of God.

If one wanted to push more porn, more slavery, more abuse, more dictatorship, more alcohol, more sexualised world that lowers and lowers the human consciousness where there is less and less equality then it can only be done by an inhumane agenda where there is little awareness and little consciousness. But if you wanted to promote the more consciously awareness as taught by the theists the highest most humane path will still come from the one who knows God.

Where are you really going with this agenda of yours?
What authority is aware of the inhumanity and what authority can stop the inhumanity from pursuing more inhumanity if not the self aware?
I think once you have some authority more and more people would join up. But to claim it is your authority and not Gods that could be dictatorship.

What would be the purpose of life if not the humane agenda?
What would be the ambition of the youths if all knowledge could be downloaded?
What would be the driving force for if not the humane consciously aware people?

All I see for your version of atheism is more and more sex slavery, more and more porn, drugs and alcohol addicts where humans are caught into these states of mind by the promotion of try it you might like it thus reducing or promoting the lack of conscious awareness. Thus creating more and more inhumane acts. Its all a selfish agenda not so?

It would take a lot of stupidity on my part to accept what you are trying to promote by way of humanism if you take the conscious awareness of theists out of the equation.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.