Author Topic: What is consciousness? Theists say ...  (Read 4727 times)

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Online Graybeard

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #290 on: March 20, 2014, 06:56:08 PM »

From What I understand he was a mystic who was unschooled -

I don't think that anyone will disagree with you on that. Here is the guy making things up because he is a liar and a fraud:

In the Golden Age man lived for one lac (100,000) of years. People could put in 70,000 years, 80,000 years in that practice.

Then came the Silver Age. In the Silver Age the age came down one tenth to 10,000 years. People could put in two or three thousand years in that way.

Then came the Copper Age. Life was cut down to one-third. Even then you could put in two or three hundred years.

Nowadays man does not live 70 years.

You do realise that all that is so much rubbish, don't you. Well, it is more than rubbish: rubbish is discarded. But apparently the gullible and ignorant actually pick up this dross and value it. They value the idea that "once upon a time" people lived for 100,000 years... yet in all that time, those people never managed to write anything down. They never managed to create anything that would benefit mankind; they failed significantly to even create a civilisation that has lasted or even leaves a trace behind.

They spent 70,000 years studying yoga!

Such stupidity.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #291 on: March 20, 2014, 07:53:06 PM »
How did he learn about “God”?
  - From his teacher - Sawan Singh. Did you do any research?
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Was he told about “God” from someone else, his parents perhaps?  Yes, that is where I suspect Kirpal Singh learned about “God”, from his parents.
His teacher - Sawan Singh. No need to make up what is not true.

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Just about every spiritual or religious person (if not all) learn about “God” as children, from the people who raise them. 
Sweeping statement again we have is books and all dedicated to his teacher. The sign of a true human being who claims nothing for the knowledge he has but says it is his Masters. 

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This is a serious problem as children will believe almost anything including true and untrue things.
More sweeping statements. Parents always wants the best things for their children. Not necessary what you want them to teach their children. Which in my opinion has no moral agenda or leader. You need to fix that problem first to claim it is a problem of others.

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Simply having a desire to know “God” proves nothing. 
It proves that one has that desire. Because that sets up their determination for the rest of their life on who and what they want to be.

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Some children may also have a desire to know Santa Claus, however eventually children figure out the truth or they are told the truth that Santa Claus is imaginary.
Nonsense -- we are talking about real people and their desire to know what they know - not imaginary ones. Selective Bias at work and you do not see it.

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There is no evidence that Santa Claus actually exists.  So, where is the evidence that “God” actually exists?
One is a story to feed our minds to be a better human being the other is what our individual consciousness being part of the all consciousness. There is evidence the theists have been saying exists - Life comes from God. They know this and you don't. Neil De Grasse said he did not know where life comes from and not afraid to admit that. Theists say they know where life comes from and is not afraid to say that.

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The word “Idiot” as defined by Merriam-Webster:
1 usually offensive :  a person affected with extreme mental retardation
2 :  a foolish or stupid person

I think the first definition is no longer proper, someone would have to be fairly insensitive to call someone with a mental disorder an idiot.  The possibility does exist though that someone might simply appear foolish or stupid and actually have an unknown mental disorder causing their behavior.

The second definition is likely (and maybe more often) the intended meaning behind using the word “idiot”.  Someone who is foolish or stupid.

The word “foolish” as defined by Merriam-Webster:

1 :  lacking in sense, judgment, or discretion
2 a :  ABSURD, RIDICULOUS
b :  marked by a loss of composure :  NONPLUSSED
3 :  INSIGNIFICANT, TRIFLING

The word “stupid” as defined by Merriam-Webster:

1 a :  slow of mind :  OBTUSE
b :  given to unintelligent decisions or acts :  acting in an unintelligent or careless manner
c :  lacking intelligence or reason :  BRUTISH
2 :  dulled in feeling or sensation :  TORPID <still stupid from the sedative>
3 :  marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting :  SENSELESS <a stupid decision>
4 a :  lacking interest or point <a stupid event>
b :  VEXATIOUS, EXASPERATING <the stupid car won't start>

It is fair to say, people who assume things with zero supporting evidence for their assumptions are idiots.

No it is not fair at all. You are making sweeping judge mental statements. Very inappropriate for someone to select such a bias about another human being they have no knowledge off. You should first try to prove he is an idiot through something he has said or written or know because you were in his class. But to base your judgement on something so intangible is based on your selective bias processing. Human psychological error - not science.

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For instance, if I were to assume that aliens from another planet are stealing my socks to fuel their intergalactic space ships, I would be an idiot.  If I were to assume my 14-speed bike can fly me to the moon, I would be an idiot.
Indeed your idiocy would have started with your assumption without evidence.

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I can’t speak for Graybeard, but for me it would be my educated stance that Kirpal Singh is an idiot.  I say that not as an insult, but as a evaluation.
That's what I am worried about. Your ability to make claims about other people who you do not know and have not studied and you would call that an educated stance. Don't you think it is Selective bias?

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What someone wants to be from an early age has nothing to do with being an idiot. 
Obviously you have not been paying attention. Everyone if free should be allowed to follow their dreams, to have their purpose of life fulfilled. Who gave you the dictatorial powers over what should or should not be studied? If you say you want people to have morals you would need to have an authority be it the king, the state , the army or the President. You need a moral authority. Theists say God is that moral authority.

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Interesting enough, this “urge” to learn and know things has developed over millions of years through evolution and is what has helped the human race survive.
Whose story is that??? You don't really know what life is or how it survives.

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We want to know if there is a lion in the bush that is about to kill us, we want to know about the trails used by animals so we can hunt, we want to know about the cycles of the seasons so we can learn what time of year is the best time to plant crops. 
Observation is one of the things we use to navigate the world, but it is not the only thing. Feral children would prove you are not on the right track.

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Unfortunately, simply wanting to learn or know things isn’t enough as a person has to put work into learning and knowing, and has to care if what they learn or know is actually the truth.
I am sure if you read Kirpal Singhs books you would find that this is very important to him and to his followers.

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Some people however take the easy way out of doing the hard work it takes to learn and know things, and just make stuff up like “God exists and created the universe”.
Yes some do - however it does not apply to Kirpal Singh. Knowing God is not the same as saying God did it.
How many book has he written? What education standards did he reach? - What lack of attention to detail in the books he has written has indicated he lacked intelligence on the subjects he taught? Clearly if you were going to say he was an idiot I would have expected a better research than sweeping statements based on your personal group bias.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #292 on: March 20, 2014, 07:58:43 PM »
From What I understand he was a mystic who was unschooled -

I don't think that anyone will disagree with you on that. Here is the guy making things up because he is a liar and a fraud:

In the Golden Age man lived for one lac (100,000) of years. People could put in 70,000 years, 80,000 years in that practice.

Then came the Silver Age. In the Silver Age the age came down one tenth to 10,000 years. People could put in two or three thousand years in that way.

Then came the Copper Age. Life was cut down to one-third. Even then you could put in two or three hundred years.

Nowadays man does not live 70 years.

You do realise that all that is so much rubbish, don't you. Well, it is more than rubbish: rubbish is discarded. But apparently the gullible and ignorant actually pick up this dross and value it. They value the idea that "once upon a time" people lived for 100,000 years... yet in all that time, those people never managed to write anything down. They never managed to create anything that would benefit mankind; they failed significantly to even create a civilisation that has lasted or even leaves a trace behind.

They spent 70,000 years studying yoga!

Such stupidity.
Sorry, you misunderstood me -- this comment I made was on Kabir and not on Kirpal Singh.

As For kirpal singh comments -- "the golden age etc" -- can you say you know what he was talking about?
I am still working on it. But your comments appear to have done the research and concluded -- have you?
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #293 on: March 20, 2014, 08:00:39 PM »
Look at it this way:

Anytime someone comes up with a plan, either in engineering or architecture (or almost anything in life), the lead designer with the plan is going to be asked questions and better know what he or she is doing.  If the lead designer can't answer questions in a meaningful way then the end result is going to be pretty bad.
But I am just a an idiot not a lead designer. I know you think I have potential but I know who I am - and I am with the others on this.

Well then, shouldn't you stop acting like the lead designer then and simply say "I don't know"?
I did!
I am an atheist -- I don't know --> Theists do.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 08:22:58 PM by Jesuis »
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #294 on: March 20, 2014, 08:08:01 PM »
One need do no research to conclude that humans never lived for 70-80,000 years. or 2,000 years, or 200 years. That would be like checking to see if snakes were ever a hundred miles long. It goes against both evidence and common sense. I realize that you're sort of stuck using only the former, but that should be more than enough to draw you away from such nonsense.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #295 on: March 20, 2014, 08:10:33 PM »
Two things. We're telling you that the stuff you want us to read is a bunch of crap. And two year olds can at least point. Also, two year olds also have a track record of being accurate about when they pooped and stuff, so they are worthy of our attention. So far you haven't managed that.

Books about the crap you're pushing are written to make money, not to enlighten. You need to learn that at some point in your life or you'll be reading a lot of stuff unworthy of your attention.
Come on now it is free on the internet. No money to be lost or gained. At least tell me a truth. I do not do belief very well. Where is the crap in what they say? Remember there are things we do not know and we all accept that don't we? I am willing to accept I do not know how they know those things. But calling it crap because you fail to understand how they know does not sit very well with me. Tell me how you know it is crap?
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #296 on: March 20, 2014, 08:22:03 PM »
One need do no research to conclude that humans never lived for 70-80,000 years. or 2,000 years, or 200 years. That would be like checking to see if snakes were ever a hundred miles long. It goes against both evidence and common sense. I realize that you're sort of stuck using only the former, but that should be more than enough to draw you away from such nonsense.
According to some scientists we can prolong life. How long is still being debated. What is death if not a predestined time in a form. We have built such monumental things in the past that defies all our common sense. Whatever we claim to know could all be nonsense as soon as we find another way of thinking of the problem. For thousands of years Europeans thought the Earth was flat and then one day it was no longer flat. Maybe we are on the wrong track and as soon as we are put our minds back on track we will see things differently. Theists are trying to lead us out of ignorance.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #297 on: March 20, 2014, 09:44:01 PM »
One need do no research to conclude that humans never lived for 70-80,000 years. or 2,000 years, or 200 years. That would be like checking to see if snakes were ever a hundred miles long. It goes against both evidence and common sense. I realize that you're sort of stuck using only the former, but that should be more than enough to draw you away from such nonsense.
According to some scientists we can prolong life. How long is still being debated. What is death if not a predestined time in a form. We have built such monumental things in the past that defies all our common sense. Whatever we claim to know could all be nonsense as soon as we find another way of thinking of the problem. For thousands of years Europeans thought the Earth was flat and then one day it was no longer flat. Maybe we are on the wrong track and as soon as we are put our minds back on track we will see things differently. Theists are trying to lead us out of ignorance.

A) The Europeans didn't think the earth was flat. That's a myth. Not that I'm surprised that you believe it, being a myth and all, but it isn't true. The Greeks figured out the planet was round long ago, and they mentioned it to others.

B) Hmmm, where are all the stories about how we used to live long but we don't any more, because the gods are pissed or something. Yea, the bible claims long lives, but they only started 6,000 years ago, so 70-80,000 is out of the question. Had we once lived long and stopped doing so, there would be folklore and horror and gnashing of teeth and sorrow and such, not just one guy claiming it was once so in some matter-of-fact way.

It would muck up our psyches something fierce to live that much less than what was once normal. And if we had the capacity to live that long (and lets ignore how worn down our teeth would be after even a thousand years, especially back when there was lots of dirt in our food), there would still be a few folks living very long lives because there are still people who live in ways similar to the ancients. Those that still live natural lifestyles, in various jungles and such, are old at 35 and ancient if they live to 50, even though many of them are very spiritual.

Accessing the amazing power of consciousness to live half of forever while tigers are roaming and lower backs are sproinging out of shape and knees are over-bending and such is a bit much to ask. There is nothing in our biology to cause us to live longer merely because we want to, and science is studying how to prolong life as it confronts the built-in time limits that exist in the human body.

Despite the efforts of naïve and unenlightened doubters, science is trying to lead us out of ignorance. Sadly, too many prefer ancient delusions. Presumably because they sound better than funeral planning.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #298 on: March 20, 2014, 11:04:53 PM »

From What I understand he was a mystic who was unschooled -
I don't think that anyone will disagree with you on that. Here is the guy making things up because he is a liar and a fraud:
In the Golden Age man lived for one lac (100,000) of years. People could put in 70,000 years, 80,000 years in that practice.
Then came the Silver Age. In the Silver Age the age came down one tenth to 10,000 years. People could put in two or three thousand years in that way.
Then came the Copper Age. Life was cut down to one-third. Even then you could put in two or three hundred years.
Nowadays man does not live 70 years.
You do realise that all that is so much rubbish, don't you. Well, it is more than rubbish: rubbish is discarded. But apparently the gullible and ignorant actually pick up this dross and value it. They value the idea that "once upon a time" people lived for 100,000 years... yet in all that time, those people never managed to write anything down. They never managed to create anything that would benefit mankind; they failed significantly to even create a civilisation that has lasted or even leaves a trace behind.

They spent 70,000 years studying yoga!

Such stupidity.

He is not "unschooled".

What I searched for were incorrect things that Kirpal could get away with saying, because Indian culture would lap it up. Hindu mythology believes that there was a golden age, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age#Hindu when the Mahatabrahavedasbumptipok was written. Indians have also believed that spiritual homeopathy was true, since Swedenborg made it up. Note: Indians in Kirpal's time believed in the mega-diluted homeopathy, not the European type, that is now entering their stores. It would also be an insult to Indians if he said that astrology was a load of bunk. Consequently, he could get away with endorsing it.

Everything he says is consistent with things he can get away with saying, in his culture. The objective of a spiritual leader is to not stick his neck out too far. If he says anything really true, he will get mocked an killed. If he says anything that can be tested, they will test what he says, and then mock him. So, he sticks to repeating truisms about the past, that people will expect from a spiritual leader. A spiritual leader has to flatter his audience, and supply ways to make it feel superior, or he will lose popularity.

Similarly, Jesus supposedly believed in Genesis, and wouldn't go against the Hebrew scriptures, or beliefs of his time. That is why his words can be confused with midrash. His statements were all paved out by earlier Pharisees.

Jesuis, think of the reasons you WANT to believe in Kirpal Singh, and you will find that it is not for the reasons that he teaches.

I will give you an example. Christians want to believe in Jesus, so they can go to heaven, but an interpretation of Jesus' philosophy shows that would be a sin of vanity, because they believe that they are worth saving. Revelations says that the streets of heaven are made of gold, but that appeals to people's greed.

You can't conform to what a spiritual leader says, because they are always attracting you with the lure of greed.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 11:35:25 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #299 on: March 20, 2014, 11:11:28 PM »
Come on now it is free on the internet. No money to be lost or gained. At least tell me a truth. I do not do belief very well. Where is the crap in what they say? Remember there are things we do not know and we all accept that don't we? I am willing to accept I do not know how they know those things. But calling it crap because you fail to understand how they know does not sit very well with me. Tell me how you know it is crap?

Sorry dude, but you do belief extraordinarily well.  You believe any old bullsh*t.

You do not know how they know these things, but you just accept that they know these things.

You are a naïve little child.  You are a con artist's wet dream.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #300 on: March 20, 2014, 11:28:47 PM »
Two things. We're telling you that the stuff you want us to read is a bunch of crap. And two year olds can at least point. Also, two year olds also have a track record of being accurate about when they pooped and stuff, so they are worthy of our attention. So far you haven't managed that.

Books about the crap you're pushing are written to make money, not to enlighten. You need to learn that at some point in your life or you'll be reading a lot of stuff unworthy of your attention.
Come on now it is free on the internet. No money to be lost or gained. At least tell me a truth. I do not do belief very well. Where is the crap in what they say? Remember there are things we do not know and we all accept that don't we? I am willing to accept I do not know how they know those things. But calling it crap because you fail to understand how they know does not sit very well with me. Tell me how you know it is crap?

It is inconsistent with reality and it sounds too much like others peoples crap, and none of it is true anyway, so why should I bother. I went through my new age period 25 years ago, reading Hindu and Buddhist and modern theisms and though a lot of it sounded great, it was no more grounded in reality than Santa of Jesus. If you can't tell the difference, then of course you're going to ask how I can tell it is crap. You're going to have to trust me on this one, because you have no way of getting anything out of what I say otherwise.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #301 on: March 21, 2014, 12:10:06 AM »
One need do no research to conclude that humans never lived for 70-80,000 years. or 2,000 years, or 200 years. That would be like checking to see if snakes were ever a hundred miles long. It goes against both evidence and common sense. I realize that you're sort of stuck using only the former, but that should be more than enough to draw you away from such nonsense.
According to some scientists we can prolong life. How long is still being debated. What is death if not a predestined time in a form. We have built such monumental things in the past that defies all our common sense. Whatever we claim to know could all be nonsense as soon as we find another way of thinking of the problem. For thousands of years Europeans thought the Earth was flat and then one day it was no longer flat. Maybe we are on the wrong track and as soon as we are put our minds back on track we will see things differently. Theists are trying to lead us out of ignorance.

A) The Europeans didn't think the earth was flat. That's a myth. Not that I'm surprised that you believe it, being a myth and all, but it isn't true. The Greeks figured out the planet was round long ago, and they mentioned it to others.
Hmm, They were quite intelligent the Greeks. Do you want to say which educated European nation pursued the belief that it was flat.

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B) Hmmm, where are all the stories about how we used to live long but we don't any more, because the gods are pissed or something. Yea, the bible claims long lives, but they only started 6,000 years ago, so 70-80,000 is out of the question. Had we once lived long and stopped doing so, there would be folklore and horror and gnashing of teeth and sorrow and such, not just one guy claiming it was once so in some matter-of-fact way.
Is the bible fact based? Could it also be that it is a myth that the bible says it is only 6000 years ?
Anyway what was interesting to me is that people long time ago claimed people used to live longer -- and theists today are still claiming that fact. Perhaps it was due to the time associated with cell deterioration.

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It would muck up our psyches something fierce to live that much less than what was once normal. And if we had the capacity to live that long (and lets ignore how worn down our teeth would be after even a thousand years, especially back when there was lots of dirt in our food), there would still be a few folks living very long lives because there are still people who live in ways similar to the ancients. Those that still live natural lifestyles, in various jungles and such, are old at 35 and ancient if they live to 50, even though many of them are very spiritual.
That is assuming psyches were what it is now - and deterioration rates were the same - perhaps it wasn't anything you can imagine but human consciousness was in that form.

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Accessing the amazing power of consciousness to live half of forever while tigers are roaming and lower backs are sproinging out of shape and knees are over-bending and such is a bit much to ask. There is nothing in our biology to cause us to live longer merely because we want to, and science is studying how to prolong life as it confronts the built-in time limits that exist in the human body.
Well that is right -- the time and the age we live in have imposed upon us the length of time we live. Our cell structures are broken down faster than it used to be. There is a star trek movie Insurrection that addressed this possibility.

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Despite the efforts of naïve and unenlightened doubters, science is trying to lead us out of ignorance. Sadly, too many prefer ancient delusions. Presumably because they sound better than funeral planning.
Science is a method -- not all scientists use a method to describe what they know - they use book sense (as my grandad used to say.) to claim they are scientists when they are not. All they do is repeat what others say, but they have no imagination of thier own - if you tell them the earth is flat the repeat it as if they know - it was coined group think in the Bush years about the Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. The scientist of the self aware understands that there are laws for the self to follow to become aware of higher states of consciousness or higher dimensions of reality.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #302 on: March 21, 2014, 12:14:07 AM »
Come on now it is free on the internet. No money to be lost or gained. At least tell me a truth. I do not do belief very well. Where is the crap in what they say? Remember there are things we do not know and we all accept that don't we? I am willing to accept I do not know how they know those things. But calling it crap because you fail to understand how they know does not sit very well with me. Tell me how you know it is crap?

Sorry dude, but you do belief extraordinarily well.  You believe any old bullsh*t.

You do not know how they know these things, but you just accept that they know these things.

You are a naïve little child.  You are a con artist's wet dream.
And you know this because of your being in that situation before? Or you have that power to imagine and make stuff up? How would  know when you know a truth to tell me it is true follow you cause I am stupid? Why are you having such difficulty if what you say is true?
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #303 on: March 21, 2014, 01:15:46 AM »
He is not "unschooled".
I was talking about Kabir the mystic poet.

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What I searched for were incorrect things that Kirpal could get away with saying, because Indian culture would lap it up. Hindu mythology believes that there was a golden age, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age#Hindu when the Mahatabrahavedasbumptipok was written. Indians have also believed that spiritual homeopathy was true, since Swedenborg made it up. Note: Indians in Kirpal's time believed in the mega-diluted homeopathy, not the European type, that is now entering their stores. It would also be an insult to Indians if he said that astrology was a load of bunk. Consequently, he could get away with endorsing it.
So he was no idiot then!

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Everything he says is consistent with things he can get away with saying, in his culture. The objective of a spiritual leader is to not stick his neck out too far. If he says anything really true, he will get mocked an killed. If he says anything that can be tested, they will test what he says, and then mock him. So, he sticks to repeating truisms about the past, that people will expect from a spiritual leader. A spiritual leader has to flatter his audience, and supply ways to make it feel superior, or he will lose popularity.
But he says "If a Master cannot give you proof of God he is no Master". His followers are like Paul Twitchell - whose proof culminated in the writing of the Tigers Fang.

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Similarly, Jesus supposedly believed in Genesis, and wouldn't go against the Hebrew scriptures, or beliefs of his time. That is why his words can be confused with midrash. His statements were all paved out by earlier Pharisees.
Of course - if there is a God they will all be saying something similar won't they? It is how they know that first must be looked at. "By their words and deeds we should know them". If a murdering lot leaves the roman empire kiliing those who did not follow them they are not working for ther master but for the evil in them. The greed and the promise of a lying monarch.

If a theist wants you to know they will first remind you that knowing requires you to live an ethical life - they want you to evolve your highest humanity then they can embark on your spiritual growth. Only the inhumane person who does not know God will say to kill or murder another life. The true theists see action and reaction as laws and would say if you live by the sword you would die by the sword. This will happen despite what you do. Your karma will always catch you there is nothing to stop karma from happening. It is a law. They are making a compassionate point and a law that stands above all other laws. The law of love.

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Jesuis, think of the reasons you WANT to believe in Kirpal Singh, and you will find that it is not for the reasons that he teaches.
He is dead. I cannot believe or follow a dead man. Even Kirpal Singh did not follow some dead man. I am making a point -- Theists are real human beings teaching about God .. the atheists who do not know God make stuff up because they imagine what god might be. Imagining and thinking up stuff that is called wishful thinking - it is not real or true - it is the minds work. Which we know because we are conscious of it and its deceitful agenda.

My point - is that in the world there is always a teacher theist keeping god active with man encouraging those that come to him, who is constantly trying to raise mankind's awareness to his level of consciousness for free. A theist works for God for free and imparts that spark of divinity the raises the disciples awareness.

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I will give you an example. Christians want to believe in Jesus, so they can go to heaven, but an interpretation of Jesus' philosophy shows that would be a sin of vanity, because they believe that they are worth saving. Revelations says that the streets of heaven are made of gold, but that appeals to people's greed.
I understand what religions and beliefs are. I am obviously not a religion follower nor do I need Jesus to save me. I am talking about how we know there is a God ... It is being taught to us by theists and some of those who hear about it go blabbering their mouths and everyone gets duped by their thinking process. Makes idols, makes concepts, makes rituals, makes the unknown known to give them a focus. But these things are not God. The kingdom of heaven is within them. To know that they need to rise out of bodily restrictions.

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You can't conform to what a spiritual leader says, because they are always attracting you with the lure of greed.
Really? Are we gone back to talking generally or directly about the theists? For instance Paul Twitchell talked a lot about inner realms and was able to take one or two of his closest disciples to a region above. But we know he was greedy and wanted to be a Master. This was to prove his character and would be his historic downfall. Kirpal Singh on the other hand accepted no money from anyone. No theist will - they would say give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #304 on: March 21, 2014, 01:19:58 AM »
The scientist of the self aware understands that there are laws for the self to follow to become aware of higher states of consciousness or higher dimensions of reality.

Nope. But you go ahead and think that if it helps keep your delusions in one piece.

There is no scientist of the self aware. There are quacks of the self aware, but they aren't worth talking about.

We are not having a discussion. You are talking at us and we are flipping you the bird. Nothing else is happening in this thread or the other one you are mucking about in. You are making claims, you are astonished that we are rejecting them, and you think that means you have to repeat the same things over and over for the next few months. If you were claiming that fish farts were proof that rainbows have a different origin than claimed in science books, you would probably have a better chance of succeeding than with this junk you are peddling.

I am not questioning the curious and/or fascinating aspects of human consciousness. But it is the be all and end all of everything the same way that Pez dispensers are the epitome of human technological achievement. The human brain is fascinating, but it is not the basis of ultimate truths, nor is consciousness an ultimate of any sort. It is merely interesting. And you're even ruining that.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #305 on: March 21, 2014, 03:52:09 AM »
So tell me.  Did the pagans genuinely know the Mother Goddess?  Or did they get things all wrong?  And how - at the time - could you have told the difference?
Can you see how you time travel to justify your thinking as if you really know what was going on back then.  All we know is that people followed a guy teaching about God. That is still happening today.  If we want to know about God we would have to go to the teacher it is that simple. That is the only science to knowing.

There are only two options as to what could have been "going on back then".  The teachers were correct, or the teachers were incorrect, when they claimed knowledge of god.   What we DO know is that there are many many religions and beliefs that have lasted long past the original teachers were dead.

So my questions to you still stand.  Did the pagans genuinely know the Mother Goddess?  Or did they get things all wrong?  And how - at the time - could you have told the difference?

Do you have the intellectual honesty to answer any of those questions, even with a straight "I don't know"?  Probably not - because to say "I don't know" would open to question all the assertions you make about current teachers, and you can't do that as you are too emotionally vested.  You can't say "yes, they genuinely knew", because that means your current teachers are definitely wrong.  And you can't say "no, they were wrong" as you would then have to admit the possibility that your current teachers are wrong, since we will have established that saying "I know god" and actually knowing god are indistinguishable positions.

So your only choice is to dodge the questions I am posing.  But maybe you will surprise me.  So I'll ask them again, and see if you have the integrity to actually give direct answers.

Did the pagans genuinely know the Mother Goddess? 
Or did they get things all wrong? 
And how - at the time - could you have told the difference?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #306 on: March 21, 2014, 03:56:24 AM »
I am an atheist -- I don't know --> Theists do.

Theists CLAIM to - I can't believe you are still getting that so wrong!

Consider for a moment what you are saying - "theists know god".  What you are saying is that EVERY theist - from your New Age woo-woo merchants through the Muslims and Christians and Jews, the Ba'hai, the LaVeyan Satanists, the Druids, the worshippers of Zeus.....that each and every one of these people know god.

Despite them all saying that god is different.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #307 on: March 21, 2014, 08:14:40 AM »
Come on now it is free on the internet. No money to be lost or gained. At least tell me a truth. I do not do belief very well. Where is the crap in what they say? Remember there are things we do not know and we all accept that don't we? I am willing to accept I do not know how they know those things. But calling it crap because you fail to understand how they know does not sit very well with me. Tell me how you know it is crap?

Sorry dude, but you do belief extraordinarily well.  You believe any old bullsh*t.

You do not know how they know these things, but you just accept that they know these things.

You are a naïve little child.  You are a con artist's wet dream.
And you know this because of your being in that situation before?
Um...I know this because I'm in this situation now.

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Or you have that power to imagine and make stuff up?
Um...I do have that power.  I imagine and make stuff up a lot.  I have an imagination.  Lots of people do.

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How would  know when you know a truth to tell me it is true follow you cause I am stupid?
Um...yes.  No sugar, please.

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Why are you having such difficulty if what you say is true?
I dunno Jesuis.  Why am I having such a hard time conversing with you?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #308 on: March 21, 2014, 08:18:30 AM »
I am an atheist -- I don't know --> Theists do.

Theists CLAIM to - I can't believe you are still getting that so wrong!

He doesn't care.  He is pretty adamant that his bizarro-world definitions of the words 'atheist' and 'theist' are the only ones.  If that means he can only speak in gibberish, he's pretty fine with that.

Every sentient creature in reality, fantasy, and mythology could go up to him and tell him different and he'd just put his fingers in his ears and scream more woo.  Otherwise, he might have to have a meaningful conversation.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #309 on: March 21, 2014, 08:26:08 AM »
Guys, has Jeusis actually said he has any personal proof of any of this yet, or is he going to sell us his book for $9.95 ?
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #310 on: March 21, 2014, 08:31:27 AM »
Guys, has Jeusis actually said he has any personal proof of any of this yet

Oh no - no personal proof.  Just "these guys SAY they know god, so it MUST be true". 

I'm amazed he has the time to be on this site, what with all those Nigerian Princes he's helping shift money out of their country.  Not to mention all the pimply 17-year olds with no ID he's letting roam the house because they said they're from the Gas Company.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #311 on: March 21, 2014, 08:32:30 AM »
Guys, has Jeusis actually said he has any personal proof of any of this yet, or is he going to sell us his book for $9.95 ?

If he has, I'm sure it has something to do with 'frequency' and other arbitrarily capitalized words.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline wheels5894

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #312 on: March 21, 2014, 08:37:47 AM »
Guys, has Jeusis actually said he has any personal proof of any of this yet, or is he going to sell us his book for $9.95 ?

If he has, I'm sure it has something to do with 'frequency' and other arbitrarily capitalized words.

Well I'm not buying a book even at $9.95! I'm still waiting for him to define consciousness that can exist outwith a human brain. I've asked him this a lot of times without getting a proper answer. He has variously claimed that everything has consciousness as well as there being a 'universal consciousness' but I have no concept how this works and if there is any evidence of it.

Meanwhile this thread is getting rather tired as we are making no progress in discussion and just going round in circles. I reckon it's time Jesuis took on the debate challenge offer by One, I think. Perhaps a one on one style debate might be easier for him to keep up with.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online Graybeard

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #313 on: March 21, 2014, 09:51:01 AM »

As For kirpal singh comments -- "the golden age etc" -- can you say you know what he was talking about? I am still working on it. But your comments appear to have done the research and concluded -- have you?
Yes, both you and I can say that he is simply lying. We know of all civilisations. We know of the life-expectancy of man. We know that "a Golden age" would have lasted for many generations and therefore would have been around for many millions of years. There is no such civilisation, and there never was. Because human gestation is 9 months and if everyone lived for 100,000 years, then starting from 2 people (and ignoring in-breeding) every 20 years, the population would at least double. And this would go on for 100,000 years. There are not enough atoms in the universe for so many people.

OK, Jesuis, why do you even consider the possibility? Why do you not use your intelligence? Why are you "still working on it"? What was hard about the maths? Why ignore common sense?

Why do you think it is OK for us to believe what are basically lies, ignorance and superstition?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 10:24:15 AM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline JoeNobody

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #314 on: March 21, 2014, 10:17:53 AM »
Why are you having such difficulty if what you say is true?

Why don't you apply this question to yourself?

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #315 on: March 21, 2014, 11:33:09 AM »
Well then, shouldn't you stop acting like the lead designer then and simply say "I don't know"?
I did!
I am an atheist -- I don't know --> Theists do.

No.  You did not stop.  In your reply, you claim that Theists do know.  How do you know that Theists know?  You are acting like the lead designer again.  Why do you keep saying you know things when you don't?
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Nam

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #316 on: March 21, 2014, 12:10:56 PM »
Is it just me but does it seem Jesuis is using a playbook? He sticks to the main objective to get to the goal line but uses other plays to get there (always fumbling, though).

Maybe it's just me.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #317 on: March 21, 2014, 01:23:29 PM »
Is it just me but does it seem Jesuis is using a playbook? He sticks to the main objective to get to the goal line but uses other plays to get there (always fumbling, though).

Maybe it's just me.

-Nam

Yeah, I think he's using the "Disregard any and everything anyone says or responds with" playbook.  He'll post something, someone responds, he skims over the response looking for keywords that he uses to seed his random woo generator, and posts again.

He's essentially engaging in argumentative public masturbation.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Nam

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #318 on: March 21, 2014, 01:29:14 PM »
I wish he'd spew somewhere else.

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