Author Topic: What is consciousness? Theists say ...  (Read 6005 times)

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Offline stuffin

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2014, 10:50:43 PM »

Which came first; consciousness or the brain?
Consciousness.


Please convince me with indisputable evidence.
A tree does not have a brain.

That does not convince me conscious came first.

I wish you would stop trying to explain yourself using philosophical statements and start using facts.

Are you expecting us to get a message from the Lead Consciousness to help us understand your statements??
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline stuffin

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2014, 10:55:12 PM »

Which came first; consciousness or the brain?
Consciousness.
I will notify you when I find a more ridiculous conclusion.

So, out there (before brains or anything else to contain consciousness) consciousness sort of "floated about" looking for a home? And then there were brains, and suddenly all the consciousness went into them...

Yes, well good luck trying to convince someone of that.

I think they did that on an episode of Futurama.     ;D
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 11:00:31 PM by stuffin »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2014, 01:31:24 AM »
A nervous system is the hardware that signals travel on to reach the brain. I can take a dead man and send signals to his brain. It does not make him conscious.
No, you can't actually talk to a dead man and have signals go to his brain (unless he is very, very freshly dead).  The point of being dead is that the biological pathways that make life possible (including nerve cells) have stopped working, and the brain has ceased to function.  If they still worked, he wouldn't be dead.  In short, your presumption - that we have 'consciousness' that allows us to recognize other 'consciousness' and the lack of 'consciousness' (in dead/nonliving things) - is completely indistinguishable from the biological definitions of living and nonliving things, which means that it's a totally useless distinction.

Can you even point to something that you can identify as consciousness, Jesuis?  Because you haven't identified anything like that, not even once, and that makes your whole line of reasoning questionable - and you don't really have any answers.

Science is based on our conscious observations, we do everything based on our conscious awareness. We observe life as conscious. We have created an evolutionary tree of life. Please feel free to use it.
Then why isn't there any evidence of this "consciousness energy" or whatever it is that you keep referring to?  You keep talking about consciousness as if it's something separate from life and that can exist without life, yet the evidence doesn't support that.  What the evidence does support is that consciousness is nothing more complicated than the state of awareness created by having senses.  In other words, it's the senses that produce consciousness; consciousness is an inevitable byproduct of having senses in the first place.  There's no evidence to support consciousness being outside and separate from life; indeed, if it were, there would be no special reason that you couldn't have nonliving things that were somehow conscious.

Even you've acknowledged that consciousness doesn't exist unless something is alive.  Yet you keep insisting on this "universal consciousness" or whatever it is, and that all living things have small fragments of this greater consciousness.  Except if that were the case, what happens to those little bits of consciousness when something dies?  If what you say has any bearing on reality, consciousness should be separate from the state of being alive, and we should be able to detect "consciousness energy" that is not connected to living things as it passes from them.  Even if people cannot directly sense it, we should still be able to pick up on it using scientific instrumentation - given that we can and have detected other things that are impossible for human senses to pick up.  That being the case, there is no reason for consciousness energy to only be associated with living things, and to somehow vanish as it leaves a living thing only to reappear as it arrives at the "universal consciousness".  It should be detectable as it goes between those two things.  Yet we have never once detected anything like that anywhere, and we can't detect anything special about living things that would suggest the existence of "consciousness energy".  In short, there is simply no reason to conclude that it exists until we find real evidence that shows that it exists - and 'theists' who create religions do not count as evidence.

Quote from: Jesuis
Yes! But we observe it as devoid of life. We did not put it on the tree. Any biologist or scientist will tell you that. Your critical thinking is in over drive.
Actually, you are quite wrong.  There are multitudes of microscopic life forms in every single breath of air that we take.  It is absolutely not "devoid of life".  Meaning, if we could detect consciousness, we would pick it up all around us, in the teeming multitudes of bacterial organisms that cover every square millimeter of available surface and fill every cubic millimeter of available space (whether water, air, or 'solid' ground).  Indeed, these life-forms went totally unrecognized as even existing, never mind us being able to tell whether they were alive or conscious, for thousands of years, until we learned how to make microscopes that would allow us to see things that small.  It certainly doesn't support the idea of being able to recognize consciousness in other things.

Quote from: Jesuis
We humans have the same tool. I am not saying something to you that you cannot observe for yourself. See the evolutionary tree of life.
The evolutionary tree of life has nothing to do with consciousness and everything to do with how life-forms are related to each other.  Indeed, until fairly recently, the presumption was that consciousness was limited to humans and other relatively large animals.  Your idea that all life has some kind of consciousness is at least somewhat intriguing (at least hypothetically), but until you find evidence to support it, there's simply no point in assuming it exists or anything else.  That's why science requires evidence, because we have to rule out ideas that simply aren't worth considering somehow.

Online bertatberts

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2014, 03:02:24 AM »
From  the locked thread "Theist know god, and atheist don't" it was locked for a very good reason, to this thread. Nothing has changed. Just more ramblings of a nutjob, He is still giving no quarter, still just as arrogant, still pushing his agenda and we all play to his whims. "Give me a break".

Addenum: I can tell you what unconsciousness is, it goes by the name of Jesuis. It sounds like he aspire to become mentally handicapped. He would rather gaze in wonderment at the invisible barriers on the bus than have the intellectual capacity to identify them as windows.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:54:14 AM by bertatberts »
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Offline penfold

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2014, 05:50:57 AM »
A tree does not have a brain.

Are you saying that a tree is conscious?
Not just trees - I am saying all life is conscious.

This is brilliant. In the face of this awesome revelation I have some questions:


If I am knocked unconscious am I dead?
Is going to sleep a form of suicide?
At what point does a strawberry cease to be conscious? When its picked? When its eaten?
What about a virus? Is that only conscious inside a cell?
Is organic chemistry semi-conscious?
Are my organs conscious?
Do siphonophores[1] suffer from multiple personality disorders?
Is colonic irrigation a form of genocide?
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphonophorae
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:54:30 AM by penfold »
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline penfold

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2014, 05:52:21 AM »
oops double post  :-[
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Online Graybeard

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2014, 06:30:21 AM »
What is this "different angle"? How do we know this view is true? Do they have another part of the brain to do this or do they have a different brain to ordinary people?
When we examine their lives we can see what they did whether it was based on lower or higher consciousness. Our consciousness can tell the acts of someone with higher or lower consciousness. We use our conscious awareness all the time to navigate our way around the world.

Quote
Look, jesuis, what you do not seem to understand is that humans can train their brain to be efficient at various tasks: they also can train their brain to be irrational, to see visions, etc.
I can't train mine to respond to your questions accurately. Why should I accept what you say?

Quote
Have you ever considered, say, a great artist? Why can he paint pictures better than you? Probably because he has practised for years and his neurons are trained so that he can control the brush, identify the shades and colours, imagine great scenes.
Yes but you have problems with the accuracy of this statement. If you were sure then someone like me can say thats right. I can do that too. But you indicate you have no clue so it becomes word salad not so. Probably this and probably that is not telling me anything that you know.

Quote
So it is with these people you mention. The start by thinking something that is not proven. Then they start to get obsessed by it, then they spend years imagining that they have found the "final answer!" They train their brain, but they do not train it correctly. Nothing any of those you mentioned can be tested, or if it can, it is blindingly obvious.
Can you do it?

Quote
Mystic idiots have been entertaining people since the dawn of mankind - telling stories that they are convinced are correct. If you really want some answer, go and study evolution and evolutionary advantage, have a look at psychology and psychiatry, read some history - they all explain a lot and you don't have to believe in an invisible sky-pixie who poofs things into existence and orders nations destroyed.
Lets not do that. You know nothing about mystics.
I know more about mystics than you have forgotten. They are people who sit in darkened rooms without any data and arrive at a conclusion that has no basis in fact. All of them are wrong. But, the gullible out there support them because the gullible can't or don't want to think for themselves, and so instead, they latch on to the first idea that seems plausible. The gullible are most impressed by ranting people with long hair and scant regard for personal hygiene.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Consciousness is a by-product of evolution.

This is basically a reply to jesuis and his total amazement with “consciousness” which he thinks is a mysterious, ethereal substance that pervades the universe and (against all logic) can exist on “its own”.

The following is not complete but the broad outline. The Wiki Article on the brainWiki is a good starting point, and I have taken some of the following from it.

OK: explaining consciousness:

Plants and trees have a system of phototropism and geotropism: the upper part is drawn towards light and the root-system down into the earth. It does not matter if a seed falls the right way up or upside down, the sprout for the roots goes down and the sprout for the tree itself goes up.

Primitive creatures, such as bacteria, insects, etc., are attracted or repelled by heat, light, moisture, etc. They have evolved to the extent that this involuntary compulsion will allow them to find protection and food.

A dog, when given a certain stimulus, will wag its tail. A frog and a cat will both find themselves compelled to chase/catch something small that moves. The difference is that the frog will snap at anything that moves like a bug, whereas a cat will make a decision based upon what it sees.

In the case of a frog, it is not a conscious decision. In the case of the plants, it is a chemical function. In insects, it is sensitive cells that do the job independent of anything that the insect might be better off doing[1].

All that is required for the bodily functions to cause the creature a successful existence and life is contained within the cerebrum of reptiles and fish. The surface of the cerebrum is lined with the pallium. The pallium gives the creature some very small ability to learn and adapt.

In mammals, the pallium evolves into the far more complex neocortex, the hippocampus and amygdale.

The superior colliculus, which plays a major role in visual control of behaviour in most vertebrates[2] , shrinks to a small size in mammals, and many of its functions are taken over by visual areas of the cerebral cortex[3]. The cerebellum of mammals contains a large portion (the neocerebellum) dedicated to supporting the cerebral cortex, which has no counterpart in other vertebrates.

When we come to mankind, we see that the primate brain comes from a massive expansion of the cerebral cortex, especially the prefrontal cortex and the parts of the cortex involved in vision.

The prefrontal cortex carries out functions that include planning, working memory, motivation, attention, and executive control. It takes up a much larger proportion of the brain for primates than for other species, and an especially large fraction of the human brain.

So we now see that, particularly primates[4] have two distinct parts to the brain. One that, like the lesser creatures, controls the autonomic nervous system and over which we have little control, and the greater system that allows us to be fully aware of our surroundings – even unimportant parts – and react according to individual circumstances. It is the effects of this greater part that we call consciousness/the conscious.

When you look at history and the founders of religion, none of them knew any of this. They did not know it as dissection of human bodies was not allowed for religious reasons. They never thought to experiment. They observed common traits and, where they could not explain certain behaviours, they said, “God did it.”

We have moved on from this point. We have done the right thing. The god of the gaps has retreated. We know what consciousness is and why it came about and no gods are involved.



 
 1. see how moths are drawn to a flame, but birds that might navigate by the sun are not
 2. it is the lack of this that causes lesser creatures to simply react without thought
 3. It is this that allows mammals to make judgements: to reason what it is they see and how they should best deal with circumstances
 4. and a few other species -> dolphin are a good example
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 06:37:50 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline penfold

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2014, 08:02:02 AM »


Consciousness is a by-product of evolution.

...

OK: explaining consciousness:

Plants and trees have a system of phototropism and geotropism: ... All that is required for the bodily functions to cause the creature a successful existence and life is contained within the cerebrum of reptiles and fish ... In mammals, the pallium evolves into the far more complex neocortex, the hippocampus and amygdale. .... The cerebellum of mammals contains a large portion (the neocerebellum) dedicated to supporting the cerebral cortex, which has no counterpart in other vertebrates. ... The prefrontal cortex carries out functions that include planning, working memory, motivation, attention, and executive control. It takes up a much larger proportion of the brain for primates than for other species, and an especially large fraction of the human brain.

While I do not doubt this story in terms of the evolution of the brain I don't think it is fair to assume that this constitutes a complete answer to the question what is consciousness?

Any neurological account will, of course be entirely objective, whereas, if consciousness is anything it is the subjective quality of experience. Thus any objective account will not be a full account. I am not saying that the scientific, causal, explanation of consciousness is wrong, merely that there are meaningful sentences which cannot fully be analysed scientifically (eg "I feel happy")

Which bring me onto mystics.

I think you are far too hasty in dismissing them. The mystic is not attempting to 'gather data', again that is to confuse the subjective with the objective. Rather the mystic is trying to understand what it means to be.

Much mysticism is coloured by religious metaphysics, but what is interesting about the mystic is how little interest they tend to have in metaphysical schemes. The religious mystic is never attempting to prove the factual nature of God, but rather outline the experience of God.

Moreover there are plenty of examples of people who have also investigated the subjective quality of existence in a manner which is mystical, without invoking a divine metaphysic such as the Chinese mystic Chuang-tzu.

If you personally find no value in mystical writings that is entirely fair but to dismiss them as non-factual is to entirely miss the point. They do not aim to be factual but provide an 'ethic' (as in way of being not merely way of being moral).



« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 08:08:16 AM by penfold »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2014, 08:51:57 AM »
Jesuis, you began this thread by saying:

What is consciousness?
Modern day Theists say (consciousness) is a divine spark of spiritual conscious energy that comes from God.

Indeed they do.  Commonly they call it a soul.  I don't disagree that this is indeed what they say.  We gave some responses, and you came back to say:

You know if you are going to claim that there is no God the least you can do is to try to chip at the source of their trump card. And you turn up with nothing.

Initially I responded to ask:

Since YOU are an atheist, why don't you start us off?  What's YOUR best argument against souls?

But I've since realised I wasn't being specific enough. 

You said that "Theists say (consciousness) ..... comes from God"  So when you chastised us for failing to "chip at the source of their trump card", your point - presumably - was that we should be denying the "comes from God" part of their claim.  And yet.....we have been sucked downalternate routes interminable pages.

So let's backtrack.  The three possible statements are:
1) Consciousness is a divine spark of spiritual ... energy that comes from God (the Theist statement)
2) Consciousness is a legitimate phenomenum that arises through some non-supernatural fashion
3) Consciousness is a convincing but nonetheless illusionary phenomenon that we appear to posess.

2 and 3 could both be described as atheist viewpoints.

Could you first confirm please, whether you feel 2 or 3 most accurately descibes your own position?  And then - having done so - let US know what YOU believe is the best piece of evidence that supports 2 or 3 (or opposes 1).

Because, as atheists all together, you are right - we need to be challenging the "from god" part of the theist claim, rather than the "consciousness" part.  So lead us off.  What route do you think we should be following to counter the "from god" part of their claim?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline JoeNobody

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2014, 11:30:12 AM »
What about a protozoa?
All life is conscious.
Consider the following: Viruses, Amino acids, DNA, RNA, long carbohydrate chains. Are any of them conscious?

Also, can you give me an example of a consciousness that isn't alive? 

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2014, 11:48:51 AM »
I will notify you when I find a more ridiculous conclusion.

So, out there (before brains or anything else to contain consciousness) consciousness sort of "floated about" looking for a home? And then there were brains, and suddenly all the consciousness went into them...

Yes, well good luck trying to convince someone of that.

I think they did that on an episode of Futurama.     ;D

It would behoove us to always remember that the Scooty Puff Jr. sucks.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2014, 12:01:05 PM »
oops double post  :-[

That's OK..."colonic irrigation as a form of genocide" would have been worth reading twice :D

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2014, 06:11:34 PM »
What about a protozoa?
All life is conscious.
Consider the following: Viruses, Amino acids, DNA, RNA, long carbohydrate chains. Are any of them conscious?

Also, can you give me an example of a consciousness that isn't alive?

God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #100 on: March 06, 2014, 06:17:05 PM »
God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.

So your god is not alive!

I have to admit that no one can make it up like you do.
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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #101 on: March 06, 2014, 06:21:30 PM »
God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.

So your god is not alive!

I have to admit that no one can make it up like you do.

Oh what feeble minds we have on here sometimes.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #102 on: March 06, 2014, 06:27:38 PM »
oops double post  :-[

That's OK..."colonic irrigation as a form of genocide" would have been worth reading twice :D

God never committed genocide. Look up the definition of genocide and then retract your false claim.
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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #103 on: March 06, 2014, 06:28:41 PM »
God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.

So your god is not alive!

I have to admit that no one can make it up like you do.

Oh what feeble minds we have on here sometimes.

And Peter said to Jesus

"You are the messiah the son of the living god" Matthew 16:16

What was that you said about knowing deceivers by using the bible.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #104 on: March 06, 2014, 06:32:55 PM »
God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.

So your god is not alive!

I have to admit that no one can make it up like you do.

Oh what feeble minds we have on here sometimes.

And Peter said to Jesus

"You are the messiah the son of the living god" Matthew 16:16

What was that you said about knowing deceivers by using the bible.

Yes, the spirit of God inhabited the flesh/body.

Imagine my soul going into your body and your soul into mine. People who knew us would recognize that we switched souls.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2014, 06:37:18 PM »

Are you saying that a tree is conscious?
Not just trees - I am saying all life is conscious.

What about an protozoa?
All life is conscious.

What about all the bacteria in that stinky pile you dropped this morning?
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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2014, 06:38:12 PM »
God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.

So your god is not alive!

I have to admit that no one can make it up like you do.

Oh what feeble minds we have on here sometimes.

And Peter said to Jesus

"You are the messiah the son of the living god" Matthew 16:16

What was that you said about knowing deceivers by using the bible.

Yes, the spirit of God inhabited the flesh/body.

Imagine my soul going into your body and your soul into mine. People who knew us would recognize that we switched souls.

You know that is not what it means. Psalm 42:2 "my soul thirsts for god, the living god"
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2014, 06:45:13 PM »
God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.

So your god is not alive!

I have to admit that no one can make it up like you do.

Oh what feeble minds we have on here sometimes.

And Peter said to Jesus

"You are the messiah the son of the living god" Matthew 16:16

What was that you said about knowing deceivers by using the bible.

Yes, the spirit of God inhabited the flesh/body.

Imagine my soul going into your body and your soul into mine. People who knew us would recognize that we switched souls.

You know that is not what it means. Psalm 42:2 "my soul thirsts for god, the living god"


What is the historical context of that verse?  It's a metaphor. Nobody knew that things could be conscious without being alive back then.

It was an easy word used for a description.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2014, 06:48:23 PM »
oops double post  :-[

That's OK..."colonic irrigation as a form of genocide" would have been worth reading twice :D

God never committed genocide. Look up the definition of genocide and then retract your false claim.

I think we're gonna need a little clarification here. What part of killing everyone in the world but Noah and his family disqualifies him? I'm sure you have a great excuse, but I don't have he vivid imagination to match it.

Please semi-enlighten us.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2014, 06:50:33 PM »
oops double post  :-[

That's OK..."colonic irrigation as a form of genocide" would have been worth reading twice :D

God never committed genocide. Look up the definition of genocide and then retract your false claim.

I think we're gonna need a little clarification here. What part of killing everyone in the world but Noah and his family disqualifies him? I'm sure you have a great excuse, but I don't have he vivid imagination to match it.

Please semi-enlighten us.

The creator and designer of human life can do what He wants to His creations.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2014, 06:51:57 PM »
God is conscious, but not alive. Just like we will be in the next life.

So your god is not alive!

I have to admit that no one can make it up like you do.

Oh what feeble minds we have on here sometimes.

And Peter said to Jesus

"You are the messiah the son of the living god" Matthew 16:16

What was that you said about knowing deceivers by using the bible.

Yes, the spirit of God inhabited the flesh/body.

Imagine my soul going into your body and your soul into mine. People who knew us would recognize that we switched souls.

You know that is not what it means. Psalm 42:2 "my soul thirsts for god, the living god"


What is the historical context of that verse?  It's a metaphor. Nobody knew that things could be conscious without being alive back then.

It was an easy word used for a description.

I have given quotes for a living god from both the NT and the OT.

This is what you said a few days ago.


I just told you how you could weed out the deceivers: Use the Bible.


Your demon is controlling your mind, trying to twist words and make excuses. You know what you said contradicts the bible.
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Offline voodoo child

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2014, 07:24:47 PM »
Consciousness  Is developed very early and its done all your own.

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2014, 07:40:43 PM »
God never committed genocide. Look up the definition of genocide and then retract your false claim.

I think we're gonna need a little clarification here. What part of killing everyone in the world but Noah and his family disqualifies him? I'm sure you have a great excuse, but I don't have he vivid imagination to match it.

Please semi-enlighten us.

The creator and designer of human life can do what He wants to His creations.

No...no way you actually believe this.  No f*cking way.

You are not this bad of a human being.  You simply cannot be.  I refuse to believe that.  This is so damn callous that it is more believable, based on my personal experience of interaction with other human beings, that you are just plain lying than to believe that you are this twisted.

For crying out loud skeptic54768 - THIS IS F*CKED UP.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2014, 07:54:31 PM »
The creator and designer of human life can do what He wants to His creations.

So I assume you have an acceptable word to use to describe what he did to the human population when he flooded the planet. If not, you need to make one up, otherwise you have an incomplete fiction.

By the way, if he actually is real, let me know so I can flip him off for killing everyone. By my obviously inferior human standards, that as a shitty thing to do.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2014, 08:00:49 PM »

Which came first; consciousness or the brain?
Consciousness.


Please convince me with indisputable evidence.
A tree does not have a brain.

That does not convince me conscious came first.

I wish you would stop trying to explain yourself using philosophical statements and start using facts.

Are you expecting us to get a message from the Lead Consciousness to help us understand your statements??
Please -- I have answered your questions. What are you now asking for -- An evolutionary tree??
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is consciousness? Theists say ...
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2014, 08:10:08 PM »
What is this "different angle"? How do we know this view is true? Do they have another part of the brain to do this or do they have a different brain to ordinary people?
When we examine their lives we can see what they did whether it was based on lower or higher consciousness. Our consciousness can tell the acts of someone with higher or lower consciousness. We use our conscious awareness all the time to navigate our way around the world.

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Look, jesuis, what you do not seem to understand is that humans can train their brain to be efficient at various tasks: they also can train their brain to be irrational, to see visions, etc.
I can't train mine to respond to your questions accurately. Why should I accept what you say?

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Have you ever considered, say, a great artist? Why can he paint pictures better than you? Probably because he has practised for years and his neurons are trained so that he can control the brush, identify the shades and colours, imagine great scenes.
Yes but you have problems with the accuracy of this statement. If you were sure then someone like me can say thats right. I can do that too. But you indicate you have no clue so it becomes word salad not so. Probably this and probably that is not telling me anything that you know.

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So it is with these people you mention. The start by thinking something that is not proven. Then they start to get obsessed by it, then they spend years imagining that they have found the "final answer!" They train their brain, but they do not train it correctly. Nothing any of those you mentioned can be tested, or if it can, it is blindingly obvious.
Can you do it?

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Mystic idiots have been entertaining people since the dawn of mankind - telling stories that they are convinced are correct. If you really want some answer, go and study evolution and evolutionary advantage, have a look at psychology and psychiatry, read some history - they all explain a lot and you don't have to believe in an invisible sky-pixie who poofs things into existence and orders nations destroyed.
Lets not do that. You know nothing about mystics.
I know more about mystics than you have forgotten. They are people who sit in darkened rooms without any data and arrive at a conclusion that has no basis in fact. All of them are wrong. But, the gullible out there support them because the gullible can't or don't want to think for themselves, and so instead, they latch on to the first idea that seems plausible. The gullible are most impressed by ranting people with long hair and scant regard for personal hygiene.
As I said you do not know anything about mystic. This is for you to do the critical thinking. How do you know.... Did you read this in some sort of propaganda. Name a modern day mystic that we can verify that he is sitting in a cave as you say. Where is he who is he and what is he doing -- because you know. My critical thinking leads me to ask why should I believe you know? And everything you say after that sounds like you have dreamed it all up. Based on false thinking. Facts please. How do you know these mystics - have you spent any time with them?

According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.