Author Topic: I'm finally addressing this question  (Read 1056 times)

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Offline junebug72

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I'm finally addressing this question
« on: March 02, 2014, 08:00:37 AM »
If there is a God I don't think it magically heals anybody.  I don't think that God doesn't love me because I got cancer.  Even though in my heart I prayed that I wouldn't.  I'm sure we all feel that way.  I believe we are all healed once we give up the flesh.

Is it painful, I'd say so, for the one that's dying most definitely.  For the ones left behind, very much so emotionally.  W/o death we'd have over populated the planet IDK maybe 100 years maybe 2 thousand years ago.  I'm not a mathematician. 

If there is life after death I see no evil in dying but an excitement for the person going to it.  Grief is reserved for the ones left behind because an important part of our life is now gone.

No doubt that people overcoming their handicaps are inspirational to us all.  It can be used as an advantage.  It's all about attitude.  I could bitch and moan about developing cancer but I choose not to because mind over matter is a proven fact; ex. fire walkers.

No disease can take your happiness unless you let it.  Don't take it personal.  That's my motto.  I read a Chicken Soup book for breast cancer and at the end it says you can not occupy my spirit, you can not invade my soul.  The same is true for amputees.

Much Love and compassion for anybody here that is handicapped.

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 02:30:42 PM »
I am glad that you are trying to have a positive attitude about the things that have happened to you. It has been shown scientifically that being positive can help in healing.

However it does not follow that there is a purpose or a larger point to suffering. The universe is trying to kill us--no warmth, air, water or food in most of it-- and nobody out there seems to care. The earth is trying to kill us--survival is a constant struggle-- and nobody out there seems to care. That is the reality.

You have to try to reconcile the really big contradiction of a loving powerful being and all the suffering that exists. It is not an easy thing to get your mind around and has had people arguing about it for as long as there have been people. If homo habilis could speak, they would have been arguing about it too. The ancient philosophers discussed the problem of evil, the Hindus decided that you got a better deal in a next life, etc. You have to make up some convoluted argument that really does not make any sense.

Because nobody can make sense of a powerful and loving being having people, children, babies, animals, etc suffer for no apparent point.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 05:55:59 AM »
I am glad that you are trying to have a positive attitude about the things that have happened to you. It has been shown scientifically that being positive can help in healing.

However it does not follow that there is a purpose or a larger point to suffering. The universe is trying to kill us--no warmth, air, water or food in most of it-- and nobody out there seems to care. The earth is trying to kill us--survival is a constant struggle-- and nobody out there seems to care. That is the reality.

You have to try to reconcile the really big contradiction of a loving powerful being and all the suffering that exists. It is not an easy thing to get your mind around and has had people arguing about it for as long as there have been people. If homo habilis could speak, they would have been arguing about it too. The ancient philosophers discussed the problem of evil, the Hindus decided that you got a better deal in a next life, etc. You have to make up some convoluted argument that really does not make any sense.

Because nobody can make sense of a powerful and loving being having people, children, babies, animals, etc suffer for no apparent point.

With exception to viruses, bacteria, and natural disaster the suffering in this world is self inflicted.  I'm talking about mankind as a whole not individuality.

See all that stuff is negative thinking NoGods.  I'm a positive thinker.  When I think of the dangers in this world I see us surviving regardless.  That makes me think it is likely there is a protector.  I don't see it likely we are just that darn lucky.

I look at it like this.  The older my son gets the more I expect him to take care of himself.  I have given him knowledge.  It's up to him now at 24 to act upon that knowledge.  I can not force him.  I have to let him choose his own path.  That's love.  Being a control freak is not love.

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 11:11:04 AM »
See all that stuff is negative thinking NoGods.  I'm a positive thinker.  When I think of the dangers in this world I see us surviving regardless.  That makes me think it is likely there is a protector.  I don't see it likely we are just that darn lucky.

How do you mean "lucky?"

Quote
I look at it like this.  The older my son gets the more I expect him to take care of himself.  I have given him knowledge.  It's up to him now at 24 to act upon that knowledge.  I can not force him.  I have to let him choose his own path.  That's love.  Being a control freak is not love.

JB

You were an active participant in your son's upbringing, causing a positive affect in his life, protecting him when you deemed necessary, letting him feel a bit of pain when that was more apporpriate...right?

I think the issue is that you're giving credit to some invisible intangible incomprehensible being for doing the same thing--when he/she/it clearly does not.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 12:06:10 PM by screwtape »
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 06:18:20 AM »
See all that stuff is negative thinking NoGods.  I'm a positive thinker.  When I think of the dangers in this world I see us surviving regardless.  That makes me think it is likely there is a protector.  I don't see it likely we are just that darn lucky.

How do you mean "lucky?"

Quote
I look at it like this.  The older my son gets the more I expect him to take care of himself.  I have given him knowledge.  It's up to him now at 24 to act upon that knowledge.  I can not force him.  I have to let him choose his own path.  That's love.  Being a control freak is not love.

JB

You were an active participant in your son's upbringing, causing a positive affect in his life, protecting him when you deemed necessary, letting him feel a bit of pain when that was more apporpriate...right?

I think the issue is that you're giving credit to some invisible intangible incomprehensible being for doing the same thing--when he/she/it clearly does not.

The point here is that once my son was grown and I had given him the tools necessary to survive on his own I expect him to do so.  I don't believe the first humans were infants incapable of self care.

If the being was incomprehensible then it would not have ever been comprehended.  I don't know that God is a being.  Maybe God is energy, IDK.

Energy is the source of life; to my knowledge.

You may not have experienced the comfort that belief can give but I have many times.  I could have been designed to self medicate or something helped, IDK.  I don't think I'd be alive today without that comfort.

Mostly I turned to God because my friends, loved ones, and society let me down.  W/o belief in God I would have nothing to calm the troubled waters of my soul Boots.

Joy,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 07:39:04 AM »
It makes me very sad when family and friends don't rally round to help someone with their life problems. It even makes one wonder if they really are friends.  Yet, really, June is it actually another being (god) that helped you or was it your own will to conquer your disease and recover?

See, the thing is that the whole world - and we the latecomers to the party - is based on things eating other things. So whether it is fungus, the only thing that can break down wood, to viruses that kill us, it is all part of the way the natural world works. There's vast numbers of connections between animals and plants that eat each other and it is how the world is. Each species has survived because it lives long enough to breed and create a new generation, even if that means that later life is cut shor by things like cancers and other diseases. This being the case, where is god in all this?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Boots

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2014, 08:51:23 AM »
The point here is that once my son was grown and I had given him the tools necessary to survive on his own I expect him to do so.  I don't believe the first humans were infants incapable of self care.

If the being was incomprehensible then it would not have ever been comprehended.  I don't know that God is a being.  Maybe God is energy, IDK.

Energy is the source of life; to my knowledge.

You may not have experienced the comfort that belief can give but I have many times.  I could have been designed to self medicate or something helped, IDK.  I don't think I'd be alive today without that comfort.

Mostly I turned to God because my friends, loved ones, and society let me down.  W/o belief in God I would have nothing to calm the troubled waters of my soul Boots.

Joy,

JB

I think Wheels reiterated my point better than I did--that you're giving a god the credit, when the credit really belongs to you. *shrug*

you have my sympathies that your support network was not what it should have been.

for the record, I have, in fact, experienced the comfort of belief (mainly during the time I watched my mother die of cancer).  I have since learned that that belief was ill-placed and unnecessary, as I did not require it to comfort me when my brother took his own life.  I believe in myself, and in my children, and my wife.  Our love and strength of spirit is enough to see us through.  (no gods required)
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 11:09:08 AM »
Viruses, bacteria and natural disasters (all placed there by the loving god-being) have caused much of humanity's suffering, historically, especially if you include crop failures due to swarms of insects or burning drought, freezing winters that caused communities to run out of food, and coastal floods that drown people.

Most of the planet--over 75%-- has either too much water, too little water or the wrong kind of water for human survival. Humans did not "self-inflict" the we-can't-drink-salt-water problem.

Nobody "self-inflicted" the massive epidemics of plague or smallpox that killed millions over the centuries. Communities used to routinely bury the latest batch of  babies and children each year from diseases.

That is the way the world was, and would still be if not for humans solving problems with science. We know that because it is still that way in places where people don't have access to sanitation, vaccines and other modern medicine, etc. That's not "negative thinking". I did not make up those facts. Negative thinking would be assuming that a powerful god-being made the world the way it is, life mostly sucks because that god-being wants it to, and there is nothing humans can do about it. 

Click on the graph here and see when population growth really took off. Hint: about the same time global vaccination and sanitation campaigns meant that more people survived childhood and lived long enough to have kids of their own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth

So, you have to conclude that the loving god being did not really care about all those dead babies and children until the swinging 1960's. Furthermore, the loving god being could not be buggered to put clean drinkable water and good soil everywhere. He had to make climate patterns so extreme that lots of people would die just from the weather! On top of all that, he had to design a planet with sliding continental plates that destroy towns and kill people. Then, he puts greed and other weaknesses and frailties into people, just for snicks.

Since god never explains anything in any clear format, many people will try to maintain the idea that god is good, and everyone will blame each other for all the things that go wrong.  Hilarity will ensue as desperate people fight over scarce water, food and land resources. Now all god has to do is sit back and watch the fun!

Very loving. Maybe this being has a different definition of love from most people? More of a "smack everyone down really hard a zillion times, and see who gets up" cruel hatred kind of "love"?  &)

Or, you can conclude that loving magic beings have nothing to do with any of this, and we have to make the best of it we can, because that it is just the way the universe rolls. Positive, realistic thinking. Hmmm. Which one makes more sense?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 01:38:00 PM »
Quote
Or, you can conclude that loving magic beings have nothing to do with any of this, and we have to make the best of it we can, because that it is just the way the universe rolls. Positive, realistic thinking. Hmmm. Which one makes more sense?


^^Yes correct amondo^^

I said with the exception of...natural disasters and viruses.

I don't believe in a "supernatural god".  I believe God must also operate within the limits of this physical world.  I believe that God used the laws of physics to create life.

Joy,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 02:04:51 PM »
Quote
Or, you can conclude that loving magic beings have nothing to do with any of this, and we have to make the best of it we can, because that it is just the way the universe rolls. Positive, realistic thinking. Hmmm. Which one makes more sense?


^^Yes correct amondo^^

I said with the exception of...natural disasters and viruses.

I don't believe in a "supernatural god".  I believe God must also operate within the limits of this physical world.  I believe that God used the laws of physics to create life.

Joy,

JB

So, let me be clear--I'm not trying to bait or mock you here, I'm trying to understand you...

Why do you need god?

Are you *so* unwilling to grant yourself the props for overcoming your formidable life obstacles on your own, that you need to ascribe the willpower to a deity?
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 04:46:57 PM »
I have the same questions for any oppressed person or group:

Isn't that great loving being to blame when you are having trouble? Or does it only become "awesomely all-powerful" when the worse is already over?

Why don't you give yourself the credit for survival or escape? If you are going to thank the supreme being for the good stuff, at least let it take some cursing for getting you in the mess to begin with. (Thanks, Jehovah.)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 05:17:12 PM »
I have the same questions for any oppressed person or group:

Isn't that great loving being to blame when you are having trouble? Or does it only become "awesomely all-powerful" when the worse is already over?

Why don't you give yourself the credit for survival or escape? If you are going to thank the supreme being for the good stuff, at least let it take some cursing for getting you in the mess to begin with. (Thanks, Jehovah.)

I think you have it here - anyone who worships a god must curse that god for the evil he allows as well as praise him when things go well. By far the majority of theists let god off the hook for the bad things in life based on human nature, Satan and anything else, that lets their god off the hook. So far as I am concerned, a loving god who let's bad things happen to people has to carry the can for his forgetfulness (being charitable to gods!). Its that or Epicurius will pop out and say -

[quote
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?[1]
[/quote]
 1. Epicurus [341–270 B.C.] Greek philosopher
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Jag

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 05:47:24 PM »
I don't believe in a "supernatural god".  I believe God must also operate within the limits of this physical world.  I believe that God used the laws of physics to create life.

Yes, and here's the thing jb, despite our sincere best efforts, none of us can figure out WHY. I'm absolutely serious - I cannot for the life of me figure out how you can possibly believe in the god you've talked about. I know you really do believe - I'm not trying to imply that you're being insincere or whatever - I just can't figure out WHY, and I strongly suspect that most of the others who are trying to make sense of it would agree.

I don't expect you to try to explain why - it's got to be roughly on par with asking why water is wet, I understand it enough to get that much. And it's not just you, for the record. The current litterbugs are not confusing to me at all - I understand well enough why they believe what they claim. But a few of you, I just can't understand why you believe what you tell us you believe.

I guess once you step away, there's just no going back. I'm sure I believed just as much as the typical christian actually does - absent-mindedly most of the time, quite sincerely on occasion, but certainly not with enough ... intensity? ... to engage in any sort of ongoing debate about it after maybe 6th or 7th grade. I pretty much dismissed organized religion by then but still believed in some ill-defined entity of some sort. Non-participating was the extent of my commitment - people had clearly f'ed up whatever Jesus was trying to tell them, because no way in hell did the God of the bible make sense if the message was something about love.

Notice that we're in agreement to this point? It just occurred to me that this is about where we specifically diverge - on whether or not an involved god is possible. I suppose I'm probably an agnostic if I really understand what that means - I'm open to the idea of some sort of something or other that did something way back in the instant of the creation of the universe, but I stress this qualifier - if that's the case it's beyond the ability of humans to make sense of it, AND, if that's the case, whatever it is has been somewhere else doing something else since that instant - there is no evidence that I can accept (empirical is a requirement for me) to indicate any sort of participating higher power type of entity. And although I allow for the possibility I think it so unlikely that I see no need to bother with it.

If I've tracked your beliefs correctly, you DO believe in a participating God, right? One that takes an active role in your life and well-being? That's the part I can't figure out - how you retain that specific belief.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 06:02:52 PM »
^^^^Yes, especially when the old problem of evil crops up. Either god himself gives  cancer, or somehow can't do anything about cancer. So god is bad or god is pointless.

Only way around this is to try to find some positive message or good outcome in god giving us cancer.....makes for some really stupid sounding arguments. :P

If you don't--for whatever reason-- think cancer is bad, substitute rabies or the Kardashians or whatever bad thing you want.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2014, 08:21:22 PM »
I have cursed God many times.  Why I screamed?  Am I being punished for another life I know nothing about, what is it? It's right after that the answer comes. 

Maybe it's not a god maybe it is my belief all by itself, IDK.  I could almost claim to be an agnostic atheist but I am an agnostic theist.  I don't see much of a difference.

I also want to spend an eternity with my loved ones.  TR, my son, grandson, and DIL.  Mom and dad too.  I want that for us all. 

Explosions are messy and I don't believe it created this life supporting planet all by it's self.  This planet has survived in a very hostile environment for billions of years.  While here on earth I don't have to worry too much about it.

I would mostly say it has much to do with my hopeless romantic attitude. 

It does comfort me.

God/my belief was there when no one else was.

I do not worship.  I thank God I'm alive and for my family and friends but I do not worship.  I am not religious.

Joy,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2014, 08:54:59 PM »
I have the same questions for any oppressed person or group:

Isn't that great loving being to blame when you are having trouble? Or does it only become "awesomely all-powerful" when the worse is already over?

Why don't you give yourself the credit for survival or escape? If you are going to thank the supreme being for the good stuff, at least let it take some cursing for getting you in the mess to begin with. (Thanks, Jehovah.)

I don't believe God does these things.  I got cancer most likely because of smoking.  Little kids I think because of pollution from our oil production and usage and too many chemicals that "make life easier".  Mine could be both.  I think factory farming has been cleaned up but I grew up on that slop.

Death is not a bad thing if it takes you to paradise.  Ever seen a funeral procession in New Orleans.  It is a celebration.  My dad was so excited to go meet Jesus he was not depressed about dying.  He was given 2 years and died almost to the day 2 years later. 

I have cursed God many times.  It was quite the scene. 

I am not going to be angry with God for not saving us.  We can save ourselves!

To me if we fail then God fails.  If God has to save us that means God failed, life failed, mankind failed.  If we got the [absolute] best the universe can offer; what would be the sense in duplicating the project?  I think that's why there's not more earths out there.  Not because the universe can't do it but maybe it's because we prove it shouldn't.  I think it's time we prove it should.  But that's me.  Then if a comet hits this earth there is another one right around the corner...


Joy,

JB

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2014, 09:15:20 PM »
Of course there are environmental and lifestyle factors for cancer, heart disease and other modern-day illnesses. That is why medical researchers try to find out why people get certain diseases so we can prevent them.

But throughout most of human history, people (esp babies and children) have suffered, gotten sick and died from things that could not possibly be prevented because people did not yet know how to do it. For thousands of years, epidemics and plagues swept through communities, and it was not because of anything wrong that people did. Before people knew about germs, it was demons, witches and magic that caused illness. Funny how fewer people believe in that stuff nowadays.

You have to reconcile that fact with your idea of a loving spirit being that cares for people--why allow babies to get sick and die for thousands of years from illnesses that were not preventable due to lack of scientific knowledge?  Why didn't the loving being just tell prehistoric people the basics about germs and the need to simply boil the drinking water? What was the point of waiting until the 1960's to get basic public health measures to the world?

I understand that you believe in some sort of being or force because it comforts you. I relate to what you have been through.[1] But like Jag said, I can't figure out where you get the idea that your being is real. Because you have quite clearly made it up.

Who wouldn't want to live forever in some kind of paradise or alternate reality with all our favorite people, doing all our favorite things? I would love to float around on a cloud with Neil Degrasse Tyson, surrounded by thousands of cute baby animals, watching live superheroes acting out their movies while eating ice cream and birthday cake.  ;D

Only problem is, such a dream has no basis in reality. We only have one guaranteed shot to spend with our favorite people. Here and now. I realize that you can't imagine a world where sh!t just happens, but sometimes it does. So what we need to do is make the best of it, and try to help other people make the best of it, too. Any time wasted on planning for an afterlife is just that-- wasted time.
 1. When I was an abused kid, I became a hardcore Trekkie; Bones and Mr. Spock kept me sane. Seriously, I learned how to "go Vulcan" to deal with the awful stuff. Later on, in therapy I found out about dissociation and all those fancy terms.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 11:35:19 AM »
NoGods are you saying that life should not have happened?

I don't believe God gives us disease nor do I believe God heals disease or handicaps.  If I did I wouldn't have went to the doctor.

I believe in a NATURAL GOD not a supernatural one.

I didn't make God up.  The idea has been around a lot longer than I have.

I say there is not enough knowledge to say with 100% certainty there is no afterlife.  YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT no more that I know it is.  Neither of us knows what happens after we die to our consciousness/spirit.  We have different ideas but that's all they are right now.

I don't think dying from natural cause defines suffering.   I consider suffering to be hunger, violence, hate, and poverty.  Diseases caused by mankind's influence over the atmosphere I do not consider a "natural" death.

These matters are certainly within mankind's control.

Joy,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 11:50:15 AM »
You have made up your version of god. Your god does not reflect reality. You did not address the idea that for most of humanity's history, people suffered from all kinds of things that naturally happen. Once people figure out what caused those diseases, natural disasters, etc, they could do something about them.

But no spirit or god being ever came to the aid of anyone. Unless you think it waited around until the mid-20th century to start actively helping?

As for the afterlife, there is no reason to think there is any. No reason at all. Wishes and imagination are not reasons.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 03:32:30 PM »
I believe in a NATURAL GOD not a supernatural one.

All new GOD! 
God is an all natural product with NO supernatural additives.
God is 100% organic, so you know you won't be putting anything into your body you don't want.

A little bit of all natural GOD every day will keep your skin young looking and glowing!  It is easier for the skin and never feels heavy or cakey, like other products with supernatural ingredients do.

Tackle countless chores with all natural GOD!  All natural GOD can kill bacteria and mold. It's very strong, so don’t go overboard: One drop of all natural GOD is as potent as 30 cups of supernatural peppermint tea.  When added to a laundry wash, all natural GOD makes detergents even more effective.  It’s also “quite alkaline, so it kills mold and fungus and softens water,” says Robert Wolke, Ph.D.

All natural GOD (a.k.a. yhwh) and its close cousin, The Holy Spirit, both absorb odors without the supernatual ingredients of other spirits.

So buy all natural GOD, now without the supernatural!




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Offline jdawg70

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 03:36:58 PM »
All new GOD! 
God is an all natural product with NO supernatural additives.
God is 100% organic, so you know you won't be putting anything into your body you don't want.

A little bit of all natural GOD every day will keep your skin young looking and glowing!  It is easier for the skin and never feels heavy or cakey, like other products with supernatural ingredients do.

Tackle countless chores with all natural GOD!  All natural GOD can kill bacteria and mold. It's very strong, so don’t go overboard: One drop of all natural GOD is as potent as 30 cups of supernatural peppermint tea.  When added to a laundry wash, all natural GOD makes detergents even more effective.  It’s also “quite alkaline, so it kills mold and fungus and softens water,” says Robert Wolke, Ph.D.

All natural GOD (a.k.a. yhwh) and its close cousin, The Holy Spirit, both absorb odors without the supernatual ingredients of other spirits.

So buy all natural GOD, now without the supernatural!

ShamWow indeed.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 04:15:37 PM »
^^^^ ;)

JB, let me see if I can summarize your perspective accurately. The best kind of discussion comes from people really understanding opposing points of view. You say you did not make up your god, but it already existed. How did you find out about it? From other people, from books, or directly from this god in some fashion?

When most people refer to a god, they mean a being or force with superior knowledge, powers above human, who possibly created the universe and everything in it. Gods also supposedly communicate with people and give laws or morals for living. Sometimes gods are defined as beings that only do good (praise god from whom all blessings flow), but gods also can do what people would consider negative things, like cause AIDS, or drown a country in a tsunami.

You, however are positing a different take on god: you say that your god does not give anyone disabilities or sickness, nor does it heal anyone from disabilities or sickness. It has not communicated with humans through religious prophets. It is not responsible for anything that happens, good or bad, positive or negative or helpful or harmful. Negative things, like tsunamis, are either part of nature that we just have to deal with, or like warfare, are caused by human beings. 

Positive things are... apparently also part of nature or caused by human beings, I think. I am not sure what your take is on where random positive things come from. Does your god make someone have musical talent, help pretty flowers grow in a garden, help a homeless man win the lotto or find someone's car keys?

You say your god does not have any magical or supernatural powers. It has not been properly represented in any of the world's religions. Yet, you somehow connect Jesus--a Christian figure-- with your non-religious god. Again I am wondering how you found out about this god, and why nobody else seems to know about it.

From what you have written, it seems like your god is indistinguishable from the natural world.  It is just the world, life, the universe, and everything. Am I understanding you correctly?

You have also said your god loves us all, saved you from child abuse and gives everyone a wonderful afterlife. Is that also correct?

It seems that you have used a lot or words to say this:  having your god in the picture is exactly the same as not having any "god" at all, from the way most people define a god. Can you begin to understand why I suggested that you have made up your own version of god?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 04:45:49 PM »
You have made up your version of god. Your god does not reflect reality.


Yes and I'm quite proud if it.  No religion necessary.  My God reflects my reality.


You did not address the idea that for most of humanity's history, people suffered from all kinds of things that naturally happen.


Yes I did.  I said I believe in a NATURAL God.   I am so thankful that mankind has figured out how to overcome many obstacles.  We have not conquered them all.  Scientist try to overcome bad science.  Theist try to overcome bad theology.  That is what I believe my life was meant for. 


Once people figure out what caused those diseases, natural disasters, etc, they could do something about them.

Yes can't disagree here.  I just have to add that only a minority of people care or believe the theory of global warming.


But no spirit or god being ever came to the aid of anyone. Unless you think it waited around until the mid-20th century to start actively helping?


I have never even come close to insinuating I believe such a thing.  God has only helped me spiritually, TMK.


As for the afterlife, there is no reason to think there is any. No reason at all.


Speak for yourself please.  I have every reason in the whole wide universe to hope for an afterlife.  Every reason...

Wishes and imagination are not reasons.

If I wish upon a star...makes no difference where you are...

What a sad thing to say.  Wishes and imaginations are the reasons for everything.  I mean EVERYTHING.   EVERYTHING.

Put up your toys kids don't use that imagination it's bad for you hahahahahahahahahaha     ha

Don't put candles on the birthday cake because wishes are for; well you know. hehehe

Makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.  :'( :laugh:

Please cheer up,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 04:50:18 PM »
As for the afterlife, there is no reason to think there is any. No reason at all.


Speak for yourself please.  I have every reason in the whole wide universe to hope for an afterlife.  Every reason...

Reason to hope for something is not the same as reason to think something is true.  do you see the difference there?

I have every reason to hope it will rain beer tonight.

Quote
Wishes and imagination are not reasons.
Wishes and imaginations are the reasons for everything.  I mean EVERYTHING. 

What do you mean?
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 05:13:22 PM »
I believe in a NATURAL GOD not a supernatural one.

All new GOD! 
God is an all natural product with NO supernatural additives.
God is 100% organic, so you know you won't be putting anything into your body you don't want.

A little bit of all natural GOD every day will keep your skin young looking and glowing!  It is easier for the skin and never feels heavy or cakey, like other products with supernatural ingredients do.

Tackle countless chores with all natural GOD!  All natural GOD can kill bacteria and mold. It's very strong, so don’t go overboard: One drop of all natural GOD is as potent as 30 cups of supernatural peppermint tea.  When added to a laundry wash, all natural GOD makes detergents even more effective.  It’s also “quite alkaline, so it kills mold and fungus and softens water,” says Robert Wolke, Ph.D.

All natural GOD (a.k.a. yhwh) and its close cousin, The Holy Spirit, both absorb odors without the supernatual ingredients of other spirits.

So buy all natural GOD, now without the supernatural!

Blasphemy i tell you Blasphemy!!! No really just kidding.  I really don't get your point just seems like a very poor attempt at sarcastic humor.  I am not amused.

Maybe this will cheer you up...

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 05:25:12 PM »
I don't think you understand me. Wishes and imagination are fun and useful and great. But they are not the same as knowing what is real. No matter how much we wish and imagine, there is either a wonderful after life, or there is not. Imagining that there is one will not make it appear if it is not the reality.

Wishes over a birthday cake are fun, but if a child wishes for a unicorn or a trip on a spaceship or for their alcoholic dad to sober up and become a millionaire, they are likely to be disappointed.

Imagination is great, but you do not want your heart surgeon to imagine they have taken the right medical courses and passed them if they have never been to medical school.

See the difference? There is always reality to account for.

I am not sure how I feel about your admitting that you have invented your own personal god, and actually believe that it is real. I wonder if you should be allowed to drive a car. I am serious. You might see this god in the road and swerve to avoid it and run over a child.   :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 05:28:43 PM »
^^^^ ;)

JB, let me see if I can summarize your perspective accurately. The best kind of discussion comes from people really understanding opposing points of view. You say you did not make up your god, but it already existed. How did you find out about it? From other people, from books, or directly from this god in some fashion?

When most people refer to a god, they mean a being or force with superior knowledge, powers above human, who possibly created the universe and everything in it. Gods also supposedly communicate with people and give laws or morals for living. Sometimes gods are defined as beings that only do good (praise god from whom all blessings flow), but gods also can do what people would consider negative things, like cause AIDS, or drown a country in a tsunami.

You, however are positing a different take on god: you say that your god does not give anyone disabilities or sickness, nor does it heal anyone from disabilities or sickness. It has not communicated with humans through religious prophets. It is not responsible for anything that happens, good or bad, positive or negative or helpful or harmful. Negative things, like tsunamis, are either part of nature that we just have to deal with, or like warfare, are caused by human beings. 

Positive things are... apparently also part of nature or caused by human beings, I think. I am not sure what your take is on where random positive things come from. Does your god make someone have musical talent, help pretty flowers grow in a garden, help a homeless man win the lotto or find someone's car keys?

You say your god does not have any magical or supernatural powers. It has not been properly represented in any of the world's religions. Yet, you somehow connect Jesus--a Christian figure-- with your non-religious god. Again I am wondering how you found out about this god, and why nobody else seems to know about it.

From what you have written, it seems like your god is indistinguishable from the natural world.  It is just the world, life, the universe, and everything. Am I understanding you correctly?

You have also said your god loves us all, saved you from child abuse and gives everyone a wonderful afterlife. Is that also correct?

It seems that you have used a lot or words to say this:  having your god in the picture is exactly the same as not having any "god" at all, from the way most people define a god. Can you begin to understand why I suggested that you have made up your own version of god?

Good grief NoGods you just asked me 6 questions.  I will admit that is challenging with my chemo brain.  Can we please go a little slower?

Thanks,

JB


You have my perspective somewhat understood but still very misunderstood.  I wonder if you would do me one favor and try to pick out what you think I'll say your mistakes were.  It's hard to understand someone else's perspective.  It means a lot to me that you are trying.

I may not understand everything about atheism but I can definitely understand why they do not believe in god/gods.  I have been there. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2014, 05:39:48 PM »
Okay. Let me give you one simple question. You said that your god helped you spiritually. What does that actually mean, that it has made you feel better when you were sad?

Does the god that you invented do anything else in the real world that people could detect? That is, does it appear to you as a person, or make a noise or throw bowls onto the floor?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: I'm finally addressing this question
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2014, 05:53:27 PM »
As for the afterlife, there is no reason to think there is any. No reason at all.


Speak for yourself please.  I have every reason in the whole wide universe to hope for an afterlife.  Every reason...

Reason to hope for something is not the same as reason to think something is true.  do you see the difference there?

I have every reason to hope it will rain beer tonight.

Quote
Wishes and imagination are not reasons.
Wishes and imaginations are the reasons for everything.  I mean EVERYTHING. 

What do you mean?

Yes I do see the difference, I do.  Thanks for asking.

I can't drink it but TR would love it so long as it's Busch Lite! ;)

Wishes and dreams do come true.  They are both good for our brains and well being.  Where did your computer, house, apparel, food, so many things come from if not the imagination?  Holy cow's bells. :o

Start telling people not to dream big and they'll be no athletes, musicians, artist, so many things we enjoy would not exist.  Like blowing out birthday candles. 

You do have to actively achieve those wishes/dreams.  You have to create what you imagine.


Joy,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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