Author Topic: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz  (Read 1849 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2014, 07:28:15 AM »
You don't do what you want ever?  Some God pulling your strings forcing you to live?

We don't know if what we want is free. Would you vote Republican? If you have the free will to vote Republican, then why don't you do it?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2014, 07:50:26 AM »
I believe he was crucified because he got caught.
Caught doing what?

Well, if you believe the stories, he was a black magician, bringing the dead back to life, curing illnesses that were sent by god to try us, transmutating foodstuffs......all the stuff that witches and sorcerers do.  And "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" in them days.  I'm amazed they crucified him and didn't burn him at the stake.

Sure, he SAID it was all the "new way" god wanted things done, but those were clearly lies to disguise his blasphemous nature.  There were centuries of clear evidence of how god wanted things done - stoning the disobedient, mass-drowning the unbelievers, "an eye for an eye".....all that airy-fairy new-age nonsense Jesus spouted was CLEARLY not the will of the god who had been interacting with Noah and Moses and David et al.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2014, 10:04:41 AM »
If you had to chose between mine and OCG's beliefs which do you chose;  the one that robs you of freewill or mine the one that doesn't.
I would want to choose the belief that is correct.  That is grounded in actuality.  The effects that belief may have on me are quite secondary concerns to me.  "Argument to consequences"?  No thanks.
I knew you wouldn't answer.  I knew it. 

So the question you are asking is: "if you had to choose between these two beliefs, neither of which you felt was grounded in reality, which would you choose"? 

Most likely?  I'd flip a coin.  Same way I'd choose between any two options that I don't believe actually exist.


However, if you are asking me: "one of these beliefs is true.  Do you want to follow the one where you are FORCED to believe, or the one where you are not forced, which would you choose?"

Sorry, but I'd choose the one where I was forced.  Makes far more sense.  If I choose YOUR route, and it turns out wrong, then I get smote.  If I choose THEIR route, and it turns out you were right all along, then I likely WON'T get smote.  Same logic I use that if I HAD to pick a religion, I would pick Islam.  Worst downside for not picking it (if right), best upside.

I thought you were the brave atheist.  If you really used that logic to make decisions you'd be Islamic and your not.  It is hard to believe you are being honest here.  It really is.  Since you have clearly chosen atheism.  Where's the "upside" to that, as far as getting smote goes?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2014, 10:11:34 AM »
You don't do what you want ever?  Some God pulling your strings forcing you to live?

We don't know if what we want is free. Would you vote Republican? If you have the free will to vote Republican, then why don't you do it?

I really don't get your point.  I'll play though.  I do have the freewill to vote republican, I chose not to.  We stand for different things.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2014, 04:16:53 AM »
I thought you were the brave atheist.  If you really used that logic to make decisions you'd be Islamic and your not.  It is hard to believe you are being honest here.  It really is. 

That's because I've been very specifically answering the exact questions you've been asking - but it appears you've not been viewing them in that context. 

In my original answer, I made it quite clear that the choice I make is based on evidence.

I would want to choose the belief that is correct.  That is grounded in actuality. 

But you didn't like that answer - you wanted to know which of two options I would pick if forced, if my preferred option of "the one with evidence" was off the table.  So, as requested, I picked from the two options you presented.

I'd choose the one where I was forced.  Makes far more sense.  If I choose YOUR route, and it turns out wrong, then I get smote.  If I choose THEIR route, and it turns out you were right all along, then I likely WON'T get smote. 

Binary choice, I picked the best of the two options.  You don't like that answer either - sorry.  But that's my answer: if I HAD to pick one of the two options you presented, I'd pick that one - but I wouldn't actually want either. 

And you want to know why I'm not currently a Muslim, given my logic.  Read carefully what I said though (I've emboldened).

if I HAD to pick a religion, I would pick Islam.  Worst downside for not picking it (if right), best upside.

Again, this is the "gun to the head" scenario......hence the "HAD to pick".  If atheism were no longer an option, then of the many options for belief, I would go with Islam.

I'm sorry you don't get where I'm coming from.  Its like.....I want chocolate ice cream.  I'd choose that, every time.  But if you hold a gun to my head and shout "strawberry or vanilla?  STRAWBERRY OR VANILLA?" I would pick one of those.....probably strawberry.

But that doesn't mean I would actually think strawberry is better than chocolate.

Since you have clearly chosen atheism.  Where's the "upside" to that, as far as getting smote goes?

And - as I said right from the start:

"Argument to consequences"?  No thanks.

I am an atheist because I have no evidence for any other position.  I do not wear waders to work "just in case" there is a snake under my desk.  I do not swallow my ring before bringing in the milk "just in case" there is a mugger on the doorstep.  So I do not pick a religion "just in case" one might be correct.

You are conflating the open question "which do you pick?" with the closed "pick one of these!" - Pascal's Wager by another name.

Happy to expand further if anything is still unclear.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2014, 04:42:14 AM »
I thought you were the brave atheist.  If you really used that logic to make decisions you'd be Islamic and your not.  It is hard to believe you are being honest here.  It really is. 

That's because I've been very specifically answering the exact questions you've been asking - but it appears you've not been viewing them in that context. 

In my original answer, I made it quite clear that the choice I make is based on evidence.

I would want to choose the belief that is correct.  That is grounded in actuality. 

But you didn't like that answer - you wanted to know which of two options I would pick if forced, if my preferred option of "the one with evidence" was off the table.  So, as requested, I picked from the two options you presented.

I'd choose the one where I was forced.  Makes far more sense.  If I choose YOUR route, and it turns out wrong, then I get smote.  If I choose THEIR route, and it turns out you were right all along, then I likely WON'T get smote. 

Binary choice, I picked the best of the two options.  You don't like that answer either - sorry.  But that's my answer: if I HAD to pick one of the two options you presented, I'd pick that one - but I wouldn't actually want either. 

And you want to know why I'm not currently a Muslim, given my logic.  Read carefully what I said though (I've emboldened).

if I HAD to pick a religion, I would pick Islam.  Worst downside for not picking it (if right), best upside.

Again, this is the "gun to the head" scenario......hence the "HAD to pick".  If atheism were no longer an option, then of the many options for belief, I would go with Islam.

I'm sorry you don't get where I'm coming from.  Its like.....I want chocolate ice cream.  I'd choose that, every time.  But if you hold a gun to my head and shout "strawberry or vanilla?  STRAWBERRY OR VANILLA?" I would pick one of those.....probably strawberry.

But that doesn't mean I would actually think strawberry is better than chocolate.

Since you have clearly chosen atheism.  Where's the "upside" to that, as far as getting smote goes?

And - as I said right from the start:

"Argument to consequences"?  No thanks.

I am an atheist because I have no evidence for any other position.  I do not wear waders to work "just in case" there is a snake under my desk.  I do not swallow my ring before bringing in the milk "just in case" there is a mugger on the doorstep.  So I do not pick a religion "just in case" one might be correct.

You are conflating the open question "which do you pick?" with the closed "pick one of these!" - Pascal's Wager by another name.

Happy to expand further if anything is still unclear.

I'm just holding you to the same standards you hold me to.  I will also point out that hypotheticals are as useless as tits on a boar hog.  I could not be a Christian in your hypo question and you could not chose between two beliefs.  What's the purpose?

Also if you would pick Islam they define a cruel god and I think that makes you a cruel man.

I never said it was good logic. ;) 

It's very clear that you should've chosen spirituality and not religion.  I am taking just as big a chance here as any atheist according to the bible.  IDK I think I am an atheist according to the bible.  I don't read it much at all and when I do I avoid the dark and dreary OT.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2014, 05:06:41 AM »
I think the Christians here dishonor Jesus by ignoring this thread.  OCG has trolled it.  That's why religion is a dishonor to his name, Jesus. 

The responsibility of living up to another's name as great as the Man Jesus is not easily accomplished.   Even by those with the best of intentions.  Every word we speak every move we make is being scrutinized by our peers.  When you proclaim Christianity and do not live up to that name it hurts the name Jesus.

Jesus according to the story was a rebel against religion.   In reality Christianity should be against religion not be one. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2014, 05:34:21 AM »
Err June...

Christianity IS a religion...
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2014, 07:59:07 AM »
I could not be a Christian in your hypothetical question and you could not chose between two beliefs

Quite thought I did.....twice.

I'd choose the one where I was forced.  Makes far more sense.  If I choose YOUR route, and it turns out wrong, then I get smote.  If I choose THEIR route, and it turns out you were right all along, then I likely WON'T get smote. 
if I HAD to pick a religion, I would pick Islam.  Worst downside for not picking it (if right), best upside.

You may not have liked my answers, but I don't see any way that I could be accused of NOT choosing between beliefs. 

Also if you would pick Islam they define a cruel god and I think that makes you a cruel man.

Fortunately, that doesn't worry me because - as I've repeated over and over - Islaim is NOT my choice.  It's the gun-to-my-head choice if I have to pick between a set of options where I don't believe any are real.   

I am an atheist because I have no evidence for any other position.

I'd also presumed from the context that we were talking about choosing based on the Argument from Consequences to me as an individual.

If you had to chose between mine and OCG's beliefs which do you chose;  the one that robs you of freewill or mine the one that doesn't.

The original "choice" you gave me didn't consider how the religion dealt with others - just how it affected me.  So that's how I was answering.  Like I said, I'm answering the actual questions you pose as specifically as I can.

As to your final point.....
It's very clear that you should've chosen spirituality and not religion......

Sorry, but I haven't chosen EITHER.  At the risk of repeating myself, I'll say it again:

I am an atheist because I have no evidence for any other position.

I see no practical difference between "spirituality" (as you appear to be using it here) and religion.  Both are unsubstantiated woo and belief in the supernatural, just one has had more time to develop rules than the other.

Final thought.  You dislike religion, you say, because it attempts to constrain the choice people make.  So I find it rather ironic that in a single post, you tell me "you are bad if you make that choice" and "you should choose this type of belief rather than that".  I honestly cannot see ANY difference between what you are saying there, and the "religions" that you so dislike.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online wheels5894

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2014, 08:33:48 AM »
<snip>
Jesus according to the story was a rebel against religion.   In reality Christianity should be against religion not be one.

You are right in one sense, June. Jesus argued against the hierarchical religious system of his day where the cost of worship and forgiveness was pretty high for the ordinary people. Money changers charge a lot of converting money to the Temple Money, sacrifices had to be of perfect animals so worshippers more or less had to buy them as the temple at high prices and, finally the tithing didn't leave much for ordinary living.

Jesus argued for a personal relationship between the individual and god and promised that those who confessed their sins to god would be forgiven. Jesus wanted the outcasts of society to be part of religion too - the ones who were generally excluded.  I think that this was intended as a reform of the Jewish religion and not a new religion that Jesus was said to have wanted. Of course later writings, like the gospels, show various ideas for a new church emerging, probably as a result of Christians being thrown out of the synagogues.

Naturally, nothing stays the same and a religion practices by breaking bread in each others houses was never going to last and it didn't take long for clergy to appear and take over the leadership. It didn't last long, either, before a bishop in Rome, Clement, demanded he was superior to the other bishops and thus the reign of Rome began. The pope took over the various titles of the Roman Emperors such as Pontifex Maximus and so on. Its not surprising that the reformation tried to grab back some of the power of Rome for ordinary people so that Presbyterian churches and principally run by elders

If there were a Jesus to come back and look at the state of the religion of his name in the present I suspect he would be deeply shocked at how his egalitarian views got corrupted by the power drive of clergy and even how some of his teaching has been distorted over the years. There's no danger of that, though, so its fine to keep on as usual for the clergy.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2014, 08:38:27 AM »
Isn't it ironic that a person who proclaims themselves to be THE SON OF THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, to say that RELIGION should be abolished?

Its like, I AM THE CO-DESIGNER OF THE ICE CREAM CONE, AND I AM HERE TO ABOLISH ICE CREAM!
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Online wheels5894

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2014, 08:45:24 AM »
Isn't it ironic that a person who proclaims themselves to be THE SON OF THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, to say that RELIGION should be abolished?

Its like, I AM THE CO-DESIGNER OF THE ICE CREAM CONE, AND I AM HERE TO ABOLISH ICE CREAM!

I don't think we can read what Jesus is supposed to have said as his advocating and end to religion. More it is his idea, I think, to personalise religion - to bring the people and god together without the intermediates of the Temple and the priests. Writing this now, I do wonder if it might have been post 70CE writing as the synagogue was essentially just what Jesus was advocating. Remember, a lot of the Jewish faith is home based - most of the seasons have home ceremonies and every shabat has its own ceremonies too. The synagogue is a meeting place for worship as an adjunct to the home ceremonies of worship.

Later Christianity went bad as it returned worship to something approximating to the old temple worship.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2014, 09:13:16 AM »
Isn't it ironic that a person who proclaims themselves to be THE SON OF THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, to say that RELIGION should be abolished?

Its like, I AM THE CO-DESIGNER OF THE ICE CREAM CONE, AND I AM HERE TO ABOLISH ICE CREAM!

To be fair, I think we've established that Junebug is not talking about straightforward god-beliefs when she refers to "religion", nor indeed the precepts that any alleged god may make.  Her dislike and distrust of "religion" refers to the hierarchies and rigmarole that becomes built up around the initial precepts, that becomes more a vehicle for perpetuating the power of the religious leaders than promoting the alleged god's alleged wishes.

It's about the organisation built around a belief and how that organisation becomes more important than the belief, rather than the belief itself.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2014, 09:30:05 AM »

Quite thought I did.....twice.

I'd choose the one where I was forced.  Makes far more sense.  If I choose YOUR route, and it turns out wrong, then I get smote.  If I choose THEIR route, and it turns out you were right all along, then I likely WON'T get smote. 
if I HAD to pick a religion, I would pick Islam.  Worst downside for not picking it (if right), best upside.

You may not have liked my answers, but I don't see any way that I could be accused of NOT choosing between beliefs. 

You added a belief,Islam.  You chose the one with a cruel god.  It just doesn't make sense.  This is why we live our lives in fear.  The cruel God has ruled too long.  Fear should not be the motivator of belief. 

Let's just move on.  We could spend a lot of time being defensive.  Time is too precious to waste.

Our beliefs reflect who we are. 

This is some of the most fascinating human behavior I have been a part of.  I am pretty sure atheist are taking up for Christianity.  Somebody has to. :? :o
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2014, 09:39:05 AM »
Isn't it ironic that a person who proclaims themselves to be THE SON OF THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, to say that RELIGION should be abolished?

Its like, I AM THE CO-DESIGNER OF THE ICE CREAM CONE, AND I AM HERE TO ABOLISH ICE CREAM!

I don't think we can read what Jesus is supposed to have said as his advocating and end to religion. More it is his idea, I think, to personalise religion - to bring the people and god together without the intermediates of the Temple and the priests. Writing this now, I do wonder if it might have been post 70CE writing as the synagogue was essentially just what Jesus was advocating. Remember, a lot of the Jewish faith is home based - most of the seasons have home ceremonies and every shabat has its own ceremonies too. The synagogue is a meeting place for worship as an adjunct to the home ceremonies of worship.

Later Christianity went bad as it returned worship to something approximating to the old temple worship.

Moses's laws and Jesus laws are contradictory of one another.  Moses's laws= foundation of religion.  Personalized belief is not religion.  Anfauglir really explains my definition of religion better than I do.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2014, 09:50:14 AM »
Err June...

Christianity IS a religion...

Dah I know that.  Everyone else in this thread knows that.  I am no more a Christian than you are.  I am not going to debate this topic again and derail this thread.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2014, 10:01:08 AM »
if I HAD to pick a religion, I would pick Islam.  Worst downside for not picking it (if right), best upside.

You may not have liked my answers, but I don't see any way that I could be accused of NOT choosing between beliefs. 

You added a belief,Islam.  You chose the one with a cruel god.  It just doesn't make sense. 

It does, if you read my response which explained the context in which I brought it in.

I'd also presumed from the context that we were talking about choosing based on the Argument from Consequences to me as an individual.

If you had to chose between mine and OCG's beliefs which do you chose;  the one that robs you of freewill or mine the one that doesn't.

The original "choice" you gave me didn't consider how the religion dealt with others - just how it affected me.  So that's how I was answering.  Like I said, I'm answering the actual questions you pose as specifically as I can.

You intially asked me which belief I would pick, from two that you chose, based on how they would affect me.  You got cross when I first said "neither", so I ran with the constrained choice and answered.  I then expanded on that to let you know what of all the choices I didn't want, there was one choice that would potentially give ME the best result if I had a choice from all the religions I don't believe in - a better result for ME than either of the two choices you originally offered.

It seems that the question you actually wanted me to answer was:
"which of the many religons that exist that you don't support because you don't believe in any of them, is the one that gives the best result for the most people, with respect to this earthly life and disregarding the afterlife consequences that may result for you from that choice?"

If THAT's the question, then I'll say "Buddhism".  Hope that clears things up.

Sorry to not just let it drop as requested, but as you stated that "our beliefs reflect who we are" I feel it is important that you understand exactly what I am saying about my beliefs - especially as the misunderstanding resulted in you deciding that I was "cruel".
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:03:15 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2014, 10:03:08 AM »
Fuck off. If you do not want positive relations, so be it.

You -1ed me that is a negative action.  Don't expect a pat on the back.  I haven't smote anyone in a while.  You are a party pooper for sure. 

I think we could all use some ice scream cream.

I have always been nice to you and respectful.  What's you're problem dude? 

I hope we can get back to a positive exchange.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online wheels5894

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2014, 10:08:37 AM »
Isn't it ironic that a person who proclaims themselves to be THE SON OF THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, to say that RELIGION should be abolished?

Its like, I AM THE CO-DESIGNER OF THE ICE CREAM CONE, AND I AM HERE TO ABOLISH ICE CREAM!

I don't think we can read what Jesus is supposed to have said as his advocating and end to religion. More it is his idea, I think, to personalise religion - to bring the people and god together without the intermediates of the Temple and the priests. Writing this now, I do wonder if it might have been post 70CE writing as the synagogue was essentially just what Jesus was advocating. Remember, a lot of the Jewish faith is home based - most of the seasons have home ceremonies and every shabat has its own ceremonies too. The synagogue is a meeting place for worship as an adjunct to the home ceremonies of worship.

Later Christianity went bad as it returned worship to something approximating to the old temple worship.

Moses's laws and Jesus laws are contradictory of one another.  Moses's laws= foundation of religion.  Personalized belief is not religion.  Anfauglir really explains my definition of religion better than I do.
 

Possibly, but I was explaining how Christianity developed and how in the early days it resembled Judaism with the centre being in the home.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2014, 10:12:42 AM »
if I HAD to pick a religion, I would pick Islam.  Worst downside for not picking it (if right), best upside.

You may not have liked my answers, but I don't see any way that I could be accused of NOT choosing between beliefs. 

You added a belief,Islam.  You chose the one with a cruel god.  It just doesn't make sense. 

It does, if you read my response which explained the context in which I brought it in.

I'd also presumed from the context that we were talking about choosing based on the Argument from Consequences to me as an individual.

If you had to chose between mine and OCG's beliefs which do you chose;  the one that robs you of freewill or mine the one that doesn't.

The original "choice" you gave me didn't consider how the religion dealt with others - just how it affected me.  So that's how I was answering.  Like I said, I'm answering the actual questions you pose as specifically as I can.

You intially asked me which belief I would pick, from two that you chose, based on how they would affect me.  You got cross when I first said "neither", so I ran with the constrained choice and answered.  I then expanded on that to let you know what of all the choices I didn't want, there was one choice that would potentially give ME the best result if I had a choice from all the religions I don't believe in - a better result for ME than either of the two choices you originally offered.

It seems that the question you actually wanted me to answer was:
"which of the many religons that exist that you don't support because you don't believe in any of them, is the one that gives the best result for the most people, with respect to this earthly life and disregarding the afterlife consequences that may result for you from that choice?"

If THAT's the question, then I'll say "Buddhism".  Hope that clears things up.

Sorry to not just let it drop as requested, but as you stated that "our beliefs reflect who we are" I feel it is important that you understand exactly what I am saying about my beliefs - especially as the misunderstanding resulted in you deciding that I was "cruel".

Hey that's okay I understand.  Yes that clears things up perfectly.  Buddhism is good.  Don't know nor have I ever heard of a cruel Buddhist.

Yea my mind was going whoop woo.  Had me all kinds of twisted. :)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2014, 10:23:13 AM »
Isn't it ironic that a person who proclaims themselves to be THE SON OF THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, to say that RELIGION should be abolished?

Its like, I AM THE CO-DESIGNER OF THE ICE CREAM CONE, AND I AM HERE TO ABOLISH ICE CREAM!

I don't think we can read what Jesus is supposed to have said as his advocating and end to religion. More it is his idea, I think, to personalise religion - to bring the people and god together without the intermediates of the Temple and the priests. Writing this now, I do wonder if it might have been post 70CE writing as the synagogue was essentially just what Jesus was advocating. Remember, a lot of the Jewish faith is home based - most of the seasons have home ceremonies and every shabat has its own ceremonies too. The synagogue is a meeting place for worship as an adjunct to the home ceremonies of worship.

Later Christianity went bad as it returned worship to something approximating to the old temple worship.

Moses's laws and Jesus laws are contradictory of one another.  Moses's laws= foundation of religion.  Personalized belief is not religion.  Anfauglir really explains my definition of religion better than I do.
 

Possibly, but I was explaining how Christianity developed and how in the early days it resembled Judaism with the centre being in the home.

Gotcha.  There ain't nothing wrong with keeping it at home!  I am all for that.  I am in the NT.  Will you please give me your interpretation of the verses that SevenPatch posted earlier here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26446.msg604681.html#msg604681

It would also be nice if you could go over mine after you make yours.  I wouldn't want to cloud your judgement.  Thanks a lot.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2014, 03:52:08 AM »
Well the name Christ has been stomped on yet again.  These Christians here care more about their pride than they do their Savior.

Would NOT happen if there was not a religion named after him.

I give up.  I still insist their lack of participation here is all the evidence I need!!!

No human can be like Jesus. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2014, 03:59:26 AM »
Quote from: Angus and Alexis
Quote
You want to start a war? Do you?

AA I am not afraid of you.

I clearly said here,
Fuck off. If you do not want positive relations, so be it.

You -1ed me that is a negative action.  Don't expect a pat on the back.  I haven't smote anyone in a while.  You are a party pooper for sure. 

I think we could all use some ice scream cream.

I have always been nice to you and respectful.  What's you're problem dude? 

I hope we can get back to a positive exchange.

 I do not wish for a war.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2014, 04:03:46 AM »
Angus and Alexis, Junebug, this stops NOW please.  I do not wish to see any further posts escalating this.  If one of you believes the other has posted in a provocative manner, please do NOT respond, and instead use the "report" function. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2014, 04:11:26 AM »
No human can be like Jesus.

If he existed...
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Dark Rabbit

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2014, 04:50:04 PM »
Problem is that the question about his existence cannot be answered since the best evidence consists of at least 35 year of oral tradition put to writing in greek by unknown sources in a text that was prepped many times over to convince rather than to accurately depict facts. And even when you cherry pick your most precious Jesus facts that you want to be true, the question that keeps on lingering in the mind is whether such an important message about the salvation of the world deserves to be this badly documented as if this celestial hide and seek somehow warrants its supposedly divine nature.

A test should be if such claims could be based in our time. Would you believe it if some unknown greek writer told you hear and now he had heard of a guy that died 35 years ago that could walk on water and wake the dead? No, no, he isn't arguing that he has actually witnessed that, be has heard about it and it's a miraculous story so it must be true.

At some point there may arise a nagging question about intellectual integrity.  The good part is that you can go beyond that point easily.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #84 on: March 22, 2014, 05:04:07 AM »
Problem is that the question about his existence cannot be answered since the best evidence consists of at least 35 year of oral tradition put to writing in greek by unknown sources in a text that was prepped many times over to convince rather than to accurately depict facts. And even when you cherry pick your most precious Jesus facts that you want to be true, the question that keeps on lingering in the mind is whether such an important message about the salvation of the world deserves to be this badly documented as if this celestial hide and seek somehow warrants its supposedly divine nature.

A test should be if such claims could be based in our time. Would you believe it if some unknown greek writer told you hear and now he had heard of a guy that died 35 years ago that could walk on water and wake the dead? No, no, he isn't arguing that he has actually witnessed that, be has heard about it and it's a miraculous story so it must be true.

At some point there may arise a nagging question about intellectual integrity.  The good part is that you can go beyond that point easily.

You make good points about the historicity of the stories in the NT. There are, I think, only the Roman officials that can be verified from other sources so what we have in the NT is unsupported by any other evidence. We do, of course, have evidence that people believed what is condensed into the gospels as evidenced by the fact we are even discussing it!

However, the comparison you make between the gospels and a similar report of a Greek from 35 years ago is not a fair comparison. New organisations have reporters all over the world and 35 years ago, whilst we didn't have the modern Internet and mobile phones, we certainly had telephones. if, 35 years ago, a guy in Greece started preaching like Jesus is supposed to have done, we would hear about it quite soon.

The gospels may not be an historical record, indeed they may have been composed using OT texts to dictate the pericopae, but one has to account for how the Jesus movement turned into a Church that survives today. We have records of the followers of Crestus being in trouble in Rome after the fire there and that may represent the earliest record of Christians anywhere. It all comes down to the problem of whether the people, after 70CE when the population was chucked out of Palestine, would have accepted the stories despite the problems with them? If we think the stories are too weak to be believed, then were people at that time more gullible? They were certainly less educated and likely illiterate but they could still think.

Now as to whether this is the work of god or not is another question. If it was, then he really messed up with it as the accounts produced by the gospel writers are really quite different although sharing quite a few pericopae. I'm not including the birth narratives in this as they are likely later additions. As an atheist, I don't think that the evidence stacks up at all - that this is the work of men who wanted to break with Judaism and the sacrificial cult but didn't want to stop believing in god. In a way it is ironic that having started a new religion, Judaism, after 70CE and the loss of the temple, turned into a religion that the dissidents would likely have been quite happy with.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2014, 05:59:15 AM »
@wheels5894

Evidence that many people believe weird stuff, is not in any way evidence about the reality of the stuff itself. To argue for that is an argumentam ad populam. The historicity of Jesus followers is not the same as the historicity of Jesus.

By placing the evidence against a contemporary background you can assess for yourself if you would believe such a huge claim now with the same amount of evidence available. If no, the question is why you should believe it with that kind of evidence when the events are placed back in time 2000 years. The question is not if it is likely that a claim that big would go undocumented for 35 years nowadays.

Of course we have all kinds of new media and technology now, and we would hear about such feats sooner. So what? Does that mean that we should lower our standards for evidence for all encompassing claims when it is about claims made 2000 years ago?

And the question about historicity of Jesus should not be mixed up with the question how a movement with dogmatic teachings can survive that long. The reilgion that denies the Jesus claims made in the NT, Judaism, did not wither with the rise of christianity, it also surives to this day.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2014, 06:22:33 AM »
Dark Rabbit

I am in no way suggesting that I accept the stories about Jesus. What I am saying is that, compared with today with all the media coverage round the world, the 1st century people would be poorly placed to argue against stories like the gospels provide. The only way of knowing things was word of mouth - obviously the people were mostly illiterate.

It is likely that most people who saw Jesus, if he existed, would not have been alive when the gospels started to be written yet it is hard to think that all would have died. The gospels would have to be written with knowledge that someone might be around to say it was nonsense.  Having said that, it is quite possible that Jesus never existed and that he was made up but that brings us to a different territory.

If Jesus was invented, did Paul (or whoever wrote the letters) invent Jesus? The only evidence we have of Paul is that his name is attached to letters, we have nothing else. The dating of the letters is based on the letters themselves as well as Acts but Paul could have also been invented. Well maybe Q came up with the idea of Jesus (if you subscribe to Q that is) Maybe it was Mark. on the whole I would have thought the most likely explanation is that Jesus did exist and was an itinerant preacher, like lots of others, who was crucified by the Romans for rabble rousing at the festival. The NT then expanded this basic story using the OT as the basis for the stories about Jesus.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)