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Offline junebug72

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Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« on: March 02, 2014, 06:17:13 AM »
As an agnostic believer in God/Gods I have studied/tried on many different religious beliefs.  Christianity being the first; raised forced Baptist.  When I came back to the belief in a God/Gods, I studied the story of Jesus out of the bible.  I formed an opinion.  I can't say that I agree with the idea that Jesus was a God.  A son of a God yes,  we all are if you believe in God/Gods, I can live with that.

It seems to me the sacrifice Jesus made was more substantial than if he were a God.  I think the story was twisted to start a new religion.  I mean really you are going to trust a murderer of Christians to teach you right from wrong.  That biblical fact I remember disturbing me as young as 11/12 years old.

Do you need to believe in Jesus to believe in God, no I don't think so. I don't believe Mary was a virgin.  A woman can have intercourse 5-6 times before a hymen is removed.  Joseph could have been a short short man. lol

I think Christians cling to religion because that religion promises a second coming.  A way to avoid death.  That's not really fair to all the previous generations now is it.  There is a lot to learn by accepting our mortality.  A deeper appreciation of life and maybe then each other. 

It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

I think for a man to believe that his bad behavior was "bought and paid for" by someone else is a self-centered fool.  I think the focus should be on the life not the death of Jesus.  To me his life was about non-religion being better than a world with religion and he gave his life up to prove it.  No religion does not mean NO God/Gods.

Please Christians if I'm wrong enlighten me.

JB

Please tell Traveler and Betelnut the name of the gel is Vol-ta-ren.  I hyphenated because I'm trying everything to get this info posted.  Thanks.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 04:49:50 PM »
Quote
It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Would you mind expanding on this point, please?  I am genuinely confused how loving Jesus and participating in a religious practice is a dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 02:04:26 PM »
Quote
It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Would you mind expanding on this point, please?  I am genuinely confused how loving Jesus and participating in a religious practice is a dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

I sure will.  What I got from the story of Jesus was that he opposed religion.  His life was taken by religion.  So to have a religion in that name is dishonorable, IMO.

Kind of like naming a bar by the name of a child killed by a drunk driver.

I believe Jesus wanted us to honor him by being kind to others, by not judging others and by showing mercy.  Most of all by not being religious but be spiritual.

Why do you think Jesus told that one guy not to tell what happened to him.  Wasn't it the guy who was possessed?  Anyway I thought it was because he was being modest about his power to heal.  We can use this example now in our own lives.  There is not much humble about churches.  Even the denim ones. 

Joy,

JB

PS...Sorry it took so long to reply.  I thought I had a dead thread. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2014, 03:55:20 PM »
I sure will.  What I got from the story of Jesus was that he opposed religion.
I think this is perhaps the strangest claim I have ever seen. I have absolutely no idea in which way your mind works. "Astonishment" is hardly the word.

The character Jesus is shown not as a man who opposes religion but a man who opposes the religion of the Pharisees and Sadducees - basically Orthodox Jews. His philosophy is summed up in "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

To put it another way, He believed that it was possible to lead a good life and enter heaven, even if you never listened to a preachers of Judaism. His idea was to give a few words of guidance to those whose lives were beset and infested with ritual: rituals that had become meaningless and an obstacle to progress.

The Jews wanted him dead because he was a troublemaker, persuading people not to spend their money at the synagogue. They had vested interests and they were fundamentalists who knew they were right without thinking about anything that they said, and answered everything with "Godsaidit".

The religion bit creeps in when Jesus gives hints that He is God's son and will redeem the world by his death[1] It is also backed up by smart-ass answers to the Pharisees and Sadducees, doing a few miracles, and advising people to pray in private (which is free) - the result of this is that they will go to heaven when they're dead and if they don't live after death they can have their money back by filling in a simple application form.

I think you are confusing "religion" and "commercially organised religion."
 1. Don't ask, nobody sees the logic
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 03:58:55 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 09:30:22 PM »
I sure will.  What I got from the story of Jesus was that he opposed religion.
I think this is perhaps the strangest claim I have ever seen. I have absolutely no idea in which way your mind works. "Astonishment" is hardly the word.

The character Jesus is shown not as a man who opposes religion but a man who opposes the religion of the Pharisees and Sadducees - basically Orthodox Jews. His philosophy is summed up in "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

To put it another way, He believed that it was possible to lead a good life and enter heaven, even if you never listened to a preachers of Judaism. His idea was to give a few words of guidance to those whose lives were beset and infested with ritual: rituals that had become meaningless and an obstacle to progress.

The Jews wanted him dead because he was a troublemaker, persuading people not to spend their money at the synagogue. They had vested interests and they were fundamentalists who knew they were right without thinking about anything that they said, and answered everything with "Godsaidit".

The religion bit creeps in when Jesus gives hints that He is God's son and will redeem the world by his death[1] It is also backed up by smart-ass answers to the Pharisees and Sadducees, doing a few miracles, and advising people to pray in private (which is free) - the result of this is that they will go to heaven when they're dead and if they don't live after death they can have their money back by filling in a simple application form.

I think you are confusing "religion" and "commercially organised religion."
 1. Don't ask, nobody sees the logic

Throwing some adjectives in there doesn't make Jesus not against religion.  It makes Jesus against "commercially organised religion".  I have never known a religion that wasn't commercially organised and Christianity is at the top of that list.  It became a religion that was forced by governments and Kings.  Even after men fought and died for religious freedom from that tyranny women were burned at the stake for being "accused" of witchery.

If I remember correctly a Pharisee was the "preacher" the Sadducee was the record keeper.

Jesus was causing trouble because he challenged the status quo of their religious propaganda/Moses/OT laws.

They answered godsaidit because of their greed and ego.  Those invested interests you mentioned.  Religion made them powerful rich men.  Jesus threatened their livelihood; religion.

I for one believe the story of Jesus is embellished in order for new men to profit from the love people had for Jesus.  They took advantage of his death instead of honoring it. 

Furthermore, Jesus was a Jew and I be dog gone if they don't put a white man on all their crosses; blonde hair blue eyed Jesus.  geeze...

Joy,joy,joy some extra for you GB,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 12:24:53 PM »
Quote
It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Would you mind expanding on this point, please?  I am genuinely confused how loving Jesus and participating in a religious practice is a dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Do you concede that religion in Christ's name is a dishonor?  If so; would you like to debate that?

Seriously,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 09:01:59 PM »
Quote
It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Would you mind expanding on this point, please?  I am genuinely confused how loving Jesus and participating in a religious practice is a dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Do you concede that religion in Christ's name is a dishonor?  If so; would you like to debate that?

Seriously,

JB

I don't believe religion in Christ's name is a dishonor.  I would prefer not to debate but will be glad to exchange views / ideas on the topic if you wish.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 12:27:13 PM »
Quote
It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Would you mind expanding on this point, please?  I am genuinely confused how loving Jesus and participating in a religious practice is a dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Do you concede that religion in Christ's name is a dishonor?  If so; would you like to debate that?

Seriously,

JB

I don't believe religion in Christ's name is a dishonor.  I would prefer not to debate but will be glad to exchange views / ideas on the topic if you wish.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Why do you believe this OCG?

I told you why I believe it is. 

Thanks,

JB



















Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2014, 06:11:00 AM »
Quote
It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Would you mind expanding on this point, please?  I am genuinely confused how loving Jesus and participating in a religious practice is a dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Do you concede that religion in Christ's name is a dishonor?  If so; would you like to debate that?

Seriously,

JB

I don't believe religion in Christ's name is a dishonor.  I would prefer not to debate but will be glad to exchange views / ideas on the topic if you wish.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Why do you believe this OCG?

I told you why I believe it is. 

Thanks,

JB

The churches I have belonged to over the years all had a common goal of wanting to apply the teachings of Jesus.  This can be distilled into being loving and compassionate to others as well as worshipping God. 

As such, I don't see where such goals are dishonorable.  What am I missing?

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2014, 07:24:36 AM »
Do you concede that religion in Christ's name is a dishonor? 

Interesting topic, Junebug.  I'm reading it with interest.

I think it might be useful if you defined what you mean by "religion", with emphasis on how relgion is different from a set of beliefs or teachings?  For example, at what point does the agreement of two or more people on what god is and wants, turn into a religion? 

I suspect that may be where OCG's confusion lies, that you mean something different from him when you use the term "religion".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2014, 07:36:56 AM »

If I remember correctly a Pharisee was the "preacher" the Sadducee was the record keeper.


Your memory suffers from perhaps not knowing in the first instance.

The Pharisees were a Jewish populist political party, who were always out of power, much like the Greens. The Sadducees were the collaborator political party, who were always in power, because (a) they did what the occupiers wanted, and (b) believed what was written in the texts. Sadducees held to the religion documented in the Old Testament, and so did not believe in "The Resurrection", because it is not documented in the Old Testament. Pharisees, made up their own interpretation of the Law, and faked a few texts. They wanted progress, but the Law was written down, and endorsed by God, thus hampering their ability to change any of it. In some way I can't fathom, the Pharisees were "non creedal", which means they believed just about any shit they could come up with. In other words, they were in disarray, but respected by the populace, because they offered hope, and were not in bed with the collaborators, and preached new interpretations of the Law, which would have been a millstone.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2014, 07:44:21 AM »

If I remember correctly a Pharisee was the "preacher" the Sadducee was the record keeper.


Your memory suffers from perhaps not knowing in the first instance.

The Pharisees were a Jewish populist political party, who were always out of power, much like the Greens. The Sadducees were the collaborator political party, who were always in power, because (a) they did what the occupiers wanted, and (b) believed what was written in the texts. Sadducees held to the religion documented in the Old Testament, and so did not believe in "The Resurrection", because it is not documented in the Old Testament. Pharisees, made up their own interpretation of the Law, and faked a few texts. They wanted progress, but the Law was written down, and endorsed by God, thus hampering their ability to change any of it. In some way I can't fathom, the Pharisees were "non creedal", which means they believed just about any shit they could come up with. In other words, they were in disarray, but respected by the populace, because they offered hope, and were not in bed with the collaborators, and preached new interpretations of the Law, which would have been a millstone.

If you are interested in an in-depth study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 11:42:31 AM »

The churches I have belonged to over the years all had a common goal of wanting to apply the teachings of Jesus.  This can be distilled into being loving and compassionate to others as well as worshipping God. 

As such, I don't see where such goals are dishonorable.  What am I missing?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

History...The history behind religion; especially Christianity. 

I define religion as a society controlling, organized, set of belief in god/gods.   Worshiping, sacrificing or ritualistic practices to earn favor of the chosen deity.

To say there is a need to worship God is to say God is vain to say the least.  We did not ask to be created.  If God exists and if God created us I don't believe it was to have a species worship it.

Jesus never said to worship God but to only believe.  I believe it was when he was asked what the most important commandment was.

Point 3 RELIGION killed him.  Was it not religious laws he was accused of breaking?  If I was one of the women killed by Christians I would certainly not want a new religion started in my name.  That's the most important lesson I believe Jesus taught.  That religion is bad bad bad bad bad.

I do not mean that you are dishonorable for being a Christian but that religion in itself is a dishonor to HIM.  The MAN Jesus of Nazareth. 

I think he died so that we could learn the harm religion can cause.  Christianity has caused lots and lots of harm in HIS name.  Politicians coming to mind first of all.  In our times and times before.  The murders of all those innocent people, women accused of witchcraft men beheaded for blasphemy.  The list goes on and on. 

Preachers getting paid to preach false doctrine. It really pisses me off what mankind has done to Jesus's name. 

I believe the men that created Christianity had the most dishonorable of intentions.

Paul wrote in Ephesians, I think, about the harm of religion.  I believe our fore fathers tried to write our constitution in a way that would protect us from the harms of religion but they got over ruled by egotistical fools that used the power of belief for their own personal profit, i.e. slavery and capitalism.

Seriously,

JB



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2014, 11:48:16 AM »

If I remember correctly a Pharisee was the "preacher" the Sadducee was the record keeper.


Your memory suffers from perhaps not knowing in the first instance.

The Pharisees were a Jewish populist political party, who were always out of power, much like the Greens. The Sadducees were the collaborator political party, who were always in power, because (a) they did what the occupiers wanted, and (b) believed what was written in the texts. Sadducees held to the religion documented in the Old Testament, and so did not believe in "The Resurrection", because it is not documented in the Old Testament. Pharisees, made up their own interpretation of the Law, and faked a few texts. They wanted progress, but the Law was written down, and endorsed by God, thus hampering their ability to change any of it. In some way I can't fathom, the Pharisees were "non creedal", which means they believed just about any shit they could come up with. In other words, they were in disarray, but respected by the populace, because they offered hope, and were not in bed with the collaborators, and preached new interpretations of the Law, which would have been a millstone.

I haven't read the bible in 12 years.  So sue me.  I put that awful thing away and I don't look back. 

Really thanks for clearing that up.  I have said many times it's impressive how much atheist know about the bible and other religious text as well.  Most impressive.

Smiles,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2014, 12:18:49 PM »
Interesting topic, Junebug.  I'm reading it with interest.

I'm honored.


I think it might be useful if you defined what you mean by "religion", with emphasis on how relgion is different from a set of beliefs or teachings?

I think it is different than belief, belief is in the mind.  Religion does teach, a knowledge it does not possess, but it's teaching. 



For example, at what point does the agreement of two or more people on what god is and wants, turn into a religion?
 


I'm not sure another question counts as an example, lol.  Who cares, right?  It's a damn good question.  I'm going to have to think about that one.  I would have to say when they start trying to diminish free will. 


I suspect that may be where OCG's confusion lies, that you mean something different from him when you use the term "religion".

I am spiritual not religious means I use only what I can rational in my own spirit/mind to guide me to God; the source of life.  I genuinely want to be a good person so I can not believe in the biblical God.  I just can't.   My brain rejects that interpretation of God.

I look forward to your critique Anfauglir.

Smiles,

JB




Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2014, 12:19:57 PM »
History...The history behind religion; especially Christianity. 

I define religion as a society controlling, organized, set of belief in god/gods.   Worshiping, sacrificing or ritualistic practices to earn favor of the chosen deity.

To say there is a need to worship God is to say God is vain to say the least.  We did not ask to be created.  If God exists and if God created us I don't believe it was to have a species worship it.

Jesus never said to worship God but to only believe.  I believe it was when he was asked what the most important commandment was.

Point 3 RELIGION killed him.  Was it not religious laws he was accused of breaking?  If I was one of the women killed by Christians I would certainly not want a new religion started in my name.  That's the most important lesson I believe Jesus taught.  That religion is bad bad bad bad bad.

I do not mean that you are dishonorable for being a Christian but that religion in itself is a dishonor to HIM.  The MAN Jesus of Nazareth. 

I think he died so that we could learn the harm religion can cause. Christianity has caused lots and lots of harm in HIS name.  Politicians coming to mind first of all.  In our times and times before.  The murders of all those innocent people, women accused of witchcraft men beheaded for blasphemy.  The list goes on and on. 

Preachers getting paid to preach false doctrine. It really pisses me off what mankind has done to Jesus's name. 

I believe the men that created Christianity had the most dishonorable of intentions.

Paul wrote in Ephesians, I think, about the harm of religion.  I believe our fore fathers tried to write our constitution in a way that would protect us from the harms of religion but they got over ruled by egotistical fools that used the power of belief for their own personal profit, i.e. slavery and capitalism.

Seriously,

JB

Well, I'll be damned (hehehe  :P) - except for the sentence I underlined, I think I actually agree with this whole post!
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2014, 12:43:26 PM »
^^Thanks Jag.  I'm honored.^^

May I ask why you disagree with the underlined statement?

Big Smiles,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 01:08:43 PM »
Of course you can ask!
1. I'm not convinced that a single person is the source of the Jesus story. so I can't get on board with "his" death as a factual account of history.
2. Given that the above is really mostly irrelevant in light of my atheism, for the sake of discussion I would say that I'm also unconvinced that there was a "purpose" to his death. I could much more easily believe the story without the inclusion of a deity and find some genuine value to it - death with a "purpose" beyond everyone's inevitable end makes little sense to me. He ended up dead, and the world did not become a better place as a result of that specific death, so what purpose was served?

Ironically, the above is my position for many of the same reasons you give for not being religious. The whole sacrifice thing just makes my skin crawl, and without the bible to back it up, who would ever believe such a claim otherwise? God required Jesus to die by torture so 2,000 years later we could have "prosperity gospel" Republicans? That's a pretty poor excuse for a God.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2014, 01:23:49 PM »
To say there is a need to worship God is to say God is vain to say the least.  We did not ask to be created.  If God exists and if God created us I don't believe it was to have a species worship it.

^^^^ I completely agree junebug. 

Any god which demands, desires or accepts worship is a vain and petty god and does not deserve worship.

I think the whole idea of worship is more about the leaders of a church placing themselves in their "God's" place.  When they ask for the flock to worship or praise "God", they are either consiously or unconciously asking the flock to worship or praise the leader of the church.  The leader of the church views themself as "God" and the flock is worshiping or praising them, not "God".  The leaders will never admit this, but you can see it in their actions.

It is an emotional high that the leaders get, and if you ask them how they feel when the flock worship and praise "God", this will become clear.

Jesus never said to worship God but to only believe.  I believe it was when he was asked what the most important commandment was.

I appologize for perhaps throwing a wrench into this line of thinking.  I agree that many of the key statements by Jesus seem to indicate that all that was necessary was belief and not worship or praise.

Unfortunately the Bible says many things, which allows anyone to pick out what they want.  One person can rightfully believe that Jesus never said to worship “God” but to only believe, another person can just as rightfully believe that Jesus did say to worship “God”. 

Where does Jesus say to worship “God”?  Well I could be wrong, and am limited to the KJV of the Bible online at the moment, so if someone can correct me, please do.

John Chapter 4 verses 21 to 24

21 - Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 – Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 – But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 – God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So basically, the story goes that Jesus was sitting by a well which was built by Jacob (from the OT) and a woman from the occupying nation comes over to get some water.  Jesus says “my water is better”, figures out the girl lies about having a husband and she doesn’t know what the heck she is worshiping, but Jesus and his followers do know.  So Jesus tells the woman to worship “God” and that “God” seeks worship and of course the woman believes him and starts spreading the word.

Of course these passages in the KJV could have been translated wrong.  I’m not a translation expert.  Still, even if it is translated wrong, someone could certainly read the KJV and think it is correct to worship “God”.

My sources:  http://www.openbible.info/topics/praise_and_worship and http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-Chapter-4/
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2014, 03:33:09 PM »
Let me stew on that until morning.  Dang I had to open that bible.  Oh well, I won't let it harm me.

JB
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2014, 07:28:26 AM »

John Chapter 4 verses 21 to 24

21 - Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 – Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 – But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 – God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So basically, the story goes that Jesus was sitting by a well which was built by Jacob (from the OT) and a woman from the occupying nation comes over to get some water.  Jesus says “my water is better”, figures out the girl lies about having a husband and she doesn’t know what the heck she is worshiping, but Jesus and his followers do know.  So Jesus tells the woman to worship “God” and that “God” seeks worship and of course the woman believes him and starts spreading the word.

Of course these passages in the KJV could have been translated wrong.  I’m not a translation expert.  Still, even if it is translated wrong, someone could certainly read the KJV and think it is correct to worship “God”.

My sources:  http://www.openbible.info/topics/praise_and_worship and http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-Chapter-4/

As always Seven you're on point.  I think this scripture can be interpreted as follows but I am aware that many will interpret it differently.

I think Jesus here is saying the same thing I'm saying in lay men's terms.  That you're worshiping but you know not what and neither do the Jews.  Meaning their worship is in vain, they do not know God, IMO.

But...then he says salvation is of the Jews.  It just sticks out there.  Since he just said the Jews did not know God I'm taking that to mean salvation is of Jews not of God.

In spirit, not in a church...In truth, admit you lack knowledge; the church's biggest mistake.  Is this not the exact opposite of what we see from the Church?  I think this scripture supports my claim that Jesus taught us to be spiritual NOT religious and many many Christians ignore this basic lesson and harm society with their disrespect.  They harm the name of the MAN Jesus.

I hope OCG will share his knowledge of scripture on this.

Smiles,

JB



   
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2014, 06:42:32 AM »
Well, hummmmm, I wonder why only 1 Christian has responded and vaguely so. 

Do you think deep down inside they know this philosophy is right and they are wrong?  I mean; if your going to"honor Jesus" is this not a more proper way to do it?  Fight religion, don't make it!!!

Very Curious,

JB
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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2014, 11:03:52 AM »
As an agnostic believer in God/Gods I have studied/tried on many different religious beliefs.  Christianity being the first; raised forced Baptist.  When I came back to the belief in a God/Gods, I studied the story of Jesus out of the bible.  I formed an opinion.  I can't say that I agree with the idea that Jesus was a God.  A son of a God yes,  we all are if you believe in God/Gods, I can live with that.

It seems to me the sacrifice Jesus made was more substantial than if he were a God.  I think the story was twisted to start a new religion.  I mean really you are going to trust a murderer of Christians to teach you right from wrong.  That biblical fact I remember disturbing me as young as 11/12 years old.

Do you need to believe in Jesus to believe in God, no I don't think so. I don't believe Mary was a virgin.  A woman can have intercourse 5-6 times before a hymen is removed.  Joseph could have been a short short man. lol

I think Christians cling to religion because that religion promises a second coming.  A way to avoid death.  That's not really fair to all the previous generations now is it.  There is a lot to learn by accepting our mortality.  A deeper appreciation of life and maybe then each other. 

It's maddening to me if this story of Jesus is true that any one that Loves Jesus would participate in a religious practice.  I think that's the most dishonorable way to appreciate his sacrifice.

I think for a man to believe that his bad behavior was "bought and paid for" by someone else is a self-centered fool.  I think the focus should be on the life not the death of Jesus.  To me his life was about non-religion being better than a world with religion and he gave his life up to prove it.  No religion does not mean NO God/Gods.

Please Christians if I'm wrong enlighten me.

JB

Please tell Traveler and Betelnut the name of the gel is Vol-ta-ren.  I hyphenated because I'm trying everything to get this info posted.  Thanks.

I will answer some things, as I know Christianity better than any Christian who could answer, anyway.

Quote
It seems to me the sacrifice Jesus made was more substantial than if he were a God.

Moral substantiveness is not the issue. Jesus was a pure cold-pressed virgin lamb. Only a God could be pure enough to die and erase our sins. After his death, he then underwent undocumented things for 3 days. A human couldn't do that. Another way of looking at it, is that Jesus, being free of sin, except for when he said he was not good, was going to live for infinity years. Remember he had the spell of regeneration, which he could cast at any time on himself, or an Orc of less than warrior class. His death was hence, an infinite sacrifice, because he still had that card face down on the table, and no other player had the "Obtain Spell" artifact.

Quote
I mean really you are going to trust a murderer of Christians to teach you right from wrong.

I'm not following you here, unless you are talking about Paul. He seems to have admitted to murdering Christians, or is at least reputed to have, since it makes more poetic sense.

Quote
Do you need to believe in Jesus to believe in God, no I don't think so.

Occam's Razor is not needed at this point. It's not a matter of optimizing the religion for personal taste. Jesus simply had to be a God, even though he said he wasn't, when he said he wasn't good.

Quote
I don't believe Mary was a virgin.  A woman can have intercourse 5-6 times before a hymen is removed.  Joseph could have been a short short man. lol

Matthew spotted that it would have fulfilled the Immanuel prophecy (if you were on drugs) in some boring part of Isaiah. Since it was a prophecy, Jesus must have fulfilled it, somehow. The prophecy refers to a young woman, who got pregnant. Since it would be a sin for a young woman to get pregnant without a husband, her husband must have been God. She couldn't have had sex with a rapist, or passer-by, because she bore Jesus Christ, who could not have been born from a rapist, because he would not be of the house of David (or the Rod of Jessie)., unless that rapist happened to be coincidently from the house of David.

It all falls out in the logic - except the part about how a virgin can have someone from the house of David. Therefore Mary must have been from the house of David, and we briefly switch to a matriarch model. In which case, she could have been raped, and still passed on the house of David.

Quote
I think Christians cling to religion because that religion promises a second coming.

That's more or less true. Without the second coming, they would be Jews, and there is no point to being a Jew, as evidenced by there being no Jews.

Quote
That's not really fair to all the previous generations now is it.

Fairness is not an issue. God can do what he likes. Since I benefit fro the rule changes, I can be OK with that. It's like a new lenient tax law, or the parable of the vineyard workers. If you were OK with things prior to Jesus, then you were perfectly free to opt out.

Quote
There is a lot to learn by accepting our mortality.

Most Christians do accept their mortality, because they have little faith that there is life after death, or that they have obtained their free pass.

In the case that they don't accept their mortality, then they can make up some other reason why they are really special and should be saved.

Quote
I think for a man to believe that his bad behavior was "bought and paid for" by someone else is a self-centered fool.

They don't believe that. They only half believe that. You are saved by Grace, if you do good works as well. It's a free gift, that you have to pay for, by being a slave of God. You naturally want to be a slave of God, because you have been saved from hell. Though, Paul doesn't mention hell.

http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hellfactor/art_paulsteachingonhell.htm

Quote
A deeper appreciation of life and maybe then each other.

Christians can gain a deeper appreciation of life by having a wild sex and drugs phase, prior to becoming delusional sanctimonious narcissists.

Quote
To me his life was about non-religion being better than a world with religion and he gave his life up to prove it.

Jesus only APPEARS to condemn organised religion, because he was superior to all of it. Being a revolutionary, he could not condone anything that wasn't invented by him. It's OK for the church to accumulate wealth, because it acts as a home for monks, who can be without money, without having to do any real work, or take any risks.

That about wraps it up.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2014, 07:01:52 PM »

John Chapter 4 verses 21 to 24

21 - Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 – Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 – But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 – God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So basically, the story goes that Jesus was sitting by a well which was built by Jacob (from the OT) and a woman from the occupying nation comes over to get some water.  Jesus says “my water is better”, figures out the girl lies about having a husband and she doesn’t know what the heck she is worshiping, but Jesus and his followers do know.  So Jesus tells the woman to worship “God” and that “God” seeks worship and of course the woman believes him and starts spreading the word.

Of course these passages in the KJV could have been translated wrong.  I’m not a translation expert.  Still, even if it is translated wrong, someone could certainly read the KJV and think it is correct to worship “God”.

My sources:  http://www.openbible.info/topics/praise_and_worship and http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-Chapter-4/

As always Seven you're on point.  I think this scripture can be interpreted as follows but I am aware that many will interpret it differently.

I think Jesus here is saying the same thing I'm saying in lay men's terms.  That you're worshiping but you know not what and neither do the Jews.  Meaning their worship is in vain, they do not know God, IMO.

But...then he says salvation is of the Jews.  It just sticks out there.  Since he just said the Jews did not know God I'm taking that to mean salvation is of Jews not of God.

In spirit, not in a church...In truth, admit you lack knowledge; the church's biggest mistake.  Is this not the exact opposite of what we see from the Church?  I think this scripture supports my claim that Jesus taught us to be spiritual NOT religious and many many Christians ignore this basic lesson and harm society with their disrespect.  They harm the name of the MAN Jesus.

I hope OCG will share his knowledge of scripture on this.

Smiles,

JB



 

Sorry for taking so long to get to this.  Just a busy time.

The verses cited are very interesting and, in my opinion, the interpretation you posted may be a bit off. 

If you take the entire chapter, you see where Jesus is in Samaria talking with a Samaritan woman.  The Samaritans were the 10 tribes that broke away from the other 2 when Solomon's son became king some centuries before.  They set up a rival temple in the town of Samaria as I recall.  It is known also as the Northern Kingdom.

The two camps were enemies until the Northern Kingdom was conquered by the Assyrians.  The Southern Kingdom (which had Jerusalem as it's capital) survived for some years until being conquered by the Babylonians (who had conquered the Assyrians).  The Babylonians were, in turn, conquered by the Persians.  After awhile the Persians allowed the Jews who were there in modern day Iraq to migrate back to their homeland. 

Among those were Ezra and Nehemiah.  As I recall things, Ezra, was intent on restoring the Jerusalem temple as THE temple.  As he went through Samaria he informed them that they did not have a legitimate claim to anything and that the true temple and faith was in Jerusalem.  The Samaritans were less than enthusiastic over this observation and basically said they would continue their ways of worship regardless of Ezra and any others heading down to Jerusalem. 

Thus, the Samaritans were bitter enemies with the Southern Kingdom because they represented a threat as to who had the true religion. 

This chapter seems to deal more with the Samaritans and who has the true faith. 

There are those who say verses 23 and 24 were added by the author to basically show the Samaritans were wrong.  Others say Jesus actually said these words.  No way to prove one way or the other. 

End of lecture. :)

OldChurchGuy
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2014, 05:31:03 AM »

Sorry for taking so long to get to this.  Just a busy time.

The verses cited are very interesting and, in my opinion, the interpretation you posted may be a bit off. 

If you take the entire chapter, you see where Jesus is in Samaria talking with a Samaritan woman.  The Samaritans were the 10 tribes that broke away from the other 2 when Solomon's son became king some centuries before.  They set up a rival temple in the town of Samaria as I recall.  It is known also as the Northern Kingdom.

The two camps were enemies until the Northern Kingdom was conquered by the Assyrians.  The Southern Kingdom (which had Jerusalem as it's capital) survived for some years until being conquered by the Babylonians (who had conquered the Assyrians).  The Babylonians were, in turn, conquered by the Persians.  After awhile the Persians allowed the Jews who were there in modern day Iraq to migrate back to their homeland. 

Among those were Ezra and Nehemiah.  As I recall things, Ezra, was intent on restoring the Jerusalem temple as THE temple.  As he went through Samaria he informed them that they did not have a legitimate claim to anything and that the true temple and faith was in Jerusalem.  The Samaritans were less than enthusiastic over this observation and basically said they would continue their ways of worship regardless of Ezra and any others heading down to Jerusalem. 

Thus, the Samaritans were bitter enemies with the Southern Kingdom because they represented a threat as to who had the true religion. 

This chapter seems to deal more with the Samaritans and who has the true faith. 

There are those who say verses 23 and 24 were added by the author to basically show the Samaritans were wrong.  Others say Jesus actually said these words.  No way to prove one way or the other. 

End of lecture. :)

OldChurchGuy

I don't feel lectured. ;)

So you really believe God is Vain and desires worship? 

How do we know that 21 and 22 are not embellishments as well?

I stand by my original analysis.  That neither the Jews or the Samaritans knew God.

Religion is a dishonor to HIS NAME.  OCG has not proven otherwise.  Not even close.

Ever more Curious,

JB

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2014, 05:45:41 AM »

Sorry for taking so long to get to this.  Just a busy time.

The verses cited are very interesting and, in my opinion, the interpretation you posted may be a bit off. 

If you take the entire chapter, you see where Jesus is in Samaria talking with a Samaritan woman.  The Samaritans were the 10 tribes that broke away from the other 2 when Solomon's son became king some centuries before.  They set up a rival temple in the town of Samaria as I recall.  It is known also as the Northern Kingdom.

The two camps were enemies until the Northern Kingdom was conquered by the Assyrians.  The Southern Kingdom (which had Jerusalem as it's capital) survived for some years until being conquered by the Babylonians (who had conquered the Assyrians).  The Babylonians were, in turn, conquered by the Persians.  After awhile the Persians allowed the Jews who were there in modern day Iraq to migrate back to their homeland. 

Among those were Ezra and Nehemiah.  As I recall things, Ezra, was intent on restoring the Jerusalem temple as THE temple.  As he went through Samaria he informed them that they did not have a legitimate claim to anything and that the true temple and faith was in Jerusalem.  The Samaritans were less than enthusiastic over this observation and basically said they would continue their ways of worship regardless of Ezra and any others heading down to Jerusalem. 

Thus, the Samaritans were bitter enemies with the Southern Kingdom because they represented a threat as to who had the true religion. 

This chapter seems to deal more with the Samaritans and who has the true faith. 

There are those who say verses 23 and 24 were added by the author to basically show the Samaritans were wrong.  Others say Jesus actually said these words.  No way to prove one way or the other. 

End of lecture. :)

OldChurchGuy

I don't feel lectured. ;)

So you really believe God is Vain and desires worship? 

How do we know that 21 and 22 are not embellishments as well?

I stand by my original analysis.  That neither the Jews or the Samaritans knew God.

Religion is a dishonor to HIS NAME.  OCG has not proven otherwise.  Not even close.

Ever more Curious,

JB

I don't mind worshipping God.  I see myself doing it voluntarily rather than being forced to. 

Interesting view point.  May it serve you well and give you much joy and peace.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 05:21:05 AM »

I don't mind worshipping God.  I see myself doing it voluntarily rather than being forced to. 

Interesting view point.  May it serve you well and give you much joy and peace.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Even if the repercussions of worshiping force many to conclude there is no God or that God can not accept them as is?

Is that okay with you?

It seems to me as long as you have studied the bible you have missed the message of Jesus!

Still Curious,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 05:56:14 AM »

I don't mind worshipping God.  I see myself doing it voluntarily rather than being forced to. 

Interesting view point.  May it serve you well and give you much joy and peace.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Even if the repercussions of worshiping force many to conclude there is no God or that God can not accept them as is?

Is that okay with you?

It seems to me as long as you have studied the bible you have missed the message of Jesus!

Still Curious,

JB

To me, it depends on the origins of those repercussions.  If a church is one which does not tolerate people as they are and the questions they come with, then I think the church is at fault.  On the other hand, if a church welcomes people and questions but the person asking the questions cannot find satisfactory answers and so leaves, then that is the persons choice.

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus, God or man? Christians Enlighten Me Plz
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 09:03:15 AM »
quote author=junebug72 link=topic=26446.msg604666#msg604666 date=1394212729]
I look forward to your critique Anfauglir.
[/quote]

Apologies for the delay.

I think (religion) is different than belief, belief is in the mind.  Religion does teach, a knowledge it does not possess, but it's teaching. 

I would have to say (agreement turns into religion) when they start trying to diminish free will

I use only what I can rational in my own spirit/mind to guide me to God; the source of life. 

I'm presuming that what you mean by the bolded part is telling people "you must worship like this, because this is what god definitely wants"?  An attempt to stop them from considering and coming to god themselves, but instead to surrender conscious thought and just "follow the party line"?

Sure.  Sounds at first glance to be a dreadful thing to do, especially if the message of god they are conveying is in any way wrong.

Consider this hypothetical though.  Through your deliberations, let's say you have come to the exact right conclusions about god, in every way, shape, and form - you are 100% right.  And let's say that - if left to my own devices - I will come to a different and (therefore) INcorrect view of god.  By watching me, you can see me drifting ever further from the true picture of god that you know is correct.

Which would be the better path to take?  To continue to let me - and potentially billions like me - drift further and further away from god?  Or for you to "become a religion", to set down exactly what your god wants, and to tell me and others "THIS is what god wants - please don't question or change what I say, or I guarantee you will be moving away from god"?

An individual, no matter how correct their views may be, has NO chance of swaying the entire world as an individual.  And how much less possible would that be 2,000 years ago before mass communication and fast travel?  Would such an individual not be justified in setting up a "religion" that specifies exactly what god is, and how people should treat them, if they were convinced that they were 100% correct in their beliefs?  Especially if their belief was that to NOT come to god would lead to eternal consequences?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?