Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 18574 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1218 on: April 05, 2014, 05:02:12 PM »
You may be disappointed.  Yes Jehovah is all-powerful.  Lack of power is not an issue.

So there are other alternatives besides Armageddon. Omnipotence and all that. So, I'll ask you again, why is your god unable to do what it supposedly wants to do?

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round...

I will ask you, what purpose of his has failed?

This alleged God has clearly failed in getting us to believe it is real, that he have "sinned" against it, that it wants all to know and be saved, and that we must accept this "Jesus" depiction from a book. Of course I don't even like talking about some-thing which I do not think is real, but the previous sentence encompasses "X" in the following syllogism. 
"
1.) If God exists, He desires for us to know X.
2.) If God exists then He has the power to make us believe X.
3.) If God exists we should know X (given 1 & 2)
4.) We do not know X
5.) Therefore, God does not exist (given 3 & 4)"[1]

If this alleged "Jehovah" actually existed (like water exists, other people exist, and our own thinking exists) we should know it exists (as, supposedly, the angels and the alleged "Satan" do). Yet we do not know these things. If no God exists, it makes perfect sense that we do not have direct independent demonstrable experiences of this thing and that it is invisible and undetectable. But if this particular deity did in fact exist, we should all know and believe right now (just like we know and accept the reality of water).

STOP! Nope, the freewill argument doesn't work as a response because having knowledge of something does NOT negate making choices about it (again, just like the alleged "Satan and his angels" had direct knowledge and chose otherwise). So, this response is NOT a path that you (the theist) can use to rebut this argument. The most rational and sound conclusion for why we do not all know and believe this deity is actual is that it is imaginary.

Stop one more time. You might be thinking to yourself that this argument is just SPAG - that (according to you) this god can do whatever it wants and that it doesn't matter if we don't know right now because we will eventually - or some other BS response like this. NOPE. This isn't a valid response either because the book that you read and accept states the propositions in "X" quite clearly. So X is not just a projection. It is taken directly from your 'holy book' itself - and any attempts by you to spin or rationalize away those texts (by contradicting them w/ other passages, twisting them, context dropping, cherry picking, or the like) are both unreasonable and intellectually dishonest. An "all-powerful" deity that desires for a specific thing to be the case will have it, b/c he/she/it is not bound by anything and can accomplish it. But, we do not see everyone believing in Yahweh/Jehovah. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that this being is not real.
 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF_lK7BxmNU
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 05:12:58 PM by median »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1219 on: April 05, 2014, 08:55:40 PM »
If you advertise burgers people will buy more burgers.  If you advertise sex, albeit indirectly, people will have more sex.

Absurd.

1. Sex != hamburgers

2. How is that even possible?  Don't you think people are already having having as much sex as they can manage to get while still holding down a job and not starving?  If there is any such thing as a meaning to life, screwing is the one singular thing we seem to be meant to do.  Like 90% of the internet is dedicated to sex.  So I don't see how advertising is making anyone screw any more than they already are.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1220 on: April 06, 2014, 08:59:48 AM »
I think we are screwing less than ancient times, when we all slept in the same bed, and there was no Christian wowsers. Now we all have to pretend that we are having sex, to match up with the advertisments. Twelve year old children are far too busy having bulimia to worry about sex.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1221 on: April 06, 2014, 10:43:35 PM »
If you advertise burgers people will buy more burgers.  If you advertise sex, albeit indirectly, people will have more sex.

Absurd.

1. Sex != hamburgers

2. How is that even possible?  Don't you think people are already having having as much sex as they can manage to get while still holding down a job and not starving?  If there is any such thing as a meaning to life, screwing is the one singular thing we seem to be meant to do.  Like 90% of the internet is dedicated to sex.  So I don't see how advertising is making anyone screw any more than they already are.

In India and Nepal there are ancient temples in every town with images of god and goddesses having sex in every possible position. According to you, Indian people should be dropping trou and getting it on in the streets during the midday lunch break. And they should have been having wild sex in the streets for the past 3000 years that the temples have been there. Somehow they have managed to restrain themselves.

Guess who is obsessed with taking photos of the sexy temples? That's right. Foreign, mainly Christian tourists.....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1222 on: April 06, 2014, 10:55:31 PM »
As stupid and sorry as sex-based advertising it, it can't hold a candle to the uptight christian twits who insist we all wear chastity belts for life while they secretly carry on perversion after sexual perversion because they are so hung up on the subject.

You should be concerned about the false body images and other harms being done by advertising, with its idealized and airbrushed women, etc. But you should be more concerned about the christians with so many sexual hangups that they have to hope that nobody notices that they are both anti-gay and actively gay, anti-fornication and avid fornicators.

Those of us without a pretentious sexual high ground to claim also have no need to hide our actual desires. Many christians can't say that. And those that can have their panties in such a twist they can't function in normal society.

So not only are you the pot calling the kettle black, you probably have have a fetish for pots or kettles or both. That isn't healthy.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1223 on: April 07, 2014, 08:54:07 AM »
As stupid and sorry as sex-based advertising

It ain't stupid if it sells product...just sayin' Sorry?....yeah unless it is for something like condoms...it is sorry. Doublemint Gum and the Doublemint twins comes to mind as to the WTF sex to product connection.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1224 on: April 07, 2014, 08:56:27 AM »
As stupid and sorry as sex-based advertising it, it can't hold a candle to the uptight christian twits who insist we all wear chastity belts for life while they secretly carry on perversion after sexual perversion because they are so hung up on the subject.

You should be concerned about the false body images and other harms being done by advertising, with its idealized and airbrushed women, etc. But you should be more concerned about the christians with so many sexual hangups that they have to hope that nobody notices that they are both anti-gay and actively gay, anti-fornication and avid fornicators.

Those of us without a pretentious sexual high ground to claim also have no need to hide our actual desires. Many christians can't say that. And those that can have their panties in such a twist they can't function in normal society.

So not only are you the pot calling the kettle black, you probably have have a fetish for pots or kettles or both. That isn't healthy.

You had me at "hung"
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1225 on: April 07, 2014, 09:08:26 AM »
In India and Nepal there are ancient temples in every town with images of god and goddesses having sex in every possible position. According to you, Indian people should be dropping trou and getting it on in the streets during the midday lunch break.

according to whom?  Me or jstweb?  I don't think you mean me, but you quoted me.

Also, are we sure those temples are in every town?  I was under the impressions that was one specific temple, by one specific cult who was eradicated by orthodox hindus, which tends to be a bit...parochial and prudish with regards to sex. 

« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 09:41:20 AM by screwtape »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1226 on: April 07, 2014, 09:29:40 AM »
This is where Satan, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, and all of Satan's follows are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them just like there is no reason to burn death and Hades. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creation. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angels.

Pssssssst...

Just like there will be no need to keep them around later...

THERE IS NO NEED TO KEEP THEM AROUND *NOW*.
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1227 on: April 07, 2014, 09:46:16 AM »
This is where Satan, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, and all of Satan's follows are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them just like there is no reason to burn death and Hades. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creation. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angels.

Too bad god wouldn't/couldn't offer the same courtesy to those of his children (humanity) he felt obliged to smite in various cruel and malicious ways.  &)
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1228 on: April 07, 2014, 09:52:42 AM »
This is where Satan, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, and all of Satan's follows are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them just like there is no reason to burn death and Hades. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creation. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angels.

Hmmm. So gone but not forgotten. Why not? If there is no need to keep them why not erase the memory of them?
Isn't the very fact that they do still remain, in memory at least, polluting part of gods creation?

edit spelling
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 09:57:31 AM by Mrjason »

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1229 on: April 07, 2014, 09:57:10 AM »
Hmmm. So gone but not forgotten. Why not? If there is no need to keep them why not erase the memory of them?
Isn't they very fact that they do still remain, in memory at least, polluting part of gods creation?

Good point.

After all, god wouldn't want Satan's past exploits to possibly influence us impressionable and fallible human beings in the future, would he?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1230 on: April 07, 2014, 09:57:50 AM »

This is where Satan, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, and all of Satan's follows are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them just like there is no reason to burn death and Hades. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creation. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angels.

Hmmm. So gone but not forgotten. Why not? If there is no need to keep them why not erase the memory of them?
Isn't they very fact that they do still remain, in memory at least, polluting part of gods creation?

So this god was not able to create a universe without it getting polluted? Really? I thought it was supposed to be omniscient and so could have devised something that did not get polluted. Maybe omniscience does got with omnipotence so, although he knew how to do it, he didn't have the power to create an polluting universe. Either way, not really the god people keep talking about - either a bit forgetful or a bit weak really.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1231 on: April 07, 2014, 01:17:12 PM »

This is where SatanJews, his angelsZionists, the false prophetZionist lackeys, the beastGypsies, and all of Satan's followsBolsheviks are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creationthe Reich. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angelsAryan people.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1232 on: April 07, 2014, 03:55:12 PM »

This is where Satan, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, and all of Satan's follows are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them just like there is no reason to burn death and Hades. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creation. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angels.

Hmmm. So gone but not forgotten. Why not? If there is no need to keep them why not erase the memory of them?
Isn't they very fact that they do still remain, in memory at least, polluting part of gods creation?

So this god was not able to create a universe without it getting polluted? Really? I thought it was supposed to be omniscient and so could have devised something that did not get polluted. Maybe omniscience does got with omnipotence so, although he knew how to do it, he didn't have the power to create an polluting universe. Either way, not really the god people keep talking about - either a bit forgetful or a bit weak really.

Seriously when to defeat Satan's plan all God has to is show up. Yup not as some iterant Jewish heretic in the bronze age, but show up in heavenly majesty enough for people to understand that he is god,  and say "I'd like you to quit being mean to each other and to explain a few things about what I like and dislike" and that would no more take away free will than a parent telling a child about right and wrong in person, rather than through garbled instruction left through a baby sitter that has been shown to be untrustworthy from time to time.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1233 on: April 07, 2014, 04:34:02 PM »

This is where Satan, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, and all of Satan's follows are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them just like there is no reason to burn death and Hades. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creation. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angels.

Hmmm. So gone but not forgotten. Why not? If there is no need to keep them why not erase the memory of them?
Isn't they very fact that they do still remain, in memory at least, polluting part of gods creation?

So this god was not able to create a universe without it getting polluted? Really? I thought it was supposed to be omniscient and so could have devised something that did not get polluted. Maybe omniscience does got with omnipotence so, although he knew how to do it, he didn't have the power to create an polluting universe. Either way, not really the god people keep talking about - either a bit forgetful or a bit weak really.

Seriously when to defeat Satan's plan all God has to is show up. Yup not as some iterant Jewish heretic in the bronze age, but show up in heavenly majesty enough for people to understand that he is god,  and say "I'd like you to quit being mean to each other and to explain a few things about what I like and dislike" and that would no more take away free will than a parent telling a child about right and wrong in person, rather than through garbled instruction left through a baby sitter that has been shown to be untrustworthy from time to time.

But you and I know why this doesn't happen and even Jstwebbrowsing does really, if he could only admit it. It's like this, Jstwebbrowsing,

A non-existent god cannot show up at all! It's that simple. An existent god could deal with the end of the world by just showing up and sorting the sheep and goats as Matthew said. Indeed judging by the things Jesus is said to have said, that was what he thought too. The fact is that many of the people who purport to teach their flocks about this religion probably don't actually believe it to be really true. Thus we have this nonsense made up about battles and Armageddon and all that jazz. You know like we all do that this god doesn't exist (you know this because you cannot prove it to have a real existence, no even to your self.) and thus all this talk of end times.

Take it from Jesus' reported words, he'll just turn up on the cloud and do the judging and that's it.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1234 on: April 07, 2014, 09:16:35 PM »
In India and Nepal there are ancient temples in every town with images of god and goddesses having sex in every possible position. According to you, Indian people should be dropping trou and getting it on in the streets during the midday lunch break.

according to whom?  Me or jstweb?  I don't think you mean me, but you quoted me.

Also, are we sure those temples are in every town?  I was under the impressions that was one specific temple, by one specific cult who was eradicated by orthodox hindus, which tends to be a bit...parochial and prudish with regards to sex.

Sorry, not you.

 I was trying to comment on Jstweb and his problem with sexual advertising He acts as if people have only been using sexual images since 1978 or something. The Kama Sutra was written before the "sexual revolution" of the 1960's! People have always been interested in sex, fertility, virility, etc. with or without the billboards. That is why there are people.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1235 on: April 08, 2014, 06:48:09 AM »
I was trying to comment on Jstweb and his problem with sexual advertising He acts as if people have only been using sexual images since 1978 or something. The Kama Sutra was written before the "sexual revolution" of the 1960's! People have always been interested in sex, fertility, virility, etc. with or without the billboards. That is why there are people.

tots.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1236 on: April 08, 2014, 01:10:45 PM »
I am not sure you can not prove a negative.

I say there is an apple on the table.   

when you look at the table you say there is not. 

I demand you prove there is no apple there.  You point at the empty table and low and behold, upon closer inspection I see there is no apple on the table.

Now god is a little more difficult, because god is invisible, you either have to take the eyewittness's accounts as facutal or not.  There is no disproving that people claim to have seen miracles, from the parting of the red sea to the frogs raining from the sky.  I tend to think that coincidence, mysticism and tales of someone you don't know having seen great things explain away god.  But there is the other possibility that god wants to be invisible and at another point in time he wanted to be visible. 

I can't prove people were actually on the moon.  It could have been a tremendous hoax.  I simply trust there was no motive to put on such a hoax, astronomically small chance of not having someone talk and it was technologically feasible.  Almost everything I take as facts in this world are actually just things I have learned from other peoples achievements.  I have not attempted to prove much of math science nor history.  I just take it at face value and trust my sources as filtered through my reason of how things work.

Using reason breaks down when dealing with the subject of god.  God is described as a mysterious, invisible god who on occasion answers prayers as they should be answered.  No my observations are useless because god is by definition invisible these days.  My reason is defeated because god's plan is not always apparent I am left with faith (of which I have little to none)

If god exists the only time you will know is after you die, you will know you did right by him, you screwed up, a deep lack of knowing or caring about anything. 

God exists in my mind in a small fraction of possibility generated by the simple fact that I can not resolve the creation of the universe from absolutely nothing whatsoever.  I put god on a virtually even footing with a universe spawning itself.  Even though I think the universe spawned from a single point I do not see that as excluding god from the realm of distant possibility.  As such I am an atheist leaning agnostic.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1237 on: April 08, 2014, 01:18:10 PM »
You can prove a negative if you can eliminate all the possibilities.

With god. He cannot exist outside a universe. He cannot exist inside a universe.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1238 on: April 08, 2014, 01:53:09 PM »
You can prove a negative if you can eliminate all the possibilities.

With god. He cannot exist outside a universe. He cannot exist inside a universe.

I see no reason he can not exist within the universe and outside the universe.  You are putting limitations on him with no evidence of his abilities.

It is like me saying with almost no physics background that black holes can not evaporate, or saying definitively that they do.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 01:55:02 PM by epidemic »

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1239 on: April 08, 2014, 02:06:28 PM »
I see no reason he can not exist within the universe and outside the universe

bold mine.

What does "outside the universe" even mean?  Or is it just words next to each other (because they can be) that have no practical meaning?  Like saying, "I see no reason why god cannot exist donkey pumpkin."

What does it mean to exist outside it as well as inside?  That seems like a logical limitation to me, not one of a supposed god's abilities. 

And who has the requisite background on god to describe what he can or cannot do?  What do our "foremost god experts" really know?  What have they observed of god?

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Offline median

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1240 on: April 09, 2014, 01:03:14 AM »
My reason is defeated... I am left with faith...

Classic.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1241 on: April 09, 2014, 02:34:16 AM »
You can prove a negative if you can eliminate all the possibilities.

With god. He cannot exist outside a universe. He cannot exist inside a universe.

I see no reason he can not exist within the universe and outside the universe.  You are putting limitations on him with no evidence of his abilities.

Nice point, but can you point to positive evidence that either possibility might be true?

Quote
It is like me saying with almost no physics background that black holes can not evaporate, or saying definitively that they do.

Not really, because we are not talking about anything more than existence. We are talking about the existence, or not, of a god and not his actions or whatever. You would be quite right to state that black holes exist because we have abundant evidence that this is true yet we still have no evidence at all for any gods.Surely it can't be that hard can it?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1242 on: April 09, 2014, 04:34:04 AM »

I see no reason he can not exist within the universe and outside the universe.  You are putting limitations on him with no evidence of his abilities.

It is like me saying with almost no physics background that black holes can not evaporate, or saying definitively that they do.

There are limitations on what universes can do.

For the second possibility, a god cannot exist outside a universe because there is no such thing as outside a universe. Time, space, causality and stable existence are properties which only exist inside universes.

Think about the properties which heaven is supposed to have. You can see that it is vaguely similar to earth but with a few differences, so it is supposed to be in a similar universe to our own. Think about whether these differences are actually possible.
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1243 on: April 09, 2014, 05:11:08 AM »
Foxy if there is no outside of universe how do you justify putting conditions on it's nature??
Just asking .
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 05:13:15 AM by eh! »
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1244 on: April 09, 2014, 05:19:19 AM »
Foxy if there is no outside of universe how do you justify putting conditions on it's nature??
Just asking .

if there is no outside of universe its limitations are absolute

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1245 on: April 09, 2014, 05:30:49 AM »
I think the problem we have here is about the idea if a physical universe, with its laws and constraints, versus the concept of a non-material being who created the universe. Actually, what I am about to say could apply to a material being too, come to think of it.

The standard religious belief (which somehow ignores the fact the Genesis starts with just the earth in a chaotic form due to coverage of water) is that god was alone and then created heaven and earth. The standard created by Genesis, a flat plate with a dome over it has long since appeared not to match what astronomy has found out so Christianity has moved on from the Genesis account and considers that god was on his own and then created the universe. So from that it follows that

1. There is something or somewhere outwith the universe in which god sat prior to creation

2. That somewhere is still there and maybe is considered to be heaven as it matches the description of being outside time.

Of course, this is religious belief and, stunningly, places god where he can't be detected or proved not to exist but leaves the believer with the problem of the communication link - i.e. how can the believer be heard by god and how can god respond over the vast distances of space and time. I rather think that leaving god in 'heaven' really gives us a Deist universe which actually matches reality better than Christianity as, of course, prayers are never answered.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1246 on: April 09, 2014, 05:31:18 AM »
I get that's conditional on the word if but even so on what rational authority. can you make claims on what conditions hold outside of the universe. is there even a theory involved. so far just authoritive statements.

i would be honest and claim ignorance or unjustified speculation over truth claims. .
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