Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 13956 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1160 on: April 04, 2014, 05:31:58 AM »
I don't know how you guys can muster the energy to try be real, honest and caring enough to try save these willfully ignorant theists. they aren't listening they await the next life cos they never learned how to live this one.  sad they have been duped by evil men who crave power over them and money from them.

I don't know - one never knows what effect one's words have on others and the effect, if it comes, may not be immediate. We hope that at least people are made to think outside of religion here and, even if they seem to carry on with fingers in their ears, sometimes the words will get through and sow some degree of doubt in their minds.

What beats me is that various religions that have obvious downsides we can point out still keep their followers. These include -

Mormons - for whom it has been shown the the Testament of Abraham is a scam - Smith 'translated' it from an Egyptian funeral scroll. We also know that the native Americans came across from Russia 13,000 years ago and not from Israel around 600BCE. Finally, for a supposed culture with towns in the US, no trace of archaeological remains have ever been found. It appears that Smith and compatriots duped the masses.

JWs - Founder, Russell and second leader, Rutherford, did a lot of predicting of the end of the World. Russell went on about 1914 until the date passed when he declared that, actually, it was just Jesus sitting on his throne. Rutherford di the same with various dates too. If these leaders got it wrong so much, how did they keep any followers at all. (At least harold Camping gave up after his failure!) JWs probably aren't told the whole history of their 'faith' and we can at least keep them informed.

We need to keep information going to the theist and sometimes it might work.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline eh!

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1161 on: April 04, 2014, 06:01:11 AM »
I was gonna say bother to try unfuk them but save sounded  more polite.  i mean so many church leaders have zero integrity and are just scamming con artists that are total godless atheists taking advantage of the sheep and systematically messing up children minds with bullshit n all and that ain't cool but the hapless souls that get on the forums are so freakin lost in their delusion that it is pointless to go to the effort of composing well thought out well written well researched totally reasonable and honest respectful posts to them when all they are going to come back with is tired line of scripture and the belief that godidit. seems an unequal exchange of energy.

get what I'm sayin?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1162 on: April 04, 2014, 06:11:20 AM »
I was gonna say bother to try unfuk them but save sounded  more polite.  i mean so many church leaders have zero integrity and are just scamming con artists that are total godless atheists taking advantage of the sheep and systematically messing up children minds with bullshit n all and that ain't cool but the hapless souls that get on the forums are so freakin lost in their delusion that it is pointless to go to the effort of composing well thought out well written well researched totally reasonable and honest respectful posts to them when all they are going to come back with is tired line of scripture and the belief that godidit. seems an unequal exchange of energy.

get what I'm sayin?
I think so, but you need to buy a keyboard with punctuation and capitals on it if you really want to get your message across. ; )
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1163 on: April 04, 2014, 06:15:10 AM »
I was gonna say bother to try unfuk them but save sounded  more polite.  i mean so many church leaders have zero integrity and are just scamming con artists that are total godless atheists taking advantage of the sheep and systematically messing up children minds with bullshit n all and that ain't cool but the hapless souls that get on the forums are so freakin lost in their delusion that it is pointless to go to the effort of composing well thought out well written well researched totally reasonable and honest respectful posts to them when all they are going to come back with is tired line of scripture and the belief that godidit. seems an unequal exchange of energy.

get what I'm sayin?

Well, despite the problems Greybeard mentioned, I quite get your point. The trouble is that a lot of clergy do sincerely believe what the preach - deluded by their own preaching you might say. Of course some clergy are not sincere and I suspect one finds those in the USA running their own churches and making money. Most clergy in the UK have rather skinnier time on a stipend that is at the low end of incomes while working for mainstream churches.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1164 on: April 04, 2014, 06:44:29 AM »
The more mainstream religous folk i call friends are very critical of the disgusting levels of personal wealth, the whole mind fuk speaking in tongues, faith healing, doom prophesising, tax avoiding and prime real estate land grabs. the literal anti-rational, highly political public policy influencing activities of the evangalical movement as somehow unchristian and highly suspect.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1165 on: April 04, 2014, 09:53:22 AM »
It is not ambiguous.  After taking rulership Christ began a worldwide preaching and education campaign to once again tell people "repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near".
I'm sorry...is Christ in the process of establishing a rulership or does Christ already have an established rulership?

Quote from: jdawg
God has no rulership to oppose.  He has not established rulership here on Earth.  Otherwise, he'd do something.  Just 'declaring' rulership doesn't mean a thing.  I can declare my rulership over the United Kingdom, but unless I do something to actually exercise that authority, my 'rulership' is meaningless.

No, he is in the process of establishing it.  These are some of the steps he has taken.

1.  He built a small nation that would live under his rulership for a time and he used it to establish the line of his king.
2.  He brought forth laws to protect the nation and to teach it right from wrong.  At times he directly interefered to maintain the continuance of this nation.
3.  He anointed his king.
4.  Christ sacrificed his life to ransom those that would come to rule with him (the elect) and those that would come to be his subjects (all others that place faith in his sacrifice).
5.  A global witness is being carried out about #4 while Christ continues the selection process to it's completion.  Christ himself started this global witness.  His disciples carry it to completion.

The rest is future.

Am I mixing up Christ's rulership and god's rulership?
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Offline jtk73

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1166 on: April 04, 2014, 11:54:02 AM »
Here I see two things that involve humans being deceived in a way that would cause them to turn away from god or just not believe.
One is because Satan keeps them distracted.  Two is because their leaders want to maintain their powerful positions.

Then, elsewhere, you state the reason that god allows this to happen.
Quote
These religious people and politicians don't love the truth, but they take pleasure in unrighteousness and I present history as proof.  For this reason God allows them to be deceived.

Then you state that these people don't love the truth...
Quote
Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

So the love of the truth was withheld from them....by god? Am I understanding this correctly?

Quote
And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:  that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thess 2:10)

And this truth was withheld from them..by god because....god 'sent them an error' (hardened their hearts? messed with their thinking?) 'so that they would believe a lie'? They didn't receive the truth/were allowed to be deceived because god didn't give them a love for the truth, because god changed their thinking so that they would believe a lie(s). This seems very passive-aggressive and dishonest on the part of god.

Also, I find this very...interesting (read contradictory).

Quote
In fulfillment of Revelation, Satan arrived on the earth with great anger.  So began World War I, pestilences and famines of differing sorts, earthquakes (upheavels in human society which will end with a great earthquake) along with pestilences and famines for God.  At the same time false religion (of which Christendom is a prominant part) began it's fall from which is has not and will not recover.

..and..

Quote
"When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape." (1 Thess 5:3)

Nice built in defense mechanism. Everything is horrible with famine, war, nat disasters, etc - "It's a sign! Jesus is coming!". Everything is going well - peace, safety, ect. - "It's a sign! Jesus is coming!". Either way, the end is near.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1167 on: April 04, 2014, 12:20:18 PM »
No, I mean that in his absence Christians drifted off.  But with his return the Witness work began anew again, and within 100 years it is near completion.  And I don't mean by those warring Christians either.

I've always wondered. Why is it that, with all the texts and teachings being available for almost 2,000 years, that the perfect word of god didn't get properly stated until Charles Russell and the Watchtower people and finally, until JW's became a group in 1931? What sources of information did your forebearers in the religion have that no others ever had for the nearly 2,000 years prior? What biblical studies did you conduct that told you that the JW way is the right way, beyond any shadow of a doubt?

A bible full of verses that have many thousands of different interpretational combinations (hence thousands of different versions of christianity) does not impress those of us with standards rather than poorly constructed ideals. A bible that cannot create and inspire the right version of christianity even though it is the word of this perfect god of yours. At least not until your guys showed up, read it with their head tilted just right, and whammo, correctomundo christianity hit the front porch of every neighborhood in America. Right?

What makes the cherry picking of your religious group any better than the cherry picking of any other religious group. Some play with serpents, you play with that 144,000 number. Do you know yours is right because you've studied every variation on the theme throughout your life and JW's seem to align most closely with the ideals of your god, or did you choose the JW's and then make sure your ideals aligned with theirs?

In any case, that's not how I do things. My mind doesn't allow itself to be emptied of all but those precious few allowable thoughts. It does not allow me to be dictated to by old people (I'm old, I can say that) who claim to know it all while confining all of their thoughts to the two or three allowed by their chosen religion. I will not listen to scary stories that have to be repeated decade after decades because decade after decade they don't come true. And if I ever decide I want to be the laughing stock of my community, I'll do it on my own terms, not on those who command me to knock on doors and hand out tracts that are, at best, a piss poor reason to have to recycle.

I would ask the same of you if you were a seventh day adventist, a lutheran, a quaker, a mormon. Because I just don't get it. How can millions see one story in so many different ways as each one wildly guesses that they have it right? Or, in the case of the meek, assumes the other guy has it right so that they can follow blindly.

The stories are identical to every other myth out there. Just less lightening and fewer snake haired women. But you've got your talking snakes, miraculous floods, salt lady, kid-killing bears, parting waters, lost tribes and other standard fair. Oh yea, and the kid. But others have had virgin born, sacrificed kids too. Long before you're showed up and ostensibly healed the sick. A few times.

You are too easily impressed, too gullible, and way too wrong. I know that you truly believe this stuff, but if you'll give yourself, instead of your religion, a few seconds, you'll figure out that you've done it wrong, and that it is time to access your real life, not the one that you've been ordered to live by leaders who chose which parts of christianity are true or right or whatever based on their own prejudices and their own selfish motives. 

Beliefs that make your world smaller and you more special than the others have nothing to offer but false hopes. About things for which there is no hope to falsify. We all die, that's the end, and to pretend or hope or fearfully yearn for it to be different belittles the real life that you do have.

You're doing it wrong. Change it. Life is so much nicer when you aren't living in fear of armageddon. And if the world should actually end, you'll be less surprised when it doesn't happen according to your script.

This is your fault. Once you claim to know everything, someone has to set you straight.

By their fruits you will know them.  I reject Christendom based on the fruits is has produced.  Nothing more and nothing less.  And it's not that I expect perfection, but I do expect to see love.  Killing one another and others is not love.  In the modern world Christendom is trying to backtrack, but what's done is done and overall it hasn't changed.  If Christendom produces fruit befitting repentance then that is a different story.  Until then I will judge it based on the fruits it produces.

So far Christendom has fulfilled this scripture.  "Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:2)

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1168 on: April 04, 2014, 12:25:14 PM »


By their fruits you will know them.  I reject Christendom based on the fruits is has produced.  Nothing more and nothing less.  And it's not that I expect perfection, but I do expect to see love.  Killing one another and others is not love.  In the modern world Christendom is trying to backtrack, but what's done is done and overall it hasn't changed.  If Christendom produces fruit befitting repentance then that is a different story.  Until then I will judge it based on the fruits it produces.

So far Christendom has fulfilled this scripture.  "Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:2)

I take it that this includes all the Christians does it? Especially ones who frequently and wrongly claim that the end of thew world is coming any time soon? Especially ones that don't acknowledge the deity of Christ?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1169 on: April 04, 2014, 12:38:52 PM »


By their fruits you will know them.  I reject Christendom based on the fruits is has produced.  Nothing more and nothing less.  And it's not that I expect perfection, but I do expect to see love.  Killing one another and others is not love.  In the modern world Christendom is trying to backtrack, but what's done is done and overall it hasn't changed.  If Christendom produces fruit befitting repentance then that is a different story.  Until then I will judge it based on the fruits it produces.

So far Christendom has fulfilled this scripture.  "Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:2)

I take it that this includes all the Christians does it? Especially ones who frequently and wrongly claim that the end of thew world is coming any time soon? Especially ones that don't acknowledge the deity of Christ?

No, this is not focused toward any individuals that may be in Christendom.  It is toward   Christendom as a whole and primarily it's leaders.  The actions of Christendom is a reflection of it's beliefs. 

And it applies to any religion that leads the people to practice depravity.  Mistakes in doctrine can be overlooked.  A willful and continuing practice of evil things cannot be.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1170 on: April 04, 2014, 01:06:16 PM »
So people lie, and people listen. So God allows this is the people lie and people listen. You didn't answer the question, you just danced around it.

Yes I did.  "Because they received not the love of the truth"

So God intended them to like lies. Why? And round and round it goes.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1171 on: April 04, 2014, 01:19:42 PM »


By their fruits you will know them.  I reject Christendom based on the fruits is has produced.  Nothing more and nothing less.  And it's not that I expect perfection, but I do expect to see love.  Killing one another and others is not love.  In the modern world Christendom is trying to backtrack, but what's done is done and overall it hasn't changed.  If Christendom produces fruit befitting repentance then that is a different story.  Until then I will judge it based on the fruits it produces.

So far Christendom has fulfilled this scripture.  "Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:2)

I take it that this includes all the Christians does it? Especially ones who frequently and wrongly claim that the end of thew world is coming any time soon? Especially ones that don't acknowledge the deity of Christ?

No, this is not focused toward any individuals that may be in Christendom.  It is toward   Christendom as a whole and primarily it's leaders.  The actions of Christendom is a reflection of it's beliefs. 

And it applies to any religion that leads the people to practice depravity.  Mistakes in doctrine can be overlooked.  A willful and continuing practice of evil things cannot be.

Right. So that's Russel and Rutherford then? I suppose the next few leaders will be added in due course.

Now, for mistakes - taking until 1995 to realise that Armageddon wasn't going to happen within the lives of those around in 1914 was a big step. You call these mistakes? These are doctrines that are false! Since when are mistakes in doctrine allowable anyway? Jesus was the son of god and, according to Nicea part of the godhead. It was only the discredited Russell that means you don't believe the orthodox faith today!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1172 on: April 04, 2014, 01:20:47 PM »
So people lie, and people listen. So God allows this is the people lie and people listen. You didn't answer the question, you just danced around it.

Yes I did.  "Because they received not the love of the truth"

So God intended them to like lies. Why? And round and round it goes.

No.  But because they like lies God has allowed them a wide selection to choose from.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1173 on: April 04, 2014, 01:25:43 PM »


By their fruits you will know them.  I reject Christendom based on the fruits is has produced.  Nothing more and nothing less.  And it's not that I expect perfection, but I do expect to see love.  Killing one another and others is not love.  In the modern world Christendom is trying to backtrack, but what's done is done and overall it hasn't changed.  If Christendom produces fruit befitting repentance then that is a different story.  Until then I will judge it based on the fruits it produces.

So far Christendom has fulfilled this scripture.  "Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:2)

I take it that this includes all the Christians does it? Especially ones who frequently and wrongly claim that the end of thew world is coming any time soon? Especially ones that don't acknowledge the deity of Christ?

No, this is not focused toward any individuals that may be in Christendom.  It is toward   Christendom as a whole and primarily it's leaders.  The actions of Christendom is a reflection of it's beliefs. 

And it applies to any religion that leads the people to practice depravity.  Mistakes in doctrine can be overlooked.  A willful and continuing practice of evil things cannot be.

Right. So that's Russel and Rutherford then? I suppose the next few leaders will be added in due course.

Now, for mistakes - taking until 1995 to realise that Armageddon wasn't going to happen within the lives of those around in 1914 was a big step. You call these mistakes? These are doctrines that are false! Since when are mistakes in doctrine allowable anyway? Jesus was the son of god and, according to Nicea part of the godhead. It was only the discredited Russell that means you don't believe the orthodox faith today!

You are beating around the bush.  Show me where Witnesses practice depravity with impunity and I'll have something to consider.

Quote
Jesus was the son of god and, according to Nicea part of the godhead.

Why should I listen to them?  Does Cathocism really have God's, or the people's best interests in mind?  If not then how can they be trusted to teach me about God?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1174 on: April 04, 2014, 01:57:24 PM »
Don't get sassy with me. 

Don't want the truth? Don't talk to me.

I answered this question.

Too true. I did not recall it, as all your answers sound like dodges to me.

This is a different question.  Or at least a less ambiguous question. 

It is not ambiguous.  After taking rulership Christ began a worldwide preaching and education campaign to once again tell people "repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near".  What makes it ambiguous is all the counterfeit anti-christs.  Why did he allow this?  "Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:  that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thess 2:10)

These religious people and politicians don't love the truth, but they take pleasure in unrighteousness and I present history as proof.  For this reason God allows them to be deceived.  Many people, like sheep without a shepherd, fall victim or are left powerless.  For this reason Christ has came to rule.

So... Why does he allow this? I've yet to see an actual answer to the question. All you've given me is the usual JW spiel that I've heard several times already from many (IMO) JW's. You've also conveniently ignored the part where I asked if your god was impotent to stop people from being led astray (or whatever you kids say nowadays) by Santa Stan Satan, or whoever/whatever.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1175 on: April 04, 2014, 02:18:44 PM »
So people lie, and people listen. So God allows this is the people lie and people listen. You didn't answer the question, you just danced around it.

Yes I did.  "Because they received not the love of the truth"

So God intended them to like lies. Why? And round and round it goes.

No.  But because they like lies God has allowed them a wide selection to choose from.

But why did God make them to like lies? Or was he not the creator? Or was he insufficiently omniscient that they would turn out that way? And round and round it goes.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1176 on: April 04, 2014, 03:14:39 PM »
By their fruits you will know them.  I reject Christendom based on the fruits is has produced.  Nothing more and nothing less.  And it's not that I expect perfection, but I do expect to see love.  Killing one another and others is not love.  In the modern world Christendom is trying to backtrack, but what's done is done and overall it hasn't changed.  If Christendom produces fruit befitting repentance then that is a different story.  Until then I will judge it based on the fruits it produces.

So far Christendom has fulfilled this scripture.  "Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:2)

Cute. You have it right, beyond any shadow of a doubt. But I have to mention that the end times will not happen in your lifetime, they won't happen in the lifetime of your children, or your grandchildren, but I've little doubt that there will still be JW's in a thousand years. And they too will be absolutely certain that all the signs indicate the end times coming soon.

An atheist has to tell you this because you're too deluded to see it your self.

And as for the love part. I've never had a fuzzy, warm JW come to my door and offer me a tract. Every one has been cold and distant. So I sure hope it is better inside the group. Because outside, you guys come across as world champion curmudgeons.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1177 on: April 04, 2014, 03:30:47 PM »
So... Why does he allow this? I've yet to see an actual answer to the question. All you've given me is the usual JW spiel that I've heard several times already from many (IMO) JW's. You've also conveniently ignored the part where I asked if your god was impotent to stop people from being led astray (or whatever you kids say nowadays) by Santa Stan Satan, or whoever/whatever.

There is only one viable alternative.  Armageddon.  Does that answer the question?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1178 on: April 04, 2014, 03:32:09 PM »
There is only one viable alternative.  Armageddon.  Does that answer the question?

So your god is not all-powerful (omnipotent)?
EDIT: I can do this all day, Jstwebbrowsing. You, however, will soon retreat to "Well, we can't know for sure, so atheism is a faith just like mine!" or something along those lines. You might also call me a devil-worshiper or whatever. Wouldn't be the first time someone's called me that.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 03:33:58 PM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline eh!

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1179 on: April 04, 2014, 03:34:24 PM »
What was god's point with whole creation thing? Serious question, like he created us so we could choose to love him or not? Seems too simple???
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1180 on: April 04, 2014, 03:42:02 PM »
My father (a violent alcoholic con artist and sociopath) was pretty damn depraved. And he was a faithful Jehovah's Witness.

I await the "he was never really a Witness" defensive countermove. But that would not work, because he was a major player in the Kingdom Hall while he was doing lots of bad stuff. As a con artist, he was a very persuasive member of the JW's and probably converted more people than anyone else in the congregation at the time. I watched him work his magic house-to-housing, using us kids as bait, and reeling in the old black ladies one by one with his gift of gab.

Thus from a young age I learned to identify BS when I heard it, and I also realized that con artistry, a charming personality, craziness, scary violence, hypocrisy and religious fervor could all co-exist quite nicely inside the same human being. With that background it should not come as a surprise that I eventually became an atheist. The surprise is that I stayed with the JW's as long as I did, and even tried to remain vaguely religious for a bit after leaving them.....

The other JW leaders knew about a lot of his wrongdoing-- they even came to the house and saw all the empty booze bottles, for example. My 6'3" father was beating my five foot tall mother regularly after coming back from bible study, house to housing and the Kingdom Hall. There were times he chased her out of the house barefoot into the snow. The JW leadership told my mother that her main problem was that since she did not participate in the JW activities with her husband, she was not as faithful a Witness as he was. So how could she expect any help from Jehovah God?

My father was finally excommunicated, but not for running cons, not for nearly killing his wife, and not for abusing his kids, and not for drinking up his paychecks and running the family business into the ground. He was not kicked out until years after we had all moved away from him.  He began to challenge the Watchtower Society's interpretation of the bible, writing up his own versions of what prophecies meant.

That was it, he was kicked to the curb. Until his death, he maintained that he was right and the JW's were wrong. Clearly, he is not going to be in the earthly paradise of everlasting life....but he would have made it if he had not gone against the JW teachings. Well, that, and the forbidden blood transfusion that probably saved his life when he was in his 80's.

My brother stayed in the faith, dedicated his life to the JW's and became an elder or whatever the high mucky mucks are called. He learned to be a JW from our dad, so if dad "was not really a Witness", than neither was my brother. Or my sister-in-law, who joined because of my brother. And neither was anyone either of them converted.

You can "know them by their fruit", right? &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1181 on: April 04, 2014, 03:44:00 PM »
So people lie, and people listen. So God allows this is the people lie and people listen. You didn't answer the question, you just danced around it.

Yes I did.  "Because they received not the love of the truth"

So God intended them to like lies. Why? And round and round it goes.

No.  But because they like lies God has allowed them a wide selection to choose from.

But why did God make them to like lies? Or was he not the creator? Or was he insufficiently omniscient that they would turn out that way? And round and round it goes.

You are not going round and round with me.  Since you've already got it all figured out I don't need to say anything.   
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1182 on: April 04, 2014, 03:47:15 PM »

So your god is not all-powerful (omnipotent)?

EDIT: I can do this all day, Jstwebbrowsing. You, however, will soon retreat to "Well, we can't know for sure, so atheism is a faith just like mine!" or something along those lines. You might also call me a devil-worshiper or whatever. Wouldn't be the first time someone's called me that.

You may be disappointed.  Yes Jehovah is all-powerful.  Lack of power is not an issue.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1183 on: April 04, 2014, 03:50:17 PM »
  Since you've already got it all figured out I don't need to say anything.   

Good we are in agreement. I have it figured out that you can't resolve such an issue.

Because if God is creator and God is omniscient, he creates things knowing exactly how they play out and how they would act. There is no free will. Thus, why would this alleged god want people to want to be lied to is a legitimate question that you dance around actually answering.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1184 on: April 04, 2014, 03:50:43 PM »
You may be disappointed.  Yes Jehovah is all-powerful.  Lack of power is not an issue.

So there are other alternatives besides Armageddon. Omnipotence and all that. So, I'll ask you again, why is your god unable to do what it supposedly wants to do?

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1185 on: April 04, 2014, 03:51:45 PM »
What was god's point with whole creation thing? Serious question, like he created us so we could choose to love him or not? Seems too simple???

Not quite.  His purpose was, partially, to create humans that love him through free will.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1186 on: April 04, 2014, 03:53:28 PM »

So your god is not all-powerful (omnipotent)?

EDIT: I can do this all day, Jstwebbrowsing. You, however, will soon retreat to "Well, we can't know for sure, so atheism is a faith just like mine!" or something along those lines. You might also call me a devil-worshiper or whatever. Wouldn't be the first time someone's called me that.

You may be disappointed.  Yes Jehovah is all-powerful.  Lack of power is not an issue.

So he's too dumb to know how to get what he desires? It's got to be one of the two.


The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round...




An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1187 on: April 04, 2014, 03:56:06 PM »
By their fruits you will know them.  I reject Christendom based on the fruits is has produced.  Nothing more and nothing less.  And it's not that I expect perfection, but I do expect to see love.  Killing one another and others is not love.  In the modern world Christendom is trying to backtrack, but what's done is done and overall it hasn't changed.  If Christendom produces fruit befitting repentance then that is a different story.  Until then I will judge it based on the fruits it produces.

So far Christendom has fulfilled this scripture.  "Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:2)

Why does every Christian reject all of Christianity and still cling to a personal fantasy? This alone should be enough to tell anyone that there is something wrong with it. In religion, other people are always wrong.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1188 on: April 04, 2014, 03:57:08 PM »
  Since you've already got it all figured out I don't need to say anything.   

Good we are in agreement. I have it figured out that you can't resolve such an issue.

Because if God is creator and God is omniscient, he creates things knowing exactly how they play out and how they would act. There is no free will. Thus, why would this alleged god want people to want to be lied to is a legitimate question that you dance around actually answering.

No, you are incorrect about Jehovah.  He is omniscient in that nothing can be hidden from him.  This does not revoke our free will.  However he does know how things will play out.  What you fail to realize is that everything is right on schedule.  If, to you he has failed, what purpose failed?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10