Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 20609 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2795
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1044 on: March 30, 2014, 01:23:57 PM »
Adultery  is detestable, so far as I am concerned, as it breaks the promises made but the partners to a marriage. Everyone enters a marriage freely and should carry out theirt side of their promises. Adultery is breaking those promises and  I do not think that is right or proper.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1045 on: March 30, 2014, 01:40:30 PM »
The bold part is what I have to disagree with. Speaking only for myself (but I think you'll find that I'm not alone in this), I can not nor I will not ignore the horrific and sometimes downright sadistic acts the god of the Bible has perpetrated just to be able to profit from his "loving one another" message. It would be like going to Jeffrey Dahmer for cooking advice, imo.

Quote from: Angus and Alexis
The (non)existence of magic, genocidal maniacs making floods, pure paradise forever, pure torment forever, creation of space/time, genetic variances leading to new species, and GRAMMAR, are all bloody important topics.

If you cant prove magic, sky people, and demons, either don't talk about them again, or prove their existence. (I learnt my lesson with a specific topic...)

Just think about this for a second, if you proved magic/gods/flying pigs exist, you would become the most influential person on earth, probably winning a Nobel prize.

For one I cannot understand how anyone can make judgments about God's punishments with almost a complete lack of surrounding facts.  Do we even share any common ground?  If right now he destroyed by fire all those that practice wickedness, would that be wrong?

Secondly, I don't need to know all those things nor anything supernatural you mention to know God exists.  And if I know God exists then all those other things are moot.  Do you really think you can disprove God using Genesis chapter 1?  Or by talking about a flood?  The big bang?  Evolution?  Or by bad mouthing biblical morals using Presentism?  To me you are just striking the wind.

Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1046 on: March 30, 2014, 01:43:01 PM »
What needs to be examined is what the Bible says about loving one another and how we should treat one another and the benefit of those teachings.

Why do you need the bible to tell you this?

This is explained in my post to ParkingPlaces.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1047 on: March 30, 2014, 01:47:49 PM »
This exchange about Russell and 1914 piqued my curiosity.  It appears the interpretation of 1914 is rather fluid depending on Watchtower writings before and after 1914.  Which version or 1914 are you supporting?

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-predictions.php
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/were-watchtower-prophecies-about-1914-fulfilled/
http://www.faithandreasonforum.com/index.asp?PageID=30&ArticleID=456

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

While there is nothing wrong with seeking outside sources I would caution against taking everything said by opposers as fact.  There is no sort of coverup.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402013530?q=1914&p=par

If you are curious about the beliefs on 1914 here is a good place to start or if you prefer I can give you a very short version of it.  I highly recommend against that.  But I am happy to try and answer any questions you may have.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=1914&p=par

My apologies for hitting the "Post" button too soon. 

With all due respect, you did not answer my question about which version of 1914 you support.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Still wondering.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

I guess I am not understanding what you are asking.  The sites of opposers do not reflect any of my beliefs.  I have explained what I believe.  Is there a specific question you have about them?

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1048 on: March 30, 2014, 01:58:34 PM »

Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.

This is one big fat assumption. And it presents a logical fallacy called the argument from incredulity. I'm sorry. This is irrational.

You are practicing confirmation bias and just haven't realized it. You have assumed your position in advance (you started with your conclusion) and are now trying to work backwards. It fails for others and it fails for you.

You haven't demonstrated that those principles are "infallible". You just keep CLAIMING and SAYING it like a broken record. But that doesn't prove anything except that you cannot be reasoned with, and that you are unwilling to amend your position when shown to be in error. As I showed in my previous post, the bible is both self-contradictory (through and through) and plainly in error in many places. Your moving the goal posts doesn't change that fact.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 02:02:40 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1049 on: March 30, 2014, 02:10:44 PM »
For one I cannot understand how anyone can make judgments about God's punishments with almost a complete lack of surrounding facts.  Do we even share any common ground?  If right now he destroyed by fire all those that practice wickedness, would that be wrong?

It's actually easy, even when you use nothing but what the Bible has to say about your God and his preferred methods of "judgment". But let's go with your example: I did not say in my previous post anything about his motives, but as a form of punishment (death by fire) I most certainly can say it's a sadistic method of getting his point across. So is a slow death by drowning (great flood).

The "surrounding facts"... again, going by nothing but the Bible... that an omnipotent deity time and time again decides to mix in pain with his punishment when, say, simply winking the wicked out of existence was an option (he is allegedly all-powerful, after all) kinda makes me skeptical about accepting any "advice" from him about how to treat my fellow human beings.

Quote
Secondly, I don't need to know all those things nor anything supernatural you mention to know God exists.  And if I know God exists then all those other things are moot.  Do you really think you can disprove God using Genesis chapter 1?  Or by talking about a flood?  The big bang?  Evolution?  Or by bad mouthing biblical morals using Presentism?  To me you are just striking the wind.

Again, please point to anywhere in my previous post I mentioned whether or not your god exists. You are creating a strawman. What I was addressing was whether or not said god (whether he exists or not) is worthy of being taken seriously. Would you prefer to live in a country/world where our justice system mirrors the methods your god has used? Shall we set on fire murderers, or drown rapists? I for one would doubt that such a justice system was worthy of being supported.

Quote
Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.

Speculation.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1050 on: March 30, 2014, 02:11:00 PM »
Having now come back to the forum on the morning our clocks went forward, I seem to have missed quite a bit. However, here's a continuation of something discussed last night.

Jstwebbrowsing, you were talking about the dates of the end of the world / beginning of Christ's rule etc. A more careful study of dates suggests to me that your organization has been rather carefully using dates to string people along. I see that date of 1914, originally the date when Armageddon would happen was quietly retitled as the day Christ sat on his throne - as though immaterial beings sit on anything. Since then there have been dates dangled tantalizingly close to each generation - even 2,000 was supposed to be  an end point. Although I'm sure that one can prove these dates are significant - I think you can prove more or less anything from the bible - ir appears to be a tactic of the organization to keep people promoting the religion.

I don't deny things like that have happened.  And Witnesses always do hold a very real expectation and zeal that the end is very near.  For one this keeps them from falling into a state of apathy and inactivity with thoughts of "Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."  (2 Pet 3:4)

Yes this functions as a tactic.  And they have jumped the gun.  But why?  Are the Witnesses being deceptively manipulated or are they being zealously lead by Christians that have never claimed infallibility?  How can you tell?




Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1051 on: March 30, 2014, 02:16:56 PM »

Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.

This is one big fat assumption. And it presents a logical fallacy called the argument from incredulity. I'm sorry. This is irrational.

You are practicing confirmation bias and just haven't realized it. You have assumed your position in advance (you started with your conclusion) and are now trying to work backwards. It fails for others and it fails for you.

You haven't demonstrated that those principles are "infallible". You just keep CLAIMING and SAYING it like a broken record. But that doesn't prove anything except that you cannot be reasoned with, and that you are unwilling to amend your position when shown to be in error. As I showed in my previous post, the bible is both self-contradictory (through and through) and plainly in error in many places. Your moving the goal posts doesn't change that fact.

I am not assuming anything.  I have examined and tested my claims over many years.  ParkingPlaces and I are going down that road now.  Feel free to join that discussion.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1052 on: March 30, 2014, 02:20:05 PM »
Just realized I left out something in my last post... it should read:

Again, please point to anywhere in my previous post I mentioned whether or not your god exists. You are creating a strawman. What I was addressing was whether or not said god (whether he exists or not) is worthy of being taken seriously in regards to how to treat one another. Would you prefer to live in a country/world where our justice system mirrors the methods your god has used? Shall we set on fire murderers, or drown rapists? I for one would doubt that such a justice system was worthy of being supported.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6822
  • Darwins +551/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1053 on: March 30, 2014, 02:21:14 PM »

I guess I am not understanding what you are asking.  The sites of opposers do not reflect any of my beliefs.  I have explained what I believe.  Is there a specific question you have about them?
I for one did not fully understand which version of Russell's prediction you thought the truth. I know how the JW interpret and revise in the manner of totalitarian regimes, so I would be interested in your reply also.

To refresh your memory, here are the versions:

That the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest, since the deliverance of fleshly Israel, as we shall see, is appointed to take place at that time, and the angry nations will then be authoritatively commanded to be still, and will be made to recognize the power of Jehovah’s Anointed. Just how long before 1914 the last living members of the body of Christ will be glorified, we are not directly informed; but it certainly will not be until their work in the flesh is done; nor can we reasonably presume that they will long remain after that work is accomplished. With these two thoughts in mind, we can approximate the time of the deliverance.
– Charles Taze Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, 1908


That the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon after 1914 is manifest, since the deliverance of fleshly Israel, as we shall see, is appointed to take place at that time, and the angry nations will then be authoritatively commanded to be still, and will be made to recognize the power of Jehovah’s Anointed. Just how long after 1914 the last living members of the body of Christ will be glorified, we are not directly informed; but it certainly will not be until their work in the flesh is done; nor can we reasonably presume that they will long remain after that work is accomplished. With these two thoughts in mind, we can approximate the time of the deliverance.
– Charles Taze Russell, Thy Kingdom Come, 1916

Studies in Scripture Charles Taze Russell
STUDY V
THE MANNER OF OUR LORD'S RETURN AND APPEARING
Connecting The Prophetic Chain
We have already (Vol. I, p. 237) called attention to the fact, that the recognition of the harvest work in actual process is proof of the Lord's presence, since he declared that he would be the chief reaper and director of the entire work, and that this would be his first work--"Behold, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle....And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." "In the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, gather" etc. (Rev. 14:14,16; Matt. 13:30) The harvest work will occupy forty years for its full accomplishment, ending with A.D. 1914. Its various features will be accomplished gradually, but all of its days are "days of the Son of Man"--days of our Lord's presence and power--recognized in the end by all, but at first only by the class specified by the Apostle--"Ye, brethren --not in darkness."

In the preceding chapter we presented evidence showing that the "Times of the Gentiles," or their lease of dominion, will run fully out with the year A.D. 1914, and that at that time they will be overturned* and Christ's Kingdom fully established. That the Lord must be present, and set up his Kingdom, and exercise his great power so as to dash the nations to pieces as a potter's vessel, is then clearly fixed; for it is "in the days of these kings"--before their overthrow--i.e., before A.D. 1914--that the God of heaven shall set up his Kingdom. And IT shall break in pieces and consume all these. (Dan. 2:44) And in harmony with this, we see all about us evidence of the beginning of the smiting, shaking, and overturning of the present powers, preparatory to the establishment of the kingdom "which cannot be moved"--the strong government.
*How long it will require to accomplish this overturning we are not informed, but have reason to believe the period will be "short."
"Thy Kingdom Come"


THE AUTHOR'S FOREWORD
(first published 1890 revised 1916)
 The Time of the End has emphasized this more and more as the years have gone by, especially since we entered chronologically the great Seventh Day. The work of Harvest has progressed and is still progressing--even though at one time we supposed that the Harvest work would have been fully accomplished with the ending of the Times of the Gentiles. That was merely a supposition, which proved to be without warrant, for the thrusting in of the sickle of Truth and the gathering in of the ripe grain has been progressing since October, 1914, as never before. Indeed, the great World War has awakened humanity in a remarkable degree, and more independent thinking is being done than ever before. All this contributes to the breaking of the shackles of ignorance, superstition, and prejudice, and the freeing of those who desire to know and to do the Lord's will and to walk in the footsteps of Jesus.


Have you any comment on the fact that, after his death, Charles Taze RussellWiki's family fought the Jehovah's Witnesses who claimed him as a member when patently he never could never have been.

Charles Taze Russell, a sad, deluded, false prophet... yet another one of thousands who "saw the end of the world."

Was Harold CampingWiki one of yours?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 02:29:03 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1054 on: March 30, 2014, 02:25:02 PM »
The "surrounding facts"... again, going by nothing but the Bible... that an omnipotent deity time and time again decides to mix in pain with his punishment when, say, simply winking the wicked out of existence was an option (he is allegedly all-powerful, after all) kinda makes me skeptical about accepting any "advice" from him about how to treat my fellow human beings.

That is your perogative.  Noone will ever force you to live by Jehovah's standards.  Although I do think this argument very closely resembles ad hominem mixed with some SPAG.  But I accept your decision.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6822
  • Darwins +551/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1055 on: March 30, 2014, 02:36:10 PM »
Noone will ever force you to live by Jehovah's standards. 
Absent any evidence that there is a "Jehovah", this is true. All we know is that some ill-educated people who, perforce, had an extremely restricted view of the world, wrote down some rules that others had already worked out and written down.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1056 on: March 30, 2014, 02:39:22 PM »
Quote
Have you any comment on the fact that, after his death, Charles Taze Russell's family fought the Jehovah's Witnesses who claimed him as a member when patently he never could never have been.

No.  And I don't understand why you think I should.  My topic of conversation is Jehovah and the Bible.  If I don't pass judgement on you, an atheist, then I'm also not going to pass judgment on a group of Christians that have done their very best to be zealous Christians.  Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1057 on: March 30, 2014, 02:47:06 PM »
Adultery  is detestable, so far as I am concerned, as it breaks the promises made but the partners to a marriage. Everyone enters a marriage freely and should carry out theirt side of their promises. Adultery is breaking those promises and  I do not think that is right or proper.
 

I will wait and see if there are any more responses about adultery before I reply.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1058 on: March 30, 2014, 02:52:46 PM »
That is your perogative.  Noone will ever force you to live by Jehovah's standards.

Nor I force you to renounce your faith, so we do have some common ground after all.

Quote
Although I do think this argument very closely resembles ad hominem...

I guess we have a differing opinion on the character of your god and whether or not it is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote
...mixed with some SPAG

My response was "SPAG" (Spelling, Punctuation And Grammar)??? That hurts, man.  ;)

Quote
But I accept your decision.

Cool. And if whatever form of justice your god decides to dole out... no matter how sadistic or inhuman (imo)... does not affect your faith in him, then that's your prerogative. Good chat.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6753
  • Darwins +817/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1059 on: March 30, 2014, 03:45:17 PM »
And that is the truth of Christianity I wish to impart.  Things like creation, floods, heaven, hell, big bangs, evolution, grammatical errors need to be set aside.  I get it, we don't agree.  What needs to be examined is what the Bible says about loving one another and how we should treat one another and the benefit of those teachings.

An admirable goal.  But being a good person doesn't require the bible. Biblical teachings may inspire some people to do good things, but many of us have done good things without the aid of the bible and its teachings. There are plenty of good reasons besides religious belief to do good. Religion doesn't have a lock on those incentives.

I do not want to suggest that people of all sorts don't do good or that belief in God is the only reason to do good things.  And I can only speak for myself but my faith in God has had a large impact on my desire to do good.  But it's a lot more than "I need to do good because God said so."  It's more along the lines of Christianity helps me identify all the other reasons for doing good, including, but in addition to because God says so.

I always ask, "why did God say so"?.  Is what God said truly the best way?  I know you don't believe in God but please bare with me.  I cannot help but refer to him as a real person.  For me, I have always found God's reasoning on matters to be very satisfying.  Some things are obvious.  We mostly all agree that murder is bad.  That's a no brainer.  Stealing?  Bad.  Lieing (baring false witness against your neighbor)?  Bad.  No Bible is needed.  But at other times the morals of people are different than the Bible.  Let's take something I think we are likely to have fewer disagreements about, or possibly even agree on.

What about adultery?  In theory it's considerded bad but in practice it is generally acceptable, at least in large portions of the world.  God has said adutery is detestable to him and those that practice it will not inherit the kingdom of God.  What about you?  Is adultery detestable or acceptable to you?  Is it acceptable under certain circumstances?

I'm home for lunch and don't have a lot of time to respond right now (I may think of more to say later) but I'll try something short.

Lacking a god in my life, I use reason and rationality as a guide. I don't kill because I know that people don't like to get killed, and I know I don't like killing, so that's why it is a no brainer for me. I'm glad the bible mentioned it, but I wish it would have said something about child and wife abuse, hurting others using financial or political power, and something about spying on people. All things that my own morals cover completely.

Adultery? Why are you guys so hung up on sex? Sure, I can agree it is a generally destructive behavior that should be avoided, but statistics clearly show that the more religious of American states are where divorce rates are the highest. And that is also where the adultery rates are the highest. Are religious folks hoping that their own laws will help keep each of them pure or something? Are they incapable of knowing right from wrong without a rule book?

I'm a person who values rationality over emotion. I don't mind emotions, but I don't use them to make my decisions for me. Or at least I try not to. What I prefer to do, what I usually do, is take as much information in on the situation as I can, try to put everything in perspective, and then decide.

The times I've been attracted to other mens wives I just shrugged and said "Nope, ain't gonna do it." and went on with my life. I understood that people would get hurt, and I didn't want any part of it.

I don't need any more external guidance than I already have. Which is based on what I've learned in life, not on what I've been told by the ancients. And it is so much easier to do the right thing when it is my decision rather than a demand.

And the fact that when I die, I won't be disappointed because the end times didn't come, is a bonus!

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1060 on: March 30, 2014, 05:07:43 PM »
Adultery? Why are you guys so hung up on sex?

The ones having all the sex are the ones hung up on sex.  The ones that have it plastered all over bill boards, radio, television, internet and so on are the ones that are hung up on sex.  I bring it up because it's a point of contention between my beliefs and the beliefs everywhere around me.

Quote
I don't kill because I know that people don't like to get killed, and I know I don't like killing, so that's why it is a no brainer for me.

The times I've been attracted to other mens wives I just shrugged and said "Nope, ain't gonna do it." and went on with my life. I understood that people would get hurt, and I didn't want any part of it

Okay so then you generally gather as much information you can about a situation and use the golden rule?

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1061 on: March 30, 2014, 06:22:06 PM »

I am not assuming anything.  I have examined and tested my claims over many years.  ParkingPlaces and I are going down that road now.  Feel free to join that discussion.

But you are assuming your bible/theology is "infallible". You are assuming it in this discussion. You have started with the conclusion that is cannot be in error and that is must be true. That had lead you to confirmation bias and it is irrational.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1062 on: March 30, 2014, 06:32:25 PM »

I am not assuming anything.  I have examined and tested my claims over many years.  ParkingPlaces and I are going down that road now.  Feel free to join that discussion.

But you are assuming your bible/theology is "infallible". You are assuming it in this discussion. You have started with the conclusion that is cannot be in error and that is must be true. That had lead you to confirmation bias and it is irrational.

So when do you conclude something is a fact?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1063 on: March 30, 2014, 06:39:11 PM »

The ones having all the sex are the ones hung up on sex.  The ones that have it plastered all over bill boards, radio, television, internet and so on are the ones that are hung up on sex.  I bring it up because it's a point of contention between my beliefs and the beliefs everywhere around me.

NOPE. Being "hung up" are the people (religious people such as you and your friends) who are all butt hurt over what others do with their lives. Sex is a normal part of life and nature. In and of itself, sex does no unnecessary harm to anyone. It is by and large by mutual consent. The hung up ones are you guys who read your old dusty book and then make assumed (yes, there's that word again) and arbitrary moral judgments that you think should apply to others.

We plaster hamburgers all over billboards too. Are you against those? Because you know, factory farming does infinite more unnecessary harm on this planet than people having sex does. Again, this is an issue of your arbitrarily chosen definition of what morality is about (which I argue is wholly irrational) vs. actual morality which pertains to the minimization of unnecessary harm and the promotion of well being for conscious creatures (which you likely practice as well).

Okay so then you generally gather as much information you can about a situation and use the golden rule?

It wouldn't matter if I was using "the Golden Rule" (which btw, was around prior to your bible) or not. The reason we gather relevant information and make informed decisions about what to do in specific situations is because morality has to do with, and is about, minimizing unnecessary harm and promoting as much well being for conscious creatures as we can. If you choose to attempt to define morality is some other way then you are talking about something else - not morality - and I don't care.

Further, if you'd like to attempt to define what you think morality pertains to (i.e. - what actually makes an act moral or not) I'm all ears. Let's hear it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1064 on: March 30, 2014, 06:42:21 PM »

I am not assuming anything.  I have examined and tested my claims over many years.  ParkingPlaces and I are going down that road now.  Feel free to join that discussion.

But you are assuming your bible/theology is "infallible". You are assuming it in this discussion. You have started with the conclusion that is cannot be in error and that is must be true. That had lead you to confirmation bias and it is irrational.

So when do you conclude something is a fact?

That depends upon the claim being made. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and not just religious ones either. You, and your bible, are making extraordinary claims (such as "It's infallible!") which require more than just "I read it. I believe it, and I say so" arguments.

Consistency and intellectual honesty require you to practice the same kind of skepticism with these religious claims that you would with a fast talking salesman at your door, or as you would as an outsider of any other religion that came to your door. But you don't practice that kind of skepticism. You just believed it (started with the conclusion of this theology; i.e. - went "all in" first) and then went about interpreting everything through it. That is completely backwards, and hypocritical because you wouldn't do that with any other extraordinary claim that came knocking.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 06:52:16 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6753
  • Darwins +817/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1065 on: March 30, 2014, 06:45:45 PM »
Adultery? Why are you guys so hung up on sex?

The ones having all the sex are the ones hung up on sex.  The ones that have it plastered all over b ill boards, radio, television, internet and so on are the ones that are hung up on sex.  I bring it up because it's a point of contention between my beliefs and the beliefs everywhere around me.

Don't get commerce and morality mixed up. They are two very different things. Sex sells. America is predominately christian. It is America that all those sexy ads and programs are aimed at. Someone sees the connection, I guess.

Quote
Quote
I don't kill because I know that people don't like to get killed, and I know I don't like killing, so that's why it is a no brainer for me.

The times I've been attracted to other mens wives I just shrugged and said "Nope, ain't gonna do it." and went on with my life. I understood that people would get hurt, and I didn't want any part of it

Okay so then you generally gather as much information you can about a situation and use the golden rule?
Yes and no. I don't have to imagine myself being wronged before I decide not to wrong another. But I certainly agree with the golden rule, which has been around in one form another for thousands of years, and existed in many cultures, from Ancient China and Babylon to Rome and Greece and yes, even the bible.

Edit: fixed newbie level quoting error that I made
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 07:38:20 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1505
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Retired Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1066 on: March 30, 2014, 06:55:48 PM »
For one I cannot understand how anyone can make judgments about God's punishments with almost a complete lack of surrounding facts.

I used the bible as my source, deal with it.

Do we even share any common ground?

We are both humans, we share that.

If right now he destroyed by fire all those that practice wickedness, would that be wrong?

Define wickedness. If it is defined as rapists and criminals, sure. If it is defined as other religions and atheists, no.

Secondly, I don't need to know all those things nor anything supernatural you mention to know God exists.

Err, yes you do.
Being that its description alone is a paradox, you would need a shit load of knowledge.

And if I know God exists then all those other things are moot. 

Many have come here and said just that...
All have failed.
What makes you correct?

Do you really think you can disprove God using Genesis chapter 1?  Or by talking about a flood?  The big bang?  Evolution?  Or by bad mouthing biblical morals using Presentism?

Yes, yes i can.
Well, not ALL gods, just the christian one.

To me you are just striking the wind.

To me, you are flabbergasting (Amazed how that is a word).

Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.

Mate, this is scraping the bottom of the barrel...
Look...
A: the principals are (some cases) barbaric, burn witches, kill gays, etc.
B: all of them are primitive as shit, treat neighbors like yourself is the most stupid vague term ever...
C: most of the prinicipals in the bible can be found in earlier texts...
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2830
  • Darwins +57/-452
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1067 on: March 30, 2014, 07:03:03 PM »
C: most of the prinicipals in the bible can be found in earlier texts...

Wouldn't we expect that to be the case if God is real and created everyone to know in their heart that He is real?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1802
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1068 on: March 30, 2014, 07:30:56 PM »

The ones having all the sex are the ones hung up on sex.  The ones that have it plastered all over bill boards, radio, television, internet and so on are the ones that are hung up on sex.  I bring it up because it's a point of contention between my beliefs and the beliefs everywhere around me.

NOPE. Being "hung up" are the people (religious people such as you and your friends) who are all butt hurt over what others do with their lives.

Still wrong.  I don't care how people live their lives.  What I do care about is my children being enticed with sexual immorality because....

Quote
Sex is a normal part of life and nature.

So is AIDS, STDs, unwanted pregnancies, orphaned children, and abortion.  Put two and two together.  Sexual immorality is harmful.  If you promote sex you're going to reap these things.  It's a simple case of cause and effect.

Quote
In and of itself, sex does no unnecessary harm to anyone.

No it does not.  Sexual immorality does.

Quote
We plaster hamburgers all over billboards too. Are you against those?

Yes.

Quote
Again, this is an issue of your arbitrarily chosen definition of what morality is about (which I argue is wholly irrational) vs. actual morality which pertains to the minimization of unnecessary harm and the promotion of well being for conscious creatures (which you likely practice as well).

No, it's about what is beneficial and what is detrimental.  Sexual immorality is detrimental to society.  Biblical morality is not just pulled out of thin air.

Quote
Further, if you'd like to attempt to define what you think morality pertains to (i.e. - what actually makes an act moral or not) I'm all ears. Let's hear it.

Your definition will suffice.  Apparatantly it's our definition of "unnecessary harm and the promotion of well being" that's different.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1069 on: March 31, 2014, 01:36:00 AM »

Still wrong.  I don't care how people live their lives.  What I do care about is my children being enticed with sexual immorality because....

Your definition of what is "immoral" is completely out of whack and that is the problem. So too, no one is forcing you to take your children outside. If you choose to believe that sex is "evil" or that human physiology has some "satanic", "spiritual", "dark" mumbo jumbo attached to it (which is just nonsense anyways) then go live with the Amish and stop complaining.


So is AIDS, STDs, unwanted pregnancies, orphaned children, and abortion.  Put two and two together.  Sexual immorality is harmful.  If you promote sex you're going to reap these things.  It's a simple case of cause and effect.

This is just fear mongering (which is really all your religion spreads). Who ever said anything about "promoting sex"? Now you are just being dishonest (lying for Jesus) and misrepresenting my position. We live in a free society. Apparently you don't like that very much (because you are so damn hung up on sexuality, and your disgust of it). Eating hamburgers can cause heart decease, cancer, childhood obesity, and lots more. Driving cars causes carbon monoxide in the air (which is cancerous), and cars are dangerous. People use them as weapons all the time. Are you looking to ban those now too? You're just a bundle of contradictions. The argument you are making is also logically fallacious b/c you're trying to take exceptional cases and apply them to the whole.

Now, STDs (including AIDS) can effect married people too. I guess sex, as a whole, is just immoral then (according to your twisted logic) right?! Unwanted pregnancies aren't directly "harming" anyone either (and married people have them too!). They may be an inconvenience but most people deal with it and either have the child and do their best or allow for adoption. Again, your attempt here fails because it applies to married couples as well. Regarding abortion, married couples have them too! So you get no help there dude. So too, you will have a lot of work ahead of you to show 1) that 100 or so cells is a "person" or "soul", and 2) how a woman's choices with her body are necessarily doing harm to her or other people around her in this case.

Quote
In and of itself, sex does no unnecessary harm to anyone.

No it does not.  Sexual immorality does.

Oh, like "hamburger immorality"? There is nothing "immoral" about consenting adults having sex. It's too bad your religion has caused you to think this way because there is nothing inherently harmful there to point to. The second you point to instances where people have harmed one another, or harmed others, you are pointing to exceptional cases and not the whole.

Quote
We plaster hamburgers all over billboards too. Are you against those?

Yes.

You are against hamburgers or billboards? Are you a vegetarian? How about water? Are you against water? People have used it to drown other people in it! Should we have mandatory "H2o safety buddies"? If it's the billboard you're against, then are you against people being able to do with their property what they wish? You act as if a billboard is forcing you to buy. Are you against all advertisements? If so, please demonstrate how advertisements are harmful in general. We will need direct studies, not just hearsay or correlations.

No, it's about what is beneficial and what is detrimental.  Sexual immorality is detrimental to society.  Biblical morality is not just pulled out of thin air.

I'd like to see you prove the case that people having sex, in and of itself, is "detrimental" or harmful to others. Again, do you want to ban the use of motor vehicles? Because those can be "detrimental" as well. How about banning kitchen knives? They cut people a lot! You are attempting another logical fallacy (called the converse accident fallacy) - trying to take exceptional cases and apply them to the whole. That is irrational.

Your definition will suffice.  Apparatantly it's our definition of "unnecessary harm and the promotion of well being" that's different.

Instead of just stating that we have a disagreement why not actually state where the disagreement is? Please demonstrate how consenting adults (who are not married) having sex is somehow unnecessarily harmful to others.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 01:39:47 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +265/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1070 on: March 31, 2014, 08:15:33 AM »

Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.

Which infallible principles are you referring to; the ones that approve of slavery, the ones that tell people to kill a woman who was raped, the ones that recommend the stoning of unruly children, the ones who call vegtable gardens an abomination, or the ones that contradict other principles found within the same book?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2795
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1071 on: March 31, 2014, 08:22:38 AM »

Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.

Which infallible principles are you referring to; the ones that approve of slavery, the ones that tell people to kill a woman who was raped, the ones that recommend the stoning of unruly children, the ones who call vegtable gardens an abomination, or the ones that contradict other principles found within the same book?

Yes, all that, but who is defining these 'principles' as infalliable? The ethics in the OT and the NT is well known in other cultures and we know there is a big Babylonian influence in OT. The Babylonians had most of the ethics that the OT has so why do you think the bible is so special?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +265/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1072 on: March 31, 2014, 09:32:04 AM »

Aside from personal experience, I know God exists because no fallible human wrote all the infallible principles found in the Bible.

Which infallible principles are you referring to; the ones that approve of slavery, the ones that tell people to kill a woman who was raped, the ones that recommend the stoning of unruly children, the ones who call vegtable gardens an abomination, or the ones that contradict other principles found within the same book?

Yes, all that, but who is defining these 'principles' as infalliable? The ethics in the OT and the NT is well known in other cultures and we know there is a big Babylonian influence in OT. The Babylonians had most of the ethics that the OT has so why do you think the bible is so special?

Who? Jstwebbrowsing, per my quoting of him
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.