Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 18412 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1015 on: March 29, 2014, 03:33:51 PM »

That has to be left to the individual to determine.  A good place to start would be determining if the principles contained in it are true versus trying trying to determine how God created everything.  The Bible teaches principles to live by, not science.  It does teach other things that are important too but it's principles are infallible and are available for anyone to easily test.

HA! Listen to you contradict yourself. If it's infallible then you can't test it to find out whether or not it's infallible! That would require the principle of falsifiability. And you haven't even attempted to demonstrated how you think you know that the bible (and your Watchtower interpretation of it) is "infallible". It's just, yet again, another bald assertion with no backing. They said it, you swallowed it, and now you are regurgitating it all over the place. That's called credulity.

Just how exactly did you determine that your bible/theology is "infallible"? By what method did you use to make this judgment? Did you ever think to question this first premise?

Let's examine one.  "You must love your neighbor as yourself".  This is found in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.  I claim that if this is practiced it will lead to a happier life for you and for everyone around you.  Is this true or false? 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1016 on: March 29, 2014, 03:37:33 PM »

That has to be left to the individual to determine.  A good place to start would be determining if the principles contained in it are true versus trying trying to determine how God created everything.  The Bible teaches principles to live by, not science.  It does teach other things that are important too but it's principles are infallible and are available for anyone to easily test.

HA! Listen to you contradict yourself. If it's infallible then you can't test it to find out whether or not it's infallible! That would require the principle of falsifiability. And you haven't even attempted to demonstrated how you think you know that the bible (and your Watchtower interpretation of it) is "infallible". It's just, yet again, another bald assertion with no backing. They said it, you swallowed it, and now you are regurgitating it all over the place. That's called credulity.

Just how exactly did you determine that your bible/theology is "infallible"? By what method did you use to make this judgment? Did you ever think to question this first premise?

Let's examine one.  "You must love your neighbor as yourself".  This is found in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.  I claim that if this is practiced it will lead to a happier life for you and for everyone around you.  Is this true or false?
As an aboriginal male I have only been stereotyped by my Christian neighbors,when will they "show me the love"?
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Offline median

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1017 on: March 29, 2014, 03:53:20 PM »

That has to be left to the individual to determine.  A good place to start would be determining if the principles contained in it are true versus trying trying to determine how God created everything.  The Bible teaches principles to live by, not science.  It does teach other things that are important too but it's principles are infallible and are available for anyone to easily test.

HA! Listen to you contradict yourself. If it's infallible then you can't test it to find out whether or not it's infallible! That would require the principle of falsifiability. And you haven't even attempted to demonstrated how you think you know that the bible (and your Watchtower interpretation of it) is "infallible". It's just, yet again, another bald assertion with no backing. They said it, you swallowed it, and now you are regurgitating it all over the place. That's called credulity.

Just how exactly did you determine that your bible/theology is "infallible"? By what method did you use to make this judgment? Did you ever think to question this first premise?

Let's examine one.  "You must love your neighbor as yourself".  This is found in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.  I claim that if this is practiced it will lead to a happier life for you and for everyone around you.  Is this true or false?

100% FALSE! We should not love all of our neighbors as ourselves. YOU can go ahead and "love" the Jeffrey Dahmer's, Charles Mansons, and Al Capones of the world but you would be a complete idiot to do so. I'm sorry, but this assertion that you are making from your bible is just a "b/c it says so" fallacy. Just quoting what your bible says does absolutely nothing to demonstrate that it is "infallible". That is nonsense and irrational. Again, you are just gullible.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_Mount

Btw, in case you haven't studied it, Confucius proposed the "Golden Rule" long before your bible was around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule


« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 04:00:52 PM by median »
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Online Ataraxia

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1018 on: March 29, 2014, 03:54:48 PM »
Let's examine one.  "You must love your neighbor as yourself".  This is found in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.  I claim that if this is practiced it will lead to a happier life for you and for everyone around you.  Is this true or false?

What amazes me is that some people have to read this before the light bulb pings above their head: "Holy shit! That's a great idea! Why didn't I think of doing that before? Must be a message from god!"

Funny how lots of other people kinda instinctively work this altruistic behaviour out for themselves.

EDIT: Though taking into account what median just said, it is a generalisation that doesn't always work.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 03:56:52 PM by Ataraxia »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1019 on: March 29, 2014, 04:00:44 PM »
Median,Median,Median....of course theists should not love the likes of the people you listed,they are Atheist mass murderers.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1020 on: March 29, 2014, 04:17:30 PM »
When will Armageddon occur

I don't know.  I just know these things must occur first.

1.  The global witness work about the coming kingdom must be carried out to God's satisfaction.
2.  The remaining ones of the seed (Gen 3:15) must be chosen (the elect that will rule with Christ).
3.  There must be a very noteworthy cry of "peace and security".  However I am not clear as to whether it will be a cry as in a demand for peace and security or a cry that such has been achieved.

These things must occur before the great tribulation and #3 is the only one we can identify.  The great tribulation will culminate with Armageddon.  The great tribulation will begin with a governmental attack on religion.  I don't know the exact form this attack will take but it will lead to the destruction of all false religion, including Christendom.  It's "waters" (people) are beginning to dry up as was fortold of Babylon the Great before it's destruction.  And God's people are heeding the words "Get out of her my people".

Quote
will Jesus return with it

Jesus will lead it.  Then will be fulfilled, "but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." (Isaiah 11:4)  "The breath of his lips", that is, the Word of God.

Quote
will the dead Christians rise from burial plots to be by their rulers side(Jesus) as he had promised his early followers 2000 years ago?

The heavenly resurrection, also called the first resurrection occured shorty after Christ's return in 1914 and these all became perfect and incorruptible like Christ himself.  They are there now ruling with Christ.  Any remaining ones of the elect will not taste death but immediately will be resurrected to heavenly life.

The second, earthly, resurrection will occur after Armageddon.  All those in graves (hell) will hear his voice and come out (Jn 5:28)"  That is, the good, the bad, and the ugly, the young, and the old.  Judgment day will begin as those living work to make the earth a paradise as they learn about God in the absence of Satan, his demons, and wicked humans.  That that have part in the second resurrection will not "come to life" (be made perfect) until after the 1000 years are over.  After having been made perfect, Satan will be loosed again for a "short time" to one last time test the nations.  Those that fail will forever be destroyed.  This is second death.

Quote
When Jesus returns to make earth a paradise (as he promised) will he be able to fix the pollution problems,radioactive waste,seas of plastic?

No.  Humans will fix it under his guidance and blessings.  Keep in mind this does not mean we all go back to being primitive but it will mean the end of doing things that destroy the earth.  It is because of this destruction of his creation that the end is coming.

Quote
so 2914 will end the Reign of Satan

No.  Satan's reign comes to and end at Armageddon along with all human governments and their armies.  Jesus will then continue ruling for 1000 years, after which Satan will be loosed for a "short time".

[/quote].....you will be long dead,as the original followers are to you,long dead,but still waiting for the promise of Jesus to return in THEIR lifetime.
[/quote]

Jesus has returned.  He did so in 1914.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1021 on: March 29, 2014, 04:22:10 PM »
So how are these chosen ones different from Jesus,they obviously have not tasted death. Now can you provide proof of this 1914 incident you speak of or is it just what you have been taught?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1022 on: March 29, 2014, 04:37:47 PM »

That has to be left to the individual to determine.  A good place to start would be determining if the principles contained in it are true versus trying trying to determine how God created everything.  The Bible teaches principles to live by, not science.  It does teach other things that are important too but it's principles are infallible and are available for anyone to easily test.

HA! Listen to you contradict yourself. If it's infallible then you can't test it to find out whether or not it's infallible! That would require the principle of falsifiability. And you haven't even attempted to demonstrated how you think you know that the bible (and your Watchtower interpretation of it) is "infallible". It's just, yet again, another bald assertion with no backing. They said it, you swallowed it, and now you are regurgitating it all over the place. That's called credulity.

Just how exactly did you determine that your bible/theology is "infallible"? By what method did you use to make this judgment? Did you ever think to question this first premise?

Let's examine one.  "You must love your neighbor as yourself".  This is found in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.  I claim that if this is practiced it will lead to a happier life for you and for everyone around you.  Is this true or false?
As an aboriginal male I have only been stereotyped by my Christian neighbors,when will they "show me the love"?

I don't know.  There are a few options.  When they mature as Christians.  When they learn more understanding of scripture.  When they learn to properly love themselves.  When they learn to properly love God.  When you love them.  Or maybe never.  But they need not reciprocate for the scripture (principle) to work.  Take the story of the Good Samaritan as an example.  The story is not about someone helping you.  It's about you helping someone else, even if they despise you, as in the case of the Jews despising Samaritan's.  I assure you, that Samaritan walked away happier.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1023 on: March 29, 2014, 04:47:03 PM »

That has to be left to the individual to determine.  A good place to start would be determining if the principles contained in it are true versus trying trying to determine how God created everything.  The Bible teaches principles to live by, not science.  It does teach other things that are important too but it's principles are infallible and are available for anyone to easily test.

HA! Listen to you contradict yourself. If it's infallible then you can't test it to find out whether or not it's infallible! That would require the principle of falsifiability. And you haven't even attempted to demonstrated how you think you know that the bible (and your Watchtower interpretation of it) is "infallible". It's just, yet again, another bald assertion with no backing. They said it, you swallowed it, and now you are regurgitating it all over the place. That's called credulity.

Just how exactly did you determine that your bible/theology is "infallible"? By what method did you use to make this judgment? Did you ever think to question this first premise?

Let's examine one.  "You must love your neighbor as yourself".  This is found in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.  I claim that if this is practiced it will lead to a happier life for you and for everyone around you.  Is this true or false?

100% FALSE! We should not love all of our neighbors as ourselves. YOU can go ahead and "love" the Jeffrey Dahmer's, Charles Mansons, and Al Capones of the world but you would be a complete idiot to do so. I'm sorry, but this assertion that you are making from your bible is just a "b/c it says so" fallacy. Just quoting what your bible says does absolutely nothing to demonstrate that it is "infallible". That is nonsense and irrational. Again, you are just gullible.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_Mount

Btw, in case you haven't studied it, Confucius proposed the "Golden Rule" long before your bible was around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Loving someone doesn't mean you condone their bad behavior.  If you prefer to hate people or be indifferent that is your perogative.  I only claimed loving others brings happiness.  Prove it wrong.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1024 on: March 29, 2014, 04:59:02 PM »
Funny how lots of other people kinda instinctively work this altruistic behaviour out for themselves.

If they couldn't I'd have reason to disbelieve God's existence (Gen 1:26)

Quote
Btw, in case you haven't studied it, Confucius proposed the "Golden Rule" long before your bible was around.

Where is his proposed golden rule?  Can you quote it?



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1025 on: March 29, 2014, 05:11:44 PM »
Where is his proposed golden rule?  Can you quote it?
I hope your typing finger gets better. Here is the Wiki link Golden RuleWiki
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1026 on: March 29, 2014, 05:25:18 PM »
Funny how lots of other people kinda instinctively work this altruistic behaviour out for themselves.

If they couldn't I'd have reason to disbelieve God's existence (Gen 1:26)

Eh, how did god manage to behave altruistically before anything else living existed? Was he sharing his powers with Norse gods or something?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1027 on: March 29, 2014, 05:26:57 PM »
So how are these chosen ones different from Jesus,they obviously have not tasted death. Now can you provide proof of this 1914 incident you speak of or is it just what you have been taught?

For one, Jesus was dead and in hell (the gave) for three days before he was resurrected.  Some of the elect did die, the apostles being among them who were the first 12 of the elect.  Aside from Christ they all were in the grave until their resurrection soon after 1914.  From that time forward, any remaining of the elect have not slept in death.  That is why the apostle said, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed" (Luke 9:27)  He was speaking of those that would receive a heavenly resurrection.

And yes I can provide evidence for 1914 although this a somewhat an extensive undertaking.  There are two lines of evidence that identify 1914 as the time of Christ's return.  Bible chronology and fulfilled prophecy.  Which do you prefer?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1028 on: March 29, 2014, 05:34:22 PM »
Where is his proposed golden rule?  Can you quote it?
I hope your typing finger gets better. Here is the Wiki link Golden RuleWiki

This one?

Quote
Ancient China

  "Zi Gong asked, saying, "Is there one word that may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?" The Master said, "Is not reciprocity such a word?" – Confucius[11][12]
 "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius[13]
 

Neither of those are the golden rule.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1029 on: March 29, 2014, 05:52:42 PM »
So how are these chosen ones different from Jesus,they obviously have not tasted death. Now can you provide proof of this 1914 incident you speak of or is it just what you have been taught?

For one, Jesus was dead and in hell (the gave) for three days before he was resurrected.  Some of the elect did die, the apostles being among them who were the first 12 of the elect.  Aside from Christ they all were in the grave until their resurrection soon after 1914.  From that time forward, any remaining of the elect have not slept in death.  That is why the apostle said, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed" (Luke 9:27)  He was speaking of those that would receive a heavenly resurrection.

And yes I can provide evidence for 1914 although this a somewhat an extensive undertaking.  There are two lines of evidence that identify 1914 as the time of Christ's return.  Bible chronology and fulfilled prophecy.  Which do you prefer?
PROOF
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1030 on: March 29, 2014, 06:01:15 PM »
What I mean is I see some of you guys SPAG (project as God) and then argue there is no God because he doesn't do what you think he should do.  For example, since the Bible says the nations won't be healed until after Armageddon it does not logically follow that because God is not currently healing that he does not exist or that he does not answer prayer.  To the contrary it shows the Bible is in line with reality.  While I understand the sentiment that people want God to do some healing, things are only going to go down one way.  God's way.  Some people may not like that but that doesn't mean God is imaginary either, nor does it mean God is evil. 

Do you not know that there are two sides to every story?  God has not healed humanity.  That much is fact.  Does that mean God does not exist or does that mean you should ask "why"?  But you would only ask why if you are willing to consider what the Bible says.

You're gonna ruin the reputation of theists everywhere if you actually sit down and respond to our posts, like you did with mine. While I don't agree with anything you said, that doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong. We simply disagree. So good on you for not changing the subject or the goal posts.

But I wanted to point out that when we atheists talk about god and him not doing things we think he should (or could, or would, etc.) we are saying that knowing that there is no god (in our opinion) and that his lack of action in various matters is incredibly consistent with his lack of existence. We don't (at least most of us, I shouldn't speak for everybody) think that there is a god who is not doing our bidding. We think that there isn't a god, and he isn't doing your bidding. Or even his own bidding.

We phrase it the way we do sometimes just to try to get our point across. It may not be a good way to argue, but its fun.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1031 on: March 29, 2014, 06:05:21 PM »
Funny how lots of other people kinda instinctively work this altruistic behaviour out for themselves.

If they couldn't I'd have reason to disbelieve God's existence (Gen 1:26)

Eh, how did god manage to behave altruistically before anything else living existed?

I don't know.  Must God behave altruistically?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1032 on: March 29, 2014, 06:06:31 PM »
I don't know.  Must God behave altruistically?

Only if your god isn't a dick.
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1033 on: March 29, 2014, 06:22:53 PM »
Funny how lots of other people kinda instinctively work this altruistic behaviour out for themselves.

If they couldn't I'd have reason to disbelieve God's existence (Gen 1:26)

Eh, how did god manage to behave altruistically before anything else living existed?

I don't know.  Must God behave altruistically?

Yes, if you're suggesting that our altruistic behaviour is evidence for being made in gods image.

And the answer is god can't. If he has nothing to interact with, then he has nothing to behave altruistically towards, therefore our altruistic behaviour is not an attribute made in the image of god.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1034 on: March 29, 2014, 06:28:57 PM »
So how are these chosen ones different from Jesus,they obviously have not tasted death. Now can you provide proof of this 1914 incident you speak of or is it just what you have been taught?

For one, Jesus was dead and in hell (the gave) for three days before he was resurrected.  Some of the elect did die, the apostles being among them who were the first 12 of the elect.  Aside from Christ they all were in the grave until their resurrection soon after 1914.  From that time forward, any remaining of the elect have not slept in death.  That is why the apostle said, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed" (Luke 9:27)  He was speaking of those that would receive a heavenly resurrection.

And yes I can provide evidence for 1914 although this a somewhat an extensive undertaking.  There are two lines of evidence that identify 1914 as the time of Christ's return.  Bible chronology and fulfilled prophecy.  Which do you prefer?
PROOF

I told you what I can do.  I can't take you to heaven so that we may observe.  I can't make God thunder from a mountain.  The Bible pinpoints 1914 chronologically as the time of Christ's return.  The Bible says certain things would occur when Christ returns.  Those things are occuring.  That is why he told his followers to keep on the watch.  Do with that what you will.  If you want to examine those things more in depth then okay.  That's all I've got.

 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1035 on: March 29, 2014, 08:04:08 PM »

You're gonna ruin the reputation of theists everywhere if you actually sit down and respond to our posts, like you did with mine. While I don't agree with anything you said, that doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong. We simply disagree. So good on you for not changing the subject or the goal posts.

I appreciate this reasonableness.  And I respect your right to have your own thoughts on matters.  And I've not walked a mile in your shoes so I cannot tell you how you, or anyone else, should believe.  I can only tell what I believe and why.

Quote
But I wanted to point out that when we atheists talk about god and him not doing things we think he should (or could, or would, etc.) we are saying that knowing that there is no god (in our opinion) and that his lack of action in various matters is incredibly consistent with his lack of existence. We don't (at least most of us, I shouldn't speak for everybody) think that there is a god who is not doing our bidding. We think that there isn't a god, and he isn't doing your bidding. Or even his own bidding.

I can understand that, but on the other hand if you're going to judge the Bible God's existence then you should judge him based on what the Bible says about him.  I know there are different interpretations of things but there are also very many similarities so it's not like you have to sift through every single belief about every single thing.  And since you guys like to discuss these things and I do too, here I am.

What is strange is that we often look at the same thing but draw different conclusions about the existence of God.  Some of the very things that convince an atheist that God does not exist are the very same things that convince me that he does.

But since being here last time I do have more understanding of things and I no longer stereotype atheists.  They were my last great hurdle in that area.  I have come to learn a great truth that changed my entire oulook.  Do you want to know what it is?  You better brace for it.  Here it is.  "People are people". 

A Catholic, whom I usually strongly disagree with, taught me a lesson about the good Samaritan.  And she did so by being the good Samaritan.  This was at a time when I myself was having a crisis of faith.  It is one thing to be the Samaritan but it is entirely another to be the person laying lifeless by the side of the road.  I was passed up by Protestants of differing sorts.  I was passed up by Catholics.  I was even passed up by a Jehovah's Witness whom I begged for help from, but only stood at a distance and pointed a finger.  At a time when she might have delivered a crushing blow, this Catholic did not.

Instead she helped restore me, not to her faith, but to my own.  And she helped me to realize that good Samaritans are not my only neighbors.  Atheists are my neighbors.  Catholics are my neighbors.  Muslims are my neighbors.  You are my neighbor.  And all of my neighbors deserve my love and respect and help in any way that I can provide it.

And that is the truth of Christianity I wish to impart.  Things like creation, floods, heaven, hell, big bangs, evolution, grammatical errors need to be set aside.  I get it, we don't agree.  What needs to be examined is what the Bible says about loving one another and how we should treat one another and the benefit of those teachings.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1036 on: March 29, 2014, 08:19:16 PM »
And that is the truth of Christianity I wish to impart.  Things like creation, floods, heaven, hell, big bangs, evolution, grammatical errors need to be set aside.  I get it, we don't agree.  What needs to be examined is what the Bible says about loving one another and how we should treat one another and the benefit of those teachings.

An admirable goal. But being a good person doesn't require the bible. Biblical teachings may inspire some people to do good things, but many of us have done good things without the aid of the bible and its teachings. There are plenty of good reasons besides religious belief to do good. Religion doesn't have a lock on those incentives.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1037 on: March 29, 2014, 08:35:19 PM »
An admirable goal. But being a good person doesn't require the bible. Biblical teachings may inspire some people to do good things, but many of us have done good things without the aid of the bible and its teachings. There are plenty of good reasons besides religious belief to do good. Religion doesn't have a lock on those incentives.

PP just beat me to this. Coming from the perspective of a 44 year old atheist who grew up in a non-religious home without once picking up a Bible or ever attending a church service, I have so far managed to lead what you might refer to as a "good" or "ethical" life (at present, I think the only Commandment I have broken is "using the Lord's name in vain", although I confess I once stole a toy airplane when I was 9).

And that is the truth of Christianity I wish to impart. Things like creation, floods, heaven, hell, big bangs, evolution, grammatical errors need to be set aside.  I get it, we don't agree.  What needs to be examined is what the Bible says about loving one another and how we should treat one another and the benefit of those teachings.

The bold part is what I have to disagree with. Speaking only for myself (but I think you'll find that I'm not alone in this), I can not nor I will not ignore the horrific and sometimes downright sadistic acts the god of the Bible has perpetrated just to be able to profit from his "loving one another" message. It would be like going to Jeffrey Dahmer for cooking advice, imo.

I'm not attempting to be cute, but the analogy works.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 08:38:35 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1038 on: March 29, 2014, 08:48:57 PM »
Things like creation, floods, heaven, hell, big bangs, evolution, grammatical errors need to be set aside.

Err no.

The (non)existence of magic, genocidal maniacs making floods, pure paradise forever, pure torment forever, creation of space/time, genetic variances leading to new species, and GRAMMAR, are all bloody important topics.

If you cant prove magic, sky people, and demons, either don't talk about them again, or prove their existence. (I learnt my lesson with a specific topic...)

Just think about this for a second, if you proved magic/gods/flying pigs exist, you would become the most influential person on earth, probably winning a Nobel prize.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1039 on: March 29, 2014, 09:23:56 PM »
What needs to be examined is what the Bible says about loving one another and how we should treat one another and the benefit of those teachings.

Why do you need the bible to tell you this?
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1040 on: March 29, 2014, 09:28:07 PM »
This exchange about Russell and 1914 piqued my curiosity.  It appears the interpretation of 1914 is rather fluid depending on Watchtower writings before and after 1914.  Which version or 1914 are you supporting?

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-predictions.php
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/were-watchtower-prophecies-about-1914-fulfilled/
http://www.faithandreasonforum.com/index.asp?PageID=30&ArticleID=456

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

While there is nothing wrong with seeking outside sources I would caution against taking everything said by opposers as fact.  There is no sort of coverup.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402013530?q=1914&p=par

If you are curious about the beliefs on 1914 here is a good place to start or if you prefer I can give you a very short version of it.  I highly recommend against that.  But I am happy to try and answer any questions you may have.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=1914&p=par

My apologies for hitting the "Post" button too soon. 

With all due respect, you did not answer my question about which version of 1914 you support.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Still wondering.

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1041 on: March 30, 2014, 04:30:51 AM »
Having now come back to the forum on the morning our clocks went forward, I seem to have missed quite a bit. However, here's a continuation of something discussed last night.

Jstwebbrowsing, you were talking about the dates of the end of the world / beginning of Christ's rule etc. A more careful study of dates suggests to me that your organization has been rather carefully using dates to string people along. I see that date of 1914, originally the date when Armageddon would happen was quietly retitled as the day Christ sat on his throne - as though immaterial beings sit on anything. Since then there have been dates dangled tantalizingly close to each generation - even 2,000 was supposed to be  an end point. Although I'm sure that one can prove these dates are significant - I think you can prove more or less anything from the bible - ir appears to be a tactic of the organization to keep people promoting the religion.

Remember Harold Camping? These dates are staring to look like that.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline median

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1042 on: March 30, 2014, 11:00:09 AM »

Loving someone doesn't mean you condone their bad behavior.  If you prefer to hate people or be indifferent that is your perogative.  I only claimed loving others brings happiness.  Prove it wrong.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are attempting to use the word "love" in a manner that smuggles in your theology through the backdoor (begging the question). Loving someone also doesn't mean that you: condone slavery (Exodus 21), command the slaughtering of women and children (and ripping open their wombs - Hosea 13/1 Samuel 15), and command unruly children and homosexuals to have their heads brutally smashed open with rocks (Duet 21/Lev 20). And yet you people have the nerve to go door-to-door preaching "peace", that we shouldn't fight wars or hurt anyone? What absolute hypocrisy.

Psalm 137:9 -  How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

Your own "Jehovah" thing (which is not real in any sense) violates it's own rules and is self contradictory. Somehow you think it's our job to love our neighbors (whatever that means), but your alleged deity can condone beating slaves, killing infants in the womb, and slaughter the entire planet. And you think that's "loving"? I'm sorry you have decided to trade your rational mind for religious credulity and gullibility.

Luke 19:17 - 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Love your enemies? Be "Christ-like"? No. Even your own contradictory book shows otherwise.

Just remember that all of the spin and rationalizing you are about to do is because you first ASSUMED that your bible, and your theology on it, are "infallible". You started with your conclusion (at the outset) and that is the problem. It's called confirmation bias and it is stopping you from seeing the direct contradictions and flaws within your belief system.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 11:07:29 AM by median »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1043 on: March 30, 2014, 01:13:52 PM »
And that is the truth of Christianity I wish to impart.  Things like creation, floods, heaven, hell, big bangs, evolution, grammatical errors need to be set aside.  I get it, we don't agree.  What needs to be examined is what the Bible says about loving one another and how we should treat one another and the benefit of those teachings.

An admirable goal.  But being a good person doesn't require the bible. Biblical teachings may inspire some people to do good things, but many of us have done good things without the aid of the bible and its teachings. There are plenty of good reasons besides religious belief to do good. Religion doesn't have a lock on those incentives.

I do not want to suggest that people of all sorts don't do good or that belief in God is the only reason to do good things.  And I can only speak for myself but my faith in God has had a large impact on my desire to do good.  But it's a lot more than "I need to do good because God said so."  It's more along the lines of Christianity helps me identify all the other reasons for doing good, including, but in addition to because God says so.

I always ask, "why did God say so"?.  Is what God said truly the best way?  I know you don't believe in God but please bare with me.  I cannot help but refer to him as a real person.  For me, I have always found God's reasoning on matters to be very satisfying.  Some things are obvious.  We mostly all agree that murder is bad.  That's a no brainer.  Stealing?  Bad.  Lieing (baring false witness against your neighbor)?  Bad.  No Bible is needed.  But at other times the morals of people are different than the Bible.  Let's take something I think we are likely to have fewer disagreements about, or possibly even agree on.

What about adultery?  In theory it's considerded bad but in practice it is generally acceptable, at least in large portions of the world.  God has said adutery is detestable to him and those that practice it will not inherit the kingdom of God.  What about you?  Is adultery detestable or acceptable to you?  Is it acceptable under certain circumstances?

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10